This saddens me...

[aftercomingout]

I got to read this a website before... I think it was a comment of some guy about homosexuality... Once again... People who promote this kind of thinking will just lead to further oppression of the LGBT...

"The facts about homosexuality are as follows: 5% of gays are born that way, the other 95% are gay because of bad upbringing/experiences. The CIA have indirectly funded gay rights groups and feminist groups to pervert society and destroy the family structure, thus decreasing birth rate. Homosexuality is a mental disorder but we shouldn't hate them, we should care for them. With our help and support they CAN change."

[Dash]

Sad, yes...but kind of a demotion too....hmmmm.

I thought we were the "tool of Satan." This statement says we're merely a "tool of the CIA?" Is there a pay cut involved as well?

[Jennifer5]

and that quote is a good reason to be a little upset... but those are all over the place and we justhave to learn how to read/or not read it, and move on... we must just keep going, knowing that there really are people who love us exactly the way we are:love:

[Dash]

Look Jen! We have the same time stamp on our posts!! Wow!

[Jennifer5]

what do you mean?

[Dash]

We both posted at 1:11PM... :D

[Jennifer5]

I didn't even realize that...lol... you managed to get your's in while I was writing mine...:love:

[Giancarlo]

The CIA? Whoever posted that seems to have emotional problems.

[keltic63]

We both posted at 1:11PM... :D

not according to my comp's clock. it was actually 2:11pm

oh, and now the CIA made me gay???

[aftercomingout]

Hey Thanks guys! Your comments really made me smile. :p Yeah... Probably the one who posted that also has emotional problems...
Even included the bashing the CIA...

[Dash]

Hey aftercomingout! I'm glad you could smile. It makes me think of Ray Bradbury's novel "Something Wicked This Way Comes." If you haven't read it, it deals with topics of melancholy, fear and evil. The heros of the story discover that overcoming the dark forces involves finding happiness and laughter.

Anyway...sometimes all I can do is laugh at the nonsense that comes out of the anti-gay mind. If I don't find something to laugh at, I just want to cry. Fortunately, anti-gay folks provide an endless supply of lunacy! :lol:

Do you ever visit Good As You (http://www.goodasyou.org/)? I go there almost every day to get a hearty laugh at the silliness of our opponents. Sometimes that "humble scribe" loses his own good humor, but generally he helps me keep my own good cheer.

CIA!:shifty: Hahahahahah!!!! :dove: :love: :cowboy:

[ladyinred]

I'm glad everyone is positive and upbeat. I don't know what else to say, you all pretty much say it... It's pretty inspiring to be around a group like this, it helps offset alot of the negativity I hear with the religious right folks . I belong to a forum on copper, while there are people who are open minded and say that gays should have the same rights and protections as anyone else. There is the backlash of those who call themselves religious and print all the misinformation and distortions about the gay lifestyle.. So it is encouraging to be here among you all. I need a break awy from that stuff.

[ladyinred]

Have you all ever asked yourself why these people are so obsessed about gays anyway. Shouldn't they attend to their own affairs and marriages and lives. It's really weird, but they are really obsessed about gays and their lifestyle.. For example shouldn't "focus on the family" be just that, focus on their families...? Don't they have better things to do? I guess not . It is just really weird to me.

[Zerbie]

Hi Lady - or, Red - (trying to come up with a short version of your screenname :D, I'm not liking LIR which sounds too much like Long Island Railroad, yeah I'm a dork for thinking of that:p ) - good question.

I've never understood why there is such attention on gays. Except as scapegoating. Have you read Mel White's Religion Gone Bad? He does a nice job of putting the anti-gay stuff into a larger socio-historical perspective. It's worth a look, and based on your posts here so far, I believe it would interest you a good deal.

