I don't get it at all

[get_unlost]

I can't understand how this lifestyle is justified. I read a lot on this site including exerpts from books, but I just don't buy it. I'm not filled with hate, I just don't agree. I guess I'm here just to see what your reasoning is.

[BruceChris]

You are opening with an open question, instead of abuse or proof-texting. I am sure that if you look at our many threads and postings, you will soon see that almost all that we talk about among ourselves is our friendships, and support, and how we can make each other feel good about our selves, and our lives. I can't recall ever reading ANYTHING about sex, except how we are allways being accused of it or defined by it.

Then again, if you have read many of the postings here, you ought to be familiar with most of the arguments on BOTH sides. I think Zerbie said it best, when she said that a person cannot choose whom they love. I would love to dialogue with you, and I admire your courage for coming here, where you could easily get or feel ganged up on.

We believe that God loves us. We believe that God created us pretty much he way we are.
We believe that(WBT) God has given us the opportunity to love each other in pairs, and as a community. We do not equate love with sex, necessarily. As some wise lesbian once said, "Hey, Hetrosexuality is God's gift to straight people"

I'll sign off, here, and let someone else reply, and/or let you respond

Peace, alove, and God Bless, BruceChris

[tdogg]

Hi Get Unlost

Welcome to the forums. Glad you are here! :)

I think if you'll read through some of the threads you will get a really good and clear idea of how many of us came to accept who we are, who God made us to be, and how we believe He loves us exactly how He created us. It isn't a lifestyle or a choice, it's just US, who we are. You'll be able to read about the journeys we took to get to where we are, the journeys we are still enbarked upon. You can get insight into the highs and lows, how we aren't any different then most other people, how we love our families, work hard, honor God and do the right thing. You can 'meet' people who may not necessarily have the same priorities, faith beliefs, political opinions - but who enjoy dialoguing and sharing all of that across the board. People who in times of joy and crisis come together to encourage, support, show kindness, pray, advise, each other. There is a lot of love on these boards, in the hearts of those who post here.

I hope you stay around, read the threads, engage in the dialogue so that you can get answers to your questions and get to know all of us here. It's great that you are asking questions, you came to the right place to get answers. Welcome and truly hope to see you around here!! :D

T-dogg

[Jennifer5]

Welcome!
Thank you for being so open with how you ask your question.:)

Like Tdogg said, it really isn't a lifestyle or a choice, it's just US, who we are. I think all of us here agree that who ever we are is who God made us to be... and we all respect that. We're a community of friends or even what we can call family and we're all here to laugh when times are hard and to lift each other up when times are hard. It's a great community where I think that if you want to see the love that there really is in the GLBT community... you'll find it here. Again WELCOME! and Hope you see/hear more from you!:)

p.s. how did you hear about soulforce?

[Vanessa White]

If many others who are looking for understanding would approach it as you have, nondefensive, just having questions, dialogue would truly be dialogue and not defensive bantor. Ditto what every one of my dear friends have already said. I choose my language about my orientation, not to be confused with choosing my orientation itself- I DID NOT CHOOSE THAT. That was born into me as certain as was my hazle eyes and brown hair. I choose who I am in a relationship with, but I know I am meant to have sustaining, loving relationships in partnership with other women, not with men. It is just who I am. God created me in his image, which must make it as beautiful as it seems to be. I have never questioned God's love for me, even when I wasn't sure what to call what I was feeling. To come to Soulforce, is to feel like it is okay to ask questions, be confused, need support, and offer all of that to others as well. You will be respected for your questions here, and I really do appreciate you treating us respectfully. Peace to you, and I hope we can help.....:love: :love:

[NathanATX]

I can't understand how this lifestyle is justified. I read a lot on this site including exerpts from books, but I just don't buy it. I'm not filled with hate, I just don't agree. I guess I'm here just to see what your reasoning is.

I'd actually prefer you to share specifically what you don't understand or "agree" with.

I don't hate you either.

I just don't agree that someone can be said to be "like Jesus" and condemn a-n-y person to hell. Regardless of the "love the sinner hate the sin" mantras and all the white-washing of religious-based homophobia, that is what is at the core of all anti-gay theology... a deep, ugly, fear-based anger that condemns all gay & lesbian people to hell. Some people call that hate. I'm not sure what to call it, I just know it needs to stop.

[get_unlost]

Well I don't agree with any of it, so pick any specific you want.

I hear a few saying they didn't choose to be this way. I think at least most of it is environment, but regardless, if you call yourself Christian as some gays do, it is your responsibility to deny self.

But I've had gay friends before and have tried to understand. One of them died of AIDS and the other lost touch after college. I knew 2 others who changed to heterosexuality.

