Canadians And Americans - A Difference In Strategy And Outcomes

[Liberal Crozier]

This is + Liberal Crozier. I wish to begin by thanking all of you for your continuing prayers. I have been allowed a few hours of ambulatory privileges
and a precious hour or so before you today.

It seems that many threads on this Soulforce Forum discuss both strategies and outcomes in the USA struggle for human and civil rights for the most recent oppressed minority on record....the LGBT community.

In terms of strategy, it is our studied Canadian opinion that a nation of nearly 300 million citizens and therefore, approximately 30 million LBGT citizens, that there are many strategies and many players in the mix. In fact, the USA LGBT reality includes a significant number of political activists and voters who support their oppressors - the theocon dominionists. The Bush Administration and their minions can count on a certain percentage of right wing gay and lesbian voters to promote and vote in their agenda.

Also, your political system does not allow for "mid-stream corrections" as do parliamentary systems. Maybe it is NOT coincidental that all nations who provide FULL MARRIAGE rights are all parliamentary governments. Also, your governmental structure provides for state sovereignity as a means of political compromise. The Jim Crow/Plessy reality in the Old Confederacy and the patchwork quilt of interracial marriage proscriptions until 1967 are examples of this fact. Also, there is a tendency among US state legislatures to allow controversial laws to remain as law even when they should have been rescinded decades ago. The Romney use of the 1913 racist law is such an example, and the adjudication is an example of theocon judicial victory.

Parliamentary systems allow for immediate and clear programmes of change. Majority governments require uniformity of voting support for the government party by front benchers and cabinet ministers and sub-ministers. Closed votes that speak to the votes of confidence are required. Minority governments, such as Neocon Harper, knows that his government would fall if he implemented the Notwithstanding Clause, or create havoc with the Marriage Act. Minority governments usually last months to a couple years.

We Canadians had only ONE acceptable outcome. Our gay-affirming church wing, led by the largest Protestant national denomination, our LBGT political and legal wings ALL spoke with ONE voice. It said this:

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms of the Canadian Constitution requires one law governing all citizens, with the same rights, nomenclature and privileges as any other citizen. No " lesser or amended " rights are acceptable or negotiable. Oh, and yes, P E R I O D AND E X C L A M A T I O N P O I N T. !!!!!!!!!

The Supreme Court of Canada agreed. The Parliament agreed. Royal Assent was given. Also, from 2003 decision in Ontario to the 2005 national law, we PROTECTED LIKE A LASER, our one victory against the theocons who knew that if they didn't stop us there, they would lose. They offered all forms of compromise. They always do, and they always lie.


It is now my belief, and the belief of many of our Canadian, Spaniard, Dutch, Belgian and maybe South African brothers and sisters that the American experience MUST procede as you seem to always insist upon. You will obviously move toward Plessy and Jim Crow laws that provide you with second and third-tier outcomes for many generations to come. You will accept these outcomes because the pragmatic, centrist and gentrified leaders know that political activism as in the sixties will not be achieved with this generation - with Soulforce exceptions, and within those guidelines.

Maybe, when our son has lived his life - gay or straight - in a Canadian egalitarian society - will he learn that the United States Supreme Court has declared the GAY PLESSY AND JIM CROW unconstitutional and that a new GAY BROWN has been promulgated. There will be another decade or so before a sole leader emerges to cross the River Jordan into a Promised Land enjoyed by many worldwide.

Yes, we Canadians have as many citizens (30 million ) as you have gays and lesbians, and our own population is about 3 million . We are similar in our goals and aspirations - but we Canadians do not only govern differently, speak differently, spell differently, and accept cultural diversity more easily given the consequences.....witness Quebec and Nunavut ..... but our acceptance of strategies and outcomes make us more different than a boat ride across a lake, or a drive across a highway.

Vive la difference.....Vive le Canada....Long live Canada.
Pray for the United States, and the eventual living of its Promise.

[Dash]

Greetings friend! :love: How good it is to feel your presence here!

Your words brought to mind one thought:

America is a very big ship. She does not change course quickly or easily. It's takes a great deal of time to build momentum and redirect it...sometimes more than a generation is needed. Alas...for those of us who seek change grow old even as we cry out, "How long?"

[Daniel]

Maybe it is NOT coincidental that all nations who provide FULL MARRIAGE rights are all parliamentary governments.

