Some of my best friends are......

[keltic63]

____________ !



Ok, you can fill in the blank with whatever word you like ;)

I engaged a poster over at UMC in a conversation about gay marriage, acceptance, etc. here's a brief overview of the conversation:

I have friends that are homosexual and find them to be well educated, kind, and socially active. I also sense they are sometimes very lonely and always on the defensive. I love them but do not agree with their lifestyle. They should certainly be welcomed in any church. What makes their sin any greater than ours?
I do not support same sex unions for many reasons but
I understand their position.
my response: But like heterosexuals, not all homosexuals are well educated, kind or even socially active. ( see Dash's post above, he's nearly a recluse! http://archives.umc.org/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif)........
Lonely? I guess so. Statistics show that we are only 6-10% of the population and tend to gravitate toward urban areas.
Defensive? why do you suppose that is? Some people refer to our orientation as a "lifestyle" as if we choose it, and it is some cookie-cutter program of dancing, drinking, and promiscuity. Some people even refer to our orientation as "sin." Some people think that our consensual, committed, monogamous, and loving relationships aren't even worthy of a civil union.
I can't imagine, PassionFor, why your homosexual friends might feel that way around you. Oh, wait a minute! You're one of those people suppressing your own friends!

and now this guy (???) gets offended:
Suppressing my friends? You sure know how to win friends and make enenies. Are you always so judgemental?
Isn't that the very trait those that believe they are being discriminated against hate the most? Maybe you should focus on another topic. It's always good to get the focus off one's self and on to others. It makes you feel better!
and again, my respone: I used your words, not my own. So, in fact, I did focus on you, instead of myself.

But I do want you to understand what I'm saying, not just lob some tough bombs at you. We want what is best for and what brings happiness to our friends. I can't speak for all gay people, but it is the human condition to seek out companionship in an intimate and committed relationship. It seems you would deny that to your gay friends on the sole basis that they are gay. You said you are against any kind of civil unions for homosexuals.

How does that conversation go? "I love you and all, but what you are is a grotesque twisting of God's plan. you certainly shouldn't be able to have society recognize your relationship in any sort of formal way. Gotta run! Let's do lunch sometime."
I WILL ADMIT FREELY THAT THERE IS A WHOLE LOT OF SARCASM IN MY POSTS. But I would hope that my sarcasm points out the non sequitors of such a position or attitude. So PassionFor has gay friends but doesn't understand their loneliness or their defensiveness, while he spouts off about how they shouldn't be able to get married, how their lifestyle is a sin, etc.

I remember my grandmother saying some very racist things when I was young. Things like "I don't mind colored people as long as they keep their place." or "I'll never go to Florida with all those Cuba-Rican re-'fyooo-gees they have down there." How does a person arrive at these kinds of opinions while claiming to have love in their hearts for those very people? (my grandmother was a devout fundie who would have been offended if anyone would have pointed out the disconnect in her statements.)


:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused:

[Daniel]

I WILL ADMIT FREELY THAT THERE IS A WHOLE LOT OF SARCASM IN MY POSTS. But I would hope that my sarcasm points out the non sequitors of such a position or attitude. So PassionFor has gay friends but doesn't understand their loneliness or their defensiveness, while he spouts off about how they shouldn't be able to get married, how their lifestyle is a sin, etc.


This reader actually laughed at what you call sarcasm- it's actually kind of funny if you can step back a little- but that may just be me.

Re trying to connect the disconnect: It's little like pointing out to someone that they just stepped in doggy-poo. They are stinking to high heaven and think the reeking smell that pervades the air is your doing (sin sin sin in the air everywhere- where's the air freshener?), while, in fact, they brought it into the room with them. Don't people wipe their feet anymore?