Anyway, yeah I'll be your friends but I'll also challenge your motives. (Don't worry, I do this to non-gay people too.)

[NathanATX]

Well I don't agree with any of it, so pick any specific you want.

I hear a few saying they didn't choose to be this way. I think at least most of it is environment, but regardless, if you call yourself Christian as some gays do, it is your responsibility to deny self.

But I've had gay friends before and have tried to understand. One of them died of AIDS and the other lost touch after college. I knew 2 others who changed to heterosexuality.

Anyway, yeah I'll be your friends but I'll also challenge your motives. (Don't worry, I do this to non-gay people too.)

You'll not find me begging you to be my friend or needing your acceptance.

You're not here for conversation, you're here for condemnation... and that is not welcome.

[awediot]

Hi Get Unlost,

It is so hard to describe how any one of us reaches the point of feeling undamned by a feeling we have repented of in vain. Could you prefer the other gender? What if you were told you were going to hell if you didn't? What if you were only TOLD that, but never felt the slightest conviction by God that this were so? ... as for myself, I attempted suicide LONG after repenting and praying for a help that never came, and God let me know He prefered me alive and as gay as the day He made me... This is not exactly the path I recomend for others... I denied myself near to death, God said good enough, now get on with your life... Crazy huh?

[BruceChris]

I have to warn you that there are some here who will feel attacked, and will resent it very much. I hope that most of us can just turn the othercheek, and not choose to feel threatened.

I think we're going to have to take it very slow here.

First of all, you ask "How can we justify ourselves?" We do not feel that we need to be justified to you. We believe that we are justified to God, and that is between God and us. God created us, and God loves us. We only hope that you can learn to accept us, and you don't have to do it all at once.

I guess I might next ask, is it more important to love one another, even to love your enemies, if you see someone as such, or to sit in judgement?

Peace and Much Love, BruceChris

[NathanATX]

Well I don't agree with any of it, so pick any specific you want.

I hear a few saying they didn't choose to be this way. I think at least most of it is environment, but regardless, if you call yourself Christian as some gays do, it is your responsibility to deny self.

But I've had gay friends before and have tried to understand. One of them died of AIDS and the other lost touch after college. I knew 2 others who changed to heterosexuality.

Anyway, yeah I'll be your friends but I'll also challenge your motives. (Don't worry, I do this to non-gay people too.)

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[get_unlost]

well i guess nate thinks i'm a threat. It doesn't seem like he & some others want to welcome me.

anyway, bruce- i guess we could substitute the word "validate" in place of "justify".


Awediot has an honest answer. I would not want someone telling me I had to _________ if I was conviced otherwise. However I would still be open enough to listen to anyone about the subject in order to get wisdom.
Does your wisdom come from yourself?

[Jamie McDaniel]

We welcome people who are on the journey to understanding and accepting gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people.

get_unlost, are you open to hearing the testimonies of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people who have both heard and accepted the invitation to sit at God's table? Who have experienced God's blessing on their loving relationships with their partners?

Some of us were raised in progressive churches and thus faced little problems coming out.

Others of us grew up in conservative Christian denominations and fought our orientation for years and years. We found true healing when we accepted God's love and acceptance and stopped yelling at the potter, "Why did you make me like this?"

If you are wrestling with your understanding of gay people, we can respect that, we can work with that. If, on the otherhand, you are certain in a belief that we are "lost" then you should turn and go. Because here is a truth -- it is hard for legalists to rejoice at the sight of God's inclusiveness. Like Peter on the rooftop, they find themselves yelling back to God, "Surely not, Lord!"

[awediot]

Awediot has an honest answer. I would not want someone telling me I had to _________ if I was conviced otherwise. However I would still be open enough to listen to anyone about the subject in order to get wisdom.
Does your wisdom come from yourself?

I am and have been open for some 30 years and know the scripture you are likely looking for a way to post like the back of my hand; as most here do... Question is, would you be able to prefer the other gender? What if God Himself told you to? ...you may pray for help, you may choose to never act and be alone the rest of your life, but as Mat. 5:28 says,
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. you cannot even think of your (wife/husband/ whatever) in a passionate way again; or go to Hell... and say you try, but your fears and pleads for God's help only get you hit on more and seem to put more temptation in your path. You sense God laughing at you, mocking every spontaneous, lonley thought of having a partner, of ever gaining that which lust is for, and knowing that heartbreak is just a weakness that only Damns you that much more... Its pretty ugly and A Heaven ruled by such a Deity is no draw... Try it.

Where do I get my wisdom? Well, not sure I'd call it wisdom, but it comes from the relationship the Bible has taught me to forge with God Himself; from prayer, discernment, observation, the saving grace I have recieved from Jesus Christ, from questioning and being given answers... stuff like that.

