"It's Unnatural!"

[Mia14]

My girlfriend's mother goes back and forth in whether or not she's happy we're together. Lately, she's been concerned about the growing support for gay marriage and she comes at us saying things like "You better not try to get one of those gay marriages because you know it's just not right. Two girls cannot get together and decide to call it a marriage."

In those times, my mind goes blank. What do you say to people who don't agree with gay marriage? What arguments do we have? I've been doing some research of my own, but I know there are some great allies in this forum who have been talking about this for a long time...

[BruceChris]

I have to say that I do not know any of the people involved, and I am really not that much of a people person myself. So one important piece of advice would be to get input from other gay people, online, here, from pflag, from your own community, etc. Another would be to do your best to follow the process used by Dotti and Roby in Gay into Straight America.

http://gayintostraightamerica.com/index.php?page_id=12

Do your best to always have a positive attitude around her (gf's mother).
Try to make friends, and do not respond directly or negatively to any argument or criticism that she may have, even though you are always making it clear that your relationship will not be negatively influenced by her. Avoid the subject of marriage. Make sure she knows of all of the good things that are going on with you and your gf. If you can, bring over a woman couple who have been together for a long time, but do not bring up their time together directly. Maybe let them do it? Try to make it just sort of come out in conversation?

Your goal here should be to make a good emotional impression on her, not to overpower or outmaneuver her with arguments. She is coming from a place of fear, and should be given positive reinforcement any way you can. You probably already know this, but I think it may be nice to stop and think about it now and then.

Other Soulforcers? Mia could use input from someone besides me, and I could use some help here.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

ps, NICE photo

[suzer1013]

Hi Mia. Bruce Chris had some good advice, which I second. I think it is hard to be patient with our loved ones. It can take a long time for people to come around, when they've been taught to view gay relationships negatively for so many years. I would focus on modeling a positive relationship when you are around her, telling her how much you love her daughter and how committed you are to her.

If a discussion about gay marriage pops up, try to handle it gently, but firmly. Perhaps talking about what really makes a marriage -- love, commitment, fidelity, sticking it through the rough times, sharing the joys and sorrows, etc. -- might help. Ask her to define a heterosexual marriage, and how does that differ from your relationship with your gf (except in the area of sexual acts, it doesn't differ at all!).

She may just need time to get used to the idea. My sister came out to my parents 13 years ago, and I came out over three years ago. It took them a long time to get used to the idea after my sister came out, but by the time I came out, they were pretty comfortable with it. That isn't to say they still don't have moments of hesitancy, but for the most part, we all get along as well as any other couple does with their in-laws!

Blessings,

Susan

[ladyinred]

I belong to the forum on copper.net And there is alot of discussion about gay people and their rights.. because I happened to come across a website not relate to this forum, it was by Christian fundamentalist who justified violence and hate against gays by pronouncing God's word.. Most of the people on the forum don't outrightly pronounce violence against gays but have an intolerant view of them none -the -less. Here is what I wrote on this forum to different members:
Henirietta, I’d like to add something about what Rayno had to said about gays on the other forum. He firmly believes in the inerrancy of the bible, so I’m not going to change his mind... so we disagree on this subject.. But when I was talking about many gays, including teenagers who often commit suicide because of remorse and feeling that they are a " bad person "who is not "right" with God, he seemed to think that was God speaking to their "conscience" according to traditional Christian teachings.
Conversion therapy is also controversial as well. Could it be that many gays are filled with such hatred and remorse for their orientation and in a desire to fit into mainsteam society and to avoid retribution by Christians and others and thinking they can’t be right with God unless they do.. try desperately to conform and fit in?
Also I happened upon a website that was full of hate from someone who was a Christian fundamentalist. And I mean HATE. He felt like hate and violence toward gays was totally justified because of God’s word. He didn’t believe they should have equal protection or anything under the law. Now I’m not saying all Christians are violent against gays, they may disapprove of the lifestyle but they aren’t going to launch a campaign of violence toward them. Here’s an illustration I’d like to make.. Suppose the majority of people were of another religion than Christianity in America and suppose because Christians didn’t follow their views and beliefs or didn’t bow down to their god, Christians were viewed as a group to be presecuted and oppressed. No toleration allowed, they must be excuted for their beliefs.
Well the first thing you probably see happening as in some countries who do not tolerate Christianity, they would go under ground or live in secret ,or practice their faith in secret to avoid violent consequences against them (Which is why many gays remain in the closet by the way) No one wants violence and hatred directed at them , it is only normal. We see throughout history it’s consequence, Christians were even persecuted in the earlier days of Rome. Being fed to the lions among other things.
Why then do Christian people not understand gays concerns about the violence and the opppression and hatred being directed toward them?And that is actually where they share a similarity isn’t it? Ray said that guilt is the conviction of God’s spirit on gays to change their ways..Well if many of them commit suicide, how is that leading them toward GOD? And if according to the old testament , suicide is a sin, they are in a "No win" situation.. Bsaically "damned" no matter what.
I heard this story from a friend of mine who has a gay friend , well she went to church and she got the same treatment by the church. Repent or else. She became emotionally disturbed and almost suicidal.. When she regained her senses and talked to friends. She finally told the church," if you can’t accept me the way I am, I don’t want to be a part of this church." She changed her church by the way. I’ve also heard similar stories about gay people who are often coerced to change by families ,friends, societies, many resort to suicide, or stay in the closet and live secretly, or marry a person of the opposite sex, for appearance sake or to conform..Christians should be able to identify with that in many ways, because they were so persecuted And deemed freaks and abnormal..
In certain Moslem countries or perhaps I should say certain parts of Moslem countries,if you don’t follow their way.. you are dead.. They will not tolerate a religion different than their own.. Christians are in the minority there. I had a friend from Iran who was Buddhist and not Moslem, her belief is that if she went back to that country she would be persecuted for her beliefs. Think about the Jewish faith, the holocaust and other persecutions they suffered , isn’t there enough of that going on in the world already?
Why should we as Americans live like many third world countries and contribute more to it? We are beginning to act like them.. And this will always stifle progress of a civilization. When we live in so much fear of the other guy, who the hell is safe?