Send them this: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gagworks.com/ProductImages/116759.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gagworks.com/browseproducts/JESUS---AIR-FRESHNER.html&h=400&w=345&sz=26&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=VFXqGXa0soF5eM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djesus%2Bair%2Bfreshener%26svnum%3D10% 26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26s a%3DN

Get this for yourself! http://www.gagworks.com/browseproducts/DEVIL-AIR-FRESHENER.html

[NonLemming]

Some of my best friends are Christians.

And I don't hold it against them, as long as they don't get uppity.

[Joe Brummer]

As much as I am a very sarcastic person, I sometimes feel when we get to touchy subjects like "gay rights", if we are too sarcastic, that is what they see in us, they don't see or hear what we are truly saying to them. The only sense and respond defensively to our sarcasm. That, in the end, doesn't really help the conversation.

Our goal must always be to win over our adversary, not win against them.

I am as guilty as the next guy at forgetting this philosophy, but I do agree with Mel White, Gandhi and King, that nonviolence is the only way to end this cultural war. EVen when we are doing such simple things as chatting on a web board.

I think your replys where good Keltic, but the sarcasm did make your partner in conversation defensive and hurt and she responded as such. It is tough to be nonviolent all the time, but look what gains we could make if we were.

[Zerbie]

This is a tough conversation to have, Keltic.

Joe B is correct. What the other party is going to take out of the conversation is the emotional content as he perceives it. So even when we can't believe what they can't see about their position, responding with any degree of sarcasm or anger leaves that person with the emotional perception of anger and sarcasm lobbed at them, rather than the information or perspective we used the sarcasm to convey.

I've often been taken to task for being too kind to the enemy. Believe me, I understand!!!! But unfortunately, since the opposing person is human and has a heart (whether or not we can tell from their words!) they are going to respond to the emotional content of the communication above all else.

A friend of mine takes the stance that gay people need to understand that they are different, and therefore cannot be entitled to marriage equality. To me, that says, 'Gays need to understand that they are inferior, and therefore can't be entitled to equal standing under the law," and I get ridiculously angry. But if I communicate to her with sarcasm and anger, that's all she's going to get, Zerbie being angry and sarcastic.

It's ironic that the opponents push and push our community, legally, spiritually, politically, emotionally, and even physically, and then react with indignation when they receive anger in response. But what do they do with that anger? Use it to justify the correctness of victimizing the gay community because the gay community is "intolerant" of their different "belief." It's infuriating. But responding IN anger will not help.

[Daniel]

As much as I am a very sarcastic person, I sometimes feel when we get to touchy subjects like "gay rights", if we are too sarcastic, that is what they see in us, they don't see or hear what we are truly saying to them. The only sense and respond defensively to our sarcasm. That, in the end, doesn't really help the conversation.

Our goal must always be to win over our adversary, not win against them.


Truly, our goal is to win over our adversay and not win against them.

However, how much sarcasm is too much as regards 'touchy subjects?" Does that mean that untouchy subjects are Ok? Shouldn't we simply X sarcasm out of the discussion entirely?

Last question, and probably the subject of a whole new thread: is camp dead?

[tdogg]

You know, some of my best friends are heterosexuals. I don't think it's a sin that they are het, well at least as long as they don't act on their feelings. I can see why they may think marriage is important to them, but really, given their track record, I'm totally against marriage for them. I guess as long as they don't have sex (especially in front of me YUCK), I can be their friend. Oh, and of course don't talk about it either......

If these people really thought of things they say in terms of themselves as the target - they might start realizing how ridiculous it really sounds.

[pnggrad79]

Keltic,
I know how frustrated you must be. This guy is so wrong on many levels, but I don't know how far you are going to get engaging him. I think it is great that if we just change the word homosexual and replace it with heterosexual, he might see how pompous and arrogant he sounds.

My point is-I am right there with you. It makes me downright angry when het people, especially Christians, use or rather hide behind their religiosity to justify their hatred, arrogance, and prejudice against GLBT people. But while it makes me angry, the battle is not mine, and I know that. God had to do a work in my life to get me past my own internal homophobia. I used to pound gay people with Scripture, until God brought me to my knees and revealed that I was a lesbian, and taught me a lot about grace, mercy, forgiveness and that I had no right to judge anyone. It wasn't anything anyone said to me that got me to change my way of thinking, it was plain and simple a work of God.

