Hello, new to the forum but followed Soulforce for a while

[midtnscott]

Hello,

I'm Scott and I grew up in an ultra conservative baptist home. Nothing occured without pastor's approval, even independent thinking; it's still that way with my mother.

The more I learn the more I'm convinced that the organized church has twisted the scripture to its own ends. After all, if you study in a seminary, you should be taught Greek, the original language of the new testament. If you studied the original Greek then you know that it doesn't translate well into English, modern or Elizabethan. If you know that you know the nuances that the Greek language represents and you know what that means. It means we've been deceived and lied to by so called bible scholars who have studied but deny us the same knowledge they have. What do they fear, loss of control?

Organized religion is pure evil. It is ignorant, intolerant, deceitful and it inspires radical fundamentalists who are ignorant of the most basic understanding of what is in the scriptures and don't bother to read and understand for themselves what is there. My own mother once told me that I needed to drop out of college because it was messing with my mind and get a real job in a factory. What an inspiring and supportive statement that was.

Can anyone out there tell me why things have become so twisted and un-Christian? I ordered Mel White's new book on Saturday and can't wait to read it. Now that I've vented I'll leave with one thought, "If the definition of Christian is to be Christ-like, by virtue of what right do people like that senile demon Pat Roberson and Lucifer Incarnate James Dobson, yes he's supposed to be a doctor but of what I've never heard, call themselves Christian? Anybody!

[Emproph]

You're preaching to the choir here Scott, we talk about that stuff all the time. I can totally identify with your anger, and there are many here who could identify with your ultra conservative upbringing.

I really like your point about how the original Greek language doesn't translate well into English --except when they want it to of course.

"Fear and loss of control" pretty much sums it up, or maybe Fear of loss of control.

A standard human fear for all of us, but couple that with the idea that you can't possibly be wrong, via the ONLY correct religion and an "inerrant" Bible, and anyone who disagrees with you, now also disagrees with God, leading to the idea and thus the practice of personal inerracy, and thus the ultimate idolatry, the substitution of God for one's own ego/pride, and the opposite of doing unto others as you would have done unto you.

Mel's book "Religion Gone Bad" deals with this, I'm in the process of reading it myself. I would also suggest John W. Dean's book "Conservatives Without Conscience." He deals with that authoritarian follower/leader mindset almost exclusively but more from the political standpoint, the religious theme though is endemic throughout. There are many parallels.

Now that I've vented I'll leave with one thought, "If the definition of Christian is to be Christ-like, by virtue of what right do people like that senile demon Pat Roberson and Lucifer Incarnate James Dobson, yes he's supposed to be a doctor but of what I've never heard, call themselves Christian? Anybody!

That's the problem. Being Christ-like is NOT their definition of being Christian. 'I'm better than you are' (ego/pride) in the name of being Christ-like is their definition of Christianity. But such a position isn't "Christ-like," and to admit such a thing, even to themselves, would cause their psychological universe to implode. Thus it is virtually impossible to EVEN-AGREE-TO-DISAGREE with them even on the nature of sin and/or Christianity, because they are unaware of even their own positions. -as in, whether sin is arbitrary because the Bible says so or whether sin is breaking the command to love others as yourself, -either/or applies, depending on what their leaders tell them.

The ability to compartmentalize is a necessary skill to accomplish this feat.

They've put themselves in a position where even the attempt to agree to disagree is perceived as an attack. They've decided that they are incapable of being wrong and will accept nothing less than TOTAL concession by anyone who disagrees.

Ok, now I'm ranting. I could go on and on, and believe me I have around here. Stick around, you'll definitely glean some insight if nothing else.

Hope to talk with you later,

-Patrick

[Lydia]

Welcome, Scott.

Wish I had good answers for you. I don't, but I do agree with many of your points.