08 October 2006
138 Posts


Also why I said that Christians were deemed abnormal and "freaks" The Roman Empire in the early days of Christianity , thought they were a superstitious lot.. Ever hear of the term, "Jesus Freak"? Well ,growing up I heard it so much and it was a term of derision. Also Christians were a threat to the Roman Empire and the Pharisees of Jesus’ day and after he died... Paul was actually a Pharisee who persecuted Christians before he converted.. Jewish Pharisees were even threatened by Jesus when he came because his teachings did not correspond with their traditional views on Judaism.
I’m not trying to promote anti-jewish here. Because the jewish were persecuted much throughout history and I do not want to add to that hatred or contempt toward them... Islamic fanatics actually want to destroy Israel and hate the jews and want to see it’s destruction.. Jewish people are struggling for survival as well. But we see genocide throughout the world. Even the Moslems were persecuted and had violence directed at them by the Serbians...Many being murdered. What an upside down crazy world we live in. Good grief. And why do people want to contribute more to the insanity of it? Why don’t people get it?


Bottom is a response to my writings and what a Christian right fundamentalist had to say, and below his .are my further comments to him.

Message posted by kurtzwj1 on 12 October 2006 at 7:16pm - IP Logged

kurtzwj1

Standard Member

12 October 2006
1392 Posts

Violence against someone who is different is not acceptable but I think you are making a huge leap here. Christians are not roaming the streets attacking gays, muslims, atheists, etc. There can be absolutley no comparison between us and the middle east. It is a monumental stretch to draw that comparison and I find it is commonly used by the uneducated blog hacks around here. Frankly I find it ridiculous on an epic scale. I mean really- they still stone people to death in some Islamic countries. When was the last time you saw an American beheading someone simply because they had a different belief structure?

There is a huge difference between tolerance and endorsement. Allowing people freedom to choose their beliefs without the fear of violence, death or imprisonment is tolerance. Making sure they are free to work and support themselves is tolerance. Saying it is ok and Jesus won’t mind if you live in a sinful state is endorsement. Saying it’s ok to teach our grade-school children about gay sexuality regardless of what their parents want is endorsement. Certainly you are not suggesting that Christ endorsed a sinful lifestyle are you?

You see- we are not being asked to simply tolerate the gay lifestyle. We are being forced to endorse it. We are being forced to swallow the fact that our public schools are teaching our children a morality that is completely contrary to their upbringing and seemingly, we have no recourse. How far does the moral fabric of this country have to decay before people realize that we are on the wrong road?

Violence and drugs in our schools is at an all-time high. I surely don’t remember any school shootings happening when I was growing up. The liberalization of society has not done us any long-term favors and we continue to sink lower and lower. I just don’t get it.

-----------------
R.Kurtz- Free Pray_er

Message posted by ladyinred on 12 October 2006 at 7:19pm - IP Logged
ladyinred
Standard Member

08 October 2006
138 Posts

Remember the old song back in the seventies? Walk a mile in my shoes? Well some of the words to the song went..."|Walk a mile in my shoes, walk a mile in my shoes...before you abuse,criticize and accuse, walk a mile in my shoes...." Rather enlightening don’t you think?

Message posted by kurtzwj1 on 12 October 2006 at 7:43pm - IP Logged

kurtzwj1

Standard Member

12 October 2006
1392 Posts

Enlightening? No. Practical? Yes. Words to base a society on? Absolutley not. The sentiment is good, but the underlying theme in the context which you posted it is not. Once again- I am supposed to endorse something that is subversive to the will of God for the sake of political correctness. That dog won’t hunt.