[ladyinred]

Yeah, I think I'll look into it, I was checking it out.. It seems like he knows his stuff for sure.. I've just gained information on what I've read on different websites. Such as religious tolerance, Crossleft, Talk to action, Bush watch, Afterdowningstreet,and theocracywatch.org. I like to keep informed. So my knowledge is still growing about alot of this stuff. But like I said, I get sick of going to other forums on other websites and one of the primary issues is gays. and I've seen the anti gay rhetoric, well I figured if they could spread their stuff on the web so would I. I'll tell you what, I get alot of support from the atheists or agnostics, even though I'm neither. I chat with them alot..And many of them have liberal views and are also bashed alot of times on these forums. But alot of them speak up for gay rights and are not afraid to say what they think... These people are definitely not timid.. I admire them for that. I'd also like to add , why I write on these forums is to educate people and dispel myths about GLBT people.. as well as to what the relgious right is doing.... One of my first endeavors several years back was to debunk the myth that only gay people get aids. I was furious with that one. Because I felt the media was also distorting the facts and seeing this as a "gay disease.". Aids, like any other disease doesn't discriminate.. I also replied that if this is a gay disease , how come so many people in Africa and other countries are dying from it among primarily heterosexual couples. I stated the epidemic has left 10,000,000 + orphaned.. I also added if this was a gay disease, then only gay people could get it. Well we now know the disease can be spread different ways and not only sexual contact... And we also know of cases of heterosexuals getting aids here in the US.I can't site the statistics on that one. But I've read articles.. I was trying to dispel the stigma toward gays about this disease.I've heard outrageous comments as aids is a punnishment of God toward gays for their "immorality." Explain then how infected straight mothers transferred this disease to their unborn children, we've heard numerous stories on that one.

[ladyinred]

I figure if they can spread lies and misinformation , I can spread truths without distortion and misleading information.

[ladyinred]

:love: I will say in my earlier writings on forums such as these, when I read the anti-gay rhetoric on these forums I had a bone to pick with them and I was out show them just how wrong they were, getting into arguments many times. Guess what, it just escalated into a warfare of words, and I was getting atttacks on all fronts, I certainly didn't gain their sympathy or understanding by any means,It just made things worse. So I've learned alot since then and I've gentled-down. Instead of making rude remarks and insulting them. Usually I just try to point out my view and will say, I disagree with you on this one. Or this is my point of view without getting into inflamatory and negative remarks about them. Either that or I will say something complimentary about them in spite of our differences. It makes it easier..... And even though they may not change their minds, there aren't the derogatory remarks that go on..or the arguments or accusations back and forth. I really defeated my purpose back then. Like I pointed out to one gentlemen because we talk about other things and issues as well. "Well I know you are a sincere Christian but I just don't see it that way." And while I may disagree with you about this, I'm not trying to insult or offend you, this is just something we don't see eye to eye on.

[ladyinred]

:eek: :tdown: :unhappy: :whistleblower: By the way in one of the earlier post a woman was commenting that gays are trying to censor free speech in America... I'd like to note that any group that has hate rhetoric or violence directed at them or even encouraged toward them , will not take this lying down... I use this to illustrate a point... Supose the target was another minority group such as blacks.. And the Christian right started spreading all sorts of hateful rhetoric about them...saying they were causing the decay and downfall of society and we needed to get rid of them. How do you think they would react? Not too kindly to say the least. I am not advocating hatred of blacks in any way , but just using them to illustrate a point, In fact the republican wanted to amend the "Right to vote act." ..Why? Isn't that a form of discrimination on their part toward other minority groups like black people? Republicans are Fencing Out Ordinary Americans
House of Representatives - September 20, 2006



Mr. Speaker, the Republicans are so concerned about their own hides that today they voted to fence off the U.S. Constitution from the American people. There is nothing to do with borders between the U.S. and Mexico or between the U.S. and Canada. It has everything to do with the Republican Party fencing out ordinary Americans from participating in their own government.

Watch this floor speech
[Get Windows Media Player]

Why let everyone vote when they might actually vote for the Democrat or for the independent? Democracy is messy for the Republican Party these days, so they are going to short-circuit the process. Who needs to stay up late to watch the vote returns or worry about exit polls, when Republicans have come up with a plan to deny 7 million ordinary Americans the right to vote?

Of course, they have targeted people they don't think will vote Republican: the disadvantaged, the disabled, the elderly, Native Americans, among others. Republicans like to say they are spreading democracy around the world. Here at home, they are using this bill to disenfranchise American people.

Republicans have created a nonexistent crisis because their right-wing base is unhappy and in need of attention. Today the Republicans moved to solve a crisis they created. They want everyone to have an official government-issued photo ID before they could vote.