Parliamentary systems allow for immediate and clear programmes of change. Majority governments require uniformity of voting support for the government party by front benchers and cabinet ministers and sub-ministers.

Excellent observation! I agree with you whole heartedly re parlimentary governments. The do seem to be the structure by which gay rights can proceed most effectively.

I have often wondered how our dear President Bush would fare under a system where he would have to defend his postions in a worthright and public manner among his 'peers'. Not very well I imagine. There are advantages to a Parlimentary system were something resembling real debate takes place- or at least has the opportunity to do so- while everything about politics in the USA is oversripted, plotted (pun intended) and camera ready.

And as Dash puts it: we really are a big boat. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be the Titanic. Where are the lifeboats?

Liberal and Spouse- it is so good to hear from you. :love:

[Liberal Crozier]

This is Spouse+. +LC enjoyed the opportunity to share his views. Often, he admits that our theological opponents are not unaware of the gay-affirming theological apologetics. It is NOT that they do not understand, for example, the problem of Patriarchalism with the question of women in Orders or subjective implementation of the Holiness Code or the Pauline proscriptions.

Is it truly remarkable that the progeny of the Reformation - those oppressed and murdered at the stake by the Papal Inquisitions - have now become the oppressors - using modern applications of the same tactics and strategies.

Yes, while fundamentalist Islamic and subsaharan African "Christian" leaders still use the same rationale do literally do murder to gay and lesbians, the rest do spiritual and verbal murder - thereby creating the potential for some disturbed mind to go further - as in some obscure field in a WY summer evening.

Thank you, Dash and Daniel....for responding and being a handful even reading his contributions today. I do believe that the American ship of state has the potential to become a TITANIC where our brothers and sisters are concerned. +LC was extremely concerned about the views brilliantly expressed by the RevTJ when the gentrified activists were seemingly ceding the strategy to the far right. Today, it was again noted how many self-loathing gay men and women actually work for the fascists. Unfortunately, the American experience seems to have the Roy Cohns in every generation...and especially now. Today, I understand the latest one is a guy named Walton.

But before you are dismissive, please read about the Jim Crow Plessy years. It was more than a half century of oppression, murder and segregation. The world has often waited for the American dream to stop being a nightmare. It waited for an end to slavery, an end to Aboriginal genocide, and now an end to LGBT oppression.

I suspect that because we live in the 21st century and have access to each other in a very different and personal way - the thought that you will have to live in a country with no rights with a neighbour with all rights is somehow more oppressive than words can easily relate.

[Dash]

The trouble is...in a country of 50 states, 300 million people, and an excruciatingly slow political process--where the change process can take more than a generation--our spiritual leaders must not only coax the people into action, they eventually must pass their mantle on to others. We not only have to generate the steam to drive change, we must maintain it for a period that may very well exceed the active lifespan of those who had the wisdom, experience and initial motivation to lead. Moses may not be the one lead us over Jordan...very likely we must yet raise up our Joshua from among us.

Furthermore, even if we can create a wave of change energy that is both perceptible and long-lasting in society, America seems to require moments of extreme crisis to bring that power to crest. I don't know what that crisis will be for us, but (and I may be unduly cynical) I expect that it may be quite horrible. It is still shocking to me that our lovely Matthew Shepard's crucifixion was so easily dismissed by so many who oppose us. In the end, they would rather believe it was a drug crime than the hideous fruit of their own hatred that it truly was. If they can put our sorrow and suffering aside so easily, what will it take to truly touch their hearts? What high cross must they stand beneath to witness our passion? In a country that gobbles up the gore of Mel Gibson's movie, will the people ever be sensitive enough to recognize the violence they work against us?

Unchained Melody

Oh! My love, my darling,
I've hungered for your touch,
A long, Lonely time.
And time goes by, so slowly,
And time can do so much,
Are you still mine?
I need your love.
I need your love.
God, speed your love to me.

Lonely rivers flow to the sea, to the sea,
To the open arms of the sea.
Lonely rivers sigh, wait for me, wait for me,
I'll be coming home, wait for me.

Oh! My love, my darling,
I've hungered, for your touch,
A long lonely time.
And time goes by, so slowly,
And time can do so much,
Are you still mine?
I need your love.
I need your love.
God speed your love to me.


Wikipedia says of Unchained Melody: "Originally written by renowned film composer Alex North as a theme for the now obscure 1955 prison film Unchained, the lyrics by Hy Zaret tell of a prisoner's anguished longing for his wife."