-----------------
R.Kurtz- Free Pray_er

Message posted by ladyinred on 12 October 2006 at 8:58pm - IP Logged

ladyinred
Standard Member

08 October 2006
138 Posts

Kurtz. I am not hear to attack your views personally but to present a different view point.. Being this , while I agree with you no one should force a certain life style down anyone’s throat, a common sentiment by right wingers is gays are trying to convert people over to their lifestyle, but if you are already heterosexual, how on earth can they convert you...?
Another point to be made is how come heterosexual Christians are trying to impose their lifestyle and beliefs onto gays then? They have two choices according to fundalmentalist Christians, either marry straight or abstain...
You say that you don’t endorse the lifestyle , that this would be subversive to the will or word of God. Well let’s take a look at some of the old testament tenants for example.. People were stoned to death for not strictly following laws on the sabbath day not to work, people stoned for adultery, children for not obeying parents, for not following certain rules God supposedly ordained, slavery was allowed and permitted by god in the old testament . Hebrews could take slaves, men could have more than wife and could have concubines and this was supposedly blessed by God. Eating pork and certain meats was strictly forbidden.. among other things. The list is too numerous to put here.
Now that we don’t follow the strict observance of the laws of sabbath anymore, we do eat pork, don’t take on more than one wife , don’t stone adulterers or children, don’t endorse slavery, have we been subversive to the will of God by the way? Jesus said in his time that any man who put his wife away save for fornication was committing adultery. Many Christians have divorced and remarried .Have they been subversive to the will of God?
Well you here about many women who leave abusive relationships with men because it is harmful to themselves and their children to stay in such a relationship.. Perhaps Christians divorced their spouse for valid reasons as well.
Women were commanded by Paul to be submissive to their husbands and sit quietly and shamefacedly in Church with themselves covered and if they had questions ,to ask their husband, They could not ask questions in the church. Women were given the right to vote and enjoy more equality with men in this country today ,is that subversive to the will of God? And on top of that women were implicitly told to obey their husbands as in not being an equal partner in a marriage. Women very much resent men for that one. Are they slaves of their husbands by the way? They have no input , no say or rights in the marriage? And what if the husband tells the wife to do something that is not in her best interest to do?Are women being subversive to the will of God then because they want to respected as human beings and not dominated by their husbands and treated as inferior or a subserviant slave? Hmmm alot to think about here.
Although the new testament is much more progressive than the old . You also have to read what Jesus did on the sabbath day that was so strictly observed by the Jewish religious leaders , the Pharisees of his time. He did not follow it in the same strict observance that they demanded, was he being subversive to the will of God by breaking a certain law that God supposedly ordained?

Message posted by ladyinred on 12 October 2006 at 10:24pm - IP Logged

ladyinred
Standard Member

08 October 2006
138 Posts

Mentioning before but adding,that Jesus said that a man who put away his wife and forcing her to remarry ,forces her to commit adultery.. Paul said that if women should leave their husband to remain single. Here’s a point a woman is now condemned to be alone without the prospect of a future relationship. What if the woman due to the economic circumstances of her time, having little education or a means to support herself, married to gain the financial support of a husband in order to survive? What if her husband just left her?
Paul also stated women should be homemakers, staying at home taking care of the things of the home. Well many women today work and have to help their husbands to support their familes otherwise they wouldn’t be able to make ends meet.
But what about opportunities for women in the first place? Paul evidently didn’t mention women should have any.Even during WW2 women had entered the workforce while their husbands were fighting the war. Probably to help support their familes while there husbands were away.
Women have every right to economic opportunity, education and financial security as men. Supose a wife is married and her husband leaves her, or dies, well how is she going to make it in the real world then? She needs some means to support herself. And Rayno said that procreation ,having children, was God’s plan. What about single people who don’t wish to marry? Couples who adopt, married people who don’t want children? Are they sinners as well for not followin this "mandate" by god to be fruitful and multiply?
By the way I added these comments to prove the controversy over Paul 's teachings.. Because people basically get their views and assumptions about homosexuality by what he wrote.