[tdogg]

I personally don't believe the Bible is a textbook, inerrant and unchanging. Instead, I believe it is more of a personal guide, to be used by each individual as needed, with much thought and prayer.

If there are any out there who believe it is a textbook, to be taken literally and unchanging, then I challenge that person to live by the literal meaning of the Bible in its entirety, every day of their life. I guarantee you, no such person exists in this world. If one wanted to do just that, their dilemma would be how to live in this modern world by the Old Testament, and then even if they could manage, which translation is the true translation by which they should be living. Such a conflict.

It's much easier to have a personal relationship with the Lord!

[get_unlost]

Tdogg sent me a private message about her background explaining her journey. It was informative without being jerky. I think some people must think I'm some kind of spy waiting to assassinate them. But let's give it time before you cut me off as your enemy.
I have another question for all, but let's not get graphic in the replies. I'm wondering what it is about the same sex that attracts you to them. For me this is a foreign concept. But is it that they can relate to you more, or is it just in the category of that the opposite sex has offended you so much that they have become repulsive? I don't need gross details, just give get the general idea over.

[Zerbie]

Maybe this will help: I am bisexual. I have been in love with women and in love with men. What attracted me was the compassion in each person's heart, the kindness and light of love in their eyes and their faces, the way they treat people gently and respectfully, their intelligence, willingness to listen, hear, and respond. If I fall in love with the being that lives in their heart, I have fallen in love with them completely.

Maybe it helped, I don't know. Maybe I have confused you more, I hope not. Listen to the others, their experiences are different again.

Although, for the sake of a parallel argument: What is it about the opposite sex that attracts you?

[awediot]

...and I'm light years from Zerb's deep, para-magnetism. Base animal attraction came and still does come first. The physique, stubble and coarseness of masculenity has always appealed to me more than the soft, curvyness of the feminine... Then all Zerb said kicks in; well, Half. Women have some natural atributes I adore, and some that get on my last nerve... as do men. How do you explain why you like your favorite color?

[tdogg]

What attracts me to a woman? Well, for starters I am physically attracted to women for their curves, smoothness, softness, strength that lies beneath that softness. My partner is a tomboi - she likes to act tough, but underneath it all is a kind heart of gold, soft hearted and loving, not afraid to cry at a stupid movie or a touching moment. The way they look through their eyes, it's different than the way a man looks (not their appearance but how they see things through their own eyes - hard concept for me to explain). Their laugh, well, I should clarify, in general - not all women laugh attractively to me. Mostly, I am attracted to characteristics that aren't apparent. I am fulfilled in my need areas with a woman, as I am not with a man - emotional, physical, mental and spiritual. My heart connects in a way it doesn't with a man.

Zerbie says it right - the reasons are not all that different than what would attract someone to the opposite sex. Or what might attract someone to either/both sexes. I do find some men attractive physically and to a certain extent emotionally. However, it's very different than how I feel about an attractive woman. I could go on, but my rice is cookin & gotta check it!!

[Jennifer5]

Here's another point of view... I'm actually straight or bi (I don't really know for sure yet,)... but the same thing attracts me to a person as it does for anyone else (with a few exceptions), I love a person's character more than anything... looks... looks, are just a nice bonus, I don't think that the gender of a person can ever really say as much as just who they really are and how they treat their friends/family and even enemies... to me the gender is never really the point.

What about you though... what attracks you to a person?

[get_unlost]

Maybe this will help: I am bisexual. I have been in love with women and in love with men. What attracted me was the compassion in each person's heart, the kindness and light of love in their eyes and their faces, the way they treat people gently and respectfully, their intelligence, willingness to listen, hear, and respond. If I fall in love with the being that lives in their heart, I have fallen in love with them completely.

Maybe it helped, I don't know. Maybe I have confused you more, I hope not. Listen to the others, their experiences are different again.

Although, for the sake of a parallel argument: What is it about the opposite sex that attracts you?

just because its natural

[Jennifer5]

yes and for many, it's natural for them to be attracted to the same sex

[get_unlost]

The reason I'm attracted to the opposite sex is because it natural.
I think a couple of you are trying to say that's why you like the same sex.

Why do I like my favoirite color is just because it looks good, so I guess that was your point.

Sorry if these questions seem stupid to you all. You have to realize you have been dealing with feelings that I've never had an ounce of.

Does anyone have other questions for me? If not, Ill go on trying to understand more.

