Why is homosexuality attacked so much by Christians?

[otseng]

I'm not exactly sure where this thread best fits, but "Faith and Nonviolence" seems to be best one. As least the "faith" part does.

I'd like to ask the audience - Why do you think homosexuality is attacked so much by Christians? I don't see the fervor by Christians in attacking other things such as divorce, adultery, pornography, gambling, etc. But, with homosexuality, it seems like it's the number one target among Christians. Why do you think it is so?

[BruceChris]

It's late, and I'll give this my best shot. Why? You can get almost all of the answers that we've come up with by reading our threads, if you do a little digging.

Why? Because we say that what has always been considered a sin is not so, if you read the Bible a bit more carefully. Because some of us say that we are born this way, and that there is more and more scientific evidence to show this. I get the impression that many fundies LOVE being "attacked" by science, as they see it. It gives them an excuse to be "defenders of the faith".

Because I suspect that many of them fear that if prohibitions against homosexuality are shown to be wrong, their whole belief system will be threatened, or just collapse. Because as I see it, most conservative Christians have a fear-based belief system, and need to have a fear-based belief system. They need to have an enemy, an outside threat. Once they know what that threat is, they can concentrate on destroying the threat, and not have to face their own inner doubts. That's about all I've got, right now. I'm gonna go to bed.

Some of you other guys must ahve sumptin' to say. Guys/gals?

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Zerbie]

Great question, I'd like to see this one stay up top for a while. But if I'm to weigh in at all on this one, it'll HAVE to wait til morning, and maybe another few days til I have ample time to put two brain cells together on a challenging topic I'm not the best informed on. . .

This question has sooooo many layers. . .Chris hit on a few points that from my own observations, seem valid.

[otseng]

Because we say that what has always been considered a sin is not so, if you read the Bible a bit more carefully.
This is a possible explanation. There aren't many people out there claiming that adultery is not a sin. But, then again, I think most people (including Christians) would say that divorce is not a sin. But there's no outcry against divorced people. And there's no outcry against pornographers either. So, it's probably more than just saying that it's not a sin.

I have my own theories on this, but I'd like to hear what others have to say.

[NathanATX]

I'm not exactly sure where this thread best fits, but "Faith and Nonviolence" seems to be best one. As least the "faith" part does.

I'd like to ask the audience - Why do you think homosexuality is attacked so much by Christians? I don't see the fervor by Christians in attacking other things such as divorce, adultery, pornography, gambling, etc. But, with homosexuality, it seems like it's the number one target among Christians. Why do you think it is so?

Simple:

Fundamentalism requires an enemy, a target. It can't exist in a vaccum of love and equality.

Typically, targets are chosen because they seem to have little connection to the fundamentalist.

The fundamentalist Muslim attacks "the infidel."
The fundamentalist straight Christian attacks the flaming queers.

Fundamentalists see glbt people as "other" and "less than" they are. They convince their followers that glbt people are evil, sick, and dangerous and have nothing in common with the loving, human, God-fearing characteristics they all possess. The followers then have no problem committing violent and atrocious acts against glbt people.

Churches condemn glbt members to hell and excommunicate them.
Families abuse, disown and abandon their glbt children.

All in the name of God.

...

So, it's not really about sexuality after all. It's about who God is. It's about their theology. It's about their superiority, feeling they are the only "true Christians. It's about them subduing God and using Him to reinforce their prejudices, fears, and attempts to hold power over others. It is heresy.

[Daniel]

The matter of gay people and their being attacked by 'Christians' has eveything to do, in my mind, with politics, which is a key factor. One has only to look at the last two presidential elections to observe how those professing the Christian faith used gay people as a wedge issue. There was a time when politicos got a great deal of mileage from the controversy over abortion, but the latter does not produce the same dividends that the controversy over homosexuality and gay marriage now yields. One wonders who is using whom. Do 'Christians' think they are influencing candidates or is it the other way around?

Conservative Christians also seem to be greatly concerned with the legislation of their version of morality- being gay is, after all, considered a sin- as well as the 'christianization' of the country. My AG days tell me that they need everyone on their team. This may seem overly reductive, but the logical conclusion of their own thinking makes their version of faith totalitarian in expression. You either join the team or you go to hell.

[keltic63]

there are a lot of good points in this thread. I agree with Daniel's analysis of the politics and moving toward a theocracy. I don't think this is a new concept, just a new "target" when the old one gets worn out. I'd say at this point, abortion has run its course, evolution just doesn't get the kind of play nor does it provide the kind of enemy the far right needs, and the war on drugs is so 1980's! I remember sitting in a church history course in college (religious studies minor in addition to my music major) and being very intrigued about the causes of the Civil War. Back then the Abolitionists believed that they needed to prepare the Earth for the Return of Christ, or that Christ would not return to such an evil world. They decided to clean it up by getting rid of slavery; this was the one thing that would herald the return of Jesus. So while there were political and economical aspects involved, much of the driving force was religious. Today we have a situation in which the fundies have found something so foreign to them as straight christians that it is a great rallying point. They get to persecute us, hide that persecution in a veil of "love" because they "love the sinner, hate the sin." They claim to be rescuing society from evil and leading sinners (homos) to Christ, so they get to fulfill the Great Commission. As Nathan said, Fundies need the "other" because they get to say "I'm a sinner saved by grace, but thank God I'm not like 'those' people." It just so happens that glbt people are the ones filling in the blank for 'those' people.