Somewhere along the way, it became my hymn to God... God's hymn to me... It is our cry for our husbands and wives... It is our cry for the love of our Church, and our families... our cry for the love of our brothers and sisters...


God speed it to us.:'(

[Zerbie]

I don't know what that crisis will be for us, but (and I may be unduly cynical) I expect that it may be quite horrible. It is still shocking to me that our lovely Matthew Shepard's crucifixion was so easily dismissed by so many who oppose us. In the end, they would rather believe it was a drug crime than the hideous fruit of their own hatred that it truly was. If they can put our sorrow and suffering aside so easily, what will it take to truly touch their hearts? What high cross must they stand beneath to witness our passion? In a country that gobbles up the gore of Mel Gibson's movie, will the people ever be sensitive enough to recognize the violence they work against us?



Wikipedia says of Unchained Melody: "Originally written by renowned film composer Alex North as a theme for the now obscure 1955 prison film Unchained, the lyrics by Hy Zaret tell of a prisoner's anguished longing for his wife."

Somewhere along the way, it became my hymn to God... God's hymn to me... It is our cry for our husbands and wives... It is our cry for the love of our Church, and our families... our cry for the love of our brothers and sisters...


God speed it to us.:'(

(((Dash))) :love: Thank you for your prayer. Add mine. :pray:


Now, Crozier brought up the point of unanimity. That allies stood up in support of the LGBT community with "one voice." That certainly is lacking here in the US, as we argue amongst ourselves. How can that be changed?

[Liberal Crozier]

I got up to get our son some TLC after some "bad dream", and passed the computer in the study, and thought to add some thoughts....+LC is fast asleep, and mercifully so - after a difficult evening.

Zerbie - we are in the Soulforce forum. The logo is of Ghandi and of King. No, they were not the only significant activists in their particular struggles. Some were at odds with each other....so evident in the partititon of India following independence.....but all deferred to Ghandi as the leader. The same with the civil rights movement, but there is an MLK holiday to the exclusion of many others who fought either beside him, or found him a latecomer to the struggle and resented his primary role.

A MAJOR FAULT OF THE AMERICAN (USA) LGBT STRUGGLE IS THE PERCEPTION AND MAYBE A REALITY THAT IT IS A POLITICALLY SECULAR, PSYCHOLOGICAL AND LEGAL STRUGGLE, AND THAT THE PERCEPTION IS THAT THE SPIRITUAL ARGUEMENTS PRIMARILY AGREE WITH THE VIEWS ARTICULATED BY THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND FUNDAMENTALIST PROTESTANT CHRISTIANITY AND WITH THE RIGHT WING.

When IMHO, you have psychologists and lawyers and politicians directly confronting Jerry Falwell, or Dobson or Robertson, you have created the perception that our Christian position is weak and ineffective. When you have mainline jurisdictions either split, ambivalent, or equally hostile, then you make the arguement for them.

On CNN, it is often the breakdown - you have the secular activist - doctor, lawyer or such confronting the major or minor Ayatollahs of the Theocon Right Wing. The discussion and support is always with the theocons.

Early in our struggle, the United Church of Canada and the Metropolitan Community Church in Canada were given leading roles in our struggle for moral equality. Makes sense, eh ? Moral struggle.....LGBT moral leaders. To their surprise, your Robertson/Dobson/Falwell satellites in Canada and their minions, were confronted with theological and moral leaders from our side.

Early in our struggle, the Royal Canadian societies in medicine and social sciences were ready to confront the accredited quacks who were ready to provide individuals with the "ex-gay choice" arguements.

Early in our struggle, our lesbian and gay and gay-affirming MP's and MPP's joined together with the legal staff to address the legal and political pieces.

Yes, it is true. By the year 2005, when the National Marriage Act was given Royal Assent, only the most right wing parts of the nation had not already allowed same-sex marriage.

So, when you have the HRC or GLAAD or GLAD or etc....responding to Falwell, Dobson and Robertson's spin of a sole and universal Christian condemnation of our efforts ----you have the outcomes which you have seen. Theocons are enboldened and successful.....while liberals are cowered and are capitulating in judiciaries and legislatures ----using the very arguements....the spiritual moral ones.....that secular US activists resent and avoid. My take.:)


Dash - Make sure that when Moses dies, that Joshua is still alive.....I would suggest Methuselah - because given the points made herein, it will take someone with that longevity in order to sprint across the finish line in several generations from now.