So much for that Republican line about getting the Federal Government out of our lives. The Republicans want the Federal Government in your face, snapping pictures. Before you could vote, you would have to produce an official government-issued photo ID. A passport would work. You know, that is the kind of document that the rich have, because they take vacations in other countries. The poor don't take vacations at all. No passport, no vote. No problem for Republicans.

Of course, the Republicans will rush to the podium over here to say that you can use your driver's license. They will not tell you that the National Commission on Federal Election Reform in 2001 estimated that up to 10 percent of Americans eligible to vote do not have official State photo ID, like a driver's license; no photo ID, no vote, no problem for Republicans.

Now, in Georgia and Missouri, they tried this. It was thrown out in court. So today we do it at the national level. We are going to do it for everybody. They will be delighted if ordinary Americans stay home on election day. In fact, they would be relieved.

They know that this bill will encourage it. That is why Republicans are behind it 150 percent. It is the latest step in the Republican strategy to hold on to power in the election of 2006, even if they have to dismantle the democracy to do it. They passed the Help America Vote Act, and then amended it to become the Help Republicans Stay in Power Act by underfunding the legislation.

They said they were helping, but they put no money out there. It is reminiscent of Florida in 2000. Republicans are building a border fence inside our borders to keep the American people out of participating in their own government. This bill will prevent millions of people from casting a ballot, exactly what the Republicans want.

Republicans want to replace the fundamental right in America, the government of the people, by the people and for the people with something else: government of the few, by the privileged and for the rich. This is the creed of the Republican 1 percent Party.

The President of the League of Women Voters, Mary Wilson said, "This is an attempt to politicize the voting process by erecting barriers to keep many eligible legal voters from participating. Congress should not be playing politics with our right to vote," closed quote.

Yet the Republicans are hijacking the right to vote of an ordinary Americans. Why? Because they are afraid of losing power and afraid they can't scare the American people into submission any longer. Letting every eligible American vote means the American people might actually choose the person they want.

That is something Republicans find truly frightening, so they are building a fence to keep the Americans out of America. But the fence won't go up in this bill till 2008, so the American people have a mid-term election ahead. You know what they are up to. You know what they want to do.

But you have a chance to vote, still, everybody has a chance to vote, and the people can vote and protect their right to vote by voting against people who will put up this kind of legislation. We saw in 2000 the efforts to keep people away in indirect ways. This is a direct shot at Americans' right to vote.

[ladyinred]

This say something about how absolute power corrupts.. Republicans want to maintain that control ,even at the expense of th American people.:( Why do people vote for this party then? If they are trying to undermine our constitutional rights and are not acting in th best interests or welfare of this country. Not only are they corrupted by greed, but their lust for power and control.

[Giancarlo]

Have you all ever asked yourself why these people are so obsessed about gays anyway. Shouldn't they attend to their own affairs and marriages and lives. It's really weird, but they are really obsessed about gays and their lifestyle.. For example shouldn't "focus on the family" be just that, focus on their families...? Don't they have better things to do? I guess not . It is just really weird to me.

They think more about gay sex than gay people do. It's actually quite ironic. Did you hear there was a study done some time ago indicating that 80% of homophobes in fact like the same sex?

And yes, they are indeed focusing on the family! Focusing on ruining it in any way they can. These people who claim they preach family values are driving LGBT youth onto the streets. It angers me greatly.

[Jennifer5]

While I understand what everyone is saying about Focus on the Family, I have to ask that we take a time out and look at them....

While they cause a lot of hurt for the GLBT community, they are not all bad and they do a lot of good things. They help a lot of people and a lot of families, getting mad about what they say isn't going to fix anything, it's all about understanding and that has to go both ways if we want change. We can't be unreasonable, if we want them to listen, we have to listen to... Dr. Dobson is not a bad guy, but he is also clearly not fully educated on this topic and doesn't understand. So please I ask that we don't get mad and start saying bad things about Focus on the Family... it won't get us anywhere, and saying bad things about other people only makes us look bad.