[NathanATX]

The matter of gay people and their being attacked by 'Christians' has eveything to do, in my mind, with politics, which is a key factor. One has only to look at the last two presidential elections to observe how those professing the Christian faith used gay people as a wedge issue. There was a time when politicos got a great deal of mileage from the controversy over abortion, but the latter does not produce the same dividends that the controversy over homosexuality and gay marriage now yields. One wonders who is using whom. Do 'Christians' think they are influencing candidates or is it the other way around?

Conservative Christians also seem to be greatly concerned with the legislation of their version of morality- being gay is, after all, considered a sin- as well as the 'christianization' of the country. My AG days tell me that they need everyone on their team. This may seem overly reductive, but the logical conclusion of their own thinking makes their version of faith totalitarian in expression. You either join the team or you go to hell.

I just read this...
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/23/the-obvious-disconnect-between-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/

The last paragraph is chilling... should we start preparing for the onslaught?

[marutidas]

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/217/perspectives.html#john
This is an excerp from NOW on PBS.
I hope it brings us on step closer to the original question of why GLBTI is under fire. I think the answer lyes with the quote,
Religion is the Opiate of the people.

[otseng]

Simple:
Fundamentalism requires an enemy, a target.
Perhaps it requires a target. But why would homosexuality be the chosen target?

I don't think this is a new concept, just a new "target" when the old one gets worn out. I'd say at this point, abortion has run its course, evolution just doesn't get the kind of play nor does it provide the kind of enemy the far right needs, and the war on drugs is so 1980's!
If this is true, then the Christian attack on gays would be temporary also.

I agree with Daniel's analysis of the politics and moving toward a theocracy.
I would agree with this and I think it's part of the goal of the religious right. Though I wouldn't want to see a theocracy, there's a fine balance of legislating morality. Though we need some laws to keep people "good", there shouldn't be laws to make everyone the same.

[Blossom]

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/217/perspectives.html#john
This is an excerp from NOW on PBS.
I hope it brings us on step closer to the original question of why GLBTI is under fire. I think the answer lyes with the quote,
Religion is the Opiate of the people.

Religion comes quite naturally. People ask questions about the meaning of life, who God is, who we are, etc. A number of people on this board who are not Christian still seem to be religious/spiritual, seeking out the answers to life's questions. In interacting with them, I can hear their fundamental spiritual beliefs coming through. Religion--seeking out God--is natural. And even those who would say they are not religious have thier own religions--whether it is worship of thought and enlightenment--philosophy; worship of self--materialism; worship of nature--science; worship of human ability--humanism. (by the way, several of these do have a place in Christianity, but cannot be central).

Edit!
Just have to edit this last part a bit--there is no room for worship of science, human ability, or philosophy in Christianity. Only God through Jesus Christ is worshiped. But science, human ability and philosophy are all gifts from God that we can use for God's glory.

[NathanATX]

Perhaps it requires a target. But why would homosexuality be the chosen target?
Because they can easily cast the homosexual as "the other" and demonize them. They can play on people's ignorance and prejudice. They can incite fear and anger easily.

Why? We are an easy target... Or at least they think we are.

If this is true, then the Christian attack on gays would be temporary also.
Absolutely.

[keltic63]

If this is true, then the Christian attack on gays would be temporary also.


I believe it will be temporary. The question is "how long will it last?" and/or "how ugly will it get?"

[Dash]

Why is homosexuality attacked?

Maybe simply because we resist...



C.S. Lewis was also baffled by the focus of Christians on homosexuality. I don't have the book I need to quote from now, but I'll look it up tonight. (though my internet has been down for a couple days at home, so...)

[dewdrop_world]

Not much said so far about the politics of the reconstructionists and dominionists, who are quite plainly looking for a scapegoat to divert attention away from the utter bankruptcy of their own theology. What is galling is that so many mainline Christians fall for the rhetoric, hook, line and sinker.

There was a thread about that somewhere here, don't have time right now to search it out.

James

[Emproph]

Why is homosexuality attacked?

Maybe simply because we resist...
We are unrelenting in our insistence that we are fundamentally natural.

I agree that if it wasn’t us it would be someone else, but I do think we are the end of the line in that regard.

If we truly are natural, then unnatural is natural. It doesn’t get any more confusing than that. And the entire purpose of an all or nothing ideology that cannot possibly be wrong is to avoid confusion.

Technically speaking, if we exist then God does not. We represent the ultimate fear, a universe without meaning – without the meaning of God they love anyway.
__

And besides, what good is a universe without the power to define the God who created it?

I know I’d have to go insane... :D

[pnggrad79]

Why are we attacked? Because fundamentalists insist upon focusing on crucifying Jesus over and over again. They have no concept of grace or God's boundless love. They pay lip service to grace and faith and can't comprehend God loving someone different than they are. So they hide behind the spirit of religion and blast glbt people because they can't get outta their boxes, nor do they let God outta the box they have put him in.:rolleyes:

[tdogg]

Not much said so far about the politics of the reconstructionists and dominionists, who are quite plainly looking for a scapegoat to divert attention away from the utter bankruptcy of their own theology. What is galling is that so many mainline Christians fall for the rhetoric, hook, line and sinker.

There was a thread about that somewhere here, don't have time right now to search it out.

James

I think you have something James! Yup, if a few powerful extremists can focus the population's attention on one topic - in this case successfully on homosexuality - then their sins don't see so bad. Adultery - hey, it's not nearly as bad as HOMOSEXUALITY. Divorce, remarriage - well, gee, Jesus forgives so it's ok. Or my favorite, I wasn't a Christian at that time, so this is the only marriage that really counts. Smoking, drinking, gambling, and the like - nothing compared to the homos. So, by diverting attention elsewhere, they can live with themselves, the 'sheep' still look up to them, and they can keep on sinin'.

