Poll on Reconciling Faith and Sexuality

[amayesd]

For those interested in participating ... How have you reconciled your faith with your sexuality (or with your acceptance of homo/bi-sexuality if your are heterosexual)? Please choose the one most significant response to the question below.

Please TITLE your response selection that closest represents how you reconciled your faith and sexuality using one of the selections below ... and follow of course with your own explanation.

_______

1. No Conflict: I have never had any conflict between my understanding of my faith and my sexuality.

2. No Reconciliation: I have not reconciled my faith and my sexuality. It still provides great anxiety for me since i am a "practicing homo/bi-sexual".

3. Grace: Homosexuality may be a sin, but God's Grace covers me.

4. Interpretation: New Biblical insights into the context and content of various Biblical passages regarding sexuality helped me to understand that homosexuality is not against God's will and infact may be what God intended for my life.

5. Compartmentalization: My faith has little to do with my sexuality so I see no conflict between my life of faith and my sexual orientation.

6. Exception: I am a faithful believer ... devout in everyway. My sexuality, while being unacceptable to God, is my one apparent weakness ... the thorn in my side.

7. Spirituality: The inner voice of my own spiritual practice has brought harmony to my faith and sexuality. I do not feel the need for "correct" Biblical interpretation.

8. Self-Denial: My faith is uncomfortable with my sexuality ... therefore I do not pursue any intimate relationships or sexual activity.

9. Love: Love is the primary message of my faith as demonstrated in scripture. Therefore love of myself and authentic love of an intimate partner are in full keeping with my faith.

10. No Sex: While I accept myself as homo/bi-sexual and find it fully acceptable to my faith to be "in love" and in relationship with a person of the same gender, I do not "have sex" with the person of the same gender who I love because I understand that sexual behavior (not the affectional behavior) is a sin.

11. Faith Community: My faith community, family, and/or friends are the most significant representation of God's love and acceptance in my faith life. Their acceptance of me as a homo/bi-sexual enabled me to experience God's full embrace of my sexuality and to thus fully embrace myself within my faith.

12. Oppression: God is clearly on the side of the oppressed. As someone who felt persecuted and poor in spirt because of my struggle with my sexuality, I feel God's loving arms wrapped around me and saying its ok.

13. Divorce: Faith was unable to be reconciled or to adequately address my sexuality. Therefore I no longer consider myself a person of faith.

14. Other?

[Zerbie]

Very interesting poll. Most accurate response here is a #1 (no conflict) crossed with #7 (the inner voice of my spirituality).

I have never not felt that inner voice. Never doubted it. As a small small child I remember learning what people thought of 'homosexuals" and I still remember my inner thoughts verbatim the moment I found out about gay men, in the context of them supposedly being terrible people: "Oh! I know exactly what these men are!! I understand this better than the grown ups do. Homosexuals are very close to what I am." (I'm bi) "Their love is spiritual. . .I hope they remember that."

There was also a powerful dream later that day which really, really reinforced my feelings.

[Jamie McDaniel]

I grew up Southern Baptist, so my eventual reconciling my sexuality with my spirituality was a journey (an epic journey from this boy's point of view.) :agree:

Looking back, I would say it went like this:

From puberty(?) to age 23
8. Self-Denial: My faith is uncomfortable with my sexuality ... therefore I do not pursue any intimate relationships or sexual activity.

Only I would add that my self-denial was so strong I didn't allow myself to believe I was actually "one of those people." Sometimes heterosexuals have a hard time understanding how that could happen, but coming out to yourself is usually the first step.

Age 23 - 24
6. Exception: I am a faithful believer ... devout in everyway. My sexuality, while being unacceptable to God, is my one apparent weakness ... the thorn in my side.

I was also completely closeted during this period.

On November 7, 1998 I purchased Stranger at the Gate from Amazon so it would be sure to arrive in a brown box. :rolleyes:

Age 25
3. Grace: Homosexuality may be a sin, but God's Grace covers me.

Out of the closet to my Southern Baptist friends in 2000!

Age 26
4. Interpretation: New Biblical insights into the context and content of various Biblical passages regarding sexuality helped me to understand that homosexuality is not against God's will and infact may be what God intended for my life.

I become involved with Soulforce and am reading lots of books on homosexuality, the Bible, and Christianity.

Age 27 - present

I would say that #7 (Spirituality), #9 (Love), #11(Faith Community), and #12 (Oppression) had a contributing role.

For that past four or five years, it has been clear to me that gay, lesbian, bisexual, and trangender people are accepted and loved by God and that the Spirit is the prime mover in this struggle for GLBT equality.

[SolInvictus]

#4 & #10:

The latter because why I know there is nothing wrong w/ me; I'm still somewhat afraid of being intimate w/ another person - strange, huh?

Its not the social perception or conservative stigma that prevents it, but my fundamentalist upbringing basically scared me of having sex period & seeing it as "sinful."

Mentally & Spiritually, I know sex is not sinful, but beautiful & natural. What prevents me then? I don't know - possible subconscious fear?

#4 - Yes, the Bible has been misinterpreted by conservatives & I believe God created me & all of us in the LGBT community "just as we are."

Anyway, I do not want to be celebate my whole life, and I am dating (nothing serious though)... Any thoughts/opinions?

[pnggrad79]

#4 definitely. I grew up a strict Southern Baptist, and when I knew I was gay, I felt like God hated me and would send me to hell for something I begged Him to take away from me. It was like He cursed me with this and then was going to make me pay for it. That is not our God!!! When I began going to a gay church, I went in with the attitude of "Prove this to me". I needed someone to prove to me that God could love me, bless me, and empower me as a lesbian. They did or rather God did. Through a lot of reading and studying, I saw that all my misinformation was just that-misinformation. I was led all my life by people who didn't and still don't know any better and who put God in a box, and judge me when they have their own problems to deal with, much less who I sleep with. I chose to step out in God's grace and mercy for my sins, and embrace who I was created to be- a victorious Christian who happens to be a lesbian. My family may never come around, but for the first time in my life, I am free and that is what Christ came to do, to set us free.:)

[schoolboi]

Like Jamie my response has changed over the years. At the moment I identify most with 4, 7, 9, 11, & 12. I also have to add 14.

14: Defiance: I don't really care what God or anyone else thinks. I am spiritual and I am gay whether they or even myself likes it or not.

[Big-Cheese]

Leaving the forum. Thank you all for friendship.
Blessings

[Zerbie]

I keep editing this post because I am completely and utterly confused by internet technology! Sorry everyone!!!!!! ROFLMAO!

[paul_g]

I'm not a gay, but when I was 14 I was bisexual(or I had gay instincts), but then and now I'm still:

#6,#8,#10 :)

#14:God is the most important person in my life...and I'm ready to sacrifice my sexuality for Him.I found peace with myself when I found peace with God.My wish(for myself) is wrote in Numbers 15:39-41.

Life on this earth is very short(about 80 years), so I may not be happy here, but I will be there in the Kingdom of Heaven......

I accepted all my GLBT friends as they are.

God bless you all!

[revtj]

I grew up being a southern Presbyterian Christian and this was a family thing, like many Catholics I have talked to, you just ARE and it's not negotiable. I suppose it's supported by the Presbyterian belief in "once saved, always saved," meaning you can't lose your salvation even if you sin.

I can resonate with almost every situation selection 1-13 looking back at my development. Number 1 wins out mostly.

I was studying to be a Presbyterian minister at Covenant College when I (once again) sought Christian counseling to understand why God would "afflict" me with homosexuality when I was certain God had called me to ministry.

The counselor told me these things I recall (it was 27 years ago!)

1. Masturbation is not a sin. He actually handed me the Bible and asked me to show him where it was listed as a sin. To his credit, this lifted an enormous burden of guilt from my soul.

2. The usual neo-Freudian crap about needing to bond with a male father figure to somehow cross the bridge into heterosexuality and make God happy.

3. A curse: He said if I dared to act on my sexual thoughts & feelings for men I would descend into a world without God, "reprobation," and that I would end up sick, diseased and in the gutter. Funny, Reformed thought suddenly excludes the homosinner, making us the only Calvinists who could actually lose our salvation.

I left the college in 1980 with an A.A. in Bible and abandoned plans for ministry. I wandered awestruck into the world of disco & homosex, and found myself. Within 2 years I had met the boyfriend of my dreams and we settled into a 7 yr relationship. Praise God I was in a monagamous relationship while AIDS was being discovered and understood.

I turned my back on the church and considered THEM to be the ones who were reprobate-- to dare to tell any of God's children they could control God's parameters of grace. As I see it now, they were the ones who had turned their backs on me and all God's gay children.

I continued to study religion, theology & philosphy voraciously and graduated with a B.A. in Religion & Philosophy. I never felt that I did not know & love God or that God did not know & love me. I decided it was a deeply personal relationship that no one else could help or hinder.

In 1992-3, I went through some deep grief and pain when the man I was dating and madly infatuated with died suddenly, followed 2 months later by the death of my father (with whom I had reconciled fully), in a car accident.

I returned to the Presbyterian Church. After all, these were "my people" no matter what, weren't they? The experience of worship re-connected me with the little boy inside who remembered every piece of the liturgy, every hymn, and it was very healing on a personal level.

I remember one Sunday looking out on the congregation and seeing people and families I had known for years. I knew which men had had affairs, which ones were drunks, which ones were secretly homo...I knew which women had lots of family money to keep their hubands tame, which ones slept around or had skeltons in their closets...I knew which children were wild and crazy and which ones were probably going to turn out gay. How ridiculous, I thought, to think that I'm not good enough for these people just because I'm gay!

But they tried to fire the organist when he got caught with a gay magazine. Meanwhile the denomination continued to drop the gavel on the side of homophobia, especially with regard to ordination. I stayed long enough to support the organist before he died of AIDS and then I left and joined the Unitarian Universalists.

I still have the letter the Presbyterian church sent me which says something to the effect that my name had been deleted from the rolls of the saints. Heresy has its price but, oh how sweet, and how would the orthodox define themselves without us?!

I was convinced of God's call on my life and chose a Midwestern UCC seminary that had already gone several years in welcoming gay students. I left the UUs in 2000 and was ordained UCC in 2004.

I practice Brahmacharya which means I even get to check item 10. Do I get a prize? :rolleyes:

One last point to make...the reason I appreciated Mel White's article "Why We Can't Wait...For this Debate to End" is because I am tired of trying to justify myself to straight people. I share this too-long post today in case it may help a gay christian who is struggling. But I am finished trying to explain to straight people that I am not defective, a reprobate or an abomination. SO...Mr. Amaysed...if you're collecting research for Moody Bible Institute or something, you do not have my permission to use one single word of my testimony written here.

[Rubyfruit Angel]

I have yet to reconcile my faith and my sexuality. But I've reconciled my faith and other things:

My faith and being an anime fan, my faith and being Childfree and my faith and being a feminist.

One day, I hope to reconcile my faith and sexuality as well. But I'm 19 now, and things like this take time.

[Vanessa White]

What I like about this thread is the idea that many of us have gone through, or are presently, stages/transitions of how, if we have yet, reconciled faith and sexual orientation. I really enjoy and appreciate the different life stories that we see here. For me, I would say that initially in my coming out process several years ago, I was best described as 14-other, specifically, leaving the structure of the Catholic church because I felt angry, betrayed, and ignored by it and many of the members of it. I never felt unloved by God, just unloved by the church and its members. I would now consider myself to be a combination of 4-interpretation, and 9-LOVE, this above all else. To me, love is what it is all about, in regard to my church (Methodist), my family (partner and daughter), my work and personal life, my spirituality, my care for human kind. Love of my God, and my love for my fellow persons is what motivates me almost every moment of my life. I have never felt unloved by God, no matter if the issue was sexual orientation, or feeling alone, or grieving the death of a loved one. The love goes on and on......Vanessa:love:

[pineywoods]

1 and 11 i am the son of an assembly of god minister she taught about jesus love first, the rest of the hatred bounced off --jeff

[NonLemming]

"I am tired of trying to justify myself to straight people." -revtj

I do like your responses revtj.

I grew weary of trying to use logic to justify myself to anyone several years ago. I dismissed the church, not the individuals who make it up, but the organized religion of it all. While all world religions claim to be "inspired", etc. and they may be, I realized that there was not only one door. I opted for focusing on my relationship with my Creator and decided that the man-made religions were not for me. They are for others and many of those faiths keep good people in check. But so many of these faiths condone hatred and a collective "clubbiness" that I decided not to pay my membership dues any longer. That was the single best decision I've made thus far along my journey.

Everyone is on a different path, and I cannot walk another's path for them (and vice versa), but I am a better person for unloading the baggage I was carrying so long ago.

[revtj]

Non, thanks!

I like your posts too and I value & respect your struggle with organized religion. It was a very long road for me to come back to the church. There are days when I remember that scene in the movie Romero where the governor says to him, "The church is a whore, spreading her legs to the highest bidder." Too true most of the time.

The 2000 year history of the church is more of a confession of sin from which I am called to repent daily than it is much else. But there are breakthrough moments, sometimes days, and there are good people that I cling to in hopes of an emerging church...

[SolInvictus]

My life has changed over the last few months in unexpected ways...so I would say #7 now. Spiritually and physically, I am at peace with my sexual orientation & religious beliefs: nothing is wrong w/ me or any other LGBT person - we are blessed by God!

[Montanna]

My coming out experience showed me that what I was feeling was natural. Consequently, I believe that God made me this way and has a plan for my life. After joining a church, about 4 years ago, my understanding of scripture interpretation has changed. Recently, I read a book by Jack Rogers called Jesus, The Bible, and Homosexuality: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church. In the book, in the chapter titled A Pattern of Misusing the Bible to Justify Opression he discusses how the Bible was used to opress African Americans and women. By the time he gets to the way it is used against homosexuals today, the pattern is very obvious. After reading it, I feel relieved that someone finally put in words what I know to be true in my heart. God Bless him.

[BruceChris]

I believe that Christianity, and I would hope all religions, exist to bring us the message of God's love. I guess that is my definition of a worthwhile religion. I also believe that each of us is a unique blending of male and female qualities. There is no such thing as pure maleness or pure femaleness. I am very fond of www.bodieslikeours.org/content/view/214/103 -- Dead Link
as a resource for helping us to understand some of the anatomical and genetic variations. The psychological and spiritual aspects of identity and orientation are subtle and many, and don't fit into neat categories either.

I am lucky to belong to a small, very liberal church, majority GLBT but not
MCC, which fosters the spiritual growth of all of it's members.

[ExgayBiz]

The problem is there is no thus saith the lord saying homosexuality is acceptable.

My coming out experience showed me that what I was feeling was natural. Consequently, I believe that God made me this way and has a plan for my life. After joining a church, about 4 years ago, my understanding of scripture interpretation has changed. Recently, I read a book by Jack Rogers called Jesus, The Bible, and Homosexuality: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church. In the book, in the chapter titled A Pattern of Misusing the Bible to Justify Opression he discusses how the Bible was used to opress African Americans and women. By the time he gets to the way it is used against homosexuals today, the pattern is very obvious. After reading it, I feel relieved that someone finally put in words what I know to be true in my heart. God Bless him.

[Joe Brummer]

There is also nothing saying is isn't okay! People just like to misuse the good book to say what they want to say, not what god wants to say.

[Montanna]

Here is an interesting mental exercise. I tell you a piece of information about a person. You tell me what you know about the person just from what I have said. OK, here's the information: The person is heterosexual.

Here is another point of view, which I agree with. But Jack Roberts puts it well. "The acceptance of people who are homosexual is grounded in the central message of Scripture as interpreted through the lens of Jesus' life and ministry."

The Lord didn't make many "this specifically is ok" statements. But the big "this you do" ones are about loving God, each other, and our enemies.

Thanks for your input.

Montanna

[awediot]

Lets see...

What you know about this (heterosexual) person...

They breath, blink, beat some blood, eat, drink, sleep, pee, poop, think of love, don't like pain, have or had a mom and dad, like at least one animal, one song, and think life should be better before they have to leave it... Thats basically all I know.

Not sure about exactly how and why homos are seen the way we are. I can't help but wonder just how real and big the influence of Christianity actually are sometimes, both across the planet and through out changing times... ( I'll put more thought into it later but I gotta pee right now)


The problem is there is no thus saith the lord saying homosexuality is acceptable.

