My brother in law [Archive] - Soulforce Community Forums

pnggrad79

08-01-2006, 11:44 PM

Zerbie

08-02-2006, 12:41 AM

I am SO far from being schooled in the Bible it's ridiculous, but since it's late and no one has responded to ya yet, I'll open my big (in this case also ignorant) mouth.

It looks to me like those verses are saying "they" someday will follow teachers who tell them what they want to hear, rather than the Truth. And that can mean anyone. Who is to say who the "they" is? We can all point fingers at one another on that point. Your BIL says it's you, perhaps you believe it's your BIL. Those with a conservative view of sexuality will say that people like Mel White are "twisting" Scripture to "make it" mean what they want it to say.

I think the best we can do is pray, contemplate, meditate, and remain open to the still small voice to guide our understanding.

Perhaps someone better educated in the Bible will respond to this one soon. Anyone?

Jennifer5

08-02-2006, 01:18 AM

I don't really know how to help... sorry, maybe someone else knows more about this...:love:

Daniel

08-02-2006, 12:01 PM

OK, I sent him an article I found on Whosoever.org and it was entitled, "Exploding the myths of Jesus, the Bible and Homosexuality" and sent it to him and my sister. He writes back quoting Matthew 19:4-6 which says that, "for this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh" and said that because Jesus said this that he was indirectly condemning homosexuality. I think it is a far stretch, but hey that is what fundamentalists do best isn't it?

He also said that I was the person talked about in 2Timothy 4:3-4, and only wanted my ears tickled and that I had run away from sound doctrine by being a lesbian.

But I have always had in the back of my mind that same scripture and wonder how does it fit in with the new thinking that homosexuality isn't wrong? I mean the Bible only talks about men-women relationships. Maybe it is just my internal homophobia, but I would really like some opinions about this from people I consider to be a whole lot smarter than me.:confused:

Like Zerbie- I am not steeped in biblical sword play- that is- I'm not that adept at what I call 'dueling verses'. That said, I do come from a fundamenalist family and went to an Assembly of God School where I had a fair amount of bible classes. But those days are long behind me!

(I think Keltic or Revtj could help you out here in a pinch.)

That said, it stikes me as odd that you brother-in-law (what does your sister have to say about all this, I wonder?) didn't hit you with the Leviticus- 'man laying down with man'- and Roman's- 'gave themselves up to perversion or something or the sort' - verses. These two are the heavy hitters as far as how fundies see us gay people and have been written about extensively by many writers on the 'pro-gay' side.

If you are going to engage your brother-in-law on this level, then I would do some research and reading into biblical matters and homosexuality. I started- gulp!- with John Boswell's big tome Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/index-bos.html). Reading it is like a high jump into the deep end of the pool. You need not go there at first, but it's good scholarship nonetheless.

There are other less daunting scources to start with. A little hunting turned up this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1412068258/sr=8-1/qid=1154537378/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-8416211-1960815?ie=UTF8

A Biblical Defense Guide for Gays, Lesbians and Those Who Love Them by Craig Bettendorf.

You could also send your brother this after you read it yourself: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0664229395/ref=pd_bxgy_text_b/002-8416211-1960815?ie=UTF8

Jesus, the Bible, And Homosexuality: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church by Jack Rogers.

This latter book sounds very much like something he's seen already and may be quoted in what you sent him.

A lot of the time people like your brother-in-law eventually come around, not because of verses or anything penetrating their heads, but via another route entirely. Like- where is your sister on this issue? Does she stick up for you?

It's taken me a very long time to see some change in my own family- and that is after 15 years of relationship. (I sent them all a reading list at one point! I'd had enough.) There is a saying" "When you come out of the closet your family goes in." There is a lot of truth to that. They need time to get their heads together- especially if they are fundies. Then they're up a creek with no paddle for the most part. Your being gay up-ends their whole world.

suzer1013

08-02-2006, 12:14 PM

I hate when scripture is used as a sword. He could have come up with a couple better references, though.

The quote from Matthew is more than a stretch. Jesus is talking about marriage and divorce, and any "indirect" condemnation of homosexuality is non-existent and a ludicrous observation from him. The "tickling your ears" quote is something that is thrown around on the UMC boards alot. I guess my question would be, how does he know it's your ears, and not HIS, that are being "tickled" and hearing only what he wants to hear?

I try not to engage people in scripture quoting wars. That is not the way I learned Jesus' teachings and, for me, it is futile to argue scripture. Just because something is in scripture (for example, slavery), doesn't mean it is right. I would like to try to get people to think outside of that scripture "box" if they can. That's not to say scripture doesn't need to be discussed, I just think we can get too bogged down in it.