[jason]

Maybe people's anger/disgust shouldn't be directed at FOF as a whole since good could come out of the organization. Maybe it should instead be directed at the mis-information about homosexuality that they pass off so credibly as fact. Maybe it should be directed at the way they twist credible research findings and reference scientific-sounding "research" (from NARTH for example) to support their claims. So many people are duped into believing what FOF has to say on this subject since it all sounds so convincing. Combine the "scientifically proven" babble with the commonly held belief that the Bible denounces homosexuality and they have people lapping all of it up without examining the issue on their own by looking at "our" side of the story.

So is the problem the information they provide or is it the organization that is providing it?

Addition: Jennifer, I should have added that you're aboslutely right that we cannot expect people to listen to us if we are unwilling to listen. Also, it seems to me that the ones who sling the most dirt are usually the ones who are wrong.

[Zerbie]

Hooo-boy, I'll need a flame-proof suit now. . .usually I agree with everything Jen says, but this time, I don't think so. The trouble is, right now there is no distinction between what FOF does and what FOF is designed to BE. Focus is doing [B]precisely[B] what it intends to do - the misinformation about gays is not being promulgated by mistake or oversight, not at all. Rather, because it fits into a vision that Dobson and certain like-minded individuals have in mind for how they want this country to go.

Remember that Dobson is in bed with our nation's policy-makers. He is not in the FOF business out of charity - it has to do, rather, with getting his agenda for the country to play out. I signed up to receive updates from a local policy group that has Dobson's endorsement on their website, and amounts to a statewide spin-off of FOF (there is one in, I believe, EVERY state), and I've been receiving their fundraising letters. They have declared "war" on the rest of the culture, and now that I've been hearing it for years, I quite believe them that they mean it.

Jen, I do recommend you go read a copy of Mel's new book - there is an extensive discussion of Dobson. He isn't making innocent mistakes. He planned this.

[Jennifer5]

I'm sure you're probably right Zerbie, but when you read this as an outsider just looking at it... it doesn't look good and I'm just saying, I feel it would probably be better if we didn't go negative.... and I'm probably not the one to say and I'm very open to other opinions or anything.


Thank you Zerbie, and I would like to read "Religion Gone Bad" if I can ever get a copy...:love:

[ladyinred]

Apparently Paul Cameron is alive and well and spreading more of his mythology about how gays threaten the foundation of heterosexual marriages and families. His studies claim he as empirical evidence on gays that they are degenerates, disease ridden, mentally unstable,spreading aids throughout society(Aids is a gay disease? As if heterosexuals don't and can't get it?) Also what spreading this type of misinformation through -out the straight community,is the misconception that they can't or don't get aids. It does a diservice to their own, for example if young straight heterosexuals are led to believe that aids is the gay plague, and they are immune to getting it ,they may not use protection and may surpisingly find that they are infected by it. Mr Cameron is venomous to say the least. But why his research should be discredited , is one obvious fact. HE hates gay people. I read where as a child he was molested by a man, so he obviously has an axe to grind with gays. How could his research be based on anything objective in the first place. It's obvious in his hatred and contempt for gay people , he will go out of his way in his research to find the worst to support as what he calls as evidence to their decadence. It should be discredited on that basis alone. His subjective biases have formed his opinions about gays and therefore his research is intended to demonize gays and to show that they are innately evil and therefore must be destroyed.. Any good researcher will want to lay aside prejudices and his own personal judgements to find out objectively what the truth is. This man is not only paranoid, he is a quack, no wonder he was discredited as a researcher.. He is also abnormally obsessed with the gay lifestyle and has even suggested extermination of gays ( Sounds again like Hitler and the jews )Read some of my earlier posts , I had posted where a man had said that pseudo science had helped Hitler in his support to exterminate jews( among some things that were said about Jews is they were disease ridden, destroying Germany's economy,among other things.) I've added Cameron's website because he is currently trying to undermine legislation on gay rights. I will include the website and part of current news on his website -this is part of it......Latest Family Research Report
the website:www.familyresearchinsti.org

Latest Family Research Report

FRR February 2006 – FRI Causing 'Disunity?'

Special from the Editor

Many of you may be wondering why FRI decided to publicly oppose Focus on the Family’s endorsement of a proposed legislative bill (SB 166) in Colorado to grant some of the benefits traditionally reserved for marriage to ‘reciprocal beneficiaries.’ Why have we put out a series of press releases criticizing James Dobson and his position in this matter? Why have we added details of this dispute to our website?