Though the Lord and the little voice in my head can sound confusingly similar (its actually the little guy just mimicking), the Lord has said as much, clearly and repeatedly, to me and others. How the Bible can be so easily turned against us, He's pretty quiet about... but I have some ideas. I respect the respect you have for the Good Book. We likely agree that it is Divinely inspired and protected. Now, if it has been either intentionally tweaked or accidental misunderstood over time is another conversation... May I ask if you are a literalist, and/or believe in its inerrency? ...This is not a trap of a question, as I am the last one willing or able to debate the details. Just curious how you (and others) see it...

[Venari]

I guess despite what I feel I can look at scripture and argue homosexuality being a sin and not being a sin.

I having been in a long term relationship I know it felt right and we loved each other. But I pause and ask no matter how right I feel does that make it right? Or am I telling my self that it is right to feel better about my self.

To boil it down; I know that no matter what there is a God that loves me and a Savior who died for me. I know when I am in the darkest times in my life I can keep my eyes on Him and His love will be with me always.

So it comes down to living my life as the moment tells me I should live for God.

If you’re confused I guess that is how I feel.

-Venari

[NonLemming]

There is also nothing saying is isn't okay! People just like to misuse the good book to say what they want to say, not what god wants to say.

Or what people who have geopolitical power want to say. I have a hard time believing that God has written books on all of its plantets.

But it's a sweet idea.

[Mia14]

I was very very religious as a child, which made me have a hard time admitting my sexuality to myself. When I reached a place where I realized I would never change and that I was actually happy with women, I realized that my Catholic church would never accept me.

I turned away from the church before it had a chance to reject me because I was afraid of what would happen. I've been exploring many other religions for a while now and still haven't found any particular one that fits me well enough to stay. I do believe in God - or whatever one calls that higher power - and I worship in my own personal way. :pray:

My number 14 would be Fear of Rejection because it drove me away from the church so strongly that I don't know if I could ever return to it and feel comfortable. It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with his people.

[awediot]

I have a hard time believing that God has written books on all of its plantets.

Me too. But maybe they didn't need one.:confused:

...and, back to the purpose of this thread...

It is very true that it can change as we grow, or slide back or shift off to the side. Though the term, 'ulp, "compartmentalization" (#5), kicks in that "I am not a Number!" defense, nor Tupperware away cherry pickins at my whim, I truly see no significance to God's judgment toward sexual 'orientation' itself. But the phrase "my sexuality", also used in that sentence, encompasses more than just my orientation. Gayness to me has nothing to do with it... Which is #7 as well. Which I'm comfortable with.

[ExgayBiz]

You are wrong God call it un-natural. It also fall in under fornication and that is wrong.

There is also nothing saying is isn't okay! People just like to misuse the good book to say what they want to say, not what god wants to say.

[ExgayBiz]

There are many verses that says it is wrong. I know you already know there verses I am refering to

[ExgayBiz]

There is also nothing saying is isn't okay! People just like to misuse the good book to say what they want to say, not what god wants to say.

God did say it is unnatural. God also said fornication is wrong.

God also did not say a child molerster is wrong in any verse. God never said sniffing cocaine is wrong either in any verse.

We all know it is wrong.

[Rick336]

My response is #1. I have never had any conflict between my sexuality and my relationship with God.

[awediot]

God did say it is unnatural. God also said fornication is wrong.
God also did not say a child molerster is wrong in any verse. God never said sniffing cocaine is wrong either in any verse.
We all know it is wrong.

If by fornication you mean sex outside of marriage, true, that is stated. Though "marriage" itself is a line far from well defined in the Bible. And of course, taking advantage of the innocent and indulging chemical corruption of the mind and body is self evidently unhealthy... One thing that trips us all up, is that sin is not arbitrary. I have always been able to identify and link the damaging results of sinning. Homosexuality is an exception to that rule however.

In another thread I asked the question: Why is _________ a sin? When fornication, drunkeness, thievery, deception, killing etc. are inserted in that blank, the person asking the question looks quite mad if they cannot see the consequences of those actions. That is untrue when homosexuality fills in the blank. There are no automatic negative consequences. The inference of promiscuity, drug addiction, resulting disease and general misery are the result of pain inflicted by society, not naturally and unavoidably occurrences associated directly with the action... Sins make sense, even if one had never heard of the Bible or its God. Homosexuality does not share the same qualities... Why, other than someone said God said, do you think it is a sin?

[ExgayBiz]

If you can show a verse in the Bible that hints that homosexuality is ok, I will believe you. If we are seeking God's will, we seek thus saith the lord not man's opnions

If by fornication you mean sex outside of marriage, true, that is stated. Though "marriage" itself is a line far from well defined in the Bible. And of course, taking advantage of the innocent and indulging chemical corruption of the mind and body is self evidently unhealthy... One thing that trips us all up, is that sin is not arbitrary. I have always been able to identify and link the damaging results of sinning. Homosexuality is an exception to that rule however.

In another thread I asked the question: Why is _________ a sin? When fornication, drunkeness, thievery, deception, killing etc. are inserted in that blank, the person asking the question looks quite mad if they cannot see the consequences of those actions. That is untrue when homosexuality fills in the blank. There are no automatic negative consequences. The inference of promiscuity, drug addiction, resulting disease and general misery are the result of pain inflicted by society, not naturally and unavoidably occurrences associated directly with the action... Sins make sense, even if one had never heard of the Bible or its God. Homosexuality does not share the same qualities... Why, other than someone said God said, do you think it is a sin?

[awediot]

ExGayBiz, those verses that come to mind are more general assurances that I am loved, and having repented, am forgiven. As a young man, I repented for homosexual acts that I had not done yet. I repented for thoughts that God never lifted a finger to ease. I repented for lieing to and using women as props, deceiving my family and friends. And it only made me lonelier, and gayer. And more suicidal... If God must forgive me for playing the cards He Himself has dealt me, so be it. I have given up trying to do what others tell me God wants me to do, and have grown enough to just listen to Him. If I am wrong, my sincerity and years of prayerful effort to discover and correct that wrongness, to be fair, ought to count for something in Gods eyes. If it doesn't, I have no desire to spend eternity with such a being... I do not care if you believe me or not. The One I care about assures me He does. And it is not merely man's opinion. As you can see, I take that with a grain of salt, even when it agrees with me.

Please answer my question above if you can...

[keltic63]

If you can show a verse in the Bible that hints that homosexuality is ok, I will believe you. If we are seeking God's will, we seek thus saith the lord not man's opnions

in context, and in valid, reliable interpretation, can you show that homosexuality is not ok?

All the "thus saith the Lord's" are for a specific time, place, culture. Many lessons can be drawn from them for us today, but not all can be equally applied. even those who wish to condemn homosexuality based on certain verses, choose to ignore other verses that are nearby, as well as verses in remote places that no one chooses to follow today.

as an example: 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 talks about women covering their heads or cutting their hair. it also mentions that men should not have long hair. Does anyone follow this scripture today? why not?

[Daniel]

Yes....I'm making a pun in the title. And yes. I am a 7.

I grew up Hungarian Reformed- the name tells you the history- Catholics Reformed. Then, during my adolescence I was Assemblies of God- quite fundamental in fact- Spoke in Tongues with the best of them. Later, after coming out in my late 20's, I swam in the waters of meditation and Eastern Philosophy. Read a great deal. Found my way in the winding and twisting Path that lies within each of us and found much wisdom in the works of the Saints, Gnostics and Desert Fathers and many other Mystics.

They tread paths that lie hidden in plain sight.

Now, many years later, I cannot hear the words of fundamentalists without hearing a babble of sounds. It sounds all tinny to these ears now more accustomed to Sweeter Musick.

The gay part? Well. I thought I would die and split apart when I realized that I really was gay- I thought that Love could not love me- I was so very trained to think that you see. Love was silent on the matter only because I was making a god-awful noise. It was only after I learned about stopping all that chatter that I learned what Love had to say in its Still Small Wordless Whisper.

[tdogg]

If you can show a verse in the Bible that hints that homosexuality is ok, I will believe you. If we are seeking God's will, we seek thus saith the lord not man's opnions

The Bible doesn't contain any versus regarding the following practices which I engage in - so are they sinful?

Work my state job
Drive a car
Go to the movies, out to eat, on vacations
?? Have a pet ??
Ride my horse (any examples of a WOMAN riding a HORSE?)
Wear pants
Eat chocolate cake and ice cream
Have a TV, stereo (listen to recorded music), computer
Call someone on the telephone

I could go on and on but you ought to see the point by now. Spirituality, sin and salvation are very personal issues that are between God and the individual, and those 2 only. The only person who knows my heart is myself and my God. Not any friends, framily or you or anyone else. Why do some people who call themselves Christians insist on cleaning everyone else's 'house' up and forget about their own. If each person took care of their own 'house' and their own relationship with God and let everyone else do the same, what a wonderful world that would be.

Same old arguments, they don't hold up, we (the GLBT community) must push our 'agenda' (if you will/must call it that) which is nothing more than equal rights protected under our country's constitution and the ability to live our life like anyone else without fear of violence or having our rights taken away - we must push this because of people who feel we are less than equal, less than human, less than anyone God could love or save. Jesus says his salvation is sufficient for us/me/you. Isn't that enough for you? Or is that particular verse a lie?

Between me and my Lord - He has blessed me with acceptance of who I am, who He created me to be, acceptance of myself by myself and acceptance of myself by Him. I thank Him that I do not need acceptance by any other human being, that my eternal destination is not determined by any other human being, that my life is not dictated by any other human being, that no other human being has the authority to determine what is sin or not sin in my life or what the status of my heart is. You are right, I seek God's will and not your opinion (or that of any other human being) in my life. Which is how I am able to accept myself as a Lesbian who is also a Christian.

If what you say is true Exgay Biz, then I can point to so many versus that can be perceived as downright lies. That is tragic. If you can't see that, then perhaps you don't really know the Bible that well. If you are truly interested in constructive dialogue with those of us here, why not join in various other threads where we can discuss a variety of subjects (say for instance, what pets do you have, what music do you listen to, etc.)
Can anyone come up with something new????? SSDD...

[Zerbie]

Hey Tdogg, but everyone knows chocolate cake and ice cream are sinful!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tdogg]

Is that why it taste so darn good????!!!! ;)

[Eugene]

I'm not sure that the language of #13 describes me (at least yet), but in the sense that I am so far removed from the evangelicalism in which I once lived and thought and acted, #13 approximates my experience. I still pray; I still love Jesus. And yet none of my straight evangelical friends would consider me a Christian. And I so do not identify with the liberal, pluralistic Christianity/mysticism at the "inclusive" church I tried attending (and which seems to pervade the "gay Christian" community). I consider myself more of a rationalist.

In any event, I am comfortable with what I have always been. And I don't want to go back to the state of self-loathing, loneliness and struggle that I experienced for the 30+ years of my youth. I just commit myself to God and His mercy. That's not very conclusive, but that's where I live.

[Lydia]

In the past, it was a combination of #'s 2, 3, and 8.

Now I'm closer to #'s 11, 12. And 14: God doesn't make mistakes.

[Zerbie]

Well - thought this whole thread, arguments and all, might be interesting to read again.

[zorrosdad]

No Conflict and Spirituality,

I don't believe there was ever much of a conflict in this area for me. I knew in my heart that who I was was Okay by God. I was always more concerned about the opinion and reaction of those around me. Being a Catholic there is thiss little clause about "it" being between you and God. It's your own conscience you have to deal with. If you don't believe it to be a sin then it is not a sin for you. Well, I never believed it to be a sin. How could it be? It was/is about love between two adults. That part was easy for me. The more difficult thing for me was dealing with the opinion/reaction of others but after my mother and father rejected me there wasn't much concern about that either. I mean after the people who I assumed would love you/me the most and forever turned me out how could anyone else really hurt me? The biggest struggle of my life was finding a way to reconcile my open life as a Gay man in a commited relationship with life in the church. That went on for years. Some accepted it and some rejected it. I never became very involved in the church because of it. I even joined the Episcopal church in the attempt to become more fully included in the life of the church. The priest and his wife, who I thought were my firends, allowed me to become extremely involved. I was even on the path to the priesthood, which was a life long desire. Then I discovered that I was simply a pet project. They, he really, had no real intention of stepping out and putting his career on the line for me. So, I have recently gone back to the Catholic church satisfied at the path the journey has taken me. I have learned a great deal. I am more spiritual than ever before, more fulfilled and closer to God. I thrive on the ritual every Sunday, well almost every Sunday, Mass isn't everything. I have discovered a new path and the True God who doesn't care where you worship or if you worship or what others think of you or what you think of God. Life is about living and growing and gaining experience as well as making choices. Every choice leads in a new direction and a new experience that is just what you need whether you know it or not.

So, go with God and enjoy the sex. It doesn't last forever!

Trent ;)

[Deb]

I have read this thread a number of times. Every time, this list stares at me like a testament of my fragmented, chaotic struggle for peace. Each time I think I will read through and pick a number that best describes how I’ve dealt with my Christianity and sexuality. But, I just can’t. After all these years, I am no more near a resolution then I ever have been. My head is getting it, but at 4 in the morning I wake with a horrid feeling that I can’t bare. I expect my feelings will change as I keep pressing in this direction, but it is so odd and I have fought it for so long, it feels like a nightmare come to life. I don’t know how to live like this.
In a few prior decades some years back striving to accept my sexuality resulted in a moral meltdown. My relationship with God can’t bare a moral melt down and I just don't want to do that again. Then there was the decade of openly being ‘gay’ and living with a partner. That cost a lot in terms of family members. When she died after 10 years of being together it was easy to ~sigh~ ... "repent"... and get right with God. Go through some deliverance and yada yada yada... until I was pretty convinced myself that I had been, after all these years, healed. I even ventured out and allowed myself to have a best friend. Well, sure I don’t have to say what happen there. I felt completely defeated. How at 54 could this happen to me again? I made a decision to stop the fight and accept who I am, and have always been. Once and for all I must make peace with myself.
Reading the articles on this and other sites makes me feel better. I have an idea that as I find reconciliation so I can be at peace with myself, my life will change. I don’t know if I can tolerate it. I guess a more accurate thing to say here is my life changed and it is so overwhelming I must do something to find peace.
I am miserable.
This is not my life plan.
I’m disappointed with life.
I don’t see a good resolution here. But there are 3 things in my life that I have come to realize are unchangeable. 1. My children came from my body and will always be my own darling children, 2. I believe God came to the earth in the person of Jesus Christ and gave himself to redeem mankind and lastly, 3. with out a shadow of a doubt, I have always desired to be with females and not males. So, my task at hand is to somehow, by the mercy of God, bring these three aspects of my life truth into harmony. It sounds simple enough. I just can’t stand this horrible feeling in my chest and don’t have a clue how to make it go away. But I have determined to not go back anymore into a state of personal denial. I’m done with that. thanks for listening.

[ladyinred]

My mother never rejected me.. This is what she said in fact.. "How can a parent reject their own child and not love them.". She couldn't understand parents that behaved that way..

[Pablo Rafael]

Once and for all I must make peace with myself...
I have determined to not go back anymore into a state of personal denial. I’m done with that. Thanks for listening.

Deb,

If you are like me then making peace with yourself is critical. Both of us are in the middle age years. To have a change of mind and heart might be harder for us than for those younger. My journey has gone through the following stages.

1. Didn't even know what being gay meant.
2. Knew I was attracted to men but didn't think I was gay.
3. Knew I was gay but wouldn't admit it to myself.
4. Admitted to myself I was gay, but knew it was evil.
5. Came to the realization that being gay was OK with me and with God. (At about age 40.)

I had prayed for years that God would make me straight. When I gave up on that, I prayed that he would help me to ignore my sexuality. I first came to question the "evilness" of being gay after reading Mel White's Stranger at the Gate. It caused me to search other books and resources. I still wasn't convinced that I could reconcile me belief in the Bible with my homosexuality.

I decided that I would leave it up to God. I wanted to believe that I was OK and that God loved me exactly how I was. I asked Him to show me what He wanted from me in life. I asked Him to let me know what path to take. I was going to let go of my ideas and wait for His answer. It seemed to me that God told me, "Why have you been fighting this for so long; let go and trust in me. You are just what I wanted you to be. " From that moment on I have been at peace with myself and my sexuality. I believe that I had been fighting God's plan for me. Once I decided to let go and let God take control, my life has changed.

I don't know if my story is of any help. Each person has to deal with life in his/her own way. My way was just to let go. God did the rest.


Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Deb]

1. Didn't even know what being gay meant.
2. Knew I was attracted to men but didn't think I was gay.
3. Knew I was gay but wouldn't admit it to myself.
4. Admitted to myself I was gay, but knew it was evil.
5. Came to the realization that being gay was OK with me and with God. (At about age 40.)