I am also not advocating passivity in the fight for GLBT rights. I just won't argue with heterosexual people on the rightness or wrongness of my lesbianism. Right or wrong, doesn't matter, when it comes to legality. Our constitution guarantees the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. If I want to make my life with a woman I should be able to do that.

[BruceChris]

It makes me downright angry when het people, especially Christians, use or rather hide behind their religiosity to justify their hatred, arrogance, and prejudice against GLBT people.

We must always remember that - religiousity, hatred, arrogance, and prejudice - are all ways of people expressing their fears. What they are probably most afraid of is the thought that the Bible, if wrong about any One thing, then it just might be wrong about ANY thing. :eek: :eek: (Or rather, not the Bible, so much as their understanding of the Bible.) There is much wisdom in the understanding that to respond to fear with anger only creates more fear, which the other person then expresses as more anger.

I am really impressed by the work(s) of Roby and Dotti, in their mission of Gay Into Straight America. They really seem to have mastered the art of always responding to anger only with non-judgemental kindness. I find it a wonderfully growing experience to go back and read the journals of their interactions with homophobes. You can read all of their journals by going to http://gayintostraightamerica.com/index.php?page_id=12 You could certainly find less useful ways of spending your time.

Peace and Love, BruceChris

[Lydia]

We must always remember that - religiousity, hatred, arrogance, and prejudice - are all ways of people expressing their fears.

I like this. And I agree.

[keltic63]

Keltic,
I know how frustrated you must be. This guy is so wrong on many levels, but I don't know how far you are going to get engaging him. I think it is great that if we just change the word homosexual and replace it with heterosexual, he might see how pompous and arrogant he sounds.

My point is-I am right there with you. It makes me downright angry when het people, especially Christians, use or rather hide behind their religiosity to justify their hatred, arrogance, and prejudice against GLBT people.

Interestingly enough, I didn't feel he was being consciously violent or even pompous and arrogant. I really think he was blind to how offensive his words are, and how his gay friends might react to him. He also seemed to be a person who clamors for peace (can't we all just get along?) but didn't seem to have a good grasp of the situation. well, I think he does now! :)

I've interacted a bit more with him, esp in another thread, and it has been positive.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I still can't promise "no more sarcasm" it's too much a part of me to just drop it. I can promise you to be more aware of it, and try to use it more wisely in the future.

[Emproph]

This is a tough conversation to have, Keltic.

Joe B is correct. What the other party is going to take out of the conversation is the emotional content as he perceives it. So even when we can't believe what they can't see about their position, responding with any degree of sarcasm or anger leaves that person with the emotional perception of anger and sarcasm lobbed at them, rather than the information or perspective we used the sarcasm to convey.

I've often been taken to task for being too kind to the enemy. Believe me, I understand!!!! But unfortunately, since the opposing person is human and has a heart (whether or not we can tell from their words!) they are going to respond to the emotional content of the communication above all else.

A friend of mine takes the stance that gay people need to understand that they are different, and therefore cannot be entitled to marriage equality. To me, that says, 'Gays need to understand that they are inferior, and therefore can't be entitled to equal standing under the law," and I get ridiculously angry. But if I communicate to her with sarcasm and anger, that's all she's going to get, Zerbie being angry and sarcastic.

It's ironic that the opponents push and push our community, legally, spiritually, politically, emotionally, and even physically, and then react with indignation when they receive anger in response. But what do they do with that anger? Use it to justify the correctness of victimizing the gay community because the gay community is "intolerant" of their different "belief." It's infuriating. But responding IN anger will not help.That post was quenching, cleansingly quenching even. Just a perfect synopsis of the implications of sarcasm. I think I’ll have it framed,no wait! First bronzed, then framed.