I also firmly believe that money is a huge factor - the few extremist leaders who excel at collecting 'sheep' who do not bother to think for themselves, exploit their favorite hate topic (LGBT) and rake in the bucks. Literally, rake it in, huge bundles of it, and as long as this is working they will not let us rest. If LGBTs become less of an issue, or no issue at all, then their money mill is gone. And I don't think they have a lot of topic choices for future focus.

This is an interesting thread, and I think everyone brought well thought ideas to the table, all of which most likely hold some degree of validity.

[Emproph]

I'd like to ask the audience - Why do you think homosexuality is attacked so much by Christians? I don't see the fervor by Christians in attacking other things such as divorce, adultery, pornography, gambling, etc. But, with homosexuality, it seems like it's the number one target among Christians. Why do you think it is so?Maybe simply because we resist... We are unrelenting in our insistence that we are fundamentally natural. Our consciences are clear.

Now the question remains as to why that bothers them so much.

To them we are litterally blind to the sea of "sin" that we swim in.

-That's all I got for now.

[otseng]

Maybe simply because we resist...

Smoking, drinking, gambling, and the like - nothing compared to the homos. So, by diverting attention elsewhere, they can live with themselves, the 'sheep' still look up to them, and they can keep on sinin'.

I also firmly believe that money is a huge factor - the few extremist leaders who excel at collecting 'sheep' who do not bother to think for themselves, exploit their favorite hate topic (LGBT) and rake in the bucks.
This is similar to what I have in mind.

Homosexuality is a target because it is a highly contentious area and gets lots of press. It is easy to whip up the emotions from participants on both sides of this issue. If two people are calmly debating a point, it's not going to draw a crowd. But if two people are fist fighting, then people will start gathering to see what is going on. Then reporters will come and tell even more people to come watch. The highly emotional charge will also cause people to take sides and not remain nuetral.

It is also a target because there are relatively few homosexuals in churches. So, it's easy to attack without offending one's own congregation. If divorce and pornography were attacked, then it'd hit too close to home.

Another reason is that homosexuals are organized as a group and have agendas. So, it becomes easier for someone to attack. There aren't groups of murderers or pornographers trying to lobby for legislation. If there were, murder and pornopraphy would probably be on the hit list of Christians too.

Another thought, I do think Christians should respond to homosexuality, but in a way different from how it's mainly approached now. But, that'll be another thread...

[Daniel]

Another reason is that homosexuals are organized as a group and have agendas. So, it becomes easier for someone to attack. There aren't groups of murderers or pornographers trying to lobby for legislation. If there were, murder and pornopraphy would probably be on the hit list of Christians too.

Another thought, I do think Christians should respond to homosexuality, but in a way different from how it's mainly approached now. But, that'll be another thread...

It's not clear to me who's 'side' you are on in the statement above. As result of the unfortunate grouping of gay people with murderers and pornogrphers in the same sentence, you seem to be insinuating a similarity of class.

'Homosexuals' do have an agenda. It's called equal rights. I would characterize this as a worthy and good thing for everyone involved.

I'm very curious to see where you're going with this.

[tdogg]

I agree with Daniel, was a bit taken back by your last post Otseng. Where ARE you going with this?

Homosexual agenda is, like Daniel said, nothing more or less than equality.

[otseng]

It's not clear to me who's 'side' you are on in the statement above. As result of the unfortunate grouping of gay people with murderers and pornogrphers in the same sentence, you seem to be insinuating a similarity of class.
Sorry, that was not my intention. I am not saying there is any similarity with those groups. Also, I'm trying to be very intentional of being a neutral observer without offending any particular side. I do realize the powder keg this topic is, so I am trying to be open on this topic without offending.

I'm very curious to see where you're going with this.
There's no hidden agenda with where I'm going in this thread. Simply giving my perspective on answering the question.

[Jamie McDaniel]

It is also a target because there are relatively few homosexuals in churches.
Church members would be surprised at just who is homosexual. Turn your gaydar up a notch, otseng.

Another reason is that homosexuals are organized as a group and have agendas. So, it becomes easier for someone to attack. There aren't groups of murderers or pornographers trying to lobby for legislation. If there were, murder and pornopraphy would probably be on the hit list of Christians too.
I really hope you understand why this is highly offensive, otseng. The struggle of a same-gender couple who have been together 30+ years, when they lobby for the 1000+ rights an opposite sex couple can get for a mere $35 and then you comparing that to "groups of murderers or pornographers."

Update: I just read your new post. I remain skeptical, but carry on.

[NathanATX]

Another reason is that homosexuals are organized as a group and have agendas. So, it becomes easier for someone to attack. There aren't groups of murderers or pornographers trying to lobby for legislation. If there were, murder and pornopraphy would probably be on the hit list of Christians too.

Yeah, agendas like equality and justice. What exactly is YOUR agenda, otseng? How would you feel being lumped in with "murderers and pornagraphers"?

Another thought, I do think Christians should respond to homosexuality, but in a way different from how it's mainly approached now. But, that'll be another thread...

Many of us here ARE Christian and believe me we are responding to homosexuality. We are honoring all we are created to be and determining to live lives of compassion, integrity and justice... in spite of insipid, abusive, demonizing attacks from other "Christians."

[otseng]

Church members would be surprised at just who is homosexual. Turn your gaydar up a notch, otseng.
Perhaps. But, I've not come across any who have professed to be gay in my involvement in churches for over 15 years. So, they are off my radar.

