Is it possible not to have a gender?

[Mia14]

I recently took part in a discussion over whether or not it is possible not to have a gender. Lots of things were covered, including transgendered individuals and people who refuse to identify with one or the other and things along those lines...

What do you think? Is it possible not to have a gender?

[BruceChris]

This gets us down to the question of what exactly is a gender? Legally, everyone HAS to be male or female, if only on your birth certificate, or drivers license. (If they lock you up, they have to know which cell block to throw you into, after all) A trans person I know who is a retired educator tells me that there are, so far, 37 known varieties of sex chromosomes, only two of which are XX or XY.

I am assuming that everyone here knows that for the first few weeks of life, ALL babies have a basically female body, that only differentiates with time.

To be fully sexually differentiated, a person/woman, such as yourself, would have to have XX chromosomes, be fertile, identify as female, and be primarily attracted to males. Or vice versa, for males. This could leave out almost half of us, when you think about it. The two main intersex organizations in this country, Bodies Like ours, and the Intersex Society of North America, both seem to point out that in really borderline cases, there is no absolute yes or no criteria for gender. I have a webpage for you, that addresses that question a bit pointedly (and maybe just a little bit rudely) in the context of same sex marriage, and pretty much makes the point that there IS no such thing as absolute gender, at least for those of us who do not necessarily meet the above criteria.

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/content/view/214/103/ -- (Dead Link)

How many of you remember the charactor on Saturday Night Live, from some years back, named "Pat", who had a significant other named "Chris". Everyone at his/her workplace was forever trying to figure out Pat's gender, and asking him/her leading questions to try to bring that information out. And Pat would forever answer, in all innocence, supposedly never ever guessing that he/she was driving everyone in the workplacen totally nuts.

In Minnesota some years back, I met an intersex person who had had sex (re?)assignment surgery performed, paid for by the state, because she had ambiguous anatomy AND ambiguous sex chromosomes, and the courts ruled that this person had a legal right to have the state pay, because this was clearly not a matter of choice, of any kind. If you're a trans person with normal chromosomes, you're on your own.

I hope that that is of some help, Mia. Hey, I had my middle name changed to Chris, not Christopher or Christine, some years back. I like to express my fem side, now and then. (Hey, just what name do you really think that I have my National Organization for Women membership in, after all?)

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Daniel]

What a fascinating question Mia!

I guess one's 'answer' depends on which area one looks at the matter and to what one identifies: physical, physchological, emotional, spiritual issues.

From the physical point of you one might say that we all start out as female- men get their chromosome late in the day. So, from that aspect, you might say everyone is female in some respect. (Interestingly, my husband's mentor- a gay man- had the remnants of ovaries- found during an operation)

One might make the case that hermaphrodites don't have a specific gender per se. A both and scenario going on there.

Those who see everything in 'spiritual' terms might be prone to say that there is no gender in heaven: No gender among angels etc etc. The joining or absence of duality makes for what? Oneness?

Are gay and transgendered folk in some way mirroring that which is beyond duality perhaps? I do not 'know'. But it's interesting to think about.

[BruceChris]

In the intersex community, the word hermaphrodite has about the same effect as the word "lifestyle" has around here. Very un-politically correct, and/or people get angry. The word is intersex.

P&L, BC

[Daniel]

In the intersex community, the word hermaphrodite has about the same effect as the word "lifestyle" has around here. Very un-politically correct, and/or people get very angry. The word is intersex.

P&L, BC

Thanks much. No offense was intended on my part. And I do see why the use of hermaphrodite would be offensive.

In much the same way, I find the word homosexual to be offensive in many contexts. Both words are overly clincial and do not account for the persons they refer to. (On that note, I find it interesting that younger GLBT persons have adopted the once negative term 'queer'. It's not a word I can find a use for much except in a literary sense- but that's me.)

My apologies.

Now. Please update me. Can you speak to what brought about the change in terminology?

[BruceChris]

Visit the websites, maybe send them an email.

Thought: The word hermaphrodite in some ways implies that a person has complete male and female reproductive abilities, something which has never actually happened. It certainly implies some kind of a freak. The word intersex I assume is a way of reclaiming a certain respectability. -- Email 'em.