I had prayed for years that God would make me straight. When I gave up on that, I prayed that he would help me to ignore my sexuality. I first came to question the "evilness" of being gay after reading Mel White's Stranger at the Gate. It caused me to search other books and resources. I still wasn't convinced that I could reconcile me belief in the Bible with my homosexuality.

I decided that I would leave it up to God. I wanted to believe that I was OK and that God loved me exactly how I was. I asked Him to show me what He wanted from me in life. I asked Him to let me know what path to take. I was going to let go of my ideas and wait for His answer. It seemed to me that God told me, "Why have you been fighting this for so long; let go and trust in me. You are just what I wanted you to be. " From that moment on I have been at peace with myself and my sexuality. I believe that I had been fighting God's plan for me. Once I decided to let go and let God take control, my life has changed.

I don't know if my story is of any help. Each person has to deal with life in his/her own way. My way was just to let go. God did the rest.


Tu Amigo, Pablo

I really get all this, I realize so many of us have the same story or near it. Yet it seems we have been alone too. The finding I am not alone is a major thing for me right now. I would love to get over this current hurdle and in fact feel I will, somehow. because others have who also love the Lord as I do. I would love for this transistion to get over with. shoot... It kind of feels like some expectation of ourselves and life has to come to a breaking of sorts. I'm willing.
thank you to sharing.

[novaseeker]

Hi Deb!

It's a process for all of us, I think. It takes a good deal of patience with ourselves while we are working things out over the course of time. I don't think that there are short cuts, and I'm really only working my way through this as well myself, but it feels like the right thing to be doing, as difficult as it it. Keep in mind that God loves you, and remember to love yourself as well .. and be gentle and patient with yourself as you sort through these things.

[Zerbie]

Deb, after reading your posts I just wanna send you a bunch of these:
:love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

You are NOT alone!! You have friends here. Stay the course. If you don't give up, things will get better. It's okay to be uncertain. That's part of the deal, part of the path to finding the answer that with all the depth of your soul resonates as meant For You.

What Pablo said is brilliant! Let go of the answer you hope to hear and be receptive to what God speaks to you. Then listen, just listen.

I so hear you about 4am - my friends and I (years ago now) used to talk about this very subject, and enough of us woke at 3 or 4am feeling doubtful of God's acceptance of our existence, that we named it "The 4 am doubts." One of us might get a phone call, "Hey, I'm having the 4am doubts, can we get together and just watch TV?" It's tough stuff - having the slightly cute name for it helped us deal. Just keep on praying and listening, and meanwhile enjoy the rest of life. We are so much more than our orientation, and during crisis times we can sorta forget that. Go do something you love and let yoursef feel joy.

Peace to you Deb. :pray: :dove:

[marutidas]

14. Spiritualy Ecletic, and Open Sexuality.
I find stength in my sexuality, I have empathy and a deep caring nature
I Feel joy for anyone who has found love, Gay or straight. Celebrating Love in all of its forms. My road here has been long and bumpy, just as everyone here has been. I have seen the love of God, in all relationships, not just Hetero. I feel God in my heart and I strive to see God in everyone else.

The plain and simple truth God is Love. All love flows through God. To deny any love, is not God's doing. If you are going to hate someone, do it honestly, do not hide behind God.

Sexuality is a human issue, not one to be analysed with the Bible.
A healty sex life can deep and strengthen a relationship. Having and open honest talk about sex, is not something that the church at large, is comfortable with in the first place.

Do I mean that I have come to this understanding over night, no.
But awakening takes time, and depends on the persons life. It usally happens in stages. It can be easy, if the parents are open and welcoming, and it can be hard if the parent is expecting grandchildren or if they cannot accept their own children as God made them.

But, I take the suffering that I have experienced, as lessons that have made me a better person, I will help shoulder the burden of another, If they will accept it.