I really hope you understand why this is highly offensive, otseng. The struggle of a same-gender couple who have been together 30+ years, when they lobby for the 1000+ rights an opposite sex couple can get for a mere $35 and then you comparing that to "groups of murderers or pornographers."
Well, even though I've tried to tread softly, I guess I stepped into a landmine. :)

I do not believe I've stated whether it was wrong or right for gay lobbying. Only the observation that it is one reason for the Christian attacks. And to state again, I do not lump gays together with other groups.

[NathanATX]

And to state again, I do not lump gays together with other groups.

Then I trust you will not actually do so in the future.

[otseng]

Then I trust you will not actually do so in the future.
Certainly.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Church members would be surprised at just who is homosexual. Turn your gaydar up a notch, otseng.

Perhaps. But, I've not come across any who have professed to be gay in my involvement in churches for over 15 years.

Interesting. What denomination are you in, otseng? Because if you are active in a moderate or more liberal denomination, then this is either a sad reflection on the hold the closet has on us GLBTs (my bet) or an anomaly.

[NathanATX]

Certainly.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

[otseng]

Interesting. What denomination are you in, otseng? Because if you are active in a moderate or more liberal denomination, then this is either a sad reflection on the hold the closet has on us GLBTs (my bet) or an anomaly.
I've been a member of a charismatic church (non-denominational) for 5 years. A PCUSA church for 5 years. And an Evangelical Free church for 5 years. I have had associations with others such as Baptists, Methodists, and non-denominational as well. I can only remember one instance in all the years in church where a teenage (non-Christian) visitor came and said she was bisexual. And the only reason she came was we were hosting a youth debate on homosexuality and she was invited as a guest debater.

[NathanATX]

I've been a member of a charismatic church (non-denominational) for 5 years. A PCUSA church for 5 years. And an Evangelical Free church for 5 years. I have had associations with others such as Baptists, Methodists, and non-denominational as well. I can only remember one instance in all the years in church where a teenage (non-Christian) visitor came and said she was bisexual. And the only reason she came was we were hosting a youth debate on homosexuality and she was invited as a guest debater.

I spent about 15 years in a charismatich church... and while I suspected some other people of being gay, the only time I knew for sure there were gay people at church was when I "accidentally" stumbled upon an "exgay" support group that was meeting there.

I think most gay people have a clear sense of how safe their church is.

The very last time I questioned God about my sexuality, I drove to a city that was two hours away and found a little black pentecostal church that was having a Sunday evening service. I was absolutely sure no one there would know who I was. I told the female pastor that I thought I was gay and she had all the young men come up and pray for me. :) I was quickly surrounded by about 10 very good looking black men who, like pentecostals do, were "laying hands" on me (kinda forcefully) and praying for my deliverance. :)

So there I was, a white country boy in his dusty wranglers and boots, surround by beautiful black men praying for me, trying to make me fall down. I closed my eyes and instantly had this picture of Jesus & God laughing and cracking up at how silly the whole situation was. Then I just remember the love that was radiating from Jesus' eyes and I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that He loved me just as He made me. I left that church feeling more happy and peaceful than I had in years. It was amazing.

Long story short. Gay people are everywhere. What are you doing to let them know they can safely be who they are around you?

[Dash]

Another reason is that homosexuals are organized as a group and have agendas. So, it becomes easier for someone to attack. There aren't groups of murderers or pornographers trying to lobby for legislation. If there were, murder and pornopraphy would probably be on the hit list of Christians too.

I think it should blow out the walls of anti-gay Christian minds to realize that there actually IS an organized resistance. No...there are no other groups as you describe. Why not?

But the better question is "Why is their such a gathered, organized resistance among gay and lesbian people?"

The fact that there is such a gathering against the forces of hate, says something about the nature of the struggle. It says something about the spirit of the oppressed. It speaks to a new and deep cultural understanding that cries out for change. We are even joined in our resistance by many who are not gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender. That fact also should strike awe into the hearts of our oppressors, for we are not criminals who find no support for criminal behavior. We are the gentle, loving, true-hearted daughters and sons of every family. We are friends and heros to many and famous in the eyes of those who know us. They are proud to march alongside of those they honor. Even now we stand in the halls of the great and the righteous. We take our places among the humble and suffering saints as well as the glorious shining stars that illuminate all of heaven.

For we are God's Children, and our illustrious heritage cannot be diminished by our adversaries.

We are known and hated for our love...and for no other reason. Had they themselves known Love, they would not have hated us, for they would have recognized the same Spirit that moved in them.

[Daniel]

Church members would be surprised at just who is homosexual. Turn your gaydar up a notch, otseng.


I really hope you understand why this is highly offensive, otseng. The struggle of a same-gender couple who have been together 30+ years, when they lobby for the 1000+ rights an opposite sex couple can get for a mere $35 and then you comparing that to "groups of murderers or pornographers."

Update: I just read your new post. I remain skeptical, but carry on.

My husband and I (wed in Canada last summer) have been together 15 years this summer and counting. And guess what? One of us goes into the hospital, what do we have to do? Remember to find that power of attorney, that's what. Is that what we should be thinking after an accident? I rather think not. Without it, we have less rights than our relatives, who could swoop in and make all the decisions. Hello! Woe to the vacationer if they forget to take it along. And traveling in a foreign country? All bets are off. Taking care of each other is not for those without stamina and courage. Those 1000+ plus rights count for something. And our relationship is no less worthy of them. I really wish I could take being married for granted like everyone else. ;)

I've been a member of a charismatic church (non-denominational) for 5 years. A PCUSA church for 5 years. And an Evangelical Free church for 5 years. I have had associations with others such as Baptists, Methodists, and non-denominational as well. I can only remember one instance in all the years in church where a teenage (non-Christian) visitor came and said she was bisexual. And the only reason she came was we were hosting a youth debate on homosexuality and she was invited as a guest debater.

osteng- How was our young lesbian received? And what was the upshot of the debate? What did you conclude from it?