In this issue of Family Research Report, we will attempt to answer these questions and more. Several individuals have contacted us to defend Dr. Dobson and to accuse us of causing ‘disunity’ in the body of Christ. They have suggested that we must put forward a ‘united front’ in the battle against those who would try to destroy marriage. They have also accused us of ruining our own credibility as an organization.

read more...

[ladyinred]

Here is some history on jewish people and their persecution and what I see as similarities with gay people - how they were discriminated against, scapegoated, and denied their civil and basic rights as well. I will just include the website where the article is on, but you will be surprised at the striking similarities of how gay people and jewish people were and are viewed and have been treated.
http://www.adl.org/education/holocaust/holocaust_history.asp

[ladyinred]

Jews were deemed to be people of all sort of decadence and a threat to Germany's culture ,economy , Christianity among other things. What is so surprising is Hitler's outlook shares striking similarities with the religious right agenda and their views...http://www.bedfordgaol.com/part3-2.html

[Giancarlo]

While they cause a lot of hurt for the GLBT community, they are not all bad and they do a lot of good things. They help a lot of people and a lot of families, getting mad about what they say isn't going to fix anything, it's all about understanding and that has to go both ways if we want change. We can't be unreasonable, if we want them to listen, we have to listen to... Dr. Dobson is not a bad guy, but he is also clearly not fully educated on this topic and doesn't understand. So please I ask that we don't get mad and start saying bad things about Focus on the Family... it won't get us anywhere, and saying bad things about other people only makes us look bad.

I am revolted by such comments. How are these people helping a lot of people or a lot of families when their entire belief systems are skewed? How are they helping families when they are ripping them apart? We can't be understanding with social conservatives who seem hell bent on putting their doctrine into government, infringing on the liberties of millions. Dr Dobson not a bad guy? It isn't that these people aren't educated. I usually refer to the quote in my signature. It isn't that these people are extreme... I say go ahead and spew whatever beliefs you want...

It is that they want to put their beliefs into legislation. That's dangerous.

I'm going to say bad things about bad people because I feel they are going to do bad things to my civil rights.

The entire organization of Focus on the Family is fundamentally wrong.

[Zerbie]

Okay let's all chill for a sec' here - Yes, Dobson knows what he's doing and it's on purpose, yes FOF exists to put certain peoples' Biblical interpretations into law. You know you're correct about Dobson and FOF, Giancarlo, and so do I.

But imagine that you were NOT familiar with Dobson and FOF, and then you go to their main website. If you look at their main page, it looks like something good. It looks like nice stuff - how to improve your marriage, relationship skills advice and suggestions - all very pretty. You have to dig deeper to find the agenda - it's not like going to the main webpage of, say, Traditional Values Coalition, which practically drips green slime across your computer monitor.

So let's please try not to use harsh language against our own, here. Our Jen is one of the sweetest, kindest, most supportive people on this forum, and wise beyond her years. She wants to extend charity and loving-kindness to everyone she meets. :love: It's her gift.

[Dash]

I've struggled myself with that one nonviolent credo (http://www.soulforce.org/article/679) to which Soulforce is committed that says:

I believe that my adversary is also a child of the Creator, that we are both members of the same human family, that we are sisters and brothers in need of reconciliation.

I believe that my adversary is not my enemy, but a victim of misinformation as I have been.

I believe that my only task is to bring my adversary truth in love (nonviolence) relentlessly.

I believe that my adversary's motives are as pure as mine and of no relevance to our discussion.

I believe that even my worst adversary has an amazing potential for positive change.

I believe that my adversary may have an insight into truth that I do not have.

I believe that one day my adversary and I will understand each other and that if we conduct our search for truth guided by the principles of love, we will find a new position to satisfy us both.