So, I don't fit into one of the numbers or catagory. I have come to my own conclusions, through alot of suffering, searching, praying, meditating, talking and reading.

~~~Maruti Das

[tdogg]

Hi Deb,

One of the hardest things for me to do was to ignore all the teaching and preaching by those who strived to instill in me that homosexuality was/is wrong, sinful, an abomination. I never truly believed it in my heart, but I listened, and didn't do anything to open discussion, debate or allow anyone to know that part of me. Eventually of course I accepted myself and with that acceptance came a profound knowledge from within my heart (my soul?) that it was not displeasing to God. It was more a non-conviction of wrong-doing than anything, but confirmed to my heart that God accepted me just as He created me and accepted my relationship as well.

It's so difficult to set aside all that we have been taught as Christians and just go with our gut feelings. For me, think I was able to do that easy enough because I never bought into what I taught as far as believing it. It would have been even easier (now, harder at the time) had I allowed myself to be 'me' and disputed what I was taught.

Not sure how this helps?? But my heart goes out to you Deb, so hope you are feeling the hugs, love and prayers being sent your way!

((((((((:love: :love: :love: :pray: :love: :love: :love: ))))))))

[tpdncr4christ]

God made me. He made my toes. He made my feet. He made me tall. He made me a boy. He made me gay. He did not make me a sinner. I did that. I asked for forgiveness, He forgave me. Then I moved on.

I think...

[Daniel]

Happened to be watching CNN Anderson Cooper (a semi-closed gay man!) this evening. He had Justin Lee on after a report on the division within the Episcopal church.

This young man is doing his part to reach conservatives- crossing the divide- with the message that one can be gay and christian- and for all intent and purposes- looks like he's doing a good job of it at http://www.gaychristian.net/community/showtopic.php?tid/13805361.

[BronzDragon]

For those interested in participating ... How have you reconciled your faith with your sexuality (or with your acceptance of homo/bi-sexuality if your are heterosexual)? Please choose the one most significant response to the question below.

14. Other?

» Thom says: ☛ Before my midlife crisis, I asked questions that “normal” Pentecostalists found offensive and repulsive. I was struggling with ideas that were inside me and those that were being presented as true from outside me. Then one day someone dear to me was going through a crisis and chose suicide (failed), then exiled me to the streets. Facing once more a need, I found (for the third time in my life) the church to be other than advertized (and not just the Pentecostal, either).

In a moment of rage I rejected God, the Church, and those claiming to be Christian. In due course of time my sense of fairness kicked in and I started looking for answers elsewhere. I Studied to become Wiccan (DCWA), then evolved into Paganism, then into spiritual Satanism. As I’ve matured, I’ve sought to find reasons for behavior, guilt and shame, and to fight against religious fascism. During all this time I’ve dropped any pretenses, penetrated deeply to find out who and what I am, and embraced that which will survive my death, and dropped that which would not.

With Mel White’s book, Religion Gone Bad, I have seen that there is another way to be Christian than the pretenses I’ve grown up with. No, I am not taking up the Christian label, that would require rejecting all that has become me over the past twenty or so years. I am, however, ready to repair the damage that resulted, and to reincorporate the better parts that I threw out with the baptismal water. Is this the right path? It is for me.

So, to answer your question, accepting my gay identity has been part of a larger growth in my life.

[Deb]

Novaseeker, Zerbie and tdogg.... thank you .... really .. thanks.
It makes a big difference to know I'm not alone. :)

[Deb]

Happened to be watching CNN Anderson Cooper (a semi-closed gay man!) this evening. He had Justin Lee on after a report on the division within the Episcopal church.

This young man is doing his part to reach conservatives- crossing the divide- with the message that one can be gay and christian- and for all intent and purposes- looks like he's doing a good job of it at http://www.gaychristian.net/community/showtopic.php?tid/13805361.

well worth watching... thanks for sharing.

[scott snedeker]

My nature is who I am. I was made this way. So I choose an affirming symbol for my connection with source (God if you please) that is the sigil of Pan. His model is the touchstone the vibrates best with my inner joy, empowerment and deep feelings. Positve touchstones affirm (nourshment). Negative touchstones feel bad (spiritual poison)

He did not accept men having sex with men. He had sex with men (according to myth). Any concept a human has of connection with God is a model. Pan is therefore my logical choice . He was paternal loving and like me has the spirit of a satyr.

So I went from divorce (13) to other (14) which is I am gay by design, a deliberate intention by Source (God)

[RainbowL'elly]

when i finally decided to identify as bisexual i had already abandoned the strict constructs of church and dogma that i had learned growing up from the simplistic sunday school lessons and the prejudicial preachers. i never really had to come to terms with my sexuality in light of my faith because my faith had already come to terms with 'variant' sexualities. i watched my cousin go through a very hard coming-out phase. i remember one night when he called me near tears asking me if him being gay meant he was a bad person and he was going to hell. how could i say anything but no? i didnt believe he was going to hell, i never really had, even though i really hadnt thougth about questioning that part of faith until then. i started talking through it with him over the phone- God made you, the Bible says He made everything and He made it perfect- therefore you are perfect. Jesus only gave one commandment and that was to love- to deny yourself that would be going against what Jesus commanded. i decided after talking to him and comforting him that i was going to have to seriously question this church thing. he is one of my best friends- i adore him- and i knew right then that i was going to have to deal with a lot more of this kind of questioning from other people and a lot harder conversations with him over the course of my life. i decided that if God was such an arse that He would create someone purely for the purpose of condemning them that i would have nothing to do with Him. thankfully i discovered that a lot of the people who had been getting all preachy with me were the ones that i shoudlnt have been listening to in the first place because they had no idea what they were talking about. since that was about four years before i openly identified as bi, i had a bit of time to figure out my faith before i thougth too much about my sexuality. i hung out with my friends who werent straight and learned a lot from being with them and being accepted into their lives and their trust. i let them teach me. i didnt date until college and that helped a lot too- i had time to think before i let hormones drive me nutters.
there's how i am a 1 and a 14 and quite a bit about why i am a 9 as well.

i came to decide that John Lennon was right all along-
"All you need is Love
Love is all you need"
if God is Love and you use conventional definitions in the song as well, everything is covered- John Lennon gave us the great commandment in a modern form we could all enjoy, no matter what our religion or spirituality.

with love being the sole focus of our needs and God being the creator of Love, how can we go wrong? if we focus on how we love one another, we are living in the image of God.

[Daniel]

I'd like to bump this thread, and even tweak it in a slightly different direction if possible.

I've been investigating other websites that deal with matters gay and christian and found myself coming away with this question: "Why does it seem that christians- and gay christians in particular- have what seems to be a preoccupation with celibacy? And if this is an accurate observation, does this have anything to do with internalized homophobia?"

It seems to me that gay people, the more conservative they are, the more they tend toward this kind of thinking.

I must confess to having a period during my life when I thought that holiness and purity had everything to do with celibacy and the renunciation of sexual pleasure. But then, it eventually occurred to me (caution: I'm going to be bawdy here) that purity had more to do with what came out of my mouth than what I put in it.

What do you think? Does internalized homophobia play a role here? And if so, how? And if not, why?

Another thought comes to mind: in reference to another thread here, is celibacy, in the mind of a gay person trying to evade his/her orientation, the grandest of covers?

[andrewlittle]

I've been investigating other websites that deal with matters gay and christian and found myself coming away with this question: "Why does it seem that christians- and gay christians in particular- have what seems to be a preoccupation with celibacy? And if this is an accurate observation, does this have anything to do with internalized homophobia?"

It seems to me that gay people, the more conservative they are, the more they tend toward this kind of thinking.

I must confess to having a period during my life when I thought that holiness and purity had everything to do with celibacy and the renunciation of sexual pleasure. But then, it eventually occurred to me (caution: I'm going to be bawdy here) that purity had more to do with what came out of my mouth than what I put in it.

What do you think? Does internalized homophobia play a role here? And if so, how? And if not, why?

Another thought comes to mind: in reference to another thread here, is celibacy, in the mind of a gay person trying to evade his/her orientation, the grandest of covers?

To your bawdiness, Daniel, you're in very good company:
In Matthew 15:11, Jesus is quoted as saying: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles.
Bawdy on, Daniel.

This thread exhibits the absolute unfairness and destruction that occurs from a culture's over-arching desire to find impurity in others, so that their own will pass under the radar. I literally wept over some of the pain expressed in posts like Deb's.

Why doesn't a man who has a proclivity towards balling anybody with an "inny", as opposed to an "outy", have to go through the angst and soul-searching that other people do? Well, because he's acting like a "real man". While there may be some social consequences, acceptance is easy because "he" is the dominant culture that sets the norm.

He will be a "normal" man with a little bit of a sexual problem.

A woman who does the same with every "outy" she meets will be considered a deviant whore, slut, or some other truly disparaging title and be ostracized by "decent" society. And the, God forbid, innys with innys and outys with outys - well, they're just deviants of the supreme sort.

Each of these will be a sexual problem on legs, with a little bit of humanity that we need to search out in order to bring them to the fullness of health. What bullshit. What damage results.

Dominant culture sets the stage upon which the play of life is performed. Dominant culture decides who is, and isn't, suitable for the roles; how the characters are to be played in order to fulfil the intent of the writer; even what scenes will be cut from the final production because they are inadequate or sub-par.

We are all raised in this dominant culture, and we are all affected by it. Is it in any way surprising that GLBT have homophobia lurking in the psyches. Hell, no. How could it be otherwise?

Dominant culture says that, unless you stick it in the same places I stick mine, you are deviant. That goes, also, for the person who happens to be the one it stick it into - ultimately dominant culture believes and teaches that they are deviant as well.

This is the same culture that expouses that girls be pure and demure, all the while trying to dress them up in scimpy, provacative outfits. The result, dominant culture can fantasize and masturbate over these little sex-toys that it has created, and demean them for being impure little tarts.

Dominant culture is the sickness that needs cured. The rest of us represent nothing more than the collateral damage of the dominant psychosis.

Dominant culture only wants celibacy for those whose appetite is different. It wants every woman to be a virgin, every time it screws her. It wants to be able to get off, but the object of its sexual desire should not. And for those who don't get off the same way - well, the only solution is abstinence. Celebate is wat you should be - not me. I'm a real man.

[andrewlittle]

Everything that Andy says is true (surprising huh? even a stopped clock is right twice a day I guess) but there is more.

Unless you're in Europe or many other places. While in England, I was only right once a day.

Christianity never fully freed itself from the taint of gnostic dualism. (Spiritual=good=God; Physical=not good=NOT God; Even Augustine who eschewed every form of heresy swallows and magnifies this aspect of gnosticism. And of course this dualism is related to another one which is Male(outie)=spiritual=good=God; Female(inny)=physical=evil=Not God.

So for conservative (read Augustinian) Christians, sex=physical=not good=NOT God. AND female(inny)= not good=NOT God. AND being gay=being inny=physical=not good=NOT God.

So even if you are a heterosexual conservative Christian you will be obligated to feel paroxisms of guilt about your sexual desires, but if you are a GAY Conservative Christian you get the double whammy. So if you are a GAY CC and you come to the conclusion (against all odds) that there is nothing wrong with who you are, you may still believe that Celibacy is the proper choice for you since sex still=physical which still=not spiritual which = not good and NOT God.

The problem with this, as with all calls by the church for Gays to remain celibate, is that it assumes that celibacy is a choice rather than a charism (spiritual gift) which assumption is UNBIBILICAL!

Do you mean to say that Origen's self-imposed castration may not have been God's will?

[Daniel]

Do you mean to say that Origen's self-imposed castration may not have been God's will?

Ouch! Big ol' ouch! Origen must have taken the injunction 'If they eye offend thee, cut it out!' seriously.

Andrew- I admire the candor and fire of your post (I'm glad to see that your found your other sphere). Yes- I think you do get it right. And David- your comments adds just the right amount of spice to the stew we've found ourselves in.

David- it's interesting that, in light of your comments on gnostic thinking, that I have been- of late- calling myself a gnostic christian/buddhist, whatever that is. That said, I personally don't think of myself as a 'spirit is good the flesh is bad' kind of thinker. More to the point, I find myself bucking for a self-knowledge that embraces the inner and the outer worlds without sacrificing one for the other.

And maybe that's a useful term here: sacrifice. It seems that what is being required of gay christians is sacrifice, a crucifixion of any expression of physical love on the altar of ego- one's own or another's.

That sounds very much like idolatry to me.

[Blossom]

So even if you are a heterosexual conservative Christian you will be obligated to feel paroxisms of guilt about your sexual desires, but if you are a GAY Conservative Christian you get the double whammy...
The problem with this, as with all calls by the church for Gays to remain celibate, is that it assumes that celibacy is a choice rather than a charism (spiritual gift) which assumption is UNBIBILICAL!

Yes, the desire to marry is assumed the norm biblically (as well as experientially in the modern world--the majority of people want to enter into a devoted, loving relationship). However, those who did not feel this desire--or who felt called to devote their whole lives to God--were not to be looked down upon.

I suppose I've been out of the fundamentalist church for a while--but my current experience of church does not match the old idea that our bodies (and sexual desires) are bad. Many churches (conservative included) are celebrating sexuality in the proper context--marriage. Many of our thoughts and desires are natural and good, as long as they remain in the proper context. Lust is a sin, not because sexuality is wrong, but because lust takes sexuality into the wrong context.

[BruceChris]

If and when I am lucky enough to marry someone of either gender, my marriage will NOT be complete unless I can joyously Love AND Lust my spouse. Straight people are supposed to have just enough lust to have babies, but not enough to admit it, or enjoy it? I do not believe that MY God ever said that. In the proper relationship, Lust is Great Stuff! :agree: :weee: :agree:

And when you are a man who has reached a certain age, lust is definitely not a sin, it is a blessing. :agree:

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Daniel]

Now this puts us in a pickle, doens't it? Gay folk can't marry, at least in most of these United States except one: Massachusetts. And if sexual activity outside of marriage is lustful, then I guess we're all going to have to get married. I'm sure you'd be behind that Blossom, right? That is, of course, unless you see gay love- yes we do make love- as intrinsically lustful and not worthy of marriage.

So which is it? Marriage or bust?

And when you are a man who has reached a certain age, lust is definitely not a sin, it is a blessing

And I thought you were talkin' about viagra!

[Zerbie]

Lemme just back up Daniel, here. Not meaning to pick a fight - I have no idea where you, Blossom, stand on the issue of marriage equality - but part of the conundrum gay couples face is that they are condemned for expressing sexuality outside of the marriage context, yet prohibited from marrying each other. I suppose you have probably already considered this. So many commited couples cannot legally marry despite their commitment, that in my mind I consider a relationship like that as a marriage - if only the state did, as well.

[Daniel]

So many commited couples cannot legally marry despite their commitment, that in my mind I consider a relationship like that as a marriage - if only the state did, as well.

Thanks for your back up Zerbie. The fact is that there are a great many gay couples like my husband and I who are married. In our case we were married in Toronto, Canada, June 26th, 2005. Yet our marriage is not recognized in my home state or in my country- the good ol' USA.

We've been together a lot longer than a great many straight couples-15 years and counting- may all blessing be upon their heads. And I hope I can be forgiven for being a wee bit frustrated with talk of lust and love. We've more than paid our dues- thank you very much.

[Blossom]

BruceChris,

We are using different definitions, I believe, for lust. By lust, I do not mean sexual attraction or excitement. I mean lusting after something that is not yours. For those who use the Bible as their guide, lust is certainly not seen as a positive desire. Even outside of Christianity, common usage of the word "lust" has a negative connotation. Lust is often seen as desiring something that is not yours. When married persons desire one another sexually, their desire for one another is good. For, they are not lusting after something that is not theirs; they belong to one another.

Zerbie,

Yes, the conundrum is painfully obvious. I understand (at least to some degree) the pain and frustrations that gay people must feel. However, you likely know that I do not support gay marriage. My goal was not to respond to this issue. My thoughts on these issues were made known sometime back, and I do not intend to revisit them. I found that attempting to discuss these issues often brought out people's nasty side. Instead, I have checked in once in a while to see what is being discussed, rarely responding. I've continued to learn more about the thoughts and experiences of gay persons. On almost every topic of discussion, I have disagreed with much of what has been said, but I'm still glad to learn about your thought process and understand where you are coming from.

[Zerbie]

,


Zerbie,

Yes, the conundrum is painfully obvious. I understand (at least to some degree) the pain and frustrations that gay people must feel. However, you likely know that I do not support gay marriage. My goal was not to respond to this issue. My thoughts on these issues were made known sometime back, and I do not intend to revisit them. I found that attempting to discuss these issues often brought out people's nasty side. Instead, I have checked in once in a while to see what is being discussed, rarely responding. I've continued to learn more about the thoughts and experiences of gay persons. On almost every topic of discussion, I have disagreed with much of what has been said, but I'm still glad to learn about your thought process and understand where you are coming from.

Thanks for your openness, Blossom. Somehow, I do not recall your position on marriage equality (that's ok tho, no need to revisit), I only recall a conversation about singing. Glad you are reading and observing the things members think, feel, do, worry about, care about, etc. . .

I suppose when you say you disagree with what you read, you mean with certain theological or political arguments. 'k. I also suppose you know that a lot of what is being shared on this website comes from the depths of peoples' hearts, and much of it, if not 99% of it, comes from our deep love of God and one another. :dove:

I also believe it is asking something super-human of anyone (in this case gay people) to accept a status of inequality under state and federal law and expect not to run into a "nasty side" - if people spoke about my marriage the way they do about gay couples' relationships, I would probably at some point blow a fuse. That said, I obviously missed that conversation, so I'm not excusing it if someone was personally "nasty" to you.

Well - what else is there but to keep trying to reach out and relate as human beings and loving neighbors? We have to try. If only a tiny little but in this world were different, I might have been Blossom, and Blossom, you might have been Daniel, and so on, and so on. . . .

[Daniel]

Yes, the conundrum is painfully obvious. I understand (at least to some degree) the pain and frustrations that gay people must feel..

Blossom- I would have hoped you could answer my honest question with an honest instead of couching your carefully chosen words in a post to others. I am not so naive.

Behind the fierceness of my expression lies a lover- and I will fight for my beloved until my dying breath. Your answer- or lack or it- shows- unfortunately- just how deeply your understanding of what gay marriage means to those who are denied it- and how far your compassion reaches.

Love demands more.

I wish you really did know know the pain and frustration we feel. That you do not seem to be able to grasp this in its fullness reveals why there is a need for forums like this and threads that deal with reconciling sexuality and faith.

[Blossom]

Blossom- I would have hoped you could answer my honest question with an honest answer to me directly instead of couching your carefully chosen words to me in a post to others. I am not so naive.

Behind the fierceness of my expression lies a lover- and I will fight for my beloved until my dying breath. Your answer- or lack or it- shows- unfortunately- just how deeply your understanding of the matter of gay marriage goes to those of us to whom it matters greatly- and how far your compassion reaches. Love demands more.


Seriously, Daniel, could you try to refrain from accusations?

Your question was:
Now this puts us in a pickle, doens't it? Gay folk can't marry...And if sexual activity outside of marriage is lustful, then I guess we're all going to have to get married. I'm sure you'd be behind that Blossom, right? That is, of course, unless you see gay love- yes we do make love- as intrinsically lustful and not worthy of marriage.
So which is it? Marriage or bust?