At the risk of turning you off and cursing me, I admit at this point I think homosexuality is sinful. However, I also see a lot of heterosexual sin that is overlooked in the church. Seems like they feel better emphasizing others sins. Anyway, for all of us, Jesus forgives and gives the power to overcome it all. I admire many of you that have struggled honestly with the issue. But the heart is deceitful and I don't give a free pass to people who are led by lust and think that God will understand.

[Daniel]

The reason I'm attracted to the opposite sex is because it natural.
I think a couple of you are trying to say that's why you like the same sex.

Why do I like my favoirite color is just because it looks good, so I guess that was your point.

Sorry if these questions seem stupid to you all. You have to realize you have been dealing with feelings that I've never had an ounce of.

Does anyone have other questions for me? If not, Ill go on trying to understand more.

At the risk of turning you off and cursing me, I admit at this point I think homosexuality is sinful. However, I also see a lot of heterosexual sin that is overlooked in the church. Seems like they feel better emphasizing others sins. Anyway, for all of us, Jesus forgives and gives the power to overcome it all. I admire many of you that have struggled honestly with the issue. But the heart is deceitful and I don't give a free pass to people who are led by lust and think that God will understand.



While I understand that you might have a 'natural' curiosity about what makes gay people attractive to each other, it seems a moment of introspection on your part would tell you that gay persons are capable of the same love and affection that straight people feel. That is pretty much a no-brainer, don't you think? But since you use the word lust and imply that gay christians are decieved, it hardly seems any introspection or compassion has taken place, has it?

I have to say that I find your interest in what I find 'attractive' in my spouse a rather voyeuristic question. And the condemnation slipping out from under your pen is most unattractive.

[NathanATX]

Tdogg sent me a private message about her background explaining her journey. It was informative without being jerky. I think some people must think I'm some kind of spy waiting to assassinate them. But let's give it time before you cut me off as your enemy.
I have another question for all, but let's not get graphic in the replies. I'm wondering what it is about the same sex that attracts you to them. For me this is a foreign concept. But is it that they can relate to you more, or is it just in the category of that the opposite sex has offended you so much that they have become repulsive? I don't need gross details, just give get the general idea over.

I don't feel threatened by you. At all.

I do not, however, feel any need to sugarcoat my response to you.

I am telling you today, that there is no place on this message board for you to vomit up judgement and condemnation.

"Vomit up" is strong language, yes. Yet it doesn't compare to the forcefullness and the violence of telling a gay or lesbian person that they are destined for hell.

I'm sorry if you feel I am being abrasive with you. Until you show genuine interest and demonstrate friendliness/empathy/compassion, I will assume you are to convert "lost" souls to your view of God's will. If you continue down the path of lying about what you're actually doing, please know that you will be confronted with your untruths.

Being a part of this community is an invitation to share yourself fully and to experience the authentic sharing of others. It is about community.

This is a sacred space. I invite you to share this space with us openly, humbly and graciously. If you accept this invitation I can promise you that both of our lives will be enriched.

If, however, you are not able to share yourself openly, humbly and graciously, maybe this is not the place for you.

[awediot]

I don't give a free pass to people who are led by lust and think that God will understand.
No one here is asking for your pass to worship "your" God, which clearly isn't free. You are not addressing horney adolescents who cannot distinguish animal lust from the mature and Holy desire to be in a committed, monogamous, faithful and loving relationship. And we do not expect you to speak for what God may or may not understand about things you obviously don't fathom... We are not your project, or your students, we are not ignorant of what you seem to have to offer as though for the first time, nor find your heart any less deceitful than our own... (my own anyway) The high horse bit will get real old, real fast, and the most brutal things on earth are done with the best of intention and out of "love."

One more question; usually homosexuality is an off the radar topic for most people. They just don't care one way or the other, unless they have a friend, family member or they themselves are dealing with the issue that has been thrust upon them... If you don't mind my asking, why your interest?

[tdogg]

I don't feel threatened by you. At all.

I do not, however, feel any need to sugarcoat my response to you.

I am telling you today, that there is no place on this message board for you to vomit up judgement and condemnation.

"Vomit up" is strong language, yes. Yet it doesn't compare to the forcefullness and the violence of telling a gay or lesbian person that they are destined for hell.

I'm sorry if you feel I am being abrasive with you. Until you show genuine interest and demonstrate friendliness/empathy/compassion, I will assume you are to convert "lost" souls to your view of God's will. If you continue down the path of lying about what you're actually doing, please know that you will be confronted with your untruths.

Being a part of this community is an invitation to share yourself fully and to experience the authentic sharing of others. It is about community.

This is a sacred space. I invite you to share this space with us openly, humbly and graciously. If you accept this invitation I can promise you that both of our lives will be enriched.

If, however, you are not able to share yourself openly, humbly and graciously, maybe this is not the place for you.