It's the point about motives that trips me up sometimes. Last night for example (or two nights ago...i don't know) I stopped byRandy Thomas' blog...almost never go there. If you don't know, Randy Thomas is a spokesperson for Exodus International and promotes all of their viewpoints which are frustratingly misleading. Randy...as much as I disagree with him...is a nice guy. When I read what he has to say, I recognize myself. I was once a fundamentalist. I know how they think and I recognize their "voice." I know (and I can't emphasize this enough) I know he's a good guy. If he's not a good guy, then I never was when I was a fundamentalist fighting my own sexuality. He's nice. He's sweet. And I am utterly and completely opposed to his message.

It is the hardest thing in the world for me to leave questions of character and motivation out of my opposition to these my "challengers" (did tdogg first provide that word here or was it someone else?...I love it!). Giancarlo's passion is mine too! And I want to own Jen's compassion for those who oppress us! Socrates said that those who do harm suffer more than their victims, which is both my inspiration to avoid harming my opponents as well as my motivation for compassion.

But it's not easy...

[Giancarlo]

I do not believe in violence against them. I honestly think that these conservative fundamentalists can change their beliefs. They are deluded. I just think that people like Dobson and Robertson are a danger to democracy. Exodus International in my opinion should be shut down because it brainwashes people. It drives people to suicide. Basta ya.

I do see what SoulForce is committed too, and I agree with most of it. However there is one thing I cannot agree with at all:

"I believe that my adversary may have an insight into truth that I do not have."

What insight do these conservatives have?

[Jennifer5]

Insight... I think that there is a lot of opinion probably involved here.

But I feel that I can never expect them to understand and know what I'm saying if I can't understand them and know what they are saying. The way I see it unconditional love and understanding are they only way to ever make any progress, after all we can't just sit here and say that they're wrong and we're right... because that's what they're doing, and it get us know where.

One of my favorite quotes...

Two people with different belief systems meet at a point which is truth.
I don't have the slightest idea where I heard that, but I feel that there is a lot of truth behind it.:)

[Dash]

I do see what SoulForce is committed too, and I agree with most of it. However there is one thing I cannot agree with at all:

"I believe that my adversary may have an insight into truth that I do not have."

What insight do these conservatives have?

I hear you. Sometimes I can't imagine that they have any insight...especially in the area of my life or love. First, though, I think it's okay to remember that sentence says "may have an insight". :lol: They may not! But if I'm not open to whatever wisdom they may have, what I'm really shutting out is Wisdom itself...that Spirit or Voice that sometimes speaks through me, but often through people and circumstances through which I'd least expect it.

Think about this: that Spirit has put certain truths that our anti-gay religious adversaries desperately need to hear in the mouths of those whom they are most reluctant to trust or believe. That Spirit has a way of doing that again and again in many situations. I don't know why that is, but if I shut myself off from the chance that conservatives may have an insight that I don't, I risk missing something important. I also am not really being open to them or loving them if I say in my heart that they are incapable of understanding or having insight.

I also have to remember that I was one of those fundamentalists. I used to hate myself as a person struggling with his sexuality. It was... now get this... it was Pat Robertson's conservative co-host of the 700 Club that convinced me that God loved me. That was an insight that I did not have at the time. Watching that show in the early nineties was just the beginning of my journey to wholeness, and yes, it led me far from where the 700 Club might wish me to go, but nonetheless...that was the mouthpiece chosen to impart this important knowledge to me.

[Jennifer5]

What a weird and unexpected twist that is... amazing Dash:love: ....you've sure come a long way form there.:)

[Giancarlo]

Insight... I think that there is a lot of opinion probably involved here.

But I feel that I can never expect them to understand and know what I'm saying if I can't understand them and know what they are saying. The way I see it unconditional love and understanding are they only way to ever make any progress, after all we can't just sit here and say that they're wrong and we're right... because that's what they're doing, and it get us know where.

One of my favorite quotes...

Two people with different belief systems meet at a point which is truth.
I don't have the slightest idea where I heard that, but I feel that there is a lot of truth behind it.:)

I do not make compromises on my beliefs because the one thing I ask for is equal rights. I do not think I can compromise when it comes to my civil rights. I believe in a strong unwavering democratic tradition, and the religious right in this country do not.

I'm not christian. Nonetheless, I'm saying rather than compromising... we should understand their viewpoints. Sun Tzu is an ancient Chinese philosopher who suggested that one should understand how their foes work. This doesn't mean accept their view points, or accept that they have a valid viewpoint, but rather focus on undermining them in any way possible.