[midtnscott]

Patrick and Lydia I agree with what you are saying. Believe me until I went into the military I was in church three times a week or more. Jimmy Carter made an excellent point in his last book "Our Endangered Values" that at no point in the bible is there an admonision against homosexuality where love is involved, only when it pertains to physical sex. And golly-gee, if my grasp of the English language hasn't slipped recently, the bible is FULL of perverted sexual acts and incest but do we hear anything about that-NOPE!

I'm continual amused at the hypocrisy of the fundamentalist, and I don't mean evangelicals-there is a difference I'll get to in a moment. On one hand its constantly hammered into our heads that God doesn't make mistakes and on the other we're referred to as "biological errors" ,thank you Laura Schlesinger. If we use the former logic then we are as God meant us to be and are not mistakes; but there lies the whole argument in a nut shell really and that is that the organized Church thinks that we made a "choice" to be as we are. If medical science could ever prove otherwise it would undermine the entire argument against us.

Now, as to the difference in fundamentalists and evangelicals. All fundamentalists are evangelical but not all evangelicals are fundamentalists. My own mother is a fundamentalist and I can spot them a mile away. It is strictly a "take no prisoners" mentality and belief in spreading Christianity through violence, kind of ironic considering Christ's message. Evangelicals are conservative but are more willing to listen and think-there it is! Fundies cannot think for themselves.

In closing let me say that I've heard the bible maligned and put down and every expletive used against it and I must whole heartedly disagree. I do not doubt the message in the scriptures, just man's interpretation of the message. So let's all go out and kill our brothers and sisters because we disagree with their viewpoint.

Thanks for listening.

[BruceChris]

It would seem that you and Patrick have pretty much summed up the situation of Christianity today. My own personal belief is that all good things come from love, and that all bad things come from fear. I believe that Christianity is a belief system based on Christs teachings of love, and that it has been horribly distorted by fear, and that the teaching of fear is used by many leaders to control their followers. This requires massive amounts of denial, and hypocracy, but these are the products of fear.

I believe that we all have belief systems based on both fear and love, and that spiritual growth is the process of learning to move from fear to love, in our beliefs. I call this liberal Christianity, and there are more and more liberal Christians, both gay and straight, raising up in the world to make themselves heard. (There are even liberal evangelicals, which is something that it took me a long time to wrap my head around. Guilt by association, I guess)

It is an article of faith that it (homosexuality) MUST be a choice, and that any evidence to the contrary is just another attack on religion, by science.

I wish you much exploration of the religious world, much learning, and many supportive friends. Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Vanessa White]

SO glad that you found your way to connect with us, even though you have been hanging around for awhile. It sounds like you have come to right place to talk your views and meet others that feel much the same way. Hope to see you around on the forums. Peace, Vanessa :love:

[Pablo Rafael]

Hi Scott,

I generally agree with what you say. In my opinion fundamentalism is the greatest threat to Christianity at the present. I'm glad you made the distinction between fundamentalists and evangelicals. Often times all Christians get lumped into the radical right-wing camp. Though the fundamentalists may be the most visible segment of the church at this point, I don't think they speak for the majority of us. I resent when people assume I agree with the legalistic stand of the fundamentalists because I am a Christian.

Also it needs to be kept in mind that organized religion is very diverse and can't be lumped together by one stereotype. There are many solid Bible-based denominations that aren't legalistic and close-minded. I'm a Catholic, and find the Catholic church quite non judgemental when it comes to people who have differing points of view. (I know the Catholic church isn't the most gay-friendly denomination, but that is more of an official stand and less of a practical application from my personal experience. The Catholic church is very slow to make an official change.) Many protestant churches are also quite open to differing points of view, the Episcopal and Lutheran (ELCA) for example. You mentioned that you grew up Baptist. I'm not very well aquainted with the Baptists, so I can't make a comment there.

Many of the mainline churches have been fairly silent to the fundamentalist threat. Hopefully they will begin to speak out and offer a real message of grace and forgiveness.