Daniel, I thought you would remember my thoughts on this and really didn't think you needed an answer. I sensed that you were trying to make a point rather than desiring that I share my thoughts.

Conservative Christianity does not believe that homosexuality is part of God's perfect plan. Therefore, homosexual sex is not supported whether it is inside or outside of marriage. I understand your frustration (although I'm sure you doubt this), and respect the fact that many homosexual people desire to be faithful and monogomous in their relationships, even though I cannot support the specific relationship itself. This is a painful divide in belief, and it should be painful to disagree on issues as important as this. I am not prepared to enter the ring again to fight this out. And I really don't want to fight. That would require faith that the result could be better this time. Given your comment above, I do not have this faith. The last word is yours.

[Daniel]

Seriously, Daniel, could you try to refrain from accusations?
.

What you see as accusation is a challenge to Love. And let's be frank here, shall we? I think you are smart enough to know what you were doing when you wrote your post, so please don't use words to try and glide past the issue. We have not- to my knowledge- tackled this issue here. Perhaps you are remembering another?

' I thought you would remember my thoughts on this' amounts to a great deal of obfuscation with very little light showing through. If you are going to insert your opinions here, I would hope you would have the courage to be direct and forthright.

Please Blossom, don't hide behind words.

I rather doubt that there is such a thing as conservative christianity- as if in all of time and space there exist one perfect christianity that only a very select few can obtain or know. There are conservative christian persons who expouse conservative christian dogma. Dogma that they would impose on the rest of their christian bothers and sisters. Conservative persons who deny the truth that is before their eyes- the Love that GLBTQ folks have for each other. Love that springs from the same source that all Love does.

For you to assert otherwise- would reveal how grossly misinformed you would be. Either Love is Love or it is not.

(I) respect the fact that many homosexual people desire to be faithful and monogomous in their relationships, even though I cannot support the specific relationship itself.

To deny support to gay folk in their relationships as well as the ability to obtain legal marriage is tantamount to denying them Love. I fear that what you deny us you deny yourself: for we cannot give what we do not have.

I am sorry that you are not able to comprehend this Love for what it is. And for that you have my compassion. I do not attack you Blossom. I address the untruth you have chosen to believe.

I offer this last thought:

If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find in each man's life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility. Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

I wish I could say that I comprehend you Blossom, but I do not. You are as veiled to me as the sun during a hard rain. And I wish that you could truly see those here whom you visit from time to time. I imagine that you visit here to understand, if not to be understood. But for this to happen, we are going to have to look deep into each other's hearts without flinching.

May God Bless you in your Journey. May Love give to you all that you seek. May rank upon rank of angels bless you as you sleep and whisper in your ear the same loving thoughts that your gay and lesbian brother and sisters in Christ- yea all of who live and breath- hear. Let us all listen to Love and Attend.

[Zerbie]

Conservative Christianity does not believe that homosexuality is part of God's perfect plan. Therefore, homosexual sex is not supported whether it is inside or outside of marriage. I understand your frustration (although I'm sure you doubt this), and respect the fact that many homosexual people desire to be faithful and monogomous in their relationships, even though I cannot support the specific relationship itself. This is a painful divide in belief, and it should be painful to disagree on issues as important as this. I am not prepared to enter the ring again to fight this out. And I really don't want to fight. That would require faith that the result could be better this time. Given your comment above, I do not have this faith. The last word is yours.

And many gay people ARE faithful/monogamous in their relationships.

Do we need to personally, individually support every couple that gets married? Semi-rhetorical question obviously, Blossom, as a way of saying - hey, let's acknowledge that there are couples out there who are unable to obtain legal recognition of their relationships, whether we think they have chosen their partners well, or not. It isn't up to us to determine what WE think is God's best in choice of life partner. When dealing with adults, we HAVE to respect peoples' rights to choose a partner, whether or not we think that person is a good choice. And the STATE does not belong making that choice for a couple of consenting adults.

Okay - I'll stop before we turn this into a re-hash of the marriage "debate." Anyway, this thread is about something else - if we want to continue this conversation, it should move.

Shall we now go back to regularly scheduled programming? ;)

[Daniel]

Shall we now go back to regularly scheduled programming?

By all means. Lead the way.

[andrewlittle]

Seriously, Daniel, could you try to refrain from accusations?

Interesting, this. Daniel's comment did not read like an accusation, it read like an observation on how words are used. What did he accuse you of exactly? You seem to be quick to take up defense - as if it were almost a very refined weapon to dismiss discussion.

It didn't take much reading between lines to figure out that you do not have any appreciation for the issue of gay marriage, nor for the emotional issues associated with it. It, therefore, seems quite disingenuous to say, "Yes, the conundrum is painfully obvious. I understand (at least to some degree) the pain and frustrations that gay people must feel..."
By the way, in case you missed it, that WAS an accusation.
...
Conservative Christianity does not believe that homosexuality is part of God's perfect plan.
Blossom, despite your apparent belief to the contrary, YOU do not speak for conservative christianity. Christianity that is conservative spans a wide range of beliefs and doctrines. Virtually every denomination or association of conservative churches has a sizeable group opposed to the majority's discrimination based on sexuality. The people who make up these groups are conservative Christians, and would be rightly upset that you would claim to represent their views.

That aside, perhaps you could expound on the special insight you have received as far as "God's perfect plan."

That phrase is church-speak for the somewhat nebulous concept of God's will for humanity. If you research most doctrines, especially the United Methodist Church's, you will find that the phrase describes what we can not really know, but which we infer from scripture, tradition, reason and experience. I am sure you're familiar with that little quadrilateral credited to John Wesley. Claiming to have knowledge of that "perfect plan" to the extent you feel comfortable excluding certain people from the full rights of the church and society, belies the humility that we, as Christians, ought to have with regard to our own doctrinal formulations.
Therefore, homosexual sex is not supported whether it is inside or outside of marriage.
"Therefore" is a word that implies "since the previous point has been proven, it follows that ..." It is logical folly to say "therefore" when your previous point is so obviously over-generalized and inaccurate. That is your belief, not that of conservative christianity.
I understand your frustration (although I'm sure you doubt this), and respect the fact that many homosexual people desire to be faithful and monogomous in their relationships, even though I cannot support the specific relationship itself. This is a painful divide in belief, and it should be painful to disagree on issues as important as this.
You are so very, very correct here. I do, indeed, doubt that you understand the frustration. I do not believe you suffer any pain whatsoever from the disagreement.

BTW, the discussion is not about being "faithful and monogamous in their relationships", it is about being afforded the basic human right and dignity of being able to marry whomever they see fit, so long as the person is "of age" and capable of making the committment in the first place. Since when has heterosexual marriage exemplified "faithful and monogamous", even in conservative circles. That may be the goal, but you can hardly find the proof in the pudding.

As far as "faithful and monogamous" goes, it is not simply a desire, it is a lived out reality in the lives of many, many GLBT people. That reality does not require your, or anyone else's "respect". The issue is the social, legal and religious recognition of the "faithful and monogamous" relationships that exist, and would continue to develop in the future.
I am not prepared to enter the ring again to fight this out. And I really don't want to fight. That would require faith that the result could be better this time. Given your comment above, I do not have this faith. The last word is yours.
You entered the ring by posting. The fact that you may not be prepared sounds, as they say, like a personal problem. Perhaps it would behoove you to prepare before entering a discussion about issues that you claim to want to avoid, but enter into nonetheless by spouting off mind-numbing, unflective party-line diatribe. Sounds like dissimulation to me. (oops, another accusation. Are you sure? Oh yeah, bet your ass - it was an accusation.)

"The last word is yours" - well, somehow, I doubt that very much.

Just in case you're interested I am a straight (apologies to all you folks who have implored me to stop highlighting this), evangelical, biblically conservative (in the original languages - this extends just a tad beyong the KJV, BTW), Christian who is sick and tired of small-minded, biblically illiterate, unrepentently self-serving and self-interested people claiming to speak for me and my beliefs because they think they have some special divine insight (received directly from Rev Billy Joe Bob Bigot) into the mind of God. Just in case you missed it, that was indeed an accusation, and a rant.

[andrewlittle]

Perhaps I was a little intemperate. What do you think?

[Daniel]

Perhaps I was a little intemperate. What do you think?

Well Andrew...as is said in the end of that glorious gender bender of a movie Some Like it Hot:

Jerry: Oh, you don't understand, Osgood! Ehhhh... I'm a man.
Osgood: Well, nobody's perfect.

All I know is, I want you with me in a dark alley. ;)

[novaseeker]

Everything that Andy says is true (surprising huh? even a stopped clock is right twice a day I guess) but there is more.

Christianity never fully freed itself from the taint of gnostic dualism. (Spiritual=good=God; Physical=not good=NOT God; Even Augustine who eschewed every form of heresy swallows and magnifies this aspect of gnosticism. And of course this dualism is related to another one which is Male(outie)=spiritual=good=God; Female(inny)=physical=evil=Not God.

So for conservative (read Augustinian) Christians, sex=physical=not good=NOT God. AND female(inny)= not good=NOT God. AND being gay=being inny=physical=not good=NOT God.

So even if you are a heterosexual conservative Christian you will be obligated to feel paroxisms of guilt about your sexual desires, but if you are a GAY Conservative Christian you get the double whammy. So if you are a GAY CC and you come to the conclusion (against all odds) that there is nothing wrong with who you are, you may still believe that Celibacy is the proper choice for you since sex still=physical which still=not spiritual which = not good and NOT God.

The problem with this, as with all calls by the church for Gays to remain celibate, is that it assumes that celibacy is a choice rather than a charism (spiritual gift) which assumption is UNBIBILICAL!

All of this is true.

It has to be remembered that at the time that Paul was writing, the atmosphere of belief was apocalyptic. That is, Paul assumed that the end of the world was coming very soon, and his attitudes toward human relationships in general -- and particularly sexuality -- reflect that. Gone is the ethic of Genesis relating to fecundity (motivated as that was by the writers' desire to increase the ranks of the fold of Israel) and instead it is replaced by a radical ethic of personal "purity" in which marriage is viewed as a second best to celibacy, as an act of moral condescension for those who are too tempted by sexuality and who will, if celibate, "burn" with lust. In short, it's a way to control and contextualize that "burning" for those who are not strong enough to lead the celibate life. Paul's writings do not reflect a concern for building a stable community around family life at all, regardless of what self-described "conservative Christians" like to think -- Paul's vision was that of an apocalyptic community experiencing the end days of the age, and living in a state of communitarian sharing, brotherhood and sisterhood, and, yes, ideally in celibacy.

Obviously, the end times didn't happen that way. So, as it became clear that the initial apocalyptic vision was not going to be realized immediately, church teachers in subsequent generations turned their eyes to reflecting on what would be a specifically "Christian" idea of communitarian and family life. This comes only a few centuries after the foundation of the religion, and the church didn't even begin to take interest -- in terms of its ritual -- in marriages until several centuries into its history (undoubtedly in part because the vast majority of people were not allowed to be civilly "married", because marriage was only open to the elite class in the Empire ... most marriages at the time among the common people are what we would today call "common law marriages" and the church only later became interested in blessing these unions).

The idea that some conservative Christians have about all of this is really astounding in that it is very far removed from what the church traditionally taught about family life. Family life was never idolized by the church, celibacy was. It's only in the last few centuries that the church has taken the interest that it now does in marriage and family life. The people who today claim the moniker "conservative Christian" are really fooling themselves because their beliefs are neither conservative nor Christian. A conservative belief would make celibacy normative (and not idolize the nuclear family, an idolization that is notably absent in the Gospels and Paul's writings), and disallow virtually all divorce (and not get all "liberal" about interpreting Jesus' use of the word "adultery" to equate it to "things my ex-spouse did to ruin our relationship") -- but they do not do that.

Why? Because in essence, their "conservative" reading of the Bible is in reality not a "conservative" hermeneutics at all, but is instead a projection onto the Bible of what they think is normative socially: heterosexual marriage (not celibacy), primacy of nuclear family over other social units, flexible divorce ideas as a concession to contemporary reality. They read these presuppositions into the Bible instead of approaching the Bible with a blank mind, free of presuppositions, and reading what's there in the context in which it was written. It's an act of a priori applying what today is referred to as "conservative" social views onto a collection of scripture that in many ways flies directly in the face of what social conservatives believe, and is instead radical: radically challenging people's presuppositions about themselves and reality in general. The whole idea of "conservative Christian" itself is nothing more than a political appropriation of Christianity to support a certain kind of contemporary social politics. The Bible itself is not "conservative" or "liberal", but it is personally challenging and represents a way apart from such thinking. I can't help but feel that Jesus is very displeased by attempts to use the scripture for these kinds of socio-political agendas, if his actions and words (as recorded in the Gospels) when he was confronted with efforts to use him for such purposes in his own day are any indication of his ideas about this kind of thing.

[Daniel]

Paul's writings do not reflect a concern for building a stable community around family life at all, regardless of what self-described "conservative Christians" like to think -- Paul's vision was that of an apocalyptic community experiencing the end days of the age, and living in a state of communitarian sharing, brotherhood and sisterhood, and, yes, ideally in celibacy.

It's only in the last few centuries that the church has taken the interest that it now does in marriage and family life. The people who today claim the moniker "conservative Christian" are really fooling themselves because their beliefs are neither conservative nor Christian. A conservative belief would make celibacy normative (and not idolize the nuclear family, an idolization that is notably absent in the Gospels and Paul's writings), and disallow virtually all divorce (and not get all "liberal" about interpreting Jesus' use of the word "adultery" to equate it to "things my ex-spouse did to ruin our relationship") -- but they do not do that.

Why? Because in essence, their "conservative" reading of the Bible is in reality not a "conservative" hermeneutics at all, but is instead a projection onto the Bible of what they think is normative socially: heterosexual marriage (not celibacy), primacy of nuclear family over other social units, flexible divorce ideas as a concession to contemporary reality.


There is a great irony here which speaks to my earlier question as to why gay christians seem to be prone to the idealization of celibacy.

Modern christian conservative thought, which you so eloquently and rightly buttonhole here, does not require Paul's apolcalyptic vision of celibacy for itself (it seems a little 'burning' is a good thing), yet requires the same for gay believers. By that standard, gay celibate christians are the model for us all, if Paul is to be followed to the letter.

Fortunately, we are not bound to be literalists, that is, unless we chain ourselves to the ignorance of those who cannot differentiate between ancient fact and modern fiction.

[Zerbie]

Perhaps I was a little intemperate. What do you think?

Well, the last couple lines involved some name-calling, and I don't think I'd go so far as to imply that a certain poster is "Biblically illiterate" - and calling people bigots tends to make them slam the door in our faces (although it's also a relevant question whether the door was ever genuinely open to begin with, but I'm for the benefit of the doubt until or unless I feel convinced otherwise.) I find the name-calling harsh.

The rest of your post was brilliant, and I thank you for it.

[Daniel]

I've been re-reading this little gem of a book, and a separate thread is probably in order for those who have not discovered it, but I think a short excerpt might serve as an interlude in the discussion as well as material for reflection.


We have seen the enemy, and they are us.

Working with the principles of Interdependence, compassion and Love, LGBT people consciously renounce the perception of our oppressors as enemies. We see how our history, fate and (fortunate and unfortunate) circumstance are linked to theirs. Our "enemies" instead become incredibly important and valuable beings with whom we share a holarchial existence. They are beings whose suffering ang joy have dramatic direct and indirect effects on us. Our most vocal adversaries are simply people arrested in the grip of an outmoded worldview based on dominator hierachies, people whose pain and misunderstanding, are (very unfortunately) acted out in increasingly harmful ways.

When we begin to see our ememies in this way, we immdediately begin to feel enormous compassion for them, these injured and ignorant people who only want, just like us, to be happy and avoid suffering! They simply do not understand their interdependent connection with us, nor what genuine happiness and love are, nor how to achieve them. They have chosen Fear. They are scared and hurt and acting out their pain. They cause harm consciously, but they really don't know who else to do or why they ought to do things differently. Many of them actually feel an intense fear that to change their beliefs or behavior, in and of itself, would doom them to eternal suffering. They feel safest where they are, and the information-base they're working from says that they already have all the facts and everyone else is wrong. Still, in the best interests of our well-being and theirs, we must offer conscious , loving commitment to their happiness and avoidance of suffering. In fact, it is helpful to think of them as if they were our children, whom we love, we teach, we nuture, even when they don't desire or appreciate it.

Beside- they do not see us-not as we are. They see only their idea of who we are. The dangerous-to-the-family, child-recruiting, fundamentally diseased and disordered, god-hating, and highly-organized gay rights movement with its' "gay agenda," is their concept. They can only deal with with LGBT people as stereotypes and sex acts, not as people varied and diverse as heterosexuals. They are wrong about who we are and what our goals are, but should we hold their error against them? Of course not. Clinging to pain and ill will does not benefit either party. Our capacity to forgive must be grand.

Forgiving our opponents does not mean that we forget or ignore their harmful words and deeds. Of course we continue to be conscientious and careful- we don't have to place our hand on the stove again and again to prove that, yes, it's really hot! Remembering the harm that others cause does not mean, however, that we withold our forgiveness.

Our forgiveness arises directly from our compassion for them as confused and suffering beings. We must avoid judging people and holding grudges against them because judgement acts as an agent of holonic separation that destroys our evolutionary potential to include and transcend. When we see what our enemies do not, that by attacking us they are engaged in indirect self-destruction- since, as we have already learned about Interdependence, "What is done to one is done to all, and to me" - our hearts are open to them.

[tdogg]

I believe wanting something that someone else has is "coveting"? Lusting is a physical condition linked to a sexual state? It is perfectly natural, normal and wonderful to "lust" after the object of one's affection. Feeling attraction is yet a separate emotion - it doesn't necessarily include coveting or lusting. Main points here:

1. For being supposedly so 'civilized and progressed' this country is hugely uptight when it comes to sex. Christian, non-Christian, whatever - UPTIGHT. Our sexual selves are as much a part of us as any other part. Why in the world would we be created with sexuality being such a large part of our creation, yet expected to never act on it. Cruel, inhumane, unconscienable.

2. Read the Biblical book "Song of Solomon". Yikes, is that totally completely sexual and lustful or what???!!! Well, it appears that if one believes the Biblical texts are inspired (especially a perfect translation of God's intent) by God, then how could one come to the conclusion that God wants us to hide our sexual selves? I don't recall reading anything about the two individuals being "married"?? Folks, it doesn't come much more sexual than those two.

3. I don't find a need to "reconcile" my faith and my sexuality - although at one time I believed it was a must. I'm a lesbian and very happy about that, I have spiritual faith and very happy about that. The two are intertwined and there is no conflict in my heart or head (or soul) about it. For the others that have an issue with my sexual orientation and faith, well, I'm just grateful that I do not need their permission or approval to act on my sexual feelings, be gay or love God. My beliefs and who I am do not require the approval of any other person. It's a great place to be...