This may come off as harsh or somethings rather extreme on my own part, but I do not see compromise or negotiation as a possibility with these religious conservatives because they only want one thing. That one thing they want is a religious theocratic state and they would not stop until they achieve just that.

[Jennifer5]

I do not make compromises on my beliefs because the one thing I ask for is equal rights. I do not think I can compromise when it comes to my civil rights. I believe in a strong unwavering democratic tradition, and the religious right in this country do not.

I'm not christian. I'm saying rather than compromising... we should understand their viewpoints. Sun Tzu is an ancient Chinese philosopher who suggested that one should understand how their foes work. This doesn't mean accept their view points, or accept that they have a valid viewpoint, but rather focus on undermining them in any way possible.

In my opinion that's your lose then, because I feel that every individual has something to offer us if we just stop and listen. I don't feel that we'll get anywhere undermining people. Understand them, their good qualities and bad, then follow the good and learn from the bad, but don't call them less of a person for having them. We all have flaws, the point is to recognize them and move on. We can't judge them for being human, but we can work together to learn from each other.:love:

[kara speltz]

In my opinion that's your lose then, because I feel that every individual has something to offer us if we just stop and listen. I don't feel that we'll get anywhere undermining people. Understand them, their good qualities and bad, then follow the good and learn from the bad, but don't call them less of a person for having them. We all have flaws, the point is to recognize them and move on. We can't judge them for being human, but we can work together to learn from each other.:love:

Dear Jennifer: That is indeed the essence of nonviolence, and it's a hard one to come to grips with, but it is one that anyone who strives to be nonviolent must struggle with. It is hard to see where someone like Bush has any truth to teach me, but as a child of God, he clearly must have.

During the Equality Ride while we were in Abilene I had a chance to spend an hour with an exgay. Now I have to acknowledge that in the past whenever someone has identified themselves as exgay - a little fence goes up and I say to myself - not exgay simply suppressing their gayness.

After an hour with Sally, I could honestly say, that I had changed my perspective. I still believe most exgays are suppressing, but I could also celebrate that for Sally her being gay had separated her from God. I acknowledged that to her and asked her if she could possibly recognize that my being gay bound me closer to God - it did not separate me.

She couldn't acknowledge it (at least out loud) but for me the moment of reconcilliation happened because I could see her truth.

kara

[tdogg]

At the very least by understanding those who oppose us, we can reinforce why we believe what we do. It's hard to accept that those who are so against me can possibly have opinions or beliefs that are as valid as mine - but they do. It's relative, their opinions and beliefs are their reality, as mine is my own. I agree that they likely won't convince me, and I probably won't convince them, but if we could meet in the middle somewhere in the understanding process, that's progress. It doesn't mean I can't fight for my equal rights, it doesn't mean that I have to agree with their beliefs. It only means that, like Jennifer says, I need to understand their beliefs are valid to them and it's possible they will have something to teach me by it. It's really not an easy place to be, which is why often it's a lifetime learning opportunity and maturing process.

Jennifer, it's really amazing that you can hold the view you have at such a young age. Just a testament to your maturity level. By the way, how is the home work going??? :D

[Giancarlo]

In my opinion that's your lose then, because I feel that every individual has something to offer us if we just stop and listen. I don't feel that we'll get anywhere undermining people. Understand them, their good qualities and bad, then follow the good and learn from the bad, but don't call them less of a person for having them. We all have flaws, the point is to recognize them and move on. We can't judge them for being human, but we can work together to learn from each other.:love:

If we do not undermine them and stop them, they'll put their beliefs into government. That'll infringe on my civil rights. That I cannot allow.

[kara speltz]

If we do not undermine them and stop them, they'll put their beliefs into government. That'll infringe on my civil rights. That I cannot allow.

you are confusing nonviolence with doing nothing. The most powerful force in the world is nonviolence. Gandhi and King both proved that. When we demonize someone else, we start the process of violence. When we help someone understand, we stop the fear and the violence.