:D P.S. I like Zerbie’s new signature Daniel, it’s sharp. :tup: :D

[Emproph]

^;)>As much as I am a very sarcastic person...Our goal must always be to win over our adversary, not win against them. I am as guilty as the next guy at forgetting this philosophy... Yes I Often think to myself... “I wonder what that guilty sarcastic Joe Brummer is up to today over at Replace the Lies With TRUTH (http://joebrummer.com/WordPress/)?”
-In fact “this reader” fell off his chair when he read that, and then proceeded to roll around on the floor laughing his ass quite off. :rofl: You know, some of my best friends are heterosexuals. I don't think it's a sin that they are het, well at least as long as they don't act on their feelings. I can see why they may think marriage is important to them, but really, given their track record, I'm totally against marriage for them. I guess as long as they don't have sex (especially in front of me YUCK), I can be their friend. Oh, and of course don't talk about it either......(*Good Sarcasm,* *Good Sarcasm*)

I know what you mean tdogg, some of my best friends are idolaters. And whenever I’m with them they’re always flaunting their sacrilege, blaspheming against this, blaspheming against that, and that's just at church! If these people really thought of things they say in terms of themselves as the target - they might start realizing how ridiculous it really sounds. And thus we have a dream.Keltic,
But while it makes me angry, the battle is not mine, and I know that. God had to do a work in my life to get me past my own internal homophobia. I used to pound gay people with Scripture, until God brought me to my knees and revealed that I was a lesbian, and taught me a lot about grace, mercy, forgiveness and that I had no right to judge anyone. It wasn't anything anyone said to me that got me to change my way of thinking, it was plain and simple a work of God.:good: pnggrad I enjoyed your whole post but that part in particular I found to be powerful articulate testimony. A better template for me, and a reminder that if God was necessary to work that miracle in our lives then of course only God could make that difference in theirs. So thank you, I am humbled.Thanks everyone for the advice. I still can't promise "no more sarcasm" it's too much a part of me to just drop it. I can promise you to be more aware of it, and try to use it more wisely in the future. That pretty much sums up my feelings too. I’ve been challenged with this of late so this is illuminating.
________________________

My final thoughts... :D

I don’t think it’s striking that those whose worldview is based on fear, are less likely to appreciate a keen eye for bitter irony.

Humor is based on the unknown, the willingness to take a ride to the (possibly unrewarding) punch line.

Uncertainty IS fear. Because it always contains the possibility of threat.

Thus I propose a sliding scale. We start of with knock knock jokes and gradually move up to sarcasm. Some will never make it past knock knock jokes, but some will...

Plainly speaking,
Sarcasm conveys a passive resignation to the impossibility of direct communication and is packaged as ironic humor to ensure the message is received.

(P.S. I know that's missing something, I'll have to do some obsessing.)

[Dash]

I often have to go back and delete my first sentence of any response when engaging conservatives. It's usually been dipped in three soupy layers of sarcasm and mockery.

Bad Dash! Bad Dash!!:disagree:

I too find their lack of humor to be one of their most striking and disturbing traits, and (perhaps relatedly) sometimes it seems they have a complete lack of empathy.

Can't laugh...can't cry.

[SBP]

:smashy: Bad Dash! Bad Dash!!:disagree:

Sorry Dash, I couldn't help myself...it was the first really great chance I've seen to use Mr. Smashy~!! ;)

This whole thread, especially Keltic63's um, dialogue, with PassionFor reminds me of a conversation I had recently with my own brother. While professing tolerance and inclusion in discussions he's had with others, I find his "tolerance" like that of so many others. He's tolerant as long as he doesn't have to see or hear anything related to the subject.