4. There is much love on these boards for conservatives, Christians, conservative Christians, fundamentalists and any others who do not approve of us, equality, whatever. It has been shown through patience, tolerance, well-thought and written responses. However, do not confuse love with us being a doormat - we will not stop until we have full equality. No SPECIAL rights for heterosexuals - nothing less than full and equal rights for GLBTs.

[Zerbie]

Wow Tdogg - magnificent post!!

:) :love:

[Dash]

Hi...

I realize that I have not posted so much lately, and I neither know, nor am perhaps much known by many of the new folk here. Nonetheless, I have a very personal request to make.

I feel bound to Blossom for reasons that not all of you may know. For a time, I was ashamed...weary of battling wills...matching wits... I think I've learned a bit since my time in conversation with her, and though I have no heart for entering again into analysis and argument, I welcome her presence.

While I understand the frustration of hearing words and opinions that anger us, I ask that in our anger we do not speak ill of Blossom. I am grateful for the knowledge, wisdom and brilliant articulation that all of you share. I'm humbled to be in your midst. We are blessed to have all of you here. I do not ask that you refrain from engaging untruth where you find it, but I ask in this special case, at least, that you guard your words most carefully after the way of Gandhi who wrote:

"This ahimsa is the basis of the search for truth. I am realizing every day that the search is vain unless it is founded on ahimsa as the basis. It is quite proper to resist and attack a system, but to resist and attack its author is tantamount to resisting and atacking oneself. For we are all tarred with the same brush, and are children of one and the same Creator, and as such the divine powers within us are infinite. To slight a single human being is to slight those divine powers, and thus to harm not only that being but with him the whole world."

It may seem a difficult task, but I ask that you do it--if only for my sake. I feel deeply indebted to her as a touchstone that showed me my own failure in loving. I have been most guilty of laspes in nonviolence in thought and word toward her. My request is not a rebuke to anyone in any way, for I most of all have been a vehicle of violence toward Blossom myself. This ahimsa is a path to which I am trying to cling more fervently every day. It is the heart of Soulforce.:love::dove:

[Blossom]

This is a response to Andrew Little. Pardon the length and lack of text boxes

Andrew:Interesting, this. Daniel's comment did not read like an accusation… You seem to be quick to take up defense - as if it were almost a very refined weapon to dismiss discussion.

It is possible that I was overly sensitive to Daniel’s comment. In the past, I have repeatedly felt that he made judgmental comments and it is possible that if his comments are not intentionally kind, I would expect to experience a repeat of the past. As for using this as a defense to dismiss discussion, I actually prefer to spend my time discussing/debating with persons who attempt to be kind and respectful. Our time is too valuable to waste…as I probably am now.

After reviewing Daniel’s comment again (he wrote “your answer- or lack or it- shows- unfortunately- just how deeply your understanding of what gay marriage means to those who are denied it- and how far your compassion reaches”) I still feel that it is unfair. First of all, arguing from silence is not a safe argument. Daniel doesn’t know why I didn’t respond fully. He didn’t ask…he assumed. I wonder how many GLBT individuals participating in this group are in (good) relationship with someone who does not support homosexual sex or marriage. How do you maintain a positive relationship? Do you discuss the issues? How do you respond to them when you disagree?

It, therefore, seems quite disingenuous to say, "Yes, the conundrum is painfully obvious. I understand (at least to some degree) the pain and frustrations that gay people must feel..."
By the way, in case you missed it, that WAS an accusation.

Next time I’ll call you before making any comments, just so I can see what is allowed.

YOU do not speak for conservative christianity. Christianity that is conservative spans a wide range of beliefs and doctrines.

Later in your post, you say that you are conservative—just wondering what you mean by “conservative”. I recognize that there is diversity within conservatism, especially as you span the denominations and non-denominations, the fundamentalists and the non-fundamentalists. However, there is usually much more that unites us than divides us.

I grew up non-denominational (w/charismatic and Pentecostal influences), majored in religion at a Southern Baptist University, and received an M.Div. at a conservative Wesleyan influenced seminary. I am now part of the very divided UMC. I do have a sense of where conservatives, moderates, and liberals fall theologically. While I have no doubt that there are some doctrinally conservative/orthodox individuals who support homosexuality, it is rare. While I do not speak for each conservative, I do have a sense of where the vast majority of conservatives stand.

That aside, perhaps you could expound on the special insight you have received as far as "God's perfect plan." …

This discussion would take forever. It’s not that I’m not interested, I just don’t have the time. I suppose you will accuse me, however, in my silence. I’m curious, though, how did you know that I would know the quadrilateral?

Since when has heterosexual marriage exemplified "faithful and monogamous", even in conservative circles. That may be the goal, but you can hardly find the proof in the pudding.

Although divorce rates rise (and likely adultery rates, as well), there remain countless marriages which are faithful and monogamous.

As far as "faithful and monogamous" goes, it is not simply a desire, it is a lived out reality in the lives of many, many GLBT people. That reality does not require your, or anyone else's "respect". The issue is the social, legal and religious recognition of the "faithful and monogamous" relationships that exist, and would continue to develop in the future.

I know that that many GLBT people live in monogamous relationships. The word “desire” was not used to deny this fact. And I don’t give my respect because it is required. I’m not sure what comments you are able to receive graciously from those who differ from you on this issue.

You entered the ring by posting.

I posted on a topic that I find interesting and that could bring interesting discussion without going into the familiar conversations which I have already attempted (which have born little fruit for either side/perspective).

"The last word is yours" - well, somehow, I doubt that very much.

You are delightful!

Just in case you're interested I am a[n] evangelical, biblically conservative (in the original languages - this extends just a tad beyond the KJV, BTW), Christian who is sick and tired of small-minded, biblically illiterate, unrepentently self-serving and self-interested people claiming to speak for me and my beliefs because they think they have some special divine insight (received directly from Rev Billy Joe Bob Bigot) into the mind of God.

If so, I would have expected you to show a little more grace to those you perceive to be your enemies.

There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, how can any one of us criticize the rest of us.

Quite easily, it seems.

[Blossom]

Dash,

Thank you for your words of kindness and peace. They are a ray of hope that more understanding is possible than what we have experienced.

I almost regret responding to Andrew's comments, but his harshness and arrogance obviously annoyed me. What a step it is to learn to ignore such words.

However, in my post, I did bring up an issue that I would be happy to read all of your responses on. And hopefully, I can step out again. The question is this: how many of you have good relationships with people who share my foundational beliefs? How do you discuss the issues in a positive way with them, refraining from attacks or assumptions, anger or bruised feelings on either side?

Thanks again, Dash.

Blossom


p.s. Apologies to Daniel for discussing your comments to a third party. I was responding directly to a comment that was focused on your comment--I hope no offense was taken.

[Daniel]

[B]It is possible that I was overly sensitive to Daniel’s comment. In the past, I have repeatedly felt that he made judgmental comments and it is possible that if his comments are not intentionally kind, I would expect to experience a repeat of the past. As for using this as a defense to dismiss discussion, I actually prefer to spend my time discussing/debating with persons who attempt to be kind and respectful. Our time is too valuable to waste…as I probably am now.

After reviewing Daniel’s comment again (he wrote “your answer- or lack or it- shows- unfortunately- just how deeply your understanding of what gay marriage means to those who are denied it- and how far your compassion reaches”) I still feel that it is unfair. First of all, arguing from silence is not a safe argument. Daniel doesn’t know why I didn’t respond fully. He didn’t ask…he assumed. I wonder how many GLBT individuals participating in this group are in (good) relationship with someone who does not support homosexual sex or marriage. How do you maintain a positive relationship? Do you discuss the issues? How do you respond to them when you disagree?

Blossom- I am not offended, but would like to respond to your statement since my own prior statement was referenced.

Yes...I can be very judgmental indeed. And I think I have also shown that I am capable of learning from my mistakes. I have made- if you only knew me- rather extraordinary efforts to be civil and kind to you. That said, I see no reason to apologize for my commitment to the issues that concern this forum and the matter of marriage equality in particular.

If you have feared condemnation and unkindness from me Bloosom, I simply ask you to look at the beliefs you hold which inspire anger and dread in a gay man's soul like mine. What you see as truth is experienced as condemnation.

You have come here looking for what? Debate? That is one word you have used. Yet, when you posted on this thread and then were challenged on your statement by me, for all intent and purposes, you shrank from that debate, that is, until I called you on it. Is it possible that you enjoy the thrust and parry, the heat annd battle of words? So I must ask, why do you come here, if not to complain- as you have- that you are treated unkindly? If I have been so unkind, why do you come back? What do you seek? If not reconciliation, what?

He who puts his foot in the pool gets wet.

Is it not unfair of me to question you Blossom. What is unfair is that I had to fairly chase after you for you admit what I suspected but you would not utter to my face (and this a partial answer to your question: gay souls all too often find themselves with the burden of maintaining relationships with conservatives- don't call us- we'll call you- is the norm, unless, of course, they are the object of ministry). And for the record, my assumption was well founded: you stated- finally- that which I heard intimated in your words here as well as PM's - that you do not support my marriage to my beloved. Not only that, you do not support, apparently, any relationship between loving same-sex couples in any form or legal standing.

Please know that just because you cannot see the Love in our marriage- in our relationships- does not mean that it does not exist and is not blessed by God Himself.

The gentle rain that falls from heaven nourishes all- giving all to all.

To believe otherwise is to deny love to those -and from whom -you expect love and kindess. It is not your character, your very self, I address, Blossom, but the thought that you hold dear. The thought that says, for all intent and purposes, that us heteros have the real Gucci-bag of love, but the gays bought the fake one...have you seen the cheap material it's made out of....jeez!'. This is not a loving thought. For it denys Love. And what you deny others you deny youself.

Now. Your question, while engaging and worthy of answer, properly belongs on its own thread. That is not the subject matter here. May I suggest you start such a thread?

Lastly- I encourage you - in the spirit of understanding- and with Dash's statement as model- to give additional thought to your regret towards Andrew. He has, if you have not noticed, expressed much the same towards you. You will find it a page back.

[Daniel]

Tdogg and others have spoken how they have come to a place where there is no dissonance between their sexuality and their faith. I wish to add myself to that list. But to get there, I had to go through a good deal of introspection and thought, which wasn't exactly comfortable at the time. The following passage expresses that process eloquently.

Anytime there is a chance for deep love, there is standing in front of that love a wall of fire. That fire might take the form of of something burning within you- an inner condition- or it might take the from of an outer circumstance. But there is never love without fire..the presence of that fire does not say, 'Go away'....the presence of that fire says, 'Here, if you are strong enough to take it, is love'.

- Enchanted Love by Marrianne Williamson.

[andrewlittle]

Okay, Blossom, you have a point - several, in fact. And, Dash, thanks for the kick in the pants - Zerbie's points were well taken, yours were somewhat painful as, indeed, they should have been.

"Intemporate" doesn't even begin to describe my tenor in the post in question - it was, as Blossom pointed out, arrogant and harsh. No excuses, I was feeling like being harsh.

As to arrogant, well, that is something that I perceived we shared, Blossom - hence, my rant. Perhaps, I didn't spend enough time considering the log in my own eye before doing so. That, of course, brings up my own "personal problem" of not being prepared to enter the discussion in a non-violent way.

To all on this forum who have read that post, I apologize. I have said before that "a witness to violence is a victim of violence." I did do verbal violence.

To you, Blossom, I ask your forgiveness - not for many of the arguments I posited, but for the cruel and harsh things I said, and the overall manner in which I conducted myself.

I will rally to the defense of people I love and respect far quicker than to my own defense. I tend to be very thick skinned and "will take a licking and keep on..." I sometimes forget that people don't necessarily need me to defend them - there's that arrogance, again. But, anyway, to the matter at hand.

Later in your post, you say that you are conservative—just wondering what you mean by “conservative”.
I was raised Reformed Church of Australia, an equivalent in the U.S. being The Christian Reformed Church. I am still staunchly Calvinist, but have found my home in the Presbyterian Church (USA).

I am biblically conservative. I believe that, while the original scriptures were inspired by God, the successive translations and interpretations have colored their meanings with a multitude of culturally inspired biases. To be better able to read scripture, I have learned Hebrew, Greek and Latin in the effort to be able to plumb the depths of scripture with as little of the baggage of later traditions as possible. I mistrust tradition as it develops to, first, project an idea or assumption and, second, to protect that position based on self-interest.

I am also socially and fiscally conservative, but that begs a discussion far too long to enter into here. Suffice it to say, that the wide variety of understandings of "conservative" are based on that which we desire to "conserve" in the first place.

[B]I’m curious, though, how did you know that I would know the quadrilateral?
My wife is a United Methodist pastor and, as her husband, I am privy to wranglings and arguments within that denomination with regard to the issue of homosexuality. Your arguments seemed almost a textbook regurgitation of the anti-GLBT stands in the UMC. I just guessed, correctly I'm assuming, that you were Wesleyan. Please don't interpret any judgment in using the term "Wesleyan" - I do have a deep respect for that theologian, as well.

Although divorce rates rise (and likely adultery rates, as well), there remain countless marriages which are faithful and monogamous.
Couldn't agree more. But there are also countless faithful and monogamous relationships within the GLBT community. Just as you, rightly so, object to this argument against the heterosexual concept of marriage, I also, rightly so, object to its use for heterosexual superiority.

I know that that many GLBT people live in monogamous relationships. The word “desire” was not used to deny this fact. And I don’t give my respect because it is required. I’m not sure what comments you are able to receive graciously from those who differ from you on this issue.
That, I think we could say, was nit-picking every "jot and tittle" of your post. It's just as (in)effective in examining posts as it is in examining scripture. I'm sorry for being so literal. It is not an admirable trait.

You are delightful!
Okay, but that was disengenuous - wasn't it? I think you'd find very, very few to agree with you if you were serious, BTW.

If so, I would have expected you to show a little more grace to those you perceive to be your enemies.
There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, how can any one of us criticize the rest of us.
Quite easily, it seems.
Guilty as charged - no excuses.

From your follow up post:
The question is this: how many of you have good relationships with people who share my foundational beliefs? How do you discuss the issues in a positive way with them, refraining from attacks or assumptions, anger or bruised feelings on either side?
I think if you checked the frankandcathy posts and threads, you'd find I can be very respectful and supportive of positions that are somewhat different than my own. You would never guess it from the particular post in question (again, shame on me), but I value approaching people I disagree with from a stance that is humble and inquiring, as opposed to pontificating. I have a lot of time for an ethic of inquiry, and very little for an ethic of certitude. Obviously, I don't always live up to my values. Right now, "all have fallen short..." seems inadequate as a reason for that.

[Zerbie]

(((((((((((( David )))))))))))))

:love: :pray: :love: :pray:

[BronzDragon]

It makes me feel invisible. It makes me feel disposable. And it enrages me. Your light, airy, vague, and insubstantial postings to THIS thread THIS week make me feel invisible and my experience disposable. They feel arrogant and slickly, subtly, sweetly ... violent.


» Thom says: ☛ :love: :cookie: :flower2: This is where the teachings of Buddha come into value. We attach so much importance to our own existence, when we are only here for the moment, and gone the next. I deeply understand the pain you feel … I have felt it too. But what can you really do about someone else’s attitudes toward you? I drive a bus in a somewhat busy community, and often feel the other drivers can’t see me. (We’ve had several accidents caused by other drivers who say much the same thing, they couldn’t see the bus.)

Again, what can you really do about their attitudes? Not much, really. You can understand them, or you can reflect their attitudes back to them. And what would either of those things actually do for you or them? You could look within yourself, and find the peace you need to live through those moments when you are but a shadow in other people’s lives. Then, maybe just them, you can be the one event in their lives that makes a difference.

What will you really do? What can you really do? Find your peace, your light, and then ….

[Blossom]

Hi David,

I think I understand your frustration with my "sort of" participating in this conversation. I have put a great deal of time into such discussions in the past and am attempting to limit myself now, as I do not have the time (and am not sure that any benefit would be had by my working to be fully involved here). With some of the bad conversations that have come in the past, I had hoped that discussing some topics that don't touch directly on the nerve might be helpful in building trust as we realize that despite extreme differences, we can still find ways to communicate, even if only on lower levels.

I repeatedly find it almost impossible to communicate my real thoughts and feelings without being face to face. Usually, I love putting my thoughts on paper, but somehow, here, it hasn't worked. I don't know if you have found the same thing to be true for you. Perhaps it is more difficult for me to translate my feelings through words here because in many cases, our vocabularies aren't the same. It's easy to communicate with people who think like you--they not only understand your thought process and ways of phrasing statements, but also fill in the blanks. In many cases here, it seems to be a question of: will we give one another the benefit of the doubt when we don't fully understand each other? Often, we don't (yes, myself included).

You made this comment: "However, until you are ready to re-engage fully in the CURRENT conversation with the CURRENT participatipants and until you are ready to fully rearticulate your beliefs and arguments... maybe it would be best if you just listened?" Here is a point to consider--most people who disagree with you on the issue of homosexuality are not going to put as much of themselves into the discussion as will you. The average joe/jane on the street has work, kids, bills, etc. that fill their minds. For some people, even attempting to think about these issues is a step forward. Other people have their own issues they are passionate about, which they throw themselves into. I guess I'm asking, is there room on this forum, and in your life, for people who attempt to enter into dialogue without doing so as fully as you do?

Regarding your comment that: "Your light, airy, vague, and insubstantial postings to THIS thread THIS week make me feel invisible and my experience disposable. They feel arrogant and slickly, subtly, sweetly ... violent", my recent postings have attempted to not hit the nerve. Would you believe that my mother has often accused me of always hitting the nail on the head (when it would be better to be kinder and gentler). I'm was trying to avoid that here. In addition to not wanting to intentionally hurt or offend you, I also know that there will be 10 people available to pick apart each post I write. So, I am cautious in finding the clearest ways to express what I believe and am ready to say. I truly have not intended violence. I get peeved every once in a while, yes, and my responses indicate this. I continually wonder how it is possible to disagree with your foundational beliefs without it coming off as violent.

There are issues that I strongly stand for, some that are very personal. Although I have come to the point where I can (often) hear opposing views to those ideas which I am passionate about without feeling personally attacked, I do realize that I am more sensitive on such issues when I feel I am standing alone.

If insecurities (not a negative word here) are what cause us to react more strongly to others, and if it can be assumed that many here have reason to feel insecure in trusting people of different mindsets, then I continue to wonder how it is possible to have open, honest discussions which reflect radically different mindsets without every word and thought coming across as violent.

Blossom

[Dash]

:love: :love: You are all so dear to me for bearing with me and restraining such passions in the face of temptation! I must admit that I often don't read these kinds of threads these days, because I'm not sure I'm ready to feel the heat of the indignations that have swept me away in the past.

Just writing about nonviolence the other day over at Ex-Gay Watch, had my heart pounding...nearly bursting out of my chest... long after I had turned out the light. I'm always a bit afraid that I will not be able to sleep if I read these things before I go to bed. Ugh!

So for now, I leave these debates in stronger and more capable hands, though even Gandhi (yup...still creeping through his autobiography) believed that no heart would ever be won by debates.