[ladyinred]

It's amazing to see the recalcitrance of alot of people on the religious right. They insist on their absolute fixed ideas about the bible and it's teachings, but even the bible shows more of a progressive course when Jesus came for an example.. What he taught did not go along with the traditional views of the Jewish relgious leaders of his day , obviously, he was often criticized and attacked by them. Remember the stories of the sabbath? Well I mentioned earlier on this forum how Jesus often broke the laws of the sabbath to heal.
In the chapter in Luke 6:1-3, Jesus and his disciples were harvesting grain on the sabbath. The pharisees chided him and responded, "You shouldn't be doing that!!!!" It's against the law to work by harvesting grain on the Sabbath"(remember, in the old testament that people were put to death if they did work on the sabbath as "mandated by the god of the old testament.. Jesus replied "Haven't you ever read in the scriptures, what King David did when he and his companions were hungry? He went into the House of God, ate the special bread that was reserved for the priests alone, and gave some to his companions as well. (By the way this was strictly forbidden according to the code of conduct in the old testament ,it was considered a sin to do so. Only the priests could do so) That was breaking the law too." Jesus added,"I the son of man am even master of the sabbath. "
Now why I bring this up is because many times Jesus defied traditional jewish laws, there are many examples. If these laws were written in granite , unchangeable , preordained by God,then why would Jesus had broken the law Himself..?
What astonishes me.. is they are insistent, that the bible is the unerring word of God... But as I noted earlier, we see many progressive changes in the new testament in contrast with the old.. Was the old correct? Then why was it later deemed redundant? Paul writes... 2 Corinthians 3:14"......even to this day in the reading of the old covenant, a veil lies over their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And yet this veil can be removed by only believing in Christ.Yes, even to this day when they read Mose's writings, their hearts are covered by that veil, and they do not understand. But whenever one turns to the Lord, then the veil is taken away. Now where the Spirit of the Lord is, He gives Freedom."
Obviously Jesus came along as a savior and to bring reform and correction of an earlier spiritual belief system, or religious system. He did not teach that God was violent and a God of retribution. But a God of mercy and love and forgiveness. Now that is a big contrast with the god of the old testament.. Christ was definitely a reformer and revolutionary in bringing about a different idea of worshipping God. But look again in the new testament ,while I feel it is more accurate than the old, I still feel like there are writings by imperfect men, namely the apostles who still continued to believe in certain norms of the day... the inferior status of women, slavery, and of course condemnation of homosexuals... Curious as to why the word homosexual came into being by the bible of these days... it wasn't recognized as terminology in the language back then, it wasn't an even recognized orientation until the nineteenth century.Think of the suffering and oppression of these minority groups throughout the centuries, and it gives you ample proof that these were inhumane, cruel and barbaric beliefs that treated other people with anything but compassion. Would Christ had condoned these acts of violence and oppression toward these groups. Obviously not.
There are still arguments over translations of the bible throughout the centuries and whether they were accurate..Words that might mean something during and earlier time might have a completely different meaning now.. Also Irenaeus of Lyon was major contributer to the construction of the gospels of the bible... but there are now dead sea scrolls that have been found that were omitted from the bible .The gospel of Thomas and Mary Magdelene, among others. Here is a site on these earlier writing by the way. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

What troubles me about the religious right is they will promote their propaganda and try to ensure that gays are ostracized by the mainstream churches and communities. They are a hard bunch.. impervious to the pain of others and seem to have no interest in conciliatory measures. It is either their way or not at all. Period. It's like an impervious brick wall

[Dash]

When it comes to marriage, there's a couple things we share with all who marry...in-laws, and parents who dislike their child's choice of mate.

My parents maintained a close relationship with both sets of parents for awhile, but then there were some money/control issues from my dad's parents. Things changed after that. Later my mother had to come to terms with the childish and emotionally abusive habits of her parents. Things changed again. Distance grew.

If you choose to make a family...you're ultimately choosing someone you love over the child/parent relationship. That's okay. I know it's awkward and sometimes quite painful, and you should choose carefully. I would just hope that (when the time comes) you don't let her parents or your parents prevent you from marrying the one you love. It is not the parents choice...at least not in our present world.

I don't know if that's helpful, cuz it doesn't address the "gay" marriage question--just the reality of marriage. I do know that if (with heaven's kindess) I ever found someone to marry, I would inform my parents, and they would be always welcome...but it would be my choice. My parent's approval or disapproval would not change the fact that I am ultimately on my own in this life since leaving the farm. I love my parents, but I'd rather have someone who could share my days and be a comfort and help to me than forgo marriage to keep my parents happy. In this world, parents are not equipped to do that for their children forever; and since they cannot, they should not try to keep their children from marrying.

[ladyinred]

You just made a very valid point on love. We know that that is primarily the message of the new testament, is it not? While I disagree with certain writings made by Paul,and other things I might find inconsistent or incongruent in the scripture. The whole point is love. 1 John 4:7 "Dear friends let us love one another for love is of God. Anyone who loves is born of God and knoweth God but anyone who does not love does not knoweth God for God is love. He that loves dwelleth in God and God in him.... And other verses that state love does no harm to a neighbor. Another point I would like to mention is what I read in a book by Marianne Williamson. She say that while we need to love the oppressor , we should not involve ourselves in his way or join with him in the oppression.Hating people is inconsistent with God's law of Love ,period. So when the people of the religious right condone violent acts and hatred toward gays , this is clearly in violation of God's law, period. Another verse in the bible is is to be "blameless and harmless", children of God without fault, amidst a crooked and perverse generation among whom you shine as lights in the world. This clearly speaks out against violence as do other new testament biblical verses, as well as those that speak out on hatred, these are clear violations of Gods love.... "anyone who hates his brother is really a murderer at heart... and you know that no murderers have eternal life within."( Think about people who condone acts of violence against others in the name of hatred.. it really is an attempt to violate or murder them. hatred is not a passive thing.) Harmless means no willful malicious conduct toward others.:good:

[ladyinred]

Here is an article that debunks much of what the religious right and it's lunacy has to say about gay people.. Some of the things that the religious right pull. According to the religious right: Somehow gays foster pedophilia, promisciouty, bestiality and promote the decay of our society (as if there aren't heterosexual pedophiles, promiscious heterosexuals, and those who come from dysfunctional families, have emotional and psychological issues , use drugs, alcohol? Get aids or other stds? The situation in Africa with it's rampant spread of aids among the Africans that has left over ten million children orphaned debunked that mythology by the way. Other countries as well show this happens among straight married couples too.Teenagers according to what I've read are getting stds and aids as well .Also being molested makes you gay? How many young girls and boys who have been molested turn out to be gay, even in spite of it , many are straight and married .As if being molested determines your orientation? Or even being raped? I'd also like to add the mention of porno somehow makes people gay. How many straight men are on porno websites these days, aren't sex addicts among other things ?Proposterous.:eek: :confused: :disagree: :tdown: This commentary helps to debunk these myths. Another one that he stated was that homosexual have issues ,as if many straight people don't? Who doesn't? Note that he said there are deranged people of every stripe, meaning all walks of life, backrounds (even religious)colors ,races, gender... sexual orientation. None are immune to these problems. But it is wrong to catergorize a certain group of people as the particular problem..it's something akin to the pot calling the kettle black.. These are overgeneralizations about gay people. That they all lead destructive lifestyles..(Again ,there aren't heterosexual people who do as well?) I can think of numerous cases myself of people I know,or have heard about..

Gays Are the New Jews (59 comments )
READ MORE: 2006, George W. Bush
Is it my imagination or is our ability to accept people who are different from ourselves plummeting to dangerous levels? It was bad enough to see the ugly rhetoric at play in the 2004 presidential campaign surrounding gay marriage. If we are to believe the pundits, a big reason Bush and the Republican Party managed to squeak by was because of all the people who were terrified that legally acknowledging the unions between two people of the same sex would spell the end of our civilization as we know it and lead to men having six wives, women marrying five-year-old children, and human beings and kangaroos joining in holy matrimony.

With all the misery that's going on in this world, I cannot understand why some people are so fixated on preventing loving people from committing to each other and receiving the legal protections that heterosexual couples enjoy.

Although I am in favor of same-sex marriages for those who feel so inclined, I can see that it's going to take some time for the general public to fully accept it. I understand that it's a huge shift in the way many people have viewed marriage and that it may take a while for enough of a groundswell to develop for any new legislation to pass. In the meantime, I hope that alternative legal protections are provided to gay couples. I'm disheartened that many states are working hard to eliminate even those rights that were firmly in place before the gay marriage hoopla started up and I definitely think this downturn of support is a reflection of the current administration and its unholy relationship with the Religious Right. Nevertheless, I get that the concept of gay marriage is a stretch for some people even if I disagree with that point of view. But what really makes me see RED (pun intended) are the people, especially our elected officials, who are attempting to turn back the clock on the rights of gay men and lesbians through a malicious campaign of lies and distortions.

Have you heard about this Tennessee State Representative named Debra Young Maggart? For an elected official in this day and age to publicly espouse the crap she's been spewing and still get support from her constituents is mind-boggling. Rep. Maggart believes that gay people should be legally prevented from adopting children who need homes. It would be bad enough if she based her views on some selective interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, but Maggart takes it much further. She states that most homosexual couples are unfit to parent because they have "numerous emotional dysfunctions and psychological issues" and then goes on to offer this amazing pearl:

"We also have seen evidence that homosexual couples prey on young males and have in some instances adopted them in order to have unfretted access to subject them to a life of molestation and sexual abuse."

Are you screaming yet? Can you believe such a statement would come out of an elected official's mouth in 2006? Whether this woman believes such slander or is just trying to incite the basest fears of her fundamentalist mob, I don't know why this story isn't on the front page of every paper in the country and why she's not being publicly censured by the governor of Tennessee.

Rep. Maggart's statements add fuel to the growing attempts by right-wing groups to prevent gay people in this country from adopting foster children. Such a bill was narrowly defeated last year in Maggart's state but many more states are taking up the cause and a national battle is on the way. Needless to say, the Bush administration has no interest in rebutting the lies. And of course, the ones that will suffer the most will be the thousands of children who will never get the loving homes they desperately need.