[Zerbie]

:eek:

I'm sitting here smacking my forehead saying "Oh, duh! Duh! Duh! Duh!!!" (yes, I really did say that aloud:rolleyes: ) - Ever know something only partway and then suddenly someone says something and it comes clear into focus? That just happened to me from your note above.

Yes, it IS being portrayed as "spiritual" people AGAINST secular. Yes, it is. And I never took that seriously because of my own worldview (Lonnnnnnnnng story.) But now I am seeing how it is and has been a problem. Yes, omigoodness, many people give trust to religious leaders . . . Then along WE come with a bevy of PhDs and activists to challenge what those religious leaders say, with the implication that what they say does not matter. With the implication that we don't care about God, spirituality, Christ, any of that.

Groups like Clergy For Justice are critical. But I almost wonder if their relatively late appearance on the social justice/political scene is going to shoot them in the foot. I've heard "Christians" say that now even some churches have been taken in by the homosexual agenda, as if they were gradually lured into a fall.

I don't know. I am not informed on these matters, and it's time I learn.

Thank you for helping me to see this, crystal-clear. :love:

[NonLemming]

I really must explore this emigration thing.:)

[Liberal Crozier]

NonLemming -

There are some impressive organisations formed in 2003 and again in 2005 to assist eligible LGBT foreign nationals to gain resident alien status and eventual citizenship in our country.

The immigration laws are more easily navigated than the USA laws. Someone jokingly referred to a SWAP DAY where all the Canadian theocons could take US gay and lesbian passports and the LGBT Americans could become Canadians.:D . Canadian theocons are just "dying" to immigrate to the States, while American gays and lesbians are just simply -dying- literally, spiritually, and legally when they remain in a neo-fascist state with no rights.

You can write me privately for more information, however, if you are both US citizens, for example, it is in your favour to marry legally in Canada prior to making the first steps.

Of course, there is always the possibility of legally and ethically and truly falling in love with one of us, and thereby becoming a first preference alien after marrying. A serious caveat.....a false marriage based on reasons of simple immigration is a felony. However, if the marriage is true, and you spend all your vacation time as a single man in Canada, there might be a Canadian single willing to make an honest person out of you.

Lastly, remember the clues.....in order to propose marriage, and provide an engagement ring, you get down on one knee only....;)

[SBP]

Moses may not be the one lead us over Jordan...very likely we must yet raise up our Joshua from among us.

Well, I nominate Dash~!! Our very own opera appreciating, silver tongued
bard. If anyone would stand a chance at charismatically "sounding the call" that would bring the disparate masses together, it would be own "Chicago Catalyst"~!! :D

Peace & Love 2 U~!!

[Liberal Crozier]

Nine out of ten American gay and lesbian citizens will remain in the United States regardless of any and all oppressive laws against them and whom they love. They will live and love - maybe their whole lives - as legal strangers with no adoption rights.

Of these ten, two of them will vote for, support, and actively work against their own human and civil rights.

The LGBT organisations will be as effective as was the NAACP during the Plessy or Jim Crow century.

However, if you are the one out of ten who wishes to either " live as an expatriate" or more, become a resident alien and eventually a citizen of Canada, we will welcome you in the same way that we welcomed the slave at the end of the Underground Railroad in Brompton ON, or we will welcome you in the same way that we welcomed Vietnam opponents....civilian or veteran.

[Steven E. Webster]

I was just catching up on this thread this a.m. and read with interest the discussion of spiritual vs. secular angles on the argument for LGBT equality in the U.S.A.

One of the things going on in the U.S.A. at the same time is the rise of Fundamentalism. Somehow, during my lifetime (covering the last half of the last century) fundamentalism rose from being considered a weird, minority faith to being seen as THE true representative of Christianity.

In the early 1970's the United Methodist Church (quintessentially mainline) was moving towards acceptance of LGBT equality, but the General Conference seemed to go for the argument that if they went that direction, they would loose many members to the Southern Baptists.

Late in the 1970's the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church was taken over by a fundamentalist party. Not long after that the same happened to the Southern Baptists. In the 1980's the IRD (Institute on Religion and Democracy) began its work to bring down mainline Christianity. Right now IRD seems to have succeeded in "sidelining" the mainline and convincing the media in the United States that Fundamentalists and ultra-conservative Roman Catholics are the true representatives of Christianity to be consulted anytime the media needs to hear from a "reverend."

