Horrible Premonition

[midtnscott]

After reading about half of Mel's new book, Religion Gone Bad, which I intend to finish tonight, I began to get a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. It had nothing to do the book or Mel's writing, but what the future may hold for us.

There are some things that need to occur before the second coming and there really isn't much debate about them. One of the is that the entire world will have been exposed to the gospel teachings. For a long time hard-line evangelical Protestants assumed the Catholic Church would accomplish that. After reading about some of the fundamentalist coalitions, I'm not so sure. Between Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and James Dobson most of the world is reached by their "ministries."

These coalitions, the UN-Christian Coalition of Pat Robertson and the IM-Moral Majority of Jerry Falwell, not forgetting James Dobson who isn't even a doctor of theology but speaks and deceives the public into thinking he is, rely on different denominations acting together for a common cause. These groups are comprised of members of virtually every religion on earth - in effect creating a universal denomination, or church; another pre-requisite for the second coming. The gay cause is being used as the wedge issue that has allowed them to gain power.

It has been made abundantly clear that the three stooges of the fundie movement are out to discredit and destroy anyone at all who doesn't believe exactly as they do by deceiving Christians everywhere that they are acting in good faith and for the advancement of the cause celibre. Revelations makes it clear that in the Tribulation anyone not toeing the line will be killed. How far we from that now? It will only take a push.

It is commonly accepted that Satan's greatest tool is deception; appearing beautiful, fair and friendly - a good friend. When I contemplate how he could take over there is only one answer, he must convince Christians that they are following the right path and God's will. What if Dobson, Falwell, and Robertson are Satan's dupes tricked into thinking they are doing the will of God? I really hope that I am wrong, I pray I am but "what if?"

The Bible tells us that Lucifer was an angel of light, God's most beautiful creation before man. He, Lucifer can appear as the world's greatest benefactory when in fact what is behind the eyes is dark and evil. I think about the cute, boyish Ralph Reed, darling of the Christian Coalition with his bright charm and charisma. Everyone, everyone who has had dealings with him has described him as "ruthless!" The old testament prophets on the other hand describe Christ as having no beauty that anyone should desire him. Again, Mel's book made me think!

Call it intuition, premonition, or common sense but as I was reading last night things began to fall into place and make sense. I pray I am wrong! I don't normally but I do now. If anyone can shed some light on my thoughts, please do so. I think we've only begun to see what may be in store for us if Dobson and crew gain absolute control and he only needs one more Supreme Court Justice to do just that. Please think on what I've written and let me know your thoughts.

Scott

[revtj]

I haven't read Mel's book yet but I am looking forward to it. I just wanted to respond to your post and say the gospel gives me hope and that makes me an incontrovertible optimist about the future. These people are being exposed for what they are by good, godly people like Mel. And people are starting to get it.

For instance, did you hear that the Christian Coalition is splitting? Georgia & 4 other states withdrew to form a new group. The religious right is not as water-tight as they seem. When you're as rigid as they are, internal division is inevitable because there is no room for flexibility (not to mention no room for the hope of redemption, grace and reconciliation!) I hope the new party names themselves the rigor mortis christian coalition.

Anyway, take hope. Take heart and put your trust ONLY in God, not the church, not even Soulforce totally, but in God alone totally. All shall be reconciled. God is still at work reconciling the world, she hasn't quit her day job, no matter how bleak it looks. :)

peace,
revtj

[dewdrop_world]

On a more positive note, Keith Olbermann has been tearing into W. lately -- and NOT getting fired for it (yet).

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/?&&id=15004160

This is a depressing read vis-à-vis the administration, but a step in the right direction for the press. ONE person, at least, is starting to get it.

James

[Emproph]

What if Dobson, Falwell, and Robertson are Satan's dupes tricked into thinking they are doing the will of God? I really hope that I am wrong, I pray I am but "what if?"

Call it intuition, premonition, or common sense but as I was reading last night things began to fall into place and make sense. I pray I am wrong!No, you're dead on. Completely right. I call it "tapping in," as in you're tapping in to the pool of understanding of those of us who already know this.

First of all, I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. Beside the myriad of human hands its words have passed through, The idea of a closed cannon appears to me as absurd. It is tantamount to saying NOTHING else need be learned. In addition to that, the fact that there is even ONE question about Biblical veracity is proof of error. Obviously an All Powerful God could have designed a better way of ensuring that Its word was preserved in a way that EVERYONE could and would agree was without error. And obviously, at least to me, A God who is Love, would have done so, assuming eternal hell was real. To put it simply, the Bible is true to extent it witnesses to the fact that God is Love, everything else is subject to interpretation and/or explanation.