I'm hesitant to adopt a defensive attitude and offer personal anecdotes about all the gay parents I know--that almost seems to give credence to Maggart's lunatic claims. But I wonder if people like Debra Maggart have ever spent five minutes in the home of any of the countless gay and lesbian couples who are lovingly raising children in this country. My wife and I are fortunate to know plenty of same-sex couples who have adopted very lucky children and I cringe at the thought of future children being denied such homes because of the closed-minded, intolerant ravings of legislators like Rep. Maggart. THAT, in my opinion, is a form of child abuse for which I hold Maggart and her cohorts entirely responsible.

Now I will insert the obligatory asterisk that yes, I'm sure that there have been cases of gay couples abusing their foster and adopted children "__since there are obviously deranged people of every stripe."_* No one is suggesting that homosexual couples forego the same screening that any heterosexual couple adopting a child would face. Not that this has prevented the many cases of abuse by straight couples. Just last week a couple in Ohio lost permanent custody of their 11 adopted children after it was discovered they made them sleep in cages. During their trial, two of the couple's biological children testified that their father had inappropriately touched them when they were minors. Gee, I guess we need to pass legislation making it illegal for heterosexual Christian couples in Ohio to adopt.

Maggart has also claimed that "some of the evidence we were presented showed that lesbian and gay couples have a higher rate of breaking up than heterosexual couples as well as higher rates of promiscuity outside of their relationships." Phew, I'm glad to know that straight couples in this country are not guilty of infidelity and that their marriages are secure. What a relief! And here I thought divorce rates were at 50%!

Her so-called evidence came from the group Focus on the Family (I can't bring myself to link to this hateful group but you can easily find it) whose anti-gay propaganda has been thoroughly discredited. Never mind that the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association, and the National Association of Social Workers all support gay adoption, Focus on the Family believes it must be stopped.

Focus on the Family has a whole section on its website about homosexuality (which they classify as a mental disorder). Here's the introductory paragraph:

You've seen Hollywood embrace "gay pride." You've been told that homosexuals make up 10 percent of the population (the actual number is less than 3 percent). Perhaps you've struggled with troubling thoughts, causing you to wonder about your gender identity, or maybe you've even sought to meet your needs for companionship and acceptance through a same-sex relationship. If so, you need to know that you do have a choice in the matter, that you're not simply "wired that way." Indeed, you don't have to be gay -- there is hope for those who want to change.

Then they provide a question-and-answer section in which experts respond to concerns that their readers supposedly have about homosexuality. Nothing too biased about the wording of these questions, right?

• I don't think my husband has a right to continue in the gay lifestyle and stay married to me. Does he?

• Homosexual activists claim their lifestyle, which in some cases includes thousands of sexual partners, should be sanctioned, protected, and granted special rights by society. Would you critique this stance?

These groups roundly reject the idea that there is a genetic component to homosexuality. No, it's all because of what mom and dad did when their kids were young. According to their article called "An Ounce of Prevention," homosexuality is caused by pornography, media and culture, spousal abuse in the home, molestation and pedophilia, parental adultery, moral relativism, and failure of leadership." But fear not: "A Christ-centered, loving family with an understanding of biblical principles can develop a healthy gender identity in children from the day they are born." But what about the Jews? I guess we better dust off our Judy Garland records and order our rainbow tallit--it's going to be a gay old time at the Passover seders this year. How lucky that my wife and I already belong to a GLBT synagogue!

In 1935, the Nuremberg Laws used pseudoscience to justify discrimination against Jews. Among the many rulings, the Nuremberg Laws made it illegal for Jewish couples to adopt Gentile babies. In 2006, some members of our government are trying to pick up where the Nazis left off. In an interview last week, Debra Maggart stood by her recent statements. "I don't wish to discriminate against anyone," she said. "But homosexuals have issues. That's my opinion."

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[ladyinred]

Here is another thing to consider. Why as a minority group that makes up 10 percent of the population singled out as the cause of the majority of the problems for social decline, when so many things in our society contribute to it. It seems that the religious right are looking for a particular scapegoat to dump it on as if it absolves them of the problems they help to contribute to society. Or by ridding our society of this particular "nuisance", as to how they see gay people,society's problems will now magically disapppear and things will be great. I guess no more divorces? no more abuse? No more violence? No more poverty? No more decay of families? Suddenly we will have entered a new millenium where all is right with the world because we are finally rid of the "scorge" of gay people. Does it somehow abdicate straight people of their responsibility for their actions as well? Plain dumb if you ask me.Their line of reason is skewed as well as warped. Total nonsense.:tdown: :eek: :confused: .....Come to think of it, that does bare resemblance to Hitler's philosophy and campaign against the jews..

[jason]

Do these numbers sound right? 100% of children conceived out of wedlock are by straight people. 100% of children in foster and state care are from straight sexual encounters. 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce. I wonder what percent of straight, long-term relationships have at least one of the people been unfaithful to any degree?