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/

http://www.isna.org/

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Vanessa White]

Gender is fascinating to me, in respect to discussing it as to what it actually is. I actually do discuss gender when conducting training on sexual orientation. In many ways, gender in so socially ingrained in all of us, as to what it is supposed to be, "Girls should do _______, and boys should_____" kinda stuff. Gender is about anatomy, but also about how that anatomy gets defined by society, and by our own selves. I feel so confident and sure of and downright excited about being a woman, in terms of my anatomy, how I define myself, and I really don't know if that is based on how I was socialized, meaning, I do comply with many stereotypical woman type clothing, behaviors, etc. So, is it is that I love being a woman based on all of the parts of womanhood that I have embraced due to societal expectations and teachings? Or, do I love being a woman in spite of those teachings? I mean, strong, powerful, self-loving women are not always the norm societally, often because of how often we have been beaten down, literally and figuratively, into submission. I think having a lesbian identity has assisted me in embracing my own woman gender more strongly and confidently, and lovingly. We as women are such beautiful, amazing creatures, and by loving my self as fully as I can, I think I can have that more appreciation of the beauty of other women. Am I rambling yet?!?!?!

[Zerbie]

Whoo-eee! Mia, you start some of the best threads! :D

Great question!

To reduce things down to talk-able stuff, I like to say "sex" to refer to physical/anatomical stuff, and "gender" for the internal/mental/representation/performative stuff. (I also like the word "stuff" :rolleyes: :p )

So gender being an internal state of identification (or the condition of others perceiving you "as" femme, or butch, or whatever they please to call what they perceive you) is subject to flux. I think it's possible to state a case for "no gender" - or to state a case that perception of gender "suspends" with internal state or perceptive state. The trans person or the gender queer might be the best spokesperson for such a case as this.

In addition to the physical/anatomical phenomenon of the intersexed (hermaphrodite phased out of usage about 15 years ago to the best of my understanding, when "intersexed" began to be used ), and the transgender, consider also the case of full-blown dissociative identity in which certain alters are of the sex opposite to the physical body. Those alter states are real and valid, but they contradict the body's physical gender.

For an interesting read, see if you can find the (now old) essay by Anne Fausto-Sterling. I think it was called, "The Five Sexes: Why Male and Female is not enough." But don't hold me to that, it's been YEARS since I've looked at it and I might be remembering wrong.

[keltic63]

Thanks much. No offense was intended on my part. And I do see why the use of hermaphrodite would be offensive.

In much the same way, I find the word homosexual to be offensive in many contexts. Both words are overly clincial and do not account for the persons they refer to. (On that note, I find it interesting that younger GLBT persons have adopted the once negative term 'queer'. It's not a word I can find a use for much except in a literary sense- but that's me.)

My apologies.

Now. Please update me. Can you speak to what brought about the change in terminology?


Just as an aside to this thread; I can remember riding the bus in Pittsburgh when I was in college back in the 80's. There were 2 African-American women talking to each other and discussing the current terms to describe their race. It was funny. They were saying "who decided to call us black?" "I'm not black, I'm colored!" It seems it's just as hard to give up the names we claim and become comfortable with.

I have a hard time with "queer" too. But in some ways, I can see the value of it in the sense of reclaiming something that was negative. I could see myself using it in a situation where I wanted to create some shock value.

[Vanessa White]

I know the thread topic is gender, but I also would like to comment on the use of the word "queer". Yes, I also agree that is gives a certain shock value in the use of it. I also find myself inclined to use it much in the way that the pink triangle came to be used by ACT UP in regard to AIDS activism, using the tool used against us in the past, as a way to take our power back. I use queer only in reference to myself, depending on the situation and the people I am with, but I do at times use it. On the other hand, I am really uncomfortable with the word "dyke"- just don't like the sound of it or what it seems to imply or assume in my mind, but I know some lesbian women who use it quite comfortably in reference to themselves or other lesbians.

[Zerbie]

I like the word queer. Best of all for myself. But hey - what else better describes my sexual "identity," such as it ISN'T!?!? Straight, nope. Lesbian, nope. Bisexual? Yeah I guess but it sounds like an amphibian. So I'll take queer. I like it's non-specificity. Sometimes I use it to refer to entire groups of non-straight people, so I prob'ly have to watch to make sure I don't go labelling all my gay friends "queer" since some really wouldn't like being called that.