That said, I find remarkable correlation between some of what is written in Revelations and what is occurring today. I can only speak for what I understand. For example:

Matthew 10:34-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=31)
34)"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35) For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -36) a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

-To divide the right from wrong, those who are hot and those who are cold and those who are lukewarm. Fired up for God/Love, stone cold and unfeeling, or the wishy washy who go with whatever.

We saw this during the ‘04 election, at least I saw it. Each side was dead set on their position. We were literally sliced down the middle politically speaking. That’s just one example.

Since then I’ve seen clearly that the ‘religious right’ are the ones in the book of Revelations that REFUSE to “repent,” plaque after plague after plague. It is such an irony.

The only purpose of foretelling the future is to avoid it. Revelations, IF true, is a warning. The very people who are certain they are “safe” from the tribulation and are part of the “book of life” are the ones who refuse to “repent,” and who by expecting the reality of the warning of the book of Revelations, are inadvertently and sometimes knowingly, attempting to CREATE it.

We don’t NEED any “tribulation.” If there is any truth to Revelations it was meant to be a warning to avoid it. It is only the “lukewarm” and the stone “cold” so called “Christians” who need it in order to prove to themselves that they were right all along so they can satisfy their egotistical and thus evil desire to be superior to others.

And since they (“Christians”) don’t get it, that means the message is for us. They are the SOURCE of the “tribulation.” This is the warning of Revelations. We either allow them to create this reality for ALL of us, or we figure out a way to convince them that it’s something that can and MUST be avoided, and we do this by “out loving them” as Mel so aptly said it in his book.

They, or at least their mindset, is the threat and this is our challenge. Either way you slice it there is going to be a “tribulation.” It’s just a matter of whether it’s by choice or not. Do we allow them to lead us into a downward spiral of justified wars and economic collapse, or do we take to the streets and/or boycott the Bus companies or the phone companies or the oil companies, or WHATEVER it’s going to take to avoid generations of picking up the pieces.

There's no "what if" about it, this is reality. You just woke up.

[Steven E. Webster]

Last nite I went to here a lecture here in Madison by the well-known U of Chicago Professor Martin E. Marty. Marty was co-editor of the encyclopedic, five-volume, Fundamentalist Project published in the 1990's.

One very hopeful thing was the huge crowd (several hundred to a thousand) people that went to hear Marty at Madison's Civic Center). Marty was speaking on Fundamentalisms--he always uses it as a plural, because every religious tradition these days have their Fundamentalists.

Fundamentalists are both the products of modernity and reactors against modernity. The lecture series of which Marty was a part focused on conflict in the Middle East, but Marty and his audience were equally concerned by the political power of Fundamentalists in this country. Political Christian Fundamentalists in this country drive some of the policies that are getting us in trouble in the Middle East.

Anyway, Marty expressed "pessimism" about the future, but at the same time suggested that we not be paralyzed by pessimism. We need to keep reaching out to Fundamentalists to break down the barriers which Fundamentalism sets up. We need to overcome the "fear of the other" which is part of Fundamentalism. We need to be informed and engaged.

I think non-violence is the proper approach to Fundamentalism, because Fundamentalism depends on fear of "enemies." When we "attack" Fundamentalism we only confirm their fears that we seek to destroy them.

Notice how often the Fundamentalists make the claim that gay people are out to "destroy western civilization." How do we demonstrate to people the absurdity and wrongness of that false claim, without confirming the fears of the followers of Fundamentalist preachers?

All this underscores what Mel says, "People are not the enemy, untruth is the enemy."

Steven Webster

[marutidas]

Faith shouldn't be of believing the right things, or being able to quote sacred scriptures or being duped into following a particular path.
It should be about Love, Loving GOD, YOURSELF AND ALL THOSE AROUND YOU( yes, I type in all caps, but you cant scream on a computer).
These fundies, I don't know their god, the god I know is an Ocean of Love and Compassion, the God I know loves you no matter what you do in life,
the God I know does not hate.
On the subject of other religions, I think it would be a good Idea to get to know another faith, I find it helps temper my own.
I have long ago gotten over the idea of who right or wrong, theologically speaking. As a famous guru once said
All paths leads to God...The same Blood flows through us all... the arms, the legs, the heart...all the same. see no difference, see all the same.(neem karolie baba)

Add on:
With that in mind, How could this relate to the origianl post of three big bad fundis, and that Really disturbing movie that has come out, "Jesus Camp", It was abosolutly sickening to watch that woman basically praise the extremist the middle east and other parts of the world and Brainwashing those kids. Instead of talking about it and letting people come to them, and cultivating faith and spirituality and a true Love of God, they have gone to great lengths to Guilt, Coerse and Blackmail people in to converting.