And the religious right thinks that we're the source of society's downfall? I wonder if the're afraid that we'll do a better job of raising families. You can guarantee that a gay couple will never have an unplanned pregnancy and if they decide to start a family, it will be because they really want it; it won't be an "accident." Hopefully children raised by gay parents will grow up to be respectful and accepting of all people. This might be a fear of the right as well.

Jesus never forced anyone to agree with Him and He didn't condone oppression to those who didn't agree with Him.

[Mia14]

I know I'm definitely not going to let her mother's opinion stop me from being happy in this relationship. My girl and I talk about getting married in the future despite her family's concerns. I think I'm going to just follow your advice for now; I'll be very positive about our relationship and try to slip in some similarities between same-sex and opposite-sex long-term relationships. I used to try to talk to her mother about her fears, but it usually ends in her warning her daughter not to listen to my brainwashing and becomes the stuff that starts future fights.

I think introducing her to a long-term same-sex couple would probably really freak her out because she's having a hard time understanding that her daughter's not going to change her mind about being with women. She has met Vanessa and I think she doesn't like the idea that her daughter can be a lesbian for the rest of her life.

[Guilty*By*Design]

Sorry if I came to this thread a little late, but I am in pretty much the same situation...

Mia,

Hey there, I'm pretty new here, but my gf and I are going through pretty much what you are with her parents. My parents don't come into play as my mom passed away 16 years ago and my father and I haven't talked in about 9 years courtesy of his new wife. Anyhow, her mother is very Catholic. She has a definite issue with Lesbians, which Carla (my gf) acredits to the fact that she was "hit on" by a woman once many years ago. Carla and I met online and for the year that I was still in the US and she here in Brazil, all her mother did was spew anti gay rhetoric at her. When I came down for "a vacation", but ended up staying, her mother took an instant liking to me. To this day, nearly a year later, she always tells Carla and I that she loves me very much, but she detests our relationship together. Our relationship is on "permanent ignore". She rarely comes to our house anymore, which most of the time is ok by me, as when she does, she only makes derogatory remarks to Carla about various things, mostly about us. And when we talked a little about getting married in São Paulo (It is legal here, though it is kept extrememly quiet due to the fact that this is an extremely Catholic country) we sent her mother and father into a tailspin. Her father wouldn't come out of his basement office (he is a lawyer) for about a week and her mother accused us of being selfish and only thinking about ourselves and not about her (which is generally her argument about everything) and how much it would hurt her. Carla held firm her ground and told them that our relationship is our business and we don't make a big deal out of it, they do. IF we choose to get married it is for us, as we already know that we are committed, and we wear matching bands as it is. This does not, in any way, reflect upon them, much as they would like to think that it does. Thankfully, we do have support in her family and it comes from a very unlikely source. Her paternal grandparents, who are more religious than her mother, have accepted us with open arms, though at first they were quite upset that Carla and I didn't tell them the truth about our relationship. They have repeatedly told C and I that as long as we are happy, that is all that matters. They understand that our relationship is just as valid as theirs and they do not try to wheedle themselves within it and disturb our rhythm. And they make a point in telling us that God was just as proud when he made us as he was all the other people in the world. They know that we (gays in general) were made the way we are and they make that clear to anyone that thinks otherwise. They are firm believers in "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I love them with all of my heart and I feel the same love in return from them.

As for me, when I do see her mother, I am always kind and gracious. You know the saying it's easier to catch bees with honey than vinegar? Well, I have the kill them with kindness routine with her. C and I are not demonstrative with our relationship. PDA is not something we wish to do. So we give her no ammunition other than what she gets from her own imagination.

I agree with what suzer, dash and the others said, just be positive around her and reinforce what you have with her daughter is a good thing. What dash said is correct, she may be stinging over the fact that her daughter has broken away and become a family with someone else, which is what all children do at some point, and she might be feeling a little pushed aside. But this is what we do in the world, we meet the one we settle down with and we break away. Some parents have issues with that. They intrinsically know that they cannot choose the one we love and some react very badly to that. I think you are doing the best thing, just be happy with your girl and try to stay positive around her mother. When she realizes that you and her daughter are happy and that you aren't going anywhere, there is hope that she will slowly change some of her views. I wish you much happiness and peace.

~R

[NathanATX]

My girlfriend's mother goes back and forth in whether or not she's happy we're together. Lately, she's been concerned about the growing support for gay marriage and she comes at us saying things like "You better not try to get one of those gay marriages because you know it's just not right. Two girls cannot get together and decide to call it a marriage."

In those times, my mind goes blank. What do you say to people who don't agree with gay marriage? What arguments do we have? I've been doing some research of my own, but I know there are some great allies in this forum who have been talking about this for a long time...