GU - we are all individuals on these forums - we will all act and react differently to the same situation. Nate is a straight forward, direct and honest person - he tells it like it is. Just the facts, no sweet-coating, no hate. Some here will be a bit soft to you for a while (until they find out they were engaged with dishonesty), some will be soft forever even after finding out they were 'used', some will avoid joining in the discussion altogether. When you invite dialogue you're going to get a full round of varied responses (or non -responses). It's like my grandma always said - if you can't stand the heat get outta the kitchen. I hope you are being honest and forthright in your inquiries and replies. I for one don't take kindly to being used and made to feel a fool. I will be kind and a bit soft until that point.

If you are truly seeking answers, it would be advisable not to put anyone off by characterizing them with various adjectives. Be open minded and open with your heart, there is much to learn from everyone here. The most important thing about the forums is that those who hang out feel safe and unthreatened. Nate is absolutely right - if your approach is open, humble and gracious we will all welcome you with open arms (albeit sometimes direct and to the point). However, if you do have a less than honest motive, it will be discovered and unwelcome. Again, I truly hope you are honest in your search. I rather enjoy talking with you and it would be quite sad to find out otherwise.

[tdogg]

just because its natural

I am attracted to women because it is natural for me. But there are many things that attract me to women - physical appearance and not so apparent. Attraction is individual - just because I'm attracted to women doesn't mean I am to every one.

I found it interesting that your only stated reason for being attracted to someone of the opposite sex was that it is natural. It doesn't sound convincing to me man. Not at all. Try again.

Read back thru this thread. Those that did answer your question, did so with honest detail. Reasons. Characteristics. Definitions. By the way, being attracted to women is completely and totally natural for me. Don't need anyone else to tell me yes or no. It's my thing.

I have to ask the same question as Awe - why are you interested. Seems like you could get the answers you may be seeking from your friends, so why SF? Not saying you shouldn't be here, just curious as to why you are.

[keltic63]

Hi get_unlost! YOU are my one project this morning before I head out to clean and paint at my new house! I'm going to try to respond to most of your posts in this thread.


I can't understand how this lifestyle is justified. I read a lot on this site including exerpts from books, but I just don't buy it. I'm not filled with hate, I just don't agree. I guess I'm here just to see what your reasoning is.

First off, it's not a "lifestyle." that is insulting. It's an orientation. It's not open to your disagreeing or agreeing; it just "is." You could just as easily ask me to explain why my eyes are blue or why I decided to go bald in my 20's.

Well I don't agree with any of it, so pick any specific you want.

I hear a few saying they didn't choose to be this way. I think at least most of it is environment, but regardless, if you call yourself Christian as some gays do, it is your responsibility to deny self.

But I've had gay friends before and have tried to understand. One of them died of AIDS and the other lost touch after college. I knew 2 others who changed to heterosexuality.

Anyway, yeah I'll be your friends but I'll also challenge your motives. (Don't worry, I do this to non-gay people too.)

again, what's there to agree or disagree about? If you've heard a "few" saying they didn't choose to be this way, why did you not believe them? are you as suspicious about your straight christian friends? why would you be such a pharisee to your christian brothers and sisters, tying a load to their backs? (telling them they must deny their orientation) it's a load that you can never bear yourself, and you certainly don't know what it is you are asking of your gay/lesbian brothers and sisters.
regarding your gay friends; I'm sorry that one died of AIDS. How did you lose touch with the other? why do you suppose that happened? of the 2 that changed to heterosexuality, how do you know that they have actually changed? I was in a long straight marriage, so you could say I behaved heterosexually, but the entire time I was gay and knew I was gay and "denied" myself to the point of an Eating Disorder which put me dangerously close to death, albeit a slow one. After I came out, some friends told me that they knew I was gay, and was really surprised that I had gotten married and had kids.
questioning motives: well, you can see already that we're going to question yours!

well i guess nate thinks i'm a threat. It doesn't seem like he & some others want to welcome me.

anyway, bruce- i guess we could substitute the word "validate" in place of "justify".


Awediot has an honest answer. I would not want someone telling me I had to _________ if I was conviced otherwise. However I would still be open enough to listen to anyone about the subject in order to get wisdom.
Does your wisdom come from yourself?

let me welcome you, but I will say I am suspicious. Interestingly, you haven't said anything new in your questions. we've all heard them before. If it sounds like we're not "open enough to listen to anyone about the subject" it's not that it's you, it's that you haven't presented anything new, and what you have presented is pretty basic stuff.