I grew up in a very conservitiave household, but not as bad as I have seen, Thank God.
I was very into christianty, I knew alot about the bible and the stories. But then, I dont even know how it started to happen, I became interested in other religions and philosophy. I remember it was like waking up from a very long dream.

So even with the Brainwashing you could do to these kids,
could simple teenage rebellion break it.
Children are hungry for knowledge, and they will get it if want them to or not.
I cannot imagine how you could keep that kind control over your children.
While it is scary to think that Church Extremist camps exist,
I find hope in knowing that you cant keep that kind of hold for long in an ever changing world.

As the part of the devil, I dont really believe in heaven or hell or that the rapture will have anything to do with god. (We are just so good at destroying ourselves and each other that we dont need god's help.) But I dont think you need a boogy man to get people to believe if you just treat people with Love and Compassion. I am not so naieve to think evil doesn't exist. It lives within us all, and we all have equal opprotunity to be either at some time in our lives. But I think All of humanity is inherently good, we just stumble along the way.

That all I have to say about that.

[midtnscott]

While I am grateful to those who have read and posted responses to my original one, I think my intent may not have come through. A little background: I was raised in a very strict fundamentalist houehold in North Alabama and for over twenty years didn't miss a service. Any denomination who didn't believe exactly as we did was the enemy and an agent of the Anti-Christ. It may sound funny but that is their belief. I say "their" because I knew what I was reading wasn't what I was being told in church and decided to go my own way. So, I have an insider's understanding of the fundie movement and am fully awake and cognizent of what is going on. I could probably predict with a 90%+ some of their actions. My concern was that uncomfortable feeling you get when you know something bad is going to happen and you feel powerless to stop it. Over the years I had all of the tantillizing pieces but they only coalesced the other night into a comprhensive picture of the whole.

That picture offers a troubling view of the future unless more people in evangelical church's wake up, stand up, and speak up for what the true teachings of Jesus stand for and mean. I am a realist, not a pessimist, and I understand there we are going to have to fight to get what should be ours. I fully recognize that the good work that is being done and appreciate it and further understand that all is not lost. However, we must be ready to fight, and by that I mean activism - not remaining silent and hoping the fundies go away. That has been the policy in the past and we can't continue it. The only examples of non-violent protest more forceful than Ghandi and King is the example of Jesus. The non-retaliatory acceptance and quiet stand seem to gather a thunderous force against oppressors and it may be that alone which leads some of the fundies into foaming-mouth, bug-eyed tirades against us. They see the proverbial "hand writing on the wall" and know that their time is limited and become even more afraid, if that's even possible.

The main reason for my original posting was to see if others had the same perception as I and it appears that most do.

[Emproph]

For some context of that last post:

-I say all that with the confident understanding that this is just the beginning.

If we see the idea of a “tribulation” beyond and through to other side, then the “tribulation” is no more than the contractions of our birth as a species – the beginning of the full reflection of God in matter.

This is JUST the beginning, we haven’t even been born yet. This is what “they” don’t seem to get – and hence – why they need a “tribulation.” It reinforces their fear of it. (The price to be right.)

God is already here as much as God can POSSIBLY be here. “Seeing God” is no further away than fully recognizing this. The Second Coming will “occur” when enough of us realize that.

I say don’t be afraid, be excited. God is in perfect control, and God IS Love.

(P.S. I don't mean to ignore anyone, I still have to go back and read more thoroughly what’s been posted since.)

[Lydia]

I was very into christianty, I knew alot about the bible and the stories. But then, I dont even know how it started to happen, I became interested in other religions and philosophy. I remember it was like waking up from a very long dream.

Have you ever read any of C.S. Lewis' series of books about Narnia? The first book is called The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe - a movie based on it was released last winter.

Anyway, what you said in the above quote reminded me of a scene in the fourth book of the series, The Silver Chair. Without giving too much of the plot away in case you haven't read it, one of the characters in the book is held captive for many years. Part of the reason this character was able to be held in captivity for so many years is that their captor was able to put a spell on them to make them forget where they had come from and who they were.

When the spell is broken the character describes the return of their memory as waking from a long dream.

It's a series made and marketed to kids, but I think you might enjoy reading it.

(I'm not sure how familiar anyone here is with C.S. Lewis...my apologies for hijacking the thread. :) )

[AlexZello]

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think?

[AlexZello]

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think?

uh, here's the site in question: Middle East conflict (http://samsonblinded.org/blog)