[kara speltz]

Jennifer, it's really amazing that you can hold the view you have at such a young age. Just a testament to your maturity level. By the way, how is the home work going??? :D

This quote piqued my interest, so I just had to go check your profile Jennifer and I was totally blown away. You are the same age as my grand daughter who is very, very bright, but clearly does not have the comprehension you have. You are obviously a very old soul in a very young body. I honor you for your amazing wisdom. kara

[Jennifer5]

If we do not undermine them and stop them, they'll put their beliefs into government. That'll infringe on my civil rights. That I cannot allow. ....and that too can be an opinion, and I respect that you feel that way, but I can't say I'll agree.


Thank you Kara and Tdogg...

Tdogg... thanks for asking, the school work/home work is well not going very well actually, but I'll figure it out.

Kara... thanks but believe me I'm not nearly as mature as it sounds, if you don't remember at the cook-out that Friday in Colorado I was chasing my sister around with ice, before putting down her back...:lol: ...this stuff just works for me...

[Jennifer5]

Oh, I never put it together that we'd met in Colorado - what fun. And never the less, I'm still impressed. And never forget that Jesus said, unless we be as little children.....
Completely understandable... a lot of people there, and thanks:)

[Giancarlo]

you are confusing nonviolence with doing nothing. The most powerful force in the world is nonviolence. Gandhi and King both proved that. When we demonize someone else, we start the process of violence. When we help someone understand, we stop the fear and the violence.

I am? When did I say that? I am going to criticize because that is my right. I am not using violence. If I undermine someones beliefs I am not using violence. The world isn't black and white like that.

It is obvious the christian right in this country wants to transform this country into a theocracy.

[Huggins293]

:love: And even though they may not change their minds, there aren't the derogatory remarks that go on..or the arguments or accusations back and forth. I really defeated my purpose back then. Like I pointed out to one gentlemen because we talk about other things and issues as well. "Well I know you are a sincere Christian but I just don't see it that way." And while I may disagree with you about this, I'm not trying to insult or offend you, this is just something we don't see eye to eye on.

I have made the same mistakes as well. What changed me is that these heterosexists on these forums are no different than heterosexists I know and love in person. They are part of my family, they are my friends, they are my loyal co-workers. Why should I abuse my sense of fearlessness and allow my anger to degenerate opinions represenative of all the people I stated. It is hypocritial in a sense to use gentle arguments in public but use bolder arguments simply because I see no repercussion.

Our heterosexists brothers and sisters are extremely misguided and although some of their harsh attitudes are motivated out of love, they are unjustly imposing harm upon a group of people when it is not neccessary.

[Huggins293]

While I understand what everyone is saying about Focus on the Family, I have to ask that we take a time out and look at them....

While they cause a lot of hurt for the GLBT community, they are not all bad and they do a lot of good things. They help a lot of people and a lot of families, getting mad about what they say isn't going to fix anything, it's all about understanding and that has to go both ways if we want change. We can't be unreasonable, if we want them to listen, we have to listen to... Dr. Dobson is not a bad guy, but he is also clearly not fully educated on this topic and doesn't understand. So please I ask that we don't get mad and start saying bad things about Focus on the Family... it won't get us anywhere, and saying bad things about other people only makes us look bad.
I agree. Many of us love people who share his views. The cancer of heterosexism has such a stronghold on his mentality, that he can not see the harm he is inflicting.

[kara speltz]

Our heterosexists brothers and sisters are extremely misguided and although some of their harsh attitudes are motivated out of love, they are unjustly imposing harm upon a group of people when it is not neccessary.

One of the most important lessons I've learned from Soulforce is that demonizing is the first step of violence. We've all been mistaken at times. I would even venture to guess that most of us have even held racist view points in the past, that we've had to deal with. I do believe that the vast majority of the human race act sincerely and simply need to hear in a loving way our understanding of the truth.

I was recently at a Catholic Worker gathering where a very sincere woman asked me, after I told her I was a gay rights activist, "Surely you don't condone the practice?" I replied that God blessed our love just as God blessed hers. Later I was able to share with her, that while I knew she didn't mean to be hurtful, it was very arrogant and came out a heterosexist privelege that assumed superiority. When I made a comparison to white skin privelege in her life, I could see she was visibly shaken. We continued this conversation throughout the conference. I believe she returned home with a different view. She thought