[otseng]

I was quickly surrounded by about 10 very good looking black men who, like pentecostals do, were "laying hands" on me (kinda forcefully) and praying for my deliverance. :)
That's actually pretty funny. :lol:

I can imagine it'd be the same as if 10 good looking woman surrounded me and layed their hands on me to pray for me. :D

What are you doing to let them know they can safely be who they are around you?
Good question. I think I'll start a thread on that later.

[BruceChris]

I seem to have gotten in a little late on this thread


Perhaps. But, I've not come across any who have professed to be gay in my involvement in churches for over 15 years. So, they are off my radar.

First of all, in Minneapolis, gay people are very visable, in church and most other places in town. See below for am example

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1151

I suspect that there are almost as many, perhaps just as many in Atlanta. For obvious reasons, they choose to be less visible.

Peace and Love, bruce Chris

[otseng]

osteng- How was our young lesbian received? And what was the upshot of the debate? What did you conclude from it?
We were debating if there should be a constitutional amendment to define marriage. I believe she was received well by the youth group. She was quite vocal and her side just let her do all the talking. And she was quite passionate in her views. Though we couldn't stick to the actual debate topic, we had some good discussions on homosexuality.

The problem that we had was not with the youth, but with the parents. We had some adults "question" what we were doing. But, I think the church should have more discussions like this. If we can't even talk about issues like this, how will they ever be resolved? If we can't have open communications, then the walls will never be scaled.

Yes, it's quite risky to lower the walls. It's even risky for me to come here to this forum to "discuss". But, there's no chance of change without taking risks.

[otseng]

I suspect that there are almost as many, perhaps just as many in Atlanta. For obvious reasons, they choose to be less visible.

I had always thought Atlanta had a large gay population, esp in the Midtown area. But, since I live in the suburbs, the gay population could be less. Hence, I've never encountered any in church.

[suzer1013]

I had always thought Atlanta had a large gay population, esp in the Midtown area. But, since I live in the suburbs, the gay population could be less. Hence, I've never encountered any in church.

Hi Otseng. I live in Marietta, work in Atlanta, and have gone to church in Atlanta for years now. I would suspect that, because of the more conservative churches you have attended, that anyone there who was gay was so closeted that you might not recognize any gays or lesbians in the crowd. GLBT people are everywhere -- yes, even the suburbs and in rural Georgia, too. When people are forced to hide who they are, however, it may not be as easy to notice them at first glance. Besides, even being able to "see" who is GLBT is risky, as our recognition of who is and who isn't is based on stereotypes that not everyone fits.

I would bet that you have encountered gay people in church and not even known it. And I'm sure you encounter GBLT people every day in the Atlanta area without even knowing it. I know I meet people all the time who are GLBT -- even at places like the bookstore or PetSmart, and not just in the metro area, but outside of Atlanta as well. Believe me, all the gay men do not live in midtown, and all the lesbians do not live in Decatur (contrary to popular belief!;) )Usually, because I am with my partner and we are pretty open about our relationship (except when it might be dangerous to do so), other GLBT folks readily acknowledge us as "family." That might not happen as much with a straight man who comes in with his wife and/or kids. And that's not meant to be rude, it's just self-protection on the part of GLBT people.

If you want to see churches with a good mix of GLBT and and hetero people, I can suggest a few places for you to visit in Atlanta. Wonderful churches and wonderful people. But I wouldn't expect anyone who is GLBT in a charismatic church, for example, to be open with anyone about their sexual orientation, because they would fear being shunned or condemned by their church family.

Susan

[keltic63]

This is similar to what I have in mind.

Homosexuality is a target because it is a highly contentious area and gets lots of press. It is easy to whip up the emotions from participants on both sides of this issue. If two people are calmly debating a point, it's not going to draw a crowd. But if two people are fist fighting, then people will start gathering to see what is going on. Then reporters will come and tell even more people to come watch. The highly emotional charge will also cause people to take sides and not remain nuetral.

It is also a target because there are relatively few homosexuals in churches. So, it's easy to attack without offending one's own congregation. If divorce and pornography were attacked, then it'd hit too close to home.

we've been asking why divorce isn't attacked as vehemently as homosexuality; usually they trot out the "grace" argument. But I think it tends to be the "profit" argument in reality.


Another reason is that homosexuals are organized as a group and have agendas. So, it becomes easier for someone to attack.

I have yet to see a really well-organized group that represents all of the glbt community.

There aren't groups of murderers or pornographers trying to lobby for legislation. If there were, murder and pornopraphy would probably be on the hit list of Christians too.

careful here, you're classifying homosexuals as equal to murderers and pornographers. I'm not sure that's what you want to do.

[keltic63]

I guess I should have read through all the new posts before responding....

carry on.

[tdogg]

Otseng, I can assure you being raised AG and knowing the others, even just here on the forums with AG backgrounds - gays and lesbians are well represented in charismatic churches. I agree with others here, they are well closeted as a means of self-preservation. I certainly was, the vast majority of my life.

Changes can be made, it does take open discussion, courage, compassion and understanding by all parties. Read, research, dialogue, debate, and first and foremost - do it all in LOVE. Dash said it best:

We are known and hated for our love...and for no other reason. Had they themselves known Love, they would not have hated us, for they would have recognized the same Spirit that moved in them.