On the actual topic of this thread, I remembered today how much I hated myself in my twenties....desperately hated myself. I think that being reconciled with my faith began when I gave up that self-hatred. Even now, it is a solemn point of mine to never ever, ever, ever disparage my own affections...even when the object is unattainable or when others chastise me. It is my capacity to love, and I will not kill it. Likewise, I refuse to discourage others when they show obvious affection for me which I cannot return. It is their capacity to love, and I respect their affections because I hated mine for so long.

That old line about loving your neighbor as yourself, was never quite as straightforward for me as others made it seem. I mean...I hated myself. How was I to even begin to love others?

(I'm much better now) :lol: :rolleyes: :love:

[Daniel]

For one who has stuggled to love and be loved..

To a Poet a Thousand Years Hence
by James Elroy Flecker

I who am dead a thousand years,
And wrote this sweet archaic song,
Send you my words for messengers
The way I shall not pass along.

I care not if you bridge the seas,
Or ride secure the cruel sky,
Or build comsummate palaces
Of metal or of masonry.

But have you wine and music still,
And statues and a bright-eyed love,
And foolish thoughts of good and ill,
And prayers to them who sit above?

How shall we conquer?
Like a wind that falls at eve our fancies blow,
And old Maeonides the blind
Said it three thousand years ago.

O friend unseen, unborn, unknown,
Student of our sweet English tongue,
Read out my words at night alone:
I was a poet, I was young.

Since I can never see your face
And never shake you by the hand,
I send my words through time and space
To greet you.

You will understand.

May you dream the dreams of Men and Angels. For sleep is a reconciling.

[Blossom]

Daniel, why is that we grate on each other so? However, your comment below is true.


What you see as truth is experienced as condemnation.

Which brings me again to the questions that have been raised for me: how do opposing views communicate when one's truth is another's condemnation? But then, we all have truths that are received by others as a condemnation, whether on a small or grand scale. However, I am not starting a new thread on this, but just for you, I will stop responding to others just in case it might stray from the original intent of this post. If the members of this forum are interested in discussing the questions I have raised, they will. The question isn't for me to answer or guide.

You have come here looking for what? Debate? That is one word you have used. Yet, when you posted on this thread and then were challenged on your statement by me, for all intent and purposes, you shrank from that debate, that is, until I called you on it. Is it possible that you enjoy the thrust and parry, the heat annd battle of words?

In the past, I loved debate. But it wasn't my goal during these recent postings--or I actually would have debated. I used the word "debate" because it commonly occurs here and on every site like this, even when it wasn't the original intention. Please, don't be so quick to grab a single word like a bulldog and shake it 'till you get the result you want.

I'm still surprised that you were surprised that I do not support gay marriage. I really thought you remembered prior conversations. However, in the past, I believe I have also shared my occassional leaning toward separating religious and legal marriage, which would allow the church to continue in what it can support while leaving the government to make its own decision on gay marriage. I'm still thinking through these issues, so I don't state them boldly.


So I must ask, why do you come here, if not to complain- as you have- that you are treated unkindly? If I have been so unkind, why do you come back? What do you seek? If not reconciliation, what?

Hope is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune--without the words,
And never stops at all,

And sweetest in the gale is heard;
And sore must be the storm
That could abash the little bird
That kept so many warm.

Emily Dickinson

[Zerbie]

Dear David - Ya got those prayers. :love: :pray: :pray: :pray:


Dash - I love you. And your experience, as you describe, sounds exactly like how my own was until my mid-20s. It was a life-death fight to be able to not hate my capacity to love people. Should never be stomped on.

For the rest of this thread - I am so far beyond tired it's not even funny, so I won't take this on.

I AM glad we are having this conversation and I hope we can all grow to be more compassionate, open, and understanding for having it.
:pray: :pray: :pray:

[Blossom]

just a small addition to this thread...

As I was reading some new threads here with interest, I revisited this thread to reread some of the dialogue...just looking to see if time will give more perspective on what happens when opposing viewpoints collide in one huge trainwreck. I want to go on record thanking Andrew for his very gracious post sometime back. I responded to him privately, but realize that his post certainly deserved an open "thank you". Plus, I've enjoyed his postings elsewhere. So, thanks for your critical thinking all around, Andrew.

I also noticed the somewhat recent confusion on "The Gay Agenda" thread (I think I have the title right) in response to Cathy's comments. Shocking, how words and sentiments can be misunderstood. It reminds me of the need for active listening. Even though it may feel unnatural, it is good to say, "What I hear you saying is...", and then wait to hear the response before making assumptions or judgements. Perhaps this could have helped this in thread, as well.

Blessings to all.

[Daniel]

Blossom- I find it curious that your post, while thanking Andrew for his kindness to you, also contains words which I addressed to you on another thread, those being the two words 'active listening'. Seeing that you use these same two words to comment on the interaction between parties on this thread (a matter which was resolved without your assistance) in a way which amounts to a reprimand, I question your motivation for posting at all. I will not speculate on why you may have done so, but will state that I can no longer engage you in good faith.

[Blossom]

Blossom- I find it curious that your post, while thanking Andrew for his kindness to you, also contains words which I addressed to you on another thread, those being the two words 'active listening'. Seeing that you use these same two words to comment on the interaction between parties on this thread (a matter which was resolved without your assistance) in a way which amounts to a reprimand, I question your motivation for posting at all. I will not speculate on why you may have done so, but will state that I can no longer engage you in good faith.

Daniel,

Quite simply, I had forgotten that you had mentioned active listening, and even now, do not specifically remember the context. I studied active listening in a pastoral counseling class in seminary. Nothing deep--just the main idea. I remember how it sounded silly at first, but am now continually reminded of how important it really is. As for your response that the matter was resolved without my assistance, I was also thinking of the difficulties between the two of us. I often find that you do not understand what I am saying or where I am coming from, and I would guess that you have experienced the same from me, so it would seem that active listening could possibly be of help. My comments here were not intended to be rude, and I am not sure how they could cause offense.

[Daniel]

Blossom- I do not expect every post of mine to be remembered, but I did spend a considerable amount of time and energy replying to you only a few days ago on your own thread- answering a question you asked. I am sorry that you seem to have thought so little of my efforts that they went in one ear and out the other. Had you given my answer as much attention as I gave your question, you would know what I'm referring to.

Our beloved Dash has implored us all to be careful about squashing your petals, and out of respect for him, I will heed his words. That said, I can no longer be at peace and engage you.

May blessings be upon you.

[Blossom]

Blossom- I do not expect every post of mine to be remembered, but I did spend a considerable amount of time and energy replying to you only a few days ago on your own thread- answering a question you asked. I am sorry that you seem to have thought so little of my efforts that they went in one ear and out the other. Had you given my answer as much attention as I gave your question, you would know what I'm referring to.

Daniel,

While I do appreciate that you attempted to answer my question regarding how people of opposing viewpoints can communicate, there were parts of your post that I did not connect with. This isn't unusual, and I sense that others reading my posts here rarely connect with the majority of my points, either. Perhaps I should have asked you to explain where you were going and why it was a response to my question. Your comment on active listening, in particular, came at the end of a long post. Just above the comment regarding active listening, you had attempted to discuss the poem I quoted, but you somehow missed the obvious point I was making: that I continue to attempt conversation simply because I [I]hope[I] that it will one day bear fruit. I had not assigned myself to be the bird in the poem, and the issue of inner voice had nothing to do with where I was going with it or with what I was hoping to hear regarding real conversation. I used the poem, not as an opportunity for logically breaking down all the possible meanings (as you would in an English class), but as a simple way to express the feeling within my heart--and feelings often cannot be dissected.

And lastly, you end your post with the allusion of hope, though you do not state what you hope for. That said, another reading of Dickison's poem suggests that you are the little bird who finds herself in circumstances or situations (abashed means: ashamed or uneasy) where it is hard to hear one's inner voice.

Would this be so, I can only offer in response that, at least for me (I teach singing after all), finding one's voice- whether outer or inner (a matter of contemplation) - entails active listening, which requires skill, patience, self-awareness and the proper attitude (posture). Unfortunately, those who declaim the loudest listen the least, rendering all who hear them, and themselves, deaf with their caterwaulling. The most beautiful voices, however, whether in life or art, arise out of silence, and reflect and inspire what can only be called Love.


You referred to using active listening as a method for finding one's inner voice. This really wasn't answering my question (as I saw it). Perhaps it expressed ideas you wanted to get across, but it was not expressed in a way that I connected it to my original question. So, I did not file the comment away, simply because I never caught hold of what you were getting at or why it was important to the specific question. When I used the term "active listening" later, I mentioned it as a simple way to relieve the problems of speaking past one another, which does deal with my original question. If you want to further explain where you were going with the idea of inner voice in relation to sharing our opposing beliefs with one another, I'm listening.

The question that I earnestly would like to hear discussion on is this: how do we interact with one another, truly listening to what each has to say without taking offense and reacting harshly? How do we hear viewpoints that we do not agree with, while maintaining respect for the person who holds that point of view? And specifically, in the life of each person here, what are some examples in which you have a positive, strong relationship with someone who disagrees with you on the foundational issue of this site? Do you find that you speak the same language?--do you understand each other, or feel the need to clarify often?

Back to the poem:
Honestly, Daniel, your desire to read more into my use of the poem threw me off, leaving me to wonder how communication is possible. I also sensed that if I said, "Daniel, I was just making a simple point", you would look down on me for not looking at the poem as you do. The fact that you have made me to feel that you look down on me in the past has made me feel that I cannot safely and openly communicate with you.

[Daniel]

Daniel,
Perhaps I should have asked you to explain where you were going and why it was a response to my question. Your comment on active listening, in particular, came at the end of a long post.

Yes- I wish you would have done that, because in not doing what you have asserted others do not do enough with you (that is, ask you what you mean), those two words- active listening (which are not your average-every-day-ones), came across, when embedded in a post which chides others, as a snide comment on the post that they originated from.

If you would have been honest from the beginning, I would not have responded as I did.

Let's not forget how you did respond after I questioned you about the use of those two words: you said you had forgotten that I had used them. This strains the bounds of what is believable.

It isn't unreasonable to posit that those words did stick in your ear, that you did feel as though I was questioning your abilty to do what the words implied, and being offended that I would say as much when you considered youself already trained in such matters, responded to a perceived slight by using the same terms to make your point that I and others on this thread where not doing what felt accused of.

Just above the comment regarding active listening, you had attempted to discuss the poem I quoted, but you somehow missed the obvious point I was making: that I continue to attempt conversation simply because I [I]hope[I] that it will one day bear fruit. I had not assigned myself to be the bird in the poem, and the issue of inner voice had nothing to do with where I was going with it or with what I was hoping to hear regarding real conversation. I used the poem, not as an opportunity for logically breaking down all the possible meanings (as you would in an English class), but as a simple way to express the feeling within my heart--and feelings often cannot be dissected.

Au contraire. I did not miss your point at all. I ackowledged your use use of the word hope and went on to say that you did not state what you hoped for. And it is only now that you state what you hope for. And rather than 'dissect' the poem you used, I posited that, perhaps, unconsiously on you part, you were expressing a feeling of vulnernability- the image of the little bird in the storm being the most salient feature of the poem. I do not see how ackowledging such a feeling lessens you in any way. in fact, doing so only makes you human.

You referred to using active listening as a method for finding one's inner voice. This really wasn't answering my question (as I saw it). Perhaps it expressed ideas you wanted to get across, but it was not expressed in a way that I connected it to my original question. So, I did not file the comment away, simply because I never caught hold of what you were getting at or why it was important to the specific question. When I used the term "active listening" later, I mentioned it as a simple way to relieve the problems of speaking past one another, which does deal with my original question. If you want to further explain where you were going with the idea of inner voice in relation to sharing our opposing beliefs with one another, I'm listening.

Nope. Don't buy this line of thought either. I see this as just another way to cover up your reasons for being critical. And let's not forget what actually happened in regards to posts made to Cathy. Everybody said their piece, Cathy came back and clarified matters and life went on- thank you very much.

But no, here comes Blossom to hunt her whale.

Forget issues. How can anybody believe what you say, or even begin to trust you, when you can't even deal with your own (negative) feelings and projections?

Being able to do this is the answer to your question.

...how do we interact with one another, truly listening to what each has to say without taking offense and reacting harshly? How do we hear viewpoints that we do not agree with, while maintaining respect for the person who holds that point of view?

Becoming a student of nonviolence wouldn't hurt either.

For healthy communication, real-honest-to-god-communication, everyone has to 'own' their 'stuff'. Start dealing with that 'stuff' and you'll find me a willing participant.

[Zerbie]

And specifically, in the life of each person here, what are some examples in which you have a positive, strong relationship with someone who disagrees with you on the foundational issue of this site?

Blossom, you first.

Start the ball, rolling. . . .
Oh but - the question should have it's own thread. This one is for responding to a poll on a completely different subject. I suggest to get a real dialogue going on your question, make it its own new thread. Please.

[Blossom]

If you would have been honest from the beginning, I would not have responded as I did.

Agreed. However, there are so many points of logic and expression on which it is hard to connect with one another, it becomes difficult to delve into each one, and I don't want to come off as saying that your points are nonsensical, or that you have failed to express your point well. It's hard enough to communicate on a few points made, much less on every point. I find that each time I post, you come off to me as angry or disgusted or sure that I am a sneaky snake. I try to hold back so that I do not invite more of this.

Let's not forget how you did respond after I questioned you about the use of those two words: you said you had forgotten that I had used them. This strains the bounds of what is believable.

I had forgotten. I went back and reread your post carefully, and was able to remember what was going through my head during my first reading. Please don't call me a liar here. I did not consciously remember you talking about active listening. I did not remember you mentioning it, and even when rereading it, I did not remember the specific words coming from you.

It isn't unreasonable to posit that those words did stick in your ear, that you did feel as though I was questioning your abilty to do what the words implied, and being offended that I would say as much when you considered youself already trained in such matters, responded to a perceived slight by using the same terms to make your point that I and others on this thread where not doing what felt accused of.

That wasn't part of my thought process originally. I suppose you intended to make the point, and I missed it.



Au contraire. I did not miss your point at all. I ackowledged your use use of the word hope and went on to say that you did not state what you hoped for. And it is only now that you state what you hope for. And rather than 'dissect' the poem you used, I posited that, perhaps, unconsiously on you part, you were expressing a feeling of vulnernability- the image of the little bird in the storm being the most salient feature of the poem. I do not see how ackowledging such a feeling lessens you in any way. in fact, doing so only makes you human.

I am indeed vulnerable and very human, however it was not the point I was making regarding one of my favorite poems. Although there is much that I can bring out from the image of that determined little bird (and I can see now how vulnerability could be one aspect), my simple point was that I continue to hope. As I flesh out the thought, I can see that I continue to hope even when there is no reason to hope--but then of course, that is almost the definition of hope. It isn't logical, it doesn't continue on because statistics indicate that a positive result is likely. Hope simply hopes.


Nope. Don't buy this line of thought either. I see this as just another way to cover up your reasons for being critical. And let's not forget what actually happened in regards to posts made to Cathy. Everybody said their piece, Cathy came back and clarified matters and life went on- thank you very much.

I was very surprised how people reacted to her post. That in itself gives me less reason to hope. I read her post two or three times originally to see what she was getting at (before I read anyone else's post--I went in order). There was a little doubt in my mind, but I felt that I understood what she was saying. And what I originally read turned out to jive with her explanation and with Andrew's logical read of it. I really was surprised and a bit horrified that so many jumped on the bandwagon to blast her. I've been on the receiving end of such an experience in years past--it was tough. Although what Cathy was perceived to say definitely hit a nerve, I still look back at the post and think it was clearer than people gave it credit for. You clearly think that this is none of my business, but when I see another person blasted, it makes it difficult to trust that if I have a moment of not speaking clearly, that I will not be prejudged, as well.

But no, here comes Blossom to hunt her whale.

Forget issues. How can anybody believe what you say, or even begin to trust you, when you can't even deal with your own (negative) feelings and projections?

Being able to do this is the answer to your question.

I don't understand you precise meaning here.



Becoming a student of nonviolence wouldn't hurt either.

For healthy communication, real-honest-to-god-communication, everyone has to 'own' their 'stuff'. Start dealing with that 'stuff' and you'll find me a willing participant.

What do you perceive to be my 'stuff"?


I don't quite know what to do here. I attempted to be open here, I was quite vulnerable in my last paragraph--more than was comfortable, and yet I met with as much distrust and what feels like hatred as ever. I don't know what to do with or how to speak to you.

[Daniel]

Round and round we go Blossom. Sorry, I've gone as far as I wanna go here. And farther than I said I would.

If you really don't understand what is meant by owning one's stuff or projections, I suggest you ask a qualified therapist. It's pretty simple really. To understand that is. Doing it? That's another matter. As I'm sure you know. And from my view point, its rather ironic that you should be asking me- the gay man who you have rather negative views about as far as God is concerned- for what he thinks about you. Do you really need my validation and acceptance that much? I know you want to communicate, but let's keep things in perspective. This site deals with religious intolerance and religious oppression, not your 'stuff'. We're not here to 'understand Blossom', even though I was foolish enough to start a whole thread on that topic months ago.

I don't hate you Blossom. You just make it very very hard to love you.

[Zerbie]

Blossom,

Why indeed don't you start a new thread with your particular questions/concerns? Draw out the rest of us into conversation, since clearly you and Daniel hit it off worse than oil and water. Perhaps you will be able to communicate more freely/comfortably/successfully with some of the others. Maybe Andrew --- you seem to like some of what he has had to say in the past.

I'm still interested to hear you answer your own question from a few posts back. That would make for a potentially VERY profitable discussion.

As for Cathy's post on The Gay Agenda, context and previous experience is everything. EVERY time I re-read the post under fire, it jumps out at me as about a 90% chance she was meaning all those things that some of us find very offensive. The reason I kept asking her to come back and clarify before I totally bought into my reactions? Context. I had seen many of Cathy's posts and she had started out with a lot of my trust. Nothing before that post had challenged the trust I had in her, although much had made me angry a few times. Then Cathy graciously came back to clarify her meaning for those of us who misinterpreted it (which she didn't have to do), and accordingly has won our (well, at least my) trust back. Because I knew her, albeit only a little, I waited to see if I was wrong before slamming the door shut entirely. I'm glad she's back. I really like Cathy.

Let us get to know you, if you are willing. I still don't have any sense of who you, Blossom, are, or what you're about. Talk to us about you a little more.