I have never liked the word dyke for lesbians. I always picture a giant levee holding back water, it just doesn't sound like a word for people. :lol:

[Vanessa White]

Here in Northeastern PA, dykes as a way to hold back a body of water is a common term, always takes me a back a little when someone refers to a problem with a dyke. Yikes!:lol:

[tdogg]

Using names - labels - that others use to portray negativity - in a positive way is a way to gain back the power so to speak. To take a negative connotation and identify positively.

I pretty much talk about myself as "lesbian" or even "gay" - but don't take any offense to someone else using other words, as long as it's done in a positive way. I think the more we accept and value ourselves, the less being identified will hurt and offend.

Now, just let someone use a less than desirable name or label on someone I care deeply about and .....! :D

Wow, this is a very interesting topic Mia!! I agree with the scientific aspects of it, but I think the important thing for individuals is how they actually identify themselves (non-identify could be a form of identifying onesself).

Gotta go back to work!! ;)

[Vanessa White]

I get that- I mean, actively choosing not to choose a specific gender is a choice, so it is possible to not have a gender, or be labelled with a gender. Persons who are actively, purposely androgynous in order to avoid the labelling are also those who often don't want to choose one gender or the other, they like to live in a more fluid sense, for whatever their reasons are. Raising a child is quite interesting in the aspects of gender role- what girls and boys are supposed to do and wear. My daughter loves wearing dresses as much as she loves to get as dirty as she can, and rough and tumble with the boys. She blends it all together, but seems to enjoy being a girl. We have never taught her that she has to define being a girl in any certain, specific way, so she is free to express herself in a comfortable way.

[Mia14]

I like the label mini-thread that is starting, so let's give it a proper place to shine. :) (See new thread in the GLBT issues section)


I don't think gender is definite or measureable. I'm happy to be in my own skin and generally identify as a woman, but sometimes I like to "gender bend" a little and there are definitely times that I think, if society was more accepting, I'd like to be more masculine. I don't know where that fits into this whole gender scene and I don't know if it's just me finding a way to identify myself with the more "butch" lesbians. I don't think I'd be a true 6 if Kinsey had a male/female scale like his sexuality scale. Anyway, this confusion makes me think there have to be more than just male and female gender identities.

Maybe gender and sexuality are BOTH fluid, sometimes changing, and open to interpretation...

[BruceChris]

Sometimes, I can just go out and do guy things. Or, I can go to church and hang out, and just be one of the girls, and it feels like an important part of who I am. Is that anything like what you had in mind?

Edit: Feminism 101: Back in my rowdy youth, I used to ride with a motorcycle bunch, about twice a week in the summer. One of our members was Gretchen. (Gretchen: Why do you always bring a 4 man tent? "So I can get 4 men in it, dummy!") One Saturday, we were heading across Wisconsin, and Gretchen had her BoyToy du gure (sp??) packed on the back. A farm couple in a pickup pulled up next to us, at a stoplight, and the woman said, "Oh isn't that nice, he's letting her ride his motorcycle" -- ROF,LMFAO!

P&L, Bruce and/or Chris

[Mia14]

Sometimes, I can just go out and do guy things. Or, I can go to church and hang out, and just be one of the girls, and it feels like an important part of who I am. Is that anything like what you had in mind?

P&L, Bruce and/or Chris

Bi-gendered, yes! That's something along the lines of what I was thinking. I think that's a part of my life I have to dedicate some time to figuring out one of these days...

[Zerbie]

Sometimes, I can just go out and do guy things. Or, I can go to church and hang out, and just be one of the girls, and it feels like an important part of who I am. Is that anything like what you had in mind?

P&L, Bruce and/or Chris

That's a new term for me. I like it.

[BruceChris]

I would like to see the use of the term GenderVariant, or SexuallyVariant, but everybody seems to have their own preferred version of LGBTQAIetc.etc.YADAYADAYADA. Well hey, I'm not one to want to catch hell for trying to be the language police.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Dash]

Among some species of animals, gender really is fluid. They may switch back and forth between male and female, depending on the male/female population spread.

In her book, Evolution's Rainbow, Joan Roughgarden identifies these kind of variances from what humans consider "normal" gender expression. There can be up to five distinct genders in other species, with indiviuals "morphing" between these types. For example, in a particular species of fish, there are three very different male genders, and two different females (if I remember correctly...hahaha...being lazy and not gonna crack the book at the moment). The different males come in completely different sizes, coloring, and sexual behaviors. One is very small compared to two others. One mimics female behavior and only mates in "threesome" situations with another large agressive male and a female (literally between the two as they copulate).