Love is the key, without it there can be no real courage, compassion or understanding, much less open discussion.

[tdogg]

Wow, dash, this should be included in the Favorite Quotes thread! :cowboy:

[Zerbie]

Astoundingly wonderful thread, y'all.

What Dash said. Everyone scroll back and read his post again. :agree: :tup: :rainbow:

What Dash describes is a marvelous illustration of what has kept me away from churches my entire life. As a small child, I picked up on "Christianity" hating people for loving one another, and thought, Well, let me steer well clear of THAT stuff. I would never want to be like that, myself. I'd rather people hate me too, than be among those who hate a loving couple for loving one another.

[keltic63]

I'd rather people hate me too, than be among those who hate a loving couple for loving one another.

this reminded me of a sign I have on my refrigerator: It's better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

I read it everyday and I am reminded to live honestly.

[Dash]

I would never want to be like that, myself. I'd rather people hate me too, than be among those who hate a loving couple for loving one another.

Yes, yes! I learned it from Plato, I think...that those who suffer are less wounded than those who cause the harm.

[Daniel]

The problem that we had was not with the youth, but with the parents. We had some adults "question" what we were doing. But, I think the church should have more discussions like this. If we can't even talk about issues like this, how will they ever be resolved? If we can't have open communications, then the walls will never be scaled.

Yes, it's quite risky to lower the walls. It's even risky for me to come here to this forum to "discuss". But, there's no chance of change without taking risks.

I agree with you. And that is the whole point of this forum- to discuss these matters openly. Taking risks is par for the course.

Nathan mentioned his history as part of a charismatic church- and I have my own story with the AG church. I observed a curious thing about charismatics: it seemed to me that there was great respect for the gifts of the spirit as evidenced through women of the congregation, but there was a line which they dare not cross- as if doing so they would encroach on the territory of men- they got the last word. This seemed to me to be an unequal state of affairs, and I imagine that this dynamic has not changed in the slightest. In such an atmosphere, independent inquiry is the ultimate risk. Perhaps this is what you allude to?

[Daniel]

We are known and hated for our love...and for no other reason. Had they themselves known Love, they would not have hated us, for they would have recognized the same Spirit that moved in them.

Dash- this is brilliant as Zerbie rightly notes! Reminds me (my lateral brain at work) of the observation by the Dalai Lama who remarked that, even thought it may seem that the world is full of hate and evil, people are actually surrounded by love. It is our very nature and everyday concern- and all too easy to take for granted like the fish that swims in water.

[Blossom]

Nathan mentioned his history as part of a charismatic church- and I have my own story with the AG church. I observed a curious thing about charismatics: it seemed to me that there was great respect for the gifts of the spirit as evidenced through women of the congregation, but there was a line which they dare not cross- as if doing so they would encroach on the territory of men- they got the last word. This seemed to me to be an unequal state of affairs, and I imagine that this dynamic has not changed in the slightest. In such an atmosphere, independent inquiry is the ultimate risk. Perhaps this is what you allude to?


I grew up in the charismatic church and saw the same thing. There was liberty...within limits. I think it may have been even more extreme in the AG. Of course, there were/are countless independent charismatic churches, so it would be hard to track how most of them treat women. There were a few absolutely outstanding women, like Maria B. Woodworth-Etter, Aimee Semple McPherson, and Katherine Kuhlmann who somehow managed to have great influence (although they were hugely controversial figures). Now, if you watch charismatic television, you will see some women teachers and a number of female co-pastors (with their husbands). I have noticed that co-pastor usually goes with the wife's name, but not with the husband's. But I do think things are changing, even if somewhat slowly. Seeing women as co-pastor is a step. And I know there are some charismatic leaders who are more open to female leadership.

As far as Daniel's mention of the man getting the last word--I closely knew an amazing female pastor who worked really hard to make it look as if her husband was the spiritual leader of the house. Of course, it was she who woke up in the early morning hours to pray, and she who preached powerfully, and she who had a passion for evangelism and a great love for people.

[Jennifer5]

Wow, I ignored this thread for like a day and next thing I know it shows three pages... and three pages filled with amazing answers...

Back to the main topic..
Why is homosexuality attacked so much by Christians?
Easy taget.. questionable from a biblical point of view, questionable from a scientific point of view... but I'm not sure if that's what you're wanting for an anwser.

I agree that it is a big part of just being the 'next thing on the list' for all these fear based religions... I also agree that it will pass in time, but mean while... how far will it go before it's over? that's what we need to be careful of. People become violent if we're not careful, and we need to help bring it to an end even before it would normally, because who knows how many people will be hurt by it in the meantime.

Otseng are you looking for more of an answer like what you would say to someone who has no idea... who is just completely confused? Or are these the kind of answers you're looking for?
I would like to hear more of what YOU have to say on this topic.

*this is ending up to be a very interesting thread, thanks otseng

[BruceChris]

What Zerbie said: "What Dash said" I love it. --BC

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?p=11622#post11622

[marutidas]

[Blossom/QUOTE]
There is no room for worship of science, human ability, or philosophy in Christianity. Only God through Jesus Christ is worshiped. But science, human ability and philosophy are all gifts from God that we can use for God's glory.