Keep looking at the information on the Whosoever site, though, because I think they have some very good explanations/refutation of certain passages. There's alot of good stuff on Whosoever, and you may find some assistance there as far as what those passages really mean and what the original context was.

Susan

Daniel

08-02-2006, 12:22 PM

I hate when scripture is used as a sword.

Could not agree with you more. I think this is the toughest nut to crack. Those who hide behind scripture and throw out darts drive me nuts. There is no winning with this kind of person. Because, for them, its not about love or compassion, it really IS about winning. This, to me, is the height of spiritual materialism.

NonLemming

08-02-2006, 01:00 PM

Could not agree with you more. I think this is the toughest nut to crack. Those who hide behind scripture and throw out darts drive me nuts. There is no winning with this kind of person. Because, for them, its not about love or compassion, it really IS about winning. This, to me, is the height of spiritual materialism.

Excellent point, Daniel. While I do not believe in scriptural swordplay, I do like to pull out an old sampler I have lying around to aid in the "discussion". Usually gets 'em quiet pretty fast.

A Leviticus Sin Sampler*

Eating rabbit 11:6
Eating pork 11:7
Eating shellfish (abomination) 11:10
Eating snails 11:30
New mother entering sanctuary within 33 days of son’s birth 12:4
New mother entering sanctuary within 66 days of daughter’s birth 12:5
Lying with neighbor’s wife (abomination) 18:20
Lying with mankind, as with womankind (abomination) 18:22
Stealing, dealing falsely or lying 19:11
Swearing falsely by or profaning God’s name 19:12
Defrauding neighbor 19:13
Tattoos 19:28
Adultery (punishable by death) 20:10
Shaving one’s head 21:5

*as per the King James Bible

Those living or judging others by this book need to exhibit care in equity. Picking and choosing the ones you like is not an option. Live by it, or shut up.

tdogg

08-02-2006, 02:41 PM

pgngrad,

I know what you mean in your post - I've had 'discussions' with religious familly members who hold the same beliefs as your BIL. For me, it's not so much scripture quoting - scripture can be used to condemn or praise just about anything and since it's pretty much opinion anyway as to how to interpret the various interpretations, it's an unending useless arugment that benefits no one.

For me, I haven't found anything in Jesus' actual words (red letter words) that would condemn me being a Lesbian in a committed relationship with another woman - married or not. I don't see a lack of affirmation of a specific activity by Jesus or the Bible to mean it is wrong, or a sin. Practically all of what we do in our daily lives is not specifically affirmed in the Bible much less by Jesus himself.

Daniel gave a good reference in John Boswell's big tome Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality - it is humongous but excellent especially the appendix on Biblical translation. The original scriptures were mainly written by men in context for men, and translated and interpreted throughout the centuries by men (pretty much if not exclusive). This isn't to say men aren't capable of writing, translating or interpreting scripture - but you tend to get a narrow point of view especially considering the more modern interpretations. If the Bible is truly the infallible and perfect word of God, then why are there so many translations and interpretations? That is why I believe that each person has a responsibility to read the scriptures for themselves, pray and seek individual understanding and then determine how that fits into their lives (NOT the lives of everyone else).

When I hear people state that homosexuality is a sin and there is no other way to look at it, it just confirms that person has no understanding of homosexuality (or sexuality in general) - if they spent any time reading, researching, and any length of time around us LGBTs I think it would go a long way to dispell the myths and open their minds and hearts to us and why we believe the way we do. Most of those extremely opposed have no interest in doing that. They hold fast to their own truths (and they are THEIR own truths not those of God necessarily) and refuse to budge or even open to the possibility of another point of view. And, IMO, that is greatly out of fear of losing their own perceived salvation.

Steven E. Webster

08-02-2006, 02:55 PM

Friends,
A few posts back in this thread someone mentions a book by Jack Rodgers. I've not read it yet but I hear that it is very good and to be recommended.

Jack Rodgers was recently head of the Presbyterian Church (USA) (the title is Moderator, I think). Anyway, Rodgers had a good reputation among "evangelicals," but in recent years he's become convinced that the cause of LGBT people is right and just and "biblical."

Needless to say, he's lost alot of friends amongst the "evangelicals."

Steven E. Webster

Liberal Crozier

08-02-2006, 03:04 PM

Spouse+ here....and considering his health, it will be so unless he says so:D

Dr. Mel White has the best video in this website....about Jesus loving you when all the rhetoric in the world will not convince the dominionist....and maybe this won't as well, but it should be suggested.