[Blossom]

Let us get to know you, if you are willing. I still don't have any sense of who you, Blossom, are, or what you're about. Talk to us about you a little more.

Hi Zerbie,

I did post on the other thread, although I'm not sure how productive it will be--I don't know that I answered my own question...but I did make a few other points worthy of thought (basically what we already know, without love, discussion will begin with fear and end with distrust. In fact, what I'm thinking about now, is that it is easiest either to disagree with those with whom you have nothing invested, or those on the opposite end of the spectrum whom you fully trust and love. Hmmm...should have said that over yonder.)

Hmmm...who am I.
I've always been unique, sensitive, expressive. I hurt for those who are overlooked or who don't seem to have a chance.

And I hold to a favorite saying from the past, "Stand up for what is right, even if you are standing alone."

[Zerbie]

Thank you, Blossom. I enjoyed reading your (unofficial) introduction.

:)

[Blossom]

Thank you, Blossom. I enjoyed reading your (unofficial) introduction.

:)

thanks...I may feel uncomfortable putting myself out there this much and erase it tomorrow!

BTW, thanks for a nice opportunity for discussion. It was really appreciated.

[Zerbie]

Oh! It's gone already. Well, I appreciated the glimpse into what makes you "tick."

I guess I understand the discomfort with being open publicly - having continually done so here over a year+, it's a very exposed feeling. Kind of like - why on EARTH did I just say that ON THE INTERNET!!!???

The only thing is, when we're talking back and forth here, there is a level of uncertainty about the communication when the background information is slim. Not to accuse you for holding back because it is your choice and your right to maintain your privacy, but do keep in mind that it may make for a more difficult time understanding each other, and cause the rest of us to make more assumptions, b/c our minds simply need SOMEthing to grasp onto in order to think/talk verbally. It's in the nature of the situation, not the people.

Sorry if you felt over-exposed. I hope we'll be able to talk more easily in future.

[andrewlittle]

You have shown glimpses of yourself that are self-revealing, but none of what you shared can be used against you.

There is now something just a tad more intimate to associate with the name "Blossom". There are things in your self-description that, I think, each and every person can equate with on some basis. When you see even small similarities in each others faces (okay words), I think that makes it very difficult to disrespect someone.

Thank you for stepping out in courage (I know it can be difficult for a private person) and allowing us the privilege of knowing you a little better.

This isn't emotional blackmail, by the way. I, for one, will not think less of you if you decide to delete the post. That is yours, and yours alone, to decide. I just feel privileged to have read it.

[Blossom]

Thank you for stepping out in courage (I know it can be difficult for a private person) and allowing us the privilege of knowing you a little better.

This isn't emotional blackmail, by the way. I, for one, will not think less of you if you decide to delete the post. That is yours, and yours alone, to decide. I just feel privileged to have read it.

Hi guys, I deleted most last night lest someone copy my own words into their post. I didn't say anything earthshattering, I know. However, most of the people I interact w/here were on last night, so I used the post more as verbal words, here now, gone later.

Thanks guys, for your words. I'm not eager to share a lot, partly because as a minister, I already live in a glass house, and because of trust issues on this very site, as well as the fact that this is open to the world. Plus, and I think Daniel would agree, this isn't the Blossom show. ;)

As far as not sharing anything that can be used against me, that hasn't been much of a problem here. Also, what I did share points to some of both my positive and weakest traits.

Blessings to all.

[TigerXero]

Wow... I'm not even going to try to read all of the arguing that's above this post. Anyway, this is my first post, and I found Soulforce through my own search to reconcile my faith and religion.

I would have to say that right now, being 18, and recently having to come out to my parents and deal with this issue on a religious level (while dating my first and I believe only boyfriend as we're so committed to each other and want to be together forever), I have found reconciliation in point number 4, interpretation.

I would like to say that it was a very distressing time trying to do this. Looking to the Bible (New International Version), I could find nothing on my own to help me believe God didn't condemn my behavior. I was becoming increasingly distressed as my mom gave me Ex-Gay material, which I just ignored, and I suppose she didn't know what else to do, and it got to the point where my boyfriend and I broke-up temporarily so that I could sort out this issue for myself. Being raised Baptist and Evangelical, there wasn't any other way my brain could really rationalize my lifestyle and my faith without finding reconciliation through what the scripture says (although I did come close to losing my faith altogether at one point). It's truly distressing (and very stressful on a gay relationship) when I couldn't find any reason in the Bible to believe that this was okay in the eyes of God as I understood them. I couldn't bring myself to just make it a non-issue; even if God gives grace, we can't abuse that grace nor can we continue to live in sin once we know we are being sinful. These beliefs, the supposed inerrancy of the Bible, the blanket condemnation of homosexuality by my religion['s majority] and other factors were causing me to lose all hope.

However, thank God to places such as soulforce.org and truthsetsfree.net among other online sources, where I was able to logically conclude for myself, after scholarly analysis of the scripture, that God did not condemn my relationship. With the thought that I might just be desperate for an answer and was not be able to analyze information I was being presented with without emotional bias, I shared this information with friends and we have been studying this progressive ideology for over a month now.

As for now, my main struggle is to get my parents to see this logic, and hopefully, somehow reveal this truth to my extended family. This is the minimum that I want, but I would love to help others see what I have come to see, although I realize, as previous posts have said, that this can become tiresome if you must do this with every person who doesn't see eye to eye with you. I suppose eventually once my family [hopefully] supports my boyfriend and me despite their conservative upbringing, all I can ask for is to be a part of an affirming Church.

[Zerbie]

Wow, Tiger. Great intro!!

Best to you as you study, pray, and continue reconciling the many facets of your experience. You sound to be on a good track. Keep up the courage!

Just wanted to say welcome to the forum. Saw your profile: DDR rocks!! Even if I *am* over 30, I hafta say if I could rationalize the expense of investing, I would get a home version. :p

[Daniel]

Tiger- great post! And again- welcome (saw you in purgatory)!

Thank you for sharing your story. It took me much longer to reconcile matters. At that time (the dark ages) there was little to go on- no websites, no Soulforce, little progressive theology or ideology. There was but one source that helped me and became my lifeline, and that was the writing of John Boswell. His tome, Christianity Social Tolerance and Homosexuality, was the first of its kind. It sent shock waves through academia and the brains of gay people everywhere. And it didn't hurt that he was cute and blond! :lol:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/index-bos.html

I join you in prayer that your family will embrace and come to see the light within you.

[tdogg]

Tiger- great post! And again- welcome (saw you in purgatory)!

Thank you for sharing your story. It took me much longer to reconcile matters. At that time (the dark ages) there was little to go on- no websites, no Soulforce, little progressive theology or ideology. There was but one source that helped me and became my lifeline, and that was the writing of John Boswell. His tome, Christianity Social Tolerance and Homosexuality, was the first of its kind. It sent shock waves through academia and the brains of gay people everywhere. And it didn't hurt that he was cute and blond! :lol:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/index-bos.html

I join you in prayer that your family will embrace and come to see the light within you.

Welcome Tiger! And excellent reference Daniel - one of the best books out there!

[TigerXero]

I'd just like to note it was about a period of three months over which all this turmoil occurred. I wasn't aware this was a "short" time to find a way to start reconciling one's beliefs, but perhaps it is.

I'd also like to say I do have occassional doubts (largely influenced by beliefs of parents), and I'm still searching for answers and rationale in what I believe and on what the Bible says (and what has happened throughout history; for example, gay history, the history of the Church's stance on homosexuality, etc.). It's quite an undertaking, and I... I don't know. I certainly wish things weren't so grey!

[Daniel]

Hi Tink- welcome to the forum.

You mentioned having your own issues with coming to terms with all these issues. There is a lot to take on, and all that investigation has the tendency to stretch one's mind in many directions, not all of them anticipated. Personally, I found this to be a wonderful thing, so much so, that I am very thankful for being gay. I see it as a gift. There are worlds I would have never had the inkling to investigate otherwise.

For my generation- I am in my 40's- the baby was very often thrown out with the bath water. Being gay and part of a christian community wasn't accepted or even imagined. That's not to say that it didn't exist, only that in many people's minds, being gay meant that one had to leave the church if one did not stay in the closet- one could be fairly hounded out. That's changed in many denominations and places. Perhaps not in fundamentalist churches per se. But even there is change. The rhetoric has gone from 'you-are-damned-for being-gay' to a grudging acceptance that says 'gay-people-are born-that-way..... just-don't-act-on-it'. The latter may not seem like progress, but advances in psychology, medicine and biology, have made their mark all the same.

And Tiger- please forgive the humor- but grey goes really well with orange. Very 1930's Deco.

[TigerXero]

None taken.

[Zerbie]

Hi Tink and welcome,

thoughtful first post. :) :cool:

Yeah Tiger, 3 months is a VERY short time. I spent about 2 years privately struggling in my own head over what being gay was, whether bisexuals existed, if there might maybe be something wrong about it after all, etc. . . before I started getting comfortable with having the questions just in the privacy of my heart. And those 2 years, compared to the timing of many people I know, are short. I have friends who spent 5 years, 10 years, or more, ACTIVELY TRYING to change, before they were even willing to consider that maybe they were OK already.

I think you can safely expect to still be reconciling things, having new questions and ideas pop into your mind, for some time longer. That's okay. We don't have to get it all figured out real fast, even though we always want to. :p Uncertainty is okay, too.

You sound confident, like you really have a strong sense of who you are. That will only help you in this matter, as in others, throughout your life.

:cool:

[TigerXero]

I really wasn't aware of how long it takes some people, but I guess I wouldn't have anyone to know from, and of course, I wouldn't expect to not to continue to have questions about [such controversial] things.

Also, thanks to everyone for making me feel so welcomed on the forums. It was very nice to see such a warm welcome.

[Daniel]

A significant article on ex-gay therapies appears in today's NYTimes. Just so no one thinks that the Northeast is somehow immune to efforts by conservatives to change gay people to straight, you will find the name and locations of who is doing what here. There are plenty of organizatons and persons involved in religious oppression.

If you have the same discomforting feeling upon reading this article, you will not be alone. Articles written in the way this one is don't come off as sounding fair or balanced, even though they always mention that the scientific/theraputic community advise against efforts to change sexual orientation. Why?

What is missing in articles like this is the recognition that religious oppression is behind the ex-gay movement itself. No one wants to call it for what it is.

Ignoring religious oppression and hate has nothing to do with freedom of religion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/nyregion/12group.html

Some Tormented by Homosexuality Look to a Controversial Therapy

[shadeseraph]

Hi,

I am closer to number 4. It has taken me a long time to reconcile my spirituality with my faith. But I have crossed that milestone of grace some years ago. I do believe I was "chosen" to be gay and that being gay has brought me much grace. In the Resurrection there will only be love so I see no conflict in this life or the next.

I had to struggle for a while with being a "worthy" clergyman but now I see Jesus's face in that also. I think reconciliation only comes with prayer and bringing all parts of yourself to Jesus. Perhaps if I had been straight I would not know God so profoundly. Lately in my life I have decided to seek in spirit and pray for a loving soulmate to share my life in some way. I already have a person I have fallen in love with whom I share a very special relationship though it is not sexual. I feel perhaps I am to have this other I seek in my life. Anyway I am confident enough in God now to have no problem as a gay person asking God to send this person into my life as a grace.

Peace,
shadeseraph
________
Uggs (http://uggstoreshop.com/)

[Zerbie]

Oh god Daniel that article makes me so sad!! :'(

It is just horrifying that people are taught to feel such shame in themselves they would actually pay that much money to a "therapist" to change them. :mad: I question anyone who would charge that much money to change someone's ability to love and be loved. I'm tempted to say, send their clients over to my house, we'll cook dinner and talk for a while, and it'll be free.

Really breaks my heart. And this article is timely, considering that Love Won Out was just here in my town the other day.

Really, these folks need to leave people alone to find their own way, and stop pressuring them to be straight, or to 'pass', or into a lifetime of celibacy when they would prefer to have a loving relationship.

:pray:

[keltic63]

The saddest statement was that of Mr. Larsen saying that his same sex attraction was now "just a matter of noticing" What he is describing is just repression of himself. What he doesn't know is that the offspring of that represssion will be a generalized depression that may well threaten his life. How many years of his young life will be squandered in loneliness, guilt, self-loathing and depression before he discovers what was done to him and what he has done to himself.

I speak from experience!


it nearly killed me.

David, I'm glad you're here. I've read that we both had the same problem, and resolved it differently, but the important thing is that we acknowledge who we really are, and live happy healthy lives.

[BrianB]

Listening to Mel White along with many others has changed the way which I view the "clobber passages" of the bible. Most of those passages were for a specific time and for a specific group of people. They don't apply any more than the passage about stoning rebellious children.

Being in a loving committed relationship drew me closer to God, not farther away. It was a relationship where we met the other's needs first at least in the bedroom. Unfortunately we grew apart in other areas.

[Zerbie]

Thought maybe we'd bump this and maybe Innout might wander over here. . . .

[Gennee]

#1.
I discovered that I was transgendered and a crossdresser two years ago. When I admitted this to myself all the stress and tension disappeared. God never rejected me and he doesn't reject anyone who comes to him.

I feel happy and complete since that day. God loves LGBT people and that is something that I believe wholeheartedly.

Gennee

:)

[mommy2jb3]

The rest are explained by the original poll.

What now?!? is the fact that the others all started coming together 2 months into marriage. I didn't feel safe enough to start acknowledging my emotions, the reasons for complicated friendships, etc. until AFTER I was married...

So, I engaged in the whole shaming, guilt, grieving thing due to that... but that's more than 8 years ago... and time has a way of bringing partial healing... now I'm ready for a little more

Thanks for the thought-provoking question!

[Blockwell]

I suppose #13 is the closest:

13. Divorce: Faith was unable to be reconciled or to adequately address my sexuality. Therefore I no longer consider myself a person of faith.

I grew up in a nominal Christian family. We attended a liberal neighborhood church (Reformed Church of America) until I was eight years old and then we stopped going. I think my parents just thought it was a good idea to take their kids to church. From what little I remember it felt more like a large social club for the neighborhood. My parents never practiced their faith and the only prayers I can recall were on Thanksgiving and Christmas and that was just for show.

One of the earliest memories I have took place in Sunday School when I was about six or seven years old. I remember the teacher was telling us a Bible story and I found it so unbelievable that I recall looking around the room for a camera. Why? Because I thought Alan Funt might just break through a door and scream “Smile, you’re on Candid Camera!” (I hope some of you are old enough to get the reference). It was program designed to embarrass gullible people on national television and I thought this must be a set up. What I am trying to get at is that I never really believed any of it. It was just too incredible for me to take seriously.

For those of you who have read other posts of mine you know that I joined the Mormon Church when I turned 16. After reading what I just wrote it would seem ridiculous for me to do such a thing, but fear and desperation make people do odd things. I wanted to be straight and I obviously needed help. I could not tell anyone about my problem so I searched out what I thought was an organization that could “repair” me without having to divulge my secret. The fact that our neighbor was Mormon and would drive me to church was probably the deciding factor in why I chose Mormonism. (Really) During my two year stay with the Mormons I did my best to believe. I looked for signs that God was working in my life and thought I found some. I trusted the testimony of others. Any unusual emotional response was relegated to the work of the Holy Spirit. I tried, I really tried to believe.

Eventually I had a breakdown on the way to church and could not stop crying. I knew it was not going to work. I was gay and that was all there was to it. This was 1978 and the gay movement was just getting some steam. For the first time I was able to read stories about gays and lesbians that were not negative. I read about men who led lives I could see myself emulating. I did not need to try and change anymore, I could be myself. I no longer needed anyone to fix me. The need for the church was gone. I reverted back to my old skeptical self and never looked back.

[antonyh]

I progressed through various stages.

Age 11-23

6. Exception: I am a faithful believer ... devout in everyway. My sexuality, while being unacceptable to God, is my one apparent weakness ... the thorn in my side.

Age 24-28

2. No Reconciliation: I have not reconciled my faith and my sexuality. It still provides great anxiety for me since i am a "practicing homo/bi-sexual".

Age 29-32

4. Interpretation: New Biblical insights into the context and content of various Biblical passages regarding sexuality helped me to understand that homosexuality is not against God's will and infact may be what God intended for my life.

Age 32+

7. Spirituality: The inner voice of my own spiritual practice has brought harmony to my faith and sexuality. I do not feel the need for "correct" Biblical interpretation.

Very insightful poll. I think it shows how long and steep the journey is for some of us.

[cousin.of.zuzu]

I'm somewhere between a 4 and a 10. I seem to go back and forth between the two and spend time in the 10 zone when thinking about telling my family...

[wmanion]

I am not sure where I am. I do know that I have accepted that I am gay and God has made me that way. So in that respect, I have reconcilled my self to God. However, I have not reconcilled myself to any belief systems of the faiths/religions that exist. Soulforce is the closest I have come to church in thirteen years. I am not even sure if Jesus intended for us to worship in houses of faith. He never said go out and build buildings to preach my word and have fellowship. From my understanding the church he was building was an invisible body, his bride, of believers from all walks of life. He never said stop worshipping in the temples, in fact, he had great respect for his father's house. However, the temples were for the Jewish people. I do miss the singing, the worship songs and many of the people. But I do not miss the codemnation, the judgement, and the oppression I felt for something I did not choose. Maybe I do fall in that chart somewhere, I am just not sure. Any thoughts?

Bill

[Zerbie]

I I am not even sure if Jesus intended for us to worship in houses of faith. He never said go out and build buildings to preach my word and have fellowship. From my understanding the church he was building was an invisible body, his bride, of believers from all walks of life. Bill

Yes, I believe so.

[Pablo Rafael]

I am not even sure if Jesus intended for us to worship in houses of faith. He never said go out and build buildings to preach my word and have fellowship. From my understanding the church he was building was an invisible body, his bride, of believers from all walks of life. l

Bill,

You make a very valid point. The "church" is the family of believers. It is not an organization or a building. Personally I am very much attached to the organized church. I love worshipping with others. I love the music, ceremony and fellowship. But also I see how much money and effort goes to keeping up buildings and supporting organizations. Sometimes I think the focus of the church strays away from the Gospel message and gets directed toward the church organization itself.

I do think it is important for people of faith to get together and strengthen each other and learn from each other. For some the organized church does not fit, but the "church" is still there among people of faith regardless of where they meet or who is included.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[tdogg]

The "church" is the family of believers. It is not an organization or a building. Personally I am very much attached to the organized church. I love worshipping with others. I love the music, ceremony and fellowship. But also I see how much money and effort goes to keeping up buildings and supporting organizations. Sometimes I think the focus of the church strays away from the Gospel message and gets directed toward the church organization itself.

I do think it is important for people of faith to get together and strengthen each other and learn from each other. For some the organized church does not fit, but the "church" is still there among people of faith regardless of where they meet or who is included.


Well said Pablo! At least with the churches (in the formal organized sense of the word) I've experienced, it's all about the power, money, popularity, and what have you done for the church lately mentality. But when one is just hangin' with their brothers and sisters, it becomes about the church in the sense that Jesus spoke - the actual people united in faith and love.