Pablo

[midtnscott]

For the most part, the Fundamentalists ARE the Baptists. I know who they are, how they think, how they strategise, and how they lie either directly or by omission. And yes, more churches need to start speaking up and saying, "Wait a minute, we're not with them." The fundamentalist movement represents a very small but extremely vocal, well-connected, wealthy group who punish anyone, anyone at all who doesn't agree exactly like they do - Protestant or Catholic if you're viewpoint is different you are the enemy PERIOD

I recognize the Catholic church's "official" position isn't the one individual churches subscribe to. It is why you as a Catholic, can get absolution and forgiveness instead of absolute condemnation hellfire and brimstone that awaits the baptists. While most states require all pastors to be ordained, the educational requirements vary widely. Even with that, the baptist seminary schools have to teach what the scripture actually says and present it in the historical context but that information rarely makes it to the flock. My question is why? I read Dr. Helminiak's What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality and was incredibly impressed by the scholarship and logic of his arguments. The Jesuits beat anyone hands down when it comes to educating their priests and it is very refreshing to know that you can still be a person of faith and utilize logic and reason things out for yourself without having some southern pastor tell what is written in a verse that I can read for myself.

The U.S. has long history of Puritan culture influencing everything from the time they arrived in the U.S. in the early 1600's to the present day. They are really the source of the fundie movement in this country. They have been around over 400 hundred years now in one form or the other and they do NOT like democracy. Thomas Jefferson greatest antagonists when he wrote the Declaration of Independence and was working on the Constituition and Bill of Rights, and as President were - you guessed it, the fundamentalists of his time. Until the the silent group of Christians stands up and distance themselves from the fundies, the majority of people will think they represent the voice of all Christians.

A lot of my ire is directed at the more accepting and loving churches who enable the fundamentalist movement by their very silence. Our outreach should be directed more at them to stand up for truth and rightousness and less at the fundies. The fundies won't change, forget trying to reason with them; a few might but not near enough to make a difference. WE need to put pressure on the others who are silence but know in their hearts what they should do.

Even with the damaging upbringing I had, I am fortunate that my teachers throughout k-12 and college taught me to read critically, think for myself and develop my own ideas. A lot of that I think comes from being exposed to a lot of the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers in Latin class. It really gives you a better sense of understanding when you have to translate their philosophies from Latin into English BEFORE you can go back and really read the content and understand it. As with so many other forms of discrimination, education is the key to help break it and minimize it in the future and we as gay activist try to target the hardline fundamentalists/un-christian coalition groups and that only plays into their hands. We need to rethink our strategies and use them where they'll do the most good - the silent Chritians.

[Pablo Rafael]

You make and excellent point, reminding those of us who are teachers that our job is to encourage students to think for themselves. Too often the tendency for teachers is to want to tell students what they should think and hope they follow.

I teach middle school and tell my students to disagree with me. Middle school is a great age to teach when students are starting to really form their own opinions and chart their own paths. In scripture study I feel it is critical to go to the Bible and find out what God's Word says; don't rely on others to tell you. None of us know everything or understand God completely.

Maybe those of us who are gay Christians have an advantage in this area because we have been outside the accepted norm and have learned that God works through many different people and in many different ways. My mom often says, "Don't put God in a box." Good advice for Christians everywhere.

Pablo

[Zerbie]

For the most part, the Fundamentalists ARE the Baptists. I know who they are, how they think, how they strategise, and how they lie either directly or by omission. And yes, more churches need to start speaking up and saying, "Wait a minute, we're not with them." The fundamentalist movement represents a very small but extremely vocal, well-connected, wealthy group who punish anyone, anyone at all who doesn't agree exactly like they do - Protestant or Catholic if you're viewpoint is different you are the enemy PERIOD

I recognize the Catholic church's "official" position isn't the one individual churches subscribe to. It is why you as a Catholic, can get absolution and forgiveness instead of absolute condemnation hellfire and brimstone that awaits the baptists. While most states require all pastors to be ordained, the educational requirements vary widely. Even with that, the baptist seminary schools have to teach what the scripture actually says and present it in the historical context but that information rarely makes it to the flock. My question is why? I read Dr. Helminiak's What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality and was incredibly impressed by the scholarship and logic of his arguments. The Jesuits beat anyone hands down when it comes to educating their priests and it is very refreshing to know that you can still be a person of faith and utilize logic and reason things out for yourself without having some southern pastor tell what is written in a verse that I can read for myself.