I know, when I go to the supermarket, I usually ask the clerk for an item when I am practically walking over it:lol:

keltic63

08-02-2006, 03:46 PM

keltic63

08-02-2006, 04:05 PM

Could not agree with you more. I think this is the toughest nut to crack. Those who hide behind scripture and throw out darts drive me nuts. There is no winning with this kind of person. Because, for them, its not about love or compassion, it really IS about winning. This, to me, is the height of spiritual materialism.

One really has to know the bible very well if one is to do that kind of swordplay. fortunately, my fundamentalist upbringing provided me with a wealth of memorized scriptures (if only I had memorized their locations as well!) I have the added benefit of being a religious studies minor back in undergrad; it's not much, but it helps.

Beyond the fundies' need to be "right" and "winning" there is the sense of Biblical Idolatry. I am starting to confront some of the posters over in the UMC about this. A few seem to value the Book of Discipline and the Bible itself, over the message of Jesus Christ. It's very much like the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' time. It's important to be right, and it's important to "obey" the law, and as in Matthew 23:4 they tie up heavy loads, impossible to bear and impose them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing, or able, to lift those same burdens. ie, they talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Interestingly enough, these people place a very high importance on obedience, and expect others to meet their standard of it (not God's) in order to get into heaven. Sorry, if I'm depending on works to get into heaven, I guess I won't be going. They treat God as if he is an angry father, difficult to be pleased, always ready to strike. That's not the image that Jesus gives us, and I really believe that all of scripture must somehow align with the teachings of Christ or be ignored.

pnggrad79

08-02-2006, 11:14 PM

That said, it stikes me as odd that you brother-in-law (what does your sister have to say about all this, I wonder?) didn't hit you with the Leviticus- 'man laying down with man'- and Roman's- 'gave themselves up to perversion or something or the sort' - verses. These two are the heavy hitters as far as how fundies see us gay people and have been written about extensively by many writers on the 'pro-gay' side.

If you are going to engage your brother-in-law on this level, then I would do some research and reading into biblical matters and homosexuality. I started- gulp!- with John Boswell's big tome Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/index-bos.html). Reading it is like a high jump into the deep end of the pool. You need not go there at first, but it's good scholarship nonetheless.

My sister is just as condemning and caustic as her husband. Now get this-My wife and I, althought not out at the time, let her and her husband and two boys ages 2 and 3 at the time, live in our lakehouse rent free, let her use my daughter's car, bought a new washer and dryer for them, let her use my other daughter's cell phone, paid the electric and water for 6 weeks all for free. I came out about a month later, and she went off on me, saying that I had graciously allowed her to live there so that I could manipulate her into accepting my godless, heathen, reprobate lifestyle. I was permanently barred from ever spending time with my nephews or seeing her again.

When I came out, as when I divorced I was slammed with Bible verse after Bible verse, (as if I didn't know it already) and repeatedly denied access to my nephews or family gatherings. My father called and preached at me for a solid two hours, and told me that I was stupid and he knew I would never amount to anything, said that if my daughters succeeded that it would be in SPITE of me, not BECAUSE of me. Yeah, my whole family is very condemning.

I am better at dealing with it now, I don't get as worked up as I did back then. I know my Redeemer lives, and He loves me and knew I was a lesbian when he died for my sins 2000 years ago. God knew I was gay from the foundation of the world, and yet, he set no conditions for my redemption. Hallelujah!

I pray for their enlightenment, but I don't count on it. It took me 12 years to come out to myself. So, I really have to let God handle this. He got me this far!:rainbow:

Daniel

08-03-2006, 12:21 AM

My sister is just as condemning and caustic as her husband. Now get this-My wife and I, althought not out at the time, let her and her husband and two boys ages 2 and 3 at the time, live in our lakehouse rent free, let her use my daughter's car, bought a new washer and dryer for them, let her use my other daughter's cell phone, paid the electric and water for 6 weeks all for free. I came out about a month later, and she went off on me, saying that I had graciously allowed her to live there so that I could manipulate her into accepting my godless, heathen, reprobate lifestyle. I was permanently barred from ever spending time with my nephews or seeing her again.

When I came out, as when I divorced I was slammed with Bible verse after Bible verse, (as if I didn't know it already) and repeatedly denied access to my nephews or family gatherings. My father called and preached at me for a solid two hours, and told me that I was stupid and he knew I would never amount to anything, said that if my daughters succeeded that it would be in SPITE of me, not BECAUSE of me. Yeah, my whole family is very condemning.