The statement he made that bypassed my rigid "compassion for intolerance" filters internally and made a beeline for my "detonate" button was that he was driving somewhere near the gay area here a few weeks back and happened to see 2 guys holding hands. He said he had "no problems" with gay culture until we insisted on our "in your face" actions. Now understand that this was ONE gay couple, simply holding hands~...and only ONE incident of it in several years for him, and he feels like this was "in his face"~!

I don't think he appreciated my response, but it did make him THINK, which was my whole intention. I said that I cannot turn on the television, pick up a newspaper or magazine, listen to the radio, etc. at ANY time 24/7 that "heterosexism" was not gratuitously in MY face. So if I have to "deal" with it constantly, than I was not even willing to consider him "inconvenienced" for a single MILD display once every blue moon. I told him to get over his bad self and take the same advice he gives me on the same topic..DEAL with it~!!

Tolerance and acceptance are two entirely different matters. Tolerance says that we will "put up with you as long as we don't have to see you, hear you, confirm your existance, etc." In short, as long as you remain in the closet. Totally and unequivocally UNACCEPTABLE. Acceptance does not require endorsement of something, just support for a "live and let live" philosophy. You wouldn't think this would be SO difficult.

I told him what I have said in other threads, that it is because of attitudes LIKE his that visibility is so vitally important, though in benign and positive expressions. If society is ever to "get over itself" and its squeamishness regarding our culture, it will only be through longterm exposure to the very human side of ourselves and through the positive examples we set. As long as we allow ourselves to be marginalized, then "straight America" will never be forced to confront its irrational phobias and be made to see them for what they are......and US for who WE are~!!

Good for you Keltic, keep plugging away! And I too, love the use of sarcasm as an instrument of educating the ignorant, especially the sharp, but subtle variety~! ;)

Daniel~ you are correct....we must win them OVER, not win OVER them if we are to win at all~!! :)

Peace & Love 2 U All~!!

[Zerbie]

That post was quenching, cleansingly quenching even. Just a perfect synopsis of the implications of sarcasm. I think I’ll have it framed,no wait! First bronzed, then framed.

: :D

:confused: Okay, so you disagree I guess?

[Emproph]

That post was quenching, cleansingly quenching even. Just a perfect synopsis of the implications of sarcasm. I think I’ll have it framed,no wait! First bronzed, then framed.

:D P.S. I like Zerbie’s new signature Daniel, it’s sharp. :tup: :D

:confused: Okay, so you disagree I guess?
:lol: You poor thing, I'm sorry.:love: :love: :love: Now that's a case of sarcasm getting the better of a situation. See, I'm a case study.

I sincerely thought it was an excellent post. You seem to have a knack for communicating things in a way that can be easily understood.

I actually did think about framing it because I found the whole thought process so sensible and linear. I've thought all the things you've said before, regularly in fact, but you encapsulated the whole idea quite articulately.

-I was just having a little fun with the thought of actually framing it.

I was serious about the signature too. That's exactly how I feel after a few days at CARM or UMC. I come back here to bath my mind and soul.

And you're one of the cleansing agents. Or would you prefer sanity reclamation device...:D :love: :love: :love:

[keltic63]

That's exactly how I feel after a few days at CARM or UMC. I come back here to bath my mind and soul.

And you're one of the cleansing agents. Or would you prefer sanity reclamation device...:D :love: :love: :love:


yeah, that's it, Sanity Reclamation Device!

I need that. I just got warned again at ChristianForums! It seems my response to one particular poster over there was viewed as "baiting." :( :confused:
This guy posted 9 threads last friday night. All of them were just links to news stories from Lifesite and AgapePress, all were poor, unreliable, reports about lgbt peopel or abortion. I responded with a simple "bored tonight?" in each and every thread.
So in response to the pm in which I was "alerted" I asked how the original poster's threads were not in violation of spamming rules, or baiting. I was told that it wasn't spam because the "articles" were news stories, he wasn't trying to increase business traffic at those sites. It wasn't baiting because the poster did not direct any comments at anyone; indeed the poster didn't comment at all, just posted faulty news stories from unreliable sources. the M.O. on this guy is to let others comment, then swoop in later with his hate speech. So in other words, the OP did nothing wrong, but I did everything wrong!


bad gay! bad, bad gay!

[Zerbie]

:lol: You poor thing, I'm sorry.:love: :love: :love: Now that's a case of sarcasm getting the better of a situation. See, I'm a case study.

I sincerely thought it was an excellent post. You seem to have a knack for communicating things in a way that can be easily understood.

I actually did think about framing it because I found the whole thought process so sensible and linear. I was serious about the signature too. That's exactly how I feel after a few days at CARM or UMC. I come back here to bath my mind and soul.

...:D :love: :love: :love:

:D Well, no wonder I couldn't figure it out! :lol:

If you do frame that, I hafta see it someday ya know? :lol:

Thanks for the hugs, E-Dude. :love: :love: :love:

How come the comment about my sig was directed at Daniel?????
I put the signature up after checking out the CARM and hearing about the UMC. If I steep myself in those waters, I come out cranky, cloudy, and angry. Sometimes I wonder if all CARM is for, is for people to be nasty to each other. I'm surprised the nice ones stick around. How do you guys stomach it at those places?

[BruceChris]

Well, I found the ChristianForums website, (and UMC), and they are not very encouraging. I found a thread started by someone called Thirst, and he was respectfully asking about being Gay and Christian. Some of the respondents were reasonably respectful, at least for a while, but clearly some of them cannot distinguish between liars, murders, and thieves, ie., "those who derive their identity" from those that they lie to, steal from, or kill, and those who derive their identity from whom they love. :sick: :( :confused: :disagree: Some of them just proceeded to "Run Off At The Keyboard", and put up Huge postings complete with ALL of the colors of the rainbow (:eek: :confused: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:) (Somehow, I don't think they would get the joke) And many were still posting in a shrill manner for a whole page AFTER Thirst had packed up and left. --- And these are the people who are going to be paying MY social security? I could see myself posting the above "identity" question, but even if I were very polite, I think I'd get kicked off pretty soon.

O.K., what is this CARM site? Can Emporph or Zerb fill me in here? And, is there any site any where that this sort of thing CAN be discussed respectfully, or we forced to choose between the "Jesus is a Liberal" sites, and those who would wish only to smite us?

Slightly discouraged, as I guess we all are. Chris

[Zerbie]

O.K., what is this CARM site? Can Emporph or Zerb fill me in here? And, is there any site any where that this sort of thing CAN be discussed respectfully, or we forced to choose between the "Jesus is a Liberal" sites, and those who would wish only to smite us?

Slightly discouraged, as I guess we all are. Chris

I don't know how to make links, so do what I did to find it. Google the following: CARM discussion
Then click on the link to discussion boards. You have to register in order to read threads now, b/c they don't want outsiders making negative comments about their members (ie: people like us quoting them and saying how nasty they sound.) But that will get you to CARM. I registered just so I could follow the conversations Emproph and Awe are having - like the forum you found, there are a lot of cruel words on CARM. It makes me so sad.

As to your question, I think it IS an either/or thing, because everybody likes to prove their "side" correct. CARM is kinda the philosophical flip-side of us, or of the Jesus is a Liberal, sites. I really miss seeing Awediot post here, he had an interesting foot on both sides of the Divide.

I haven't yet run into anything in between, and to be completely open about my feelings, I wish there WAS more of a middle. I feel awful for people who are figuring out their sexuality, and how it fits - or doesn't - with their understanding of God. Especially the one who recently started a thread over on CARM - where is the emotional support for young kids like that? For them, it must look like there's nothing between "coming out" on the one hand, which they might not want, or be ready to do, or condemnation or, slightly better than condemnation, conditional "love" as long you "fight temptation" and enter ex-gay therapy, on the other.

What about leaving people in peace to figure it out in their time, in their own way, just between their soul and God? I just don't see that happening.