The U.S. has long history of Puritan culture influencing everything from the time they arrived in the U.S. in the early 1600's to the present day. They are really the source of the fundie movement in this country. They have been around over 400 hundred years now in one form or the other and they do NOT like democracy. Thomas Jefferson greatest antagonists when he wrote the Declaration of Independence and was working on the Constituition and Bill of Rights, and as President were - you guessed it, the fundamentalists of his time. Until the the silent group of Christians stands up and distance themselves from the fundies, the majority of people will think they represent the voice of all Christians.

A lot of my ire is directed at the more accepting and loving churches who enable the fundamentalist movement by their very silence. Our outreach should be directed more at them to stand up for truth and rightousness and less at the fundies. The fundies won't change, forget trying to reason with them; a few might but not near enough to make a difference. WE need to put pressure on the others who are silence but know in their hearts what they should do.

Even with the damaging upbringing I had, I am fortunate that my teachers throughout k-12 and college taught me to read critically, think for myself and develop my own ideas. A lot of that I think comes from being exposed to a lot of the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers in Latin class. It really gives you a better sense of understanding when you have to translate their philosophies from Latin into English BEFORE you can go back and really read the content and understand it. As with so many other forms of discrimination, education is the key to help break it and minimize it in the future and we as gay activist try to target the hardline fundamentalists/un-christian coalition groups and that only plays into their hands. We need to rethink our strategies and use them where they'll do the most good - the silent Chritians.

This is an EXCELLENT post midtnscott!! I'd say it's dead on accurate.
I've been glancing through the forum so quickly these past couple weeks but I've been following your posts, and this conversation, with interest.

So I thought now would be an okay time to interject and offer both you and Pablo a proper "welcome" to the forum. Thanks for your thoughts, both o' ya! :)

[midtnscott]

Thank you Zerbie and Pablo,

To anyone who can't tell by now, my major in college was political science and history. During my studies I learned a lot about the American Government and how it works as well as the history the founding fathers based their architecure on. It was fascinated and, in terms of our present form of government, sickening at the same time. Democracy is dead in the U.S. and has been replaced with an Oligarchy - government of, by and for the few; in our case large corporations.

From a politician's standpoint, i.e. campaign contributions, the fundamentalists are considered one of those corporations. While we are certainly encouraged to be active in our government as Christians we should never forget Christ's admonition that he did not come to set up an earthly kingdom and that Christians should be in the world, not of it. The fundies have turned that teaching on its head. "Render unto to Caesar the things that are Ceasar's and to God, the things that are God's."

We must make middle America understand the if the fundies gain the absolute control they want that everyone is isn't with them will be considered an enemy and they, the fundies, will try to destroy them. They will attempt to build an earthly kingdom for Christ. There is a reason politics and religion don't mix and our founders were wise enough to realize that and attempt to set up barriers to prevent the two from mixing. The idiot, and I use that term very mildly, in the White House panders to the fundies for votes and would destroy the barriers that have served us for over two hundred years for nothing more than political gain.

Other than what I said in my previous post, I really don't know what else to do except keep pushing and praying. I do think we lost a lot of ground under President Clinton, not because of any lack on his part but because we recognized an ally and shut down our activisim machine. Even now I don't think the machine is back to full speed yet. WE got lazy and it has cost us.
Oh well, enought of politics.

Scott