My heart breaks for the you and for them! Such ignorance and cruelty. Being told that one is worthless is corrosive and destructive. And once such things are said, they are very hard to forget and not easily taken back- pride often gets in the way.

I know EXACTLY what you mean regarding 'praying for their enlightenment, but not counting on it'. This matter has caused me much pain: it is hard to accept that those who profess to be one's 'family' may, in point of fact, never know us and love us and that we will never have the connection with them that we would like. I believe that the journey we embark on, that results in our accepting ourselves, brings a great deal of light into our lives. And because that light helps us 'see' and 'act', we are the ones who reach out while others remain in the dark. The hard truth here is that, all too often, we are left doing all the 'work'. This can be very tiring and upsetting. At such times, I remind myself to think deeper and become more still- ever-widening the circle of compassion from the center of my heart.

I believe that love can remove obstacles. And raise the dead out of their coffins of judgment.

I join with you in prayer that your prayers will be answered.

Zerbie

08-03-2006, 02:15 PM

Oh PNGgrad!!!!!! :'( :( That is so awful! :'(
I'm really really sorry your family treated you that way and said those things to you! :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

Of course that hurts - how could it not??? Those sorts of words can echo in our ears for a long, long time. :love:

Do what you must to nurture yourself. Sometimes, sometimes, time begins to heal even rifts this big. My family did something awful to my gay cousin a very long time ago, and ultimately, while the rift was never completely mended over, the was a great deal of reconciliation, and more than anyone ever thought possible. My family was pretending he was dead. He made multiple suicide attempts in response to that. Eventually, after a lot of years, my aunt finally said "He's a homosexual. . .but. . .well. . .that doesn't matter. . .he's still family" and finally, the estranged began to speak to each other, awkwardly on the telephone.

My point is, if THAT can happen, if that family can mend, there's hope that yours will mend too.

tdogg

08-03-2006, 06:00 PM

pnggrad,

That was very kind and loving for you to take care of your sister and her family. While the kindness was not only overlooked but thrown back in your face, I can only believe that someday she (and they) will come to see that kindness and love, and the reflection of God in what you did for them. Some people will desperately use their words to try and take God and our faith from us, but if we continue to live kind and loving lives and have God in our life, how can they really take Him away? I have to keep reminding myself, but it's what I hold on to at times when family issues get tough to deal with.

Here is a prayer and some hugs for you. Know that you did the right thing and the Lord is truly blessing you for it. :pray: :love: :love: :love:

Dash

08-03-2006, 07:06 PM

I am better at dealing with it now, I don't get as worked up as I did back then. I know my Redeemer lives, and He loves me and knew I was a lesbian when he died for my sins 2000 years ago. God knew I was gay from the foundation of the world, and yet, he set no conditions for my redemption. Hallelujah!

I pray for their enlightenment, but I don't count on it. It took me 12 years to come out to myself. So, I really have to let God handle this. He got me this far!:rainbow:

You just reminded me of my mom! Such strength behind those words. :) The strength of one who'll drive a tractor in the summer heat, tend the garden, mow the yard, redo the living room, feed the men, clean the house, make new clothing and do the laundry, raise the kids, run the errands, work right through while men are yakkin', and never leave the house without looking pretty. One who doesn't say much about her faith, but puts the abuse her family put her through as a child and an adult behind her and gives good gifts out of her poverty to all around her. One who lives beyond being disowned by her Church and prefers to support those she loves rather than control them.

:love: Lov you pnggrad! I gotta call my momma!

pnggrad79

08-04-2006, 07:30 AM

You just reminded me of my mom! Such strength behind those words. The strength of one who'll drive a tractor in the summer heat, tend the garden, mow the yard, redo the living room, feed the men, clean the house, make new clothing and do the laundry, raise the kids, run the errands, work right through while men are yakkin', and never leave the house without looking pretty. One who doesn't say much about her faith, but puts the abuse her family put her through as a child and an adult behind her and gives good gifts out of her poverty to all around her. One who lives beyond being disowned by her Church and prefers to support those she loves rather than control them.

Thank you Dash for your kind words. I would like to know more about your mom. I doubt seriously I could ever be what she is, but I thank God that you have someone in your life that you admire so much and that has blessed you and your family with her life. God bless you!:)

Joshuan

08-16-2006, 08:51 PM

Jesus never used the Scripture against the world...only the religious elite who were judging and trying to close off heaven to others.

I know the sting of when someone close to us judges us. Please know that you are not alone. Jesus in fact was judged rather harshly and constantly had "THE WORD" used against him by those who only wanted to watch a trainwreck.

Peace to you. And healing.