Tdogg sent me a private message about her background explaining her journey. It was informative without being jerky. I think some people must think I'm some kind of spy waiting to assassinate them. But let's give it time before you cut me off as your enemy.
I have another question for all, but let's not get graphic in the replies. I'm wondering what it is about the same sex that attracts you to them. For me this is a foreign concept. But is it that they can relate to you more, or is it just in the category of that the opposite sex has offended you so much that they have become repulsive? I don't need gross details, just give get the general idea over.

Of course, same sex attraction is a foreign concept to you, you're straight. Society, religion, etc. isn't demanding that you change that about yourself.
I find it funny that you would think the opposite sex has offended us so much that we are repulsed. Think about what you know about gay men: many of them (us) absolutely love women and do our best to make them beautiful creatures. Fashion and makeup industries are filled with gay men! We're the ones who take your straight women dancing (you straight guys won't do it!) and we are their dates for family weddings when they aren't seeing someone special. OK, so that is stereotyping to some extent, there are gay truckers and construction workers too (Thank You Jesus!) All that was to say, it has nothing to do with being repulsed.

just because its natural

OK, it's natural for me to be attracted to men.

The reason I'm attracted to the opposite sex is because it natural.
I think a couple of you are trying to say that's why you like the same sex.

Why do I like my favoirite color is just because it looks good, so I guess that was your point.

Sorry if these questions seem stupid to you all. You have to realize you have been dealing with feelings that I've never had an ounce of.

Does anyone have other questions for me? If not, Ill go on trying to understand more.

At the risk of turning you off and cursing me, I admit at this point I think homosexuality is sinful. However, I also see a lot of heterosexual sin that is overlooked in the church. Seems like they feel better emphasizing others sins. Anyway, for all of us, Jesus forgives and gives the power to overcome it all. I admire many of you that have struggled honestly with the issue. But the heart is deceitful and I don't give a free pass to people who are led by lust and think that God will understand.

why do you think Homosexuality is sinful?
divorce is given a "pass" in nearly all protestant churches, despite the very clear teachings of Jesus in the new testament.
We also believe that Jesus forgives and gives the power to overcome. Indeed, many of us feel like Jesus has helped us overcome great adversity, self-loathing, and our own prisons of homophobia freeing us to live as God created us: Gay and Lesbian Children of God. But in your words that commend us for our struggle, I sense that you don't believe us when we say that we have been delivered and set free. why is that?

Your words about the heart being "deceitful" and people who are "led by lust" are insulting. This shows your heart and what you truly think of us.

Would you discount the experiences we have of God? so many who come with accusations against us (pre-judged, mind you!) ask us to justify, or validate, then claim that our journey with God is not real. That's being double-judged! some even say that we are so deceived that we don't even know that we're lying, or that we're unable to know the difference between good and evil.


So, tell me, why are you here? what do you hope to learn from this experience in the soulforce forums? are you really open to this discussion? or will you, like so many others, shake the dust from your feet because we don't come around like you think we should?

[get_unlost]

I find that a lot of you here are defensive, I assume because so many have critisized you mercilessly.
I'm not trying to bring up anything new. I'm here to get a picture of what is going on.
When I refer to following lusts, I'm not targeting gay people, but all mankind. I'm judging that by the record of history.
I do appreciate the answers to my questions, though some find it hard to stay on the topic because they think I was to cut them down. I am attempting to understand the nature of homosexuality. I am letting the administrator/moderators decide if they think I am out of line or needs to be posted in another section.
I do not understand why I am getting accused of condemnation towards others. Is that an automatic response to any questions?
As I said I did have friends in the homosexual community that either died or I lost touch with. I may have one relative that is gay, but we were never close because we don't cross paths often. However I was thinking of trying to establish some friendships and this forum could help me learn some of the ropes. Obviously I've already made some mistakes because a few already have their guns locked and loaded and aimed towards me.
Is this a game of "I'll hurt you before you hurt me any more than I have been"? Do I bother you, or is it you are tired of hearing the feelings within yourself that you've had to deal with for so long?
Tdogg is giving me perspective that is more what i was hoping for.
I also learned from keltic and another post that "lifestyle" is insulting to you. I hope it's understood that when I say "you" I am generalizing in order to keep my statements basic. So I think when I say "lifestyle" it is taken being associated with a chosen endeavor, wheras you think it was that way from the beiginning (born that way).

Awediot, are you in he st. louis area? Effingham?
Where's the center of the U.S.?

Thanks for all your replies.

[zimnah]

Wow, this one is touchy.
I'm relatively new here, but I can tellyou that, having admitted that I am bisexual, it is, quite simply, a person's soul that attracts me. Their spirituality, their convictions, and, yes, even their need for comfort that I can provide. I believe wholeheartedly in monogamy. But the soul is first, then the package it is housed in. I believe love comes from the soul, and therefore should be defined by the soul. After all, it is within our souls that we are most in G-d's image.