If it pleases the forum, I shall like to play the part of the athiest for a moment. Before I begin I would like to just say that my following comment is just to invoke some perspective and remember that Athiests have rights too. I will never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be. MLKjr.
It is a fact that our primitive ancestors used legend to explane the natural world, that this could not have formed naturally. The feel of the unknown, is that what God represents?
Something we can not explain as God watching over us or Gods will.
Why do we need religion? Is it merely that humanity, cannot handle the grim reality that awaits all human flesh, Feeling terrified that they will end.
Is it the fear of a transient existance that drives the clergy, feel that they have to save the souls of everyone, no matter the cost? But what If there is nothing at the end, no grand reward, no next incarnation? Just the blackness of oblivion.
This is a scary thought, Religion instills hope. But does faith merely allow us to do something that we can do but our mind is clouded by fear, and our belief give us courage, because we belive that someone has our back?
And thus ends my performance.

I am truely not being confritational, I just want people here to think about their faith carefully. It is their feeling that they(Fundi's) are superior to everyone else because they belong to that religion.

I leave with another favorite quote of mine
"Religion is for people afraid to go to Hell,
Spirituality is for people who have already been there".

People who follow someone blindly, usally trip and fall flat on their face.

[Blossom]

[QUOTE=marutidas;11704]
I leave with another favorite quote of mine
"Religion is for people afraid to go to Hell,
Spirituality is for people who have already been there".
QUOTE]


Religion has done and continues to do much damage. Christianity has done harm, although I submit that what has done harm was not true Christianity. However, history also shows many examples in which religion, and specifically, Christianity has done great good. Since the Bible is filled with commands to love neighbor, feed the hungry, visit the prisoner, care for the widow...there have been quite a few Christians who actually obeyed!

We continue to see Christian groups who take medical help and food to people groups living in poverty and disease. Christians are often the first to advance into regions where no one else will go. John Wesley, the founder of my denomination, was one of the biggest givers you could find. At the beginning of his ministry, he chose how much he would live on and how much he would give away. He continued to live on the same small amount throughout his life and gave more and more away. He taught the early Methodists to "earn all you can, save all you can, and give all you can". Of course, many Methodists focused primarily on the first part! Wesley was even concerned with making books affordable and readily available for the poor. In education, founding of hospitals, and countless compassionate ministries, Christians have made a positive difference in the world.

Oh, and your last comment reminds me of a Methodist minister who compared Methodists with Baptists...he said, "they scare them out of hell, we love them into heaven."

[Blossom]

Edit!
Just have to edit this last part a bit--there is no room for worship of science, human ability, or philosophy in Christianity. Only God through Jesus Christ is worshiped. But science, human ability and philosophy are all gifts from God that we can use for God's glory.


I just realized that this portion of my post here may have been misunderstood. I was not telling Marutidas that he needed to edit his comments. I was making clear that the second part of my post was new (from editing). I wasn't happy with what I had said and was trying to clarify. It wasn't a point that many of you would have cared about, but I still wanted to correct it. I suppose using red for the word Edit made it seem quite rude. No rudeness intended. :good:

[BruceChris]

And I will miss you. Come back, now and then, when you can. I had been looking forward to dialogging with you a lot more.

Bruce Chris

[marutidas]

Thank you for clarifing, Blossom.
I do believe you, Faith can spur people to great things for humanity.

[scott snedeker]

I think it's barriers to loving. Barriers such as ignorance, self hatred, fear of being outed, fear of "gay rape," embarassment that they had hated and not loved and now can't ammend for it without losing face.

I am not a believer but I feel that belief in a loving accepting god can be an affirmation that replaces the affirmation that was missing during child and adolescent emotional development. Low self esteem usually comes from this lack of affirmation during childhood and adolescence This affirmation however can be misused by compensating for low self esteem with a gratification from a "holier than thou" strategy rather that connecting with your sense that your own worthiness is a given and not dependent on castigating others.

While not a believer I am a student of Abraham (Abraham-hicks.org) which is a discipline of thought focus (not the biblical reference). My Affirmation comes from the incredible potential of humanity and individual humans. Abraham's law of attraction states that like vibrations attract. Feel love and peace by focussing you thought and you will activate that part of the other human that feels love and peace also. Oppostiion activates that which you want to deactivate in the other.

Christ I believe was a genius of feeling and teaching universal love. He may have been the best connected human being to the human potential of love the world has known. I think this is why millions of people believe this connection was divine. It doesn't matter what the metaphyscs are. He is still the best example to follow.

[scott snedeker]

I think it's barriers to loving. Barriers such as ignorance, self hatred, fear of being outed, fear of "gay rape," embarassment that they had hated and not loved and now can't ammend for it without losing face.

I am not a believer but I feel that belief in a loving accepting god can be an affirmation that replaces the affirmation that was missing during child and adolescent emotional development. Low self esteem usually comes from this lack of affirmation during childhood and adolescence This affirmation however can be misused by compensating for low self esteem with a gratification from a "holier than thou" strategy rather that connecting with your sense that your own worthiness is a given and not dependent on castigating others.

While not a believer I am a student of Abraham (Abraham-hicks.org) which is a discipline of thought focus (not the biblical reference). My Affirmation comes from the incredible potential of humanity and individual humans. Abraham's law of attraction states that like vibrations attract. Feel love and peace by focussing you thought and you will activate that part of the other human that feels love and peace also. Oppostiion activates that which you want to deactivate in the other.

Christ I believe was a genius of feeling and teaching universal love. He may have been the best connected human being to the human potential of love the world has known. I think this is why millions of people believe this connection was divine. It doesn't matter what the metaphyscs are. He is still the best example to follow.

[Daniel]

An answer to the this thread title might be found in recent comments by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/27/ngay27.xml

The archbishop of Canterbury has told homosexuals that they need to change their behaviour if they are to be welcomed into the church, The Sunday Telegraph can reveal.