I would kind of just point out the obvious, since she seems so out of touch with reality.

"Lesbian couples have been getting together and calling it marriage for years... and more recently they have actually been getting married. If my girlfriend and I get to a place in our relationship where marriage is the logical next step, we're not going to "try to get one of those gay marriages," we are going to get married. And you are invited to the wedding."

[andrewlittle]

Unless the parent(s) involved have been abusive throughout the relationship with the child, which brings in wholly different dynamics, parents have a predisposition to embracing their children.

The problem, in cases like yours, is that this need to embrace is counteracted by a cultural or religious bias against GLBT relationships. That leaves the parent(s) themselves wrestling issues that are more about them than their kids.

As already advised, the best way for you to deal with this is to act in a way that is inconsistent with the bias she has inherited and consistent with the love she has for her daughter. The dissonance will eventually grow to the point where she will have to make a choice. You will not have any control over her choice. It will be based on what she decides is more important - parent/child love or individual/cultural acceptability.

Of the two of you, your GF has the best position from which to dialogue with your "mother-in-law" (to be, hopefully). Your GF's mom has no parental disposition to embrace you and, as much as she may like you, may see you as a threat and a cause of her cognitive dissonance. That role has to be assumed by her daughter, otherwise you will remain the source of the problem.

There's some very interesting Family Systems Theory stuff out there about conflict in families. You may even want to search out a family systems counselor for you and your GF to make sure that you don't play into a longer running, multi-generational problem.

But, anyway, God bless you and your GF for wanting to have a good relationship with her mom. And may God bless you greatly in your love for each other.

[pnggrad79]

As if my post is going to add anything to the already wonderful posts ahead of me...

I helped my 19 year old daughter write a paper for her freshman English class on gay marriage. She had some pretty good points and one of them was strictly on the basis of legality and the concept of freedom guaranteed in the US Constitution. As a lesbian, my wife and I got married in Niagara Falls, Canada, looking over the Niagara River at Buffalo, New York. I think marriage, as we know it, is a contract between two people who have committed to live together, and whatever that entails. My question to people opposed to gay marriage is-What gives you or anyone else the right to dictate who I choose to live with? In addition, the Constitution guarantees us the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
She wrote that marriage is largely a civil contractual process and should remain that. If the church wants to maintain a ceremony and discriminate who they let get married then let them do that, but the state should marry anyone who wants to regardless of who they are. The church has no business sticking its nose in civil affairs. :(

[BronzDragon]

"You better not try to get one of those gay marriages because you know it's just not right. Two girls cannot get together and decide to call it a marriage."

In those times, my mind goes blank. What do you say to people who don't agree with gay marriage? What arguments do we have? I've been doing some research of my own, but I know there are some great allies in this forum who have been talking about this for a long time...


» Thom says: ☛ :cookie: Pick your battles with care. What do you hope to gain from your mother that you do not already have? Love and Respect? Or do you wish to share the love of your life with your mother just as you would if this were a more acceptable arrangement in her eyes?

Either way, I would ask her, “What is it about a Marriage that you don’t want me to enjoy it with the love of my life?” I expect from that you can gain the sort of insight that will help you gain with your mother all that you hope for.

Ps: Just a suggestion, but ask that question of yourself, first. That way you are better prepared to answer it should it get turned back on you.

[rainbowdog]

hi Mia,
i believe that if you and your girlfriend truelly love each other, committed to one another through the good times and bad times,and cherish each other for long as long as you shall live then i don't see why you and your girlfriend should not be able to marry. As far as parents are concerned, that is a tough one. my parents don't approve of me being a lesbian. You need to explain to your mom, in a nice way of course, that this is the way God made you and what seems unnatural for her is natural for you.

Good Luck,
Christy

[scott snedeker]

I'm with Dash.

Parents will not be comfortable with anyone except the "prince charming" they dreamed of when your lover was born.

I would use the example of mixed race marriage bans in the south and the arguements "the children would suffer" that was used to substantiate that posture. Then drop the issue! Go on with your life.

You were not put on this planet to protect your future mother-in-law from her disappointment. She is in full charge of that! If you focus on her feelings then you are not focusing on your life and happiness. Your time and focus is precious don't waste it focussing away from your love, or your creation of your world by concentrating on what is affriming and pleasing

Love and affirmation,

Scotty:cowboy:

[BronzDragon]

You were not put on this planet to protect your future mother-in-law from her disappointment. She is in full charge of that! If you focus on her feelings then you are not focusing on your life and happiness.


» Thom says: ☛ Um, didn’t the Hebrew testament, remembered by the Christ, say something about leaving mother and father and joining with another soul? (Translation mine)~«

Genesis 2.23-24 Then the man said, “This one at last is bone of my bones and flash of my flesh. This one shall be called ‘Woman,’ for from man was she taken.” Hence a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, so that they become one flesh.