[Daniel]

I do not understand why I am getting accused of condemnation towards others. Is that an automatic response to any questions?

Obviously I've already made some mistakes because a few already have their guns locked and loaded and aimed towards me.
Is this a game of "I'll hurt you before you hurt me any more than I have been"? Do I bother you, or is it you are tired of hearing the feelings within yourself that you've had to deal with for so long?

A very provocative satement- this last sentence.

I hope you reread your own words, because they are very judgemental. It reveals that you assume gay people are sinful and their own thoughts are 'convicting' them of that sin. How you manage to assume what gay people are experiencing is beyond me. Asking about their lives and then throwing out a bomb of a statement like this is what sets people off.

The judgement seeps out of your posts like water under a closed door.

[suzer1013]

Hi, GU. While I can appreciate your apparent desire to come here in sincerity to gain some understanding, you are experiencing "defensiveness" because you have used certain buzzwords that are used against GLBT people all the time. Frankly, we are tired of hearing them. "Lifestyle" is one of those buzzwords. Who we love is not a "lifestyle," any more than a committed heterosexual relationship could be called a lifestyle. To have one's most serious, intimate, life-long love called a simple "lifestyle choice" is insulting, and you may or may not realize that. And I think many who condemn GLBT folks continue to insist on using that term in order to demean our relationships and our reality. That is why you will experience some "defensiveness" regarding that term. (I tend to think it is not defensiveness, though, to challenge these words and terms used to describe us -- it is confronting lies with truth, and I'm not sure I would really call that being "defensive" as much as I would consider it standing up for the truth and what is right.)

But the heart is deceitful and I don't give a free pass to people who are led by lust and think that God will understand.

We have heard over and over again from those who condemn us that our hearts are just deceiving us, that we want a free pass to sin, that we are led by lust. Again, buzzwords that raise a red flag and put people on the defensive. When these words are used, we understand a specific agenda to be at hand, and they are generally not used by someone who wants a genuine understanding of our lives or a loving conversation -- thus, the reactions you have seen (though, frankly, I think everyone in this conversation has been more than willing to listen, explain and converse -- everyone has a different "style" of conversation, and I hope you will not be off-put by that).

That said, I also understand that there are folks out there, perhaps like you, have have been so schooled in those type of buzzwords, that perhaps you don't know any other way to describe GLBT people. People have been taught to connect these words with GLBT people on such a regular basis, that I pretty much expect to hear such language every day.

What you may not realize or understand is that we all have gone through long and difficult journeys to come to the understanding that we have about ourselves. I personally suffered from depression my whole life, went through many years of therapy, the last being a six year course of therapy that finally freed me from the deep depression I was in. What freed me was finally being able to admit that I am a lesbian. The story is much, much longer, but I haven't decided yet if it is worth telling here. Suffice it to say that many of us here are very educated (book-wise and/or street-wise and/or life-wise -- there are so many types of education!), many of us have been through years of therapy (regular therapy and I think some have even experienced the noxious "ex-gay" therapies) in order to come to grips with something that society and religion have beat into us is "wrong," and we have spent so many hours, even years, in conversation with people who claim to try to understand, when all they really want to do is "convert" us to their way of thinking, and if we don't "convert", they damn us to hell and leave. Many of us have spent our lives in church, seeking relationship with God, know scripture backwards and forwards and inside out. Most of us have finally come to the understanding that we are loved by God, that homosexuality is not a sin (I repeat, not a sin) and that those who would condemn us will use the most dire spiritual violence to destroy our faith.

People continually ask us to "prove" that homosexuality is not a sin, to back it up with scripture, etc., and we've discussed it ad nauseum. Repeated explanations often do no good, and often simply subject us to the same spiritual violence over and over. The seeker who comes here trying to genuinely listen and understand will not subject us to this again. Read the past posts here. There are also other links you can go to to understand the reasons, scriptural and otherwise, that homosexuality is not a sin. Try www.godmademegay.com and www.whosoever.org as a start.

It is difficult to have this conversation. Sometimes I think the time for conversation is over, but I try again and again to engage people in Christian love. But when one has experienced the pain, over and over again, of spiritual abuse, being asked to validate or justify our lives over and over again, it is hard to continue the conversation. Does that make any sense? If we can all have patience with each other, perhaps the conversation can continue. And I also am open to disagreement -- it is fine -- as long as we are all still loving and respectful to one another. I can't change anyone's opinion, really, regarding whether homosexuality is a sin -- there are some who will believe that forever and not want to change their understanding of that. And while I don't agree with that position, everyone has a right to their opinion. What I cannot abide is anyone using their opinion to condemn or deny rights to another person.

Hetero people are not asked the same questions about their lives. The questions you ask come from a place of thinking GLBT people are different than hetero people and that we somehow have to validate that difference for you. We do not have to validate that. Our relationships are just the same as hetero relationships in every way, except that it is with a person of the same sex. Several people here have been very open and honest in response to your questions already, and are willing to continue to do so. But doing so also opens us up to the possibility of being hurt, and I hope you can appreciate how using certain words and terms that describe GLBT people negatively can wound and cause a self-protective response.

Susan

[get_unlost]

Daniel- no idea how that is judgemental. Perhaps it is misinterpretation.

Suzer- your explanations are making sense. If this is the case, how can anyone who isn't on the same page as gays communicate without making you upset?
Let me pose this question: If you see something wrong with someone else, do you let it slide? Try to look at this question not pertaining to sexuality, but another subject where someone is in error. Here's a hypothetical example: I have a friend named Steve that cusses. He's done it all his life. When a priest walks into a room and they begin exchanging stories, Steve throws in a few choice words.
Should the priest disregard his language or try to correct Steve? If so, how? If not, why not? Remember, from Steve's view, this is completely normal. The priest knows otherwise and feels obligated to help out. Steve doesn't see the need to be helped because words are just words and cusswords are just made up expressions (he's using them, not with the intention to degrade). Yet the priest knows Steve's mouth has an affect on others. Also whenever people have tried to talk to Steve in the past he thinks he's being treated unfairly. What would be fair & right in this scenario?

[Steven E. Webster]

Daniel- no idea how that is judgemental.

[snip]

Let me pose this question: If you see something wrong with someone else, do you let it slide? Try to look at this question not pertaining to sexuality, but another subject where someone is in error. Here's a hypothetical example: I have a friend named Steve that cusses. He's done it all his life. When a priest walks into a room and they begin exchanging stories, Steve throws in a few choice words.
Should the priest disregard his language or try to correct Steve? If so, how? If not, why not? Remember, from Steve's view, this is completely normal. The priest knows otherwise and feels obligated to help out. Steve doesn't see the need to be helped because words are just words and cusswords are just made up expressions (he's using them, not with the intention to degrade). Yet the priest knows Steve's mouth has an affect on others. Also whenever people have tried to talk to Steve in the past he thinks he's being treated unfairly. What would be fair & right in this scenario?

Still don't know how you are being judgmental, heh?

It seems to me that you are not here to learn anything. You seem to be here on a mission to "proselytize" or to "save the lost" or some such thing. Isn't it past time for a moderator to step in and put an end to this fruitless sham of a "dialogue."

If, on the other hand, you are willing to put yourself in the role of the "Steve" in your example, and consider that you seriously need to learn something from us just as "Steve" needs to learn something from the priest in your example, than maybe there can be a real and fruitful dialogue.

Unless you are admitting your need to "get_unlost" rather than preaching at us to "get unlost," I don't think you have any place here. Just post for us the link to "Exodus International," call it a day, and be gone.

Steven Webster

[BruceChris]

But I might as well just put it right out here.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John: Perhaps the issue between us can be seen very simply. I believe that the central message of the Bible is God's unconditional love for us all. You seem to have a need to give predominance to believing the writings of the Bible literally.


I interpret the Bible in terms of my understanding of God's love, while you apparently interpret God's love in terms of your understanding of the Bible.

Please re-read that last sentence.


Of course what I am asking you is, which do you believe is more important, your understanding of the Bible, or God's love?

Apparently you believe that God has created me in a cursed condition, in some way, and that it is God's will that I suffer because of it. You seem to have faith in that belief.

I have faith in the belief that God has created me as I am, because He loves me just as he created me, and He has created me to celebrate life, not to suffer for something that I did not choose. Your arguments will not change my faith, an I do not ask that mine change yours, but I do ask you to accept me, and love me, as you should love any sinner, any Child of God.

If I have a choice between sitting around and feeling terrible about being a sinner, or going out and spreading God's love in the world, just what do you think God would want me, or you to do?

Now I would like to push you a little here. I would ask you to answer some of the questions that I have asked here. They were not just rhetorical. Do you, in so many words, have a greater need to believe in God's love, or in the literal meaning of the writings in the Bible?

With God's love, BruceChris

[Jamie McDaniel]

Isn't it past time for a moderator to step in and put an end to this fruitless sham of a "dialogue."
I agree. A lot of energy has been put into some very good posts explaining why a person's sexual orientation is a big part of who we are.

Unfortunately, it all seems lost on get_unlost.

Thread closed.