Rowan Williams has distanced himself from his one-time liberal support of gay relationships and stressed that the tradition and teaching of the Church has in no way been altered by the Anglican Communion's consecration of its first openly homosexual bishop.

The declaration by the archbishop - rebutting the idea that homosexuals should be included in the church unconditionally - marks a significant development in the church's crisis over homosexuals. According to liberal and homosexual campaigners, it confirmed their fears that the archbishop has become increasingly conservative - and sparked accusations that he has performed an "astonishing" U-turn over the homosexual issue.

The revelations came in a newspaper interview last week in which the archbishop denied that it was time for the church to accept homosexual relationships, suggesting that it should be welcoming rather than inclusive. "I don't believe inclusion is a value in itself. Welcome is. We don't say 'Come in and we ask no questions'. I do believe conversion means conversion of habits, behaviours, ideas, emotions," he told a Dutch journalist.

"Ethics is not a matter of a set of abstract rules, it is a matter of living the mind of Christ. That applies to sexual ethics."


With friends like this.......

[SolApollo]

In regards to the note about women given secondary status in charismatic churches, the same is true in many fundamentalist denominations too. For example, the fundamentalist church I grew up in allowed women to serve as deacons, but in no higher church hierarchial capacity. Women were not allowed to become ministers either. Likewise, they taught that wives were to be submissive to their husbands, except in cases of abuse.

Ironically, personally liberated from fundamentalist dogma from joining the UCC; the church as a female pastor, and equal to men in status. Although, the UCC is considered liberal and progressive, which is a very good thing.

Another thing that bothers me w/ fundamentalists: they are eager to convert children. I've seen many wives and their children worry because the husband/father wasn't "saved" and vice versa. Its crazy. Its like a doctrine of fear - that would make Machiavelli (sp?) proud...

Edited to Add:
This same church preached against homosexuality as if part of a rascist, hate rally. Being there in person, it most certainly felt like a hate rally, and I definitely felt hated (though closeted at the time).

Well, sorry for the rant...

Peace Out.

[Blossom]

Another thing that bothers me w/ fundamentalists: they are eager to convert children. I've seen many wives and their children worry because the husband/father wasn't "saved" and vice versa. Its crazy. Its like a doctrine of fear - that would make Machiavelli (sp?) proud...


I was encouraged at an early age to accept Jesus into my life (maybe at 4 or 5). I wasn't ready. It didn't make sense to me and I wasn't one to do something that I didn't believe in. I learned to read pretty early, though, and read a simple little Christian comic book about a family of bears that made sense to me. I knelt down and read a prayer and invited Jesus into my life. I didn't even bother to tell my parents, but they noticed the change without me telling them. I didn't accept Jesus out of fear. I was never afraid. I accepted because I believed.

If I didn't have Jesus in my life in those early years, I really don't know how I would have made it through certain aspects of life as well as I did. I am thankful that I was presented with the opportunity to accept Jesus, and that I wasn't pushed to do so before I was ready. And I am eternally greatful that I prayed that prayer so long ago.

Blossom

[NathanATX]

I embraced Christianity at a young age as well. I think that connection to the Divine has been a great blessing in my life.

So... yes, I think faith & spirituality can be wonderful for children.

But what about Fred Phelps and his clans' young children out at parades and funerals holding up signs that say "God Hates Fags?" What about the two teenage twin girls who have a white supremacist pop band and are essentially spewing the filth their parents taught them.

I think it's possible to teach children about faith and values in positive & healthy ways... but if the faith & values themselves are based in fear, hate or ignorance, then it's a recipe for disaster.

This raises some interesting questions, that's for sure. :)

[otseng]

Otseng are you looking for more of an answer like what you would say to someone who has no idea... who is just completely confused? Or are these the kind of answers you're looking for?
I would like to hear more of what YOU have to say on this topic.

For some reason, I haven't been getting the email notifications for this thread, so I thought this thread died out. Guess it didn't...

I'm not looking for any specific answers. But, I would say I'm curious. It's not everyday that I can ask GLBTs this question.

I'm not sure if there's more that I could say on this subject. I've given my perspective (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=11603&postcount=20) already on the question. But, there are many other related things I'd like to ask which I'll start up later.

[Beth K. Eyres]

First, Dash, wonderful post earlier. Thank you.

I grew up in a charasmatic/fundamentalist church. Most of the people in general who came through the doors were like walking wounded. I think a few people brought up hierarchies within churches. Well, I noticed one while I was attending this church: the more "perfect" someone seemed, the higher up they jetted in a kind of I-am-closer-to-God-than-you-are kind of hierarchy. My family was intact, employed, educated. We became the example to follow for the rest of the flock.

Have things changed all that much? How does one become more spiritually superior than others? Pointing out "sin" in others? The old pecking order?

Osteng questioned why adultery or divorce or not as "attacked" as homosexuality. I think as humans we are more likely to forgive if we have gone through something similar. Christians have experienced divorce, they have experienced adultery. Yes, some Christians are glbt. But I would imagine it's a much smaller number than have experienced divorce. In some ways it seems about empathy and compassion and, as Dash so eloquently pointed out, recognizing love when one sees it.

Not sure if this gets anywhere new, and it wasn't too quick. I hope that it gives you, Osteng, some more insight.

My question for you is why isn't the church attacking immorality like poverty and ALL of its issues like education and health care? If a church is going to "attack," it seems it should attack something other than people.

[BruceChris]

As I read it. And that brings up something that I heard once, about Billy Graham's wife. As opposed to those who say that they were * Kaboom * born again, she has said that she cannot really tell you exactly when she became a Christian. I think I'm pretty much on that road myself.