I believe that there really is no "male" and "female" in the human essence, except that which we adopt or which is imposed upon us for this brief journey. I look at these things as concepts...metaphors...lessons that teach us something important. I would like to balance both male and female within me, if it were possible. For those who find themselves outside the average gender experience, I wish them strength and confidence in a world that is rarely accepting. I hope that I will always share with them my admiration, acceptance, and attentiveness to the wisdom that they bring to my world.

[zimnah]

I like that one. I enjoy being feminine most of the time now, but it wasn't so long ago that I preferred to change my own brake pads on my car.
I may have been technically born a girl, but i was raised by a US Marine, and I joined the Army at 17, wanting to prove myself in combat, so I went airborne. I swaggered around with the rest of the guys...except I never could teach myself to belch loudly. Ah, well.
I still have a few moments here and there where I swagger around the house and subtly challenge my husband's masculinity (thank G-d he's pretty secure, or our marriage would be a mess). He's a very sensitive and emotional guy, and I can get pretty emotionally butch when I want to. As for gender roles, we blur the lines a lot between us. Perhaps that is why I feel comfortable with him, and why he doesn't mind so much that we have pretty much the same taste in women. It makes for interesting conversations in the mall :D
I like bi-gendered. For some reason, it sounds much less ambiguous than bisexual, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why.
--Dawn :love:

[BruceChris]

Not sexual Orientation.

P&L, Bruce Chris

[zimnah]

This would be true. :agree: Thanks!
--Dawn :love:

[SolApollo]

Contrary to popular belief, gender is not easily defined as absolute male and absolute female. It could be said that rather than the dualistic male/female model, gender could be defined as being of three to five forms: male, female, gay male / lesbian female / bisexual, transgendered, and intersex individuals.

National Geographic had an interesting program on this issue: The Third Gender, and HBO produced a documentary called MiddleSex: Redefining Gender. Both are great films.

Similarly, I would recommend anthropological gender studies in book and other media forms. Culture and biology are both important factors in the interpretation of gender role and identity.

[Mia14]

I think my favorite way to dress and to present myself is androgenously. I like dressing so that it's harder for people I don't know to tell if I'm male or female. I like my short hair and want to get more muscular to blur the lines that much more. I'm happy with being a woman physically, but I think my LIFESTYLE choice, what I wear, might be different.

[BruceChris]

I just now posted this over on General Chat, under favorite quotes, but now that I think about it, it should probably go here. Anyway, it's short.

From a number of feminists that I have met: "I find myself hetrosexual below the neck, but lesbian from the neck up".

Peace and Love, Chris

[Daniel]

A comprehensive article in the NYTimes which deals with intersex matters. I came away agreeing with the subject of the article, who advises that intersex children should not be operated on despite their parent's discomfort. There is much to ponder here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/magazine/24intersexkids.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&adxnnl=0&adxnnlx=1159362229-1g5oTdadf5AR+7o/79ixhA


What if It’s (Sort of) a Boy and (Sort of) a Girl?

By ELIZABETH WEIL
Published: September 24, 2006
When Brian Sullivan — the baby who would before age 2 become Bonnie Sullivan and 36 years later become Cheryl Chase — was born in New Jersey on Aug. 14, 1956, doctors kept his mother, a Catholic housewife, sedated for three days until they could decide what to tell her. Sullivan was born with ambiguous genitals, or as Chase now describes them, with genitals that looked “like a little parkerhouse roll with a cleft in the middle and a little nubbin forward.” Sullivan lived as a boy for 18 months, until doctors at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in Manhattan performed exploratory surgery, found a uterus and ovotestes (gonads containing both ovarian and testicular tissue) and told the Sullivans they’d made a mistake: Brian, a true hermaphrodite in the medical terminology of the day, was actually a girl. Brian was renamed Bonnie, her “nubbin” (which was either a small penis or a large clitoris) was entirely removed and doctors counseled the family to throw away all pictures of Brian, move to a new town and get on with their lives. The Sullivans did that as best they could. They eventually relocated, had three more children and didn’t speak of the circumstances around their eldest child’s birth for many years. As Chase told me recently, “The doctors promised my parents if they did that” — shielded her from her medical history — “that I’d grow up normal, happy, heterosexual and give them grandchildren.”