We're in a deep hole here in the U.S. (we progressive Christians, I mean). Now I read a sociologist who says that liberals/progressives are simply leaving the faith in large numbers because "christianity" is too closely identified with the "right wing."

A lot of us wish there was some way to turn this situation around--and not just for the sake of LGBT people.

Steven Webster

[Liberal Crozier]

Yes, and they developed satellites in Canada. It is important to state, Stephen, IMHO (Spouse;) , that this right wing "Christianity" has a secular neo-conservative component. It speaks to Dominionism - and a belief that Zionism and Christianity will together hasten a " rapture and millennialism or pre-millennialism". It is the blurring of lines between Revelations scripture and the novels of Tim and Beverly La Haye.....whose gay and self-loathing right wing son works in the family business.

You have a keen grasp of the takeover of mainline systems. The theocon, like their secular political neocon, changes definitions of organisations and philosophies/theologies by hijacking them.

Like all minorities who have hijacked organisations, from the Bolsheviks in 1917 Russia, to the Warsaw Pact nations who survived several generations after WWII, their zealotry overwhelmed the cultural and minimalist denominationalist. When others were disinterested, or no longer supporting the effort, these Dominionists went to General Conventions in elected droves. It was easy - they did it in their politics, they did it in their religious denomination.

However, Stephen, IMHO, it was also the capitulation of the liberal theologians - from Roman Catholicism to mainline Protestantism - who also contributed to the silence from the Christian Left. Until +Gene Robinson said "no" to the theocons, we had been witnesses to Canon Johns+ refusing to accept his bishopric in England - despite the fact that his thirty year union was devoid of psychosexual expression. Yesterday, he took one of those UK Plessy packages, and was again attacked by the right wing.

Our point was simple. Theologians engage in apologetics with theologians. Politicians engage in apologetics with politicians. Scientific persons with scientific persons. To do otherwise gives the perception, and therefore to some, the reality, that there is no correctness to any definition of Christianity other than the theocons.

That was the Canadian strategy, and our outcome is our outcome.

[Daniel]

Right now IRD seems to have succeeded in "sidelining" the mainline and convincing the media in the United States that Fundamentalists and ultra-conservative Roman Catholics are the true representatives of Christianity to be consulted anytime the media needs to hear from a "reverend."


So true Steven. Whenever there is a 'debate' on GLBT matters, it is more than often framed in such a way as to pit a fundamentalist against a GLBT person. Moderates don't seem to enter the picture much.

I believe there is something else at work here. And that is the perverse manner in which television producers seek to gain viewership by creating fireworks and drama. Let's face it: fundies make better copy. In short: its about ratings, salaries and serving the Almightly Stockholder. That is the real altar so many worship at.

[NathanATX]

What a great thread...

So what I'm hearing is that I need to put myself in the media spotlight--as well as doing the ministry work I do-- so that I can be a strong religious voice that opposes the theoconartists.

How do you think I should do that?

-write a book?
-start submitting articles to papers?
-create a "professional blog"?

This is also leaves me feeling like I maybe don't know enough, am not courageous enough, well spoken enough... where to begin...?

WE NEED TO BE DEVELOPING YOUNG PEOPLE INTO LEADERS!!!!

[Daniel]

What a great thread...

So what I'm hearing is that I need to put myself in the media spotlight--as well as doing the ministry work I do-- so that I can be a strong religious voice that opposes the theoconartists.

How do you think I should do that?

-write a book?
-start submitting articles to papers?
-create a "professional blog"?

This is also leaves me feeling like I maybe don't know enough, am not courageous enough, well spoken enough... where to begin...?]

Nate- the answer to your three questions is Yes, Yes and Yes! Any more questions? :D

I believe, in the short while that I have know you, that you have all that you need to accomplish these goals and more. And what you don't know, or think you don't know, will become clear to you as you involve yourself in the matters that concern you most.

You are well-spoken, courageous and already know a great deal. You lack nothing other than the ability to forget yourself. It's called being self-conscious. I know all about that being a performer. One learns to focus on the work at hand and 'step back' and watch wonders unfold before one's eyes. This means giving the 'critic' another job to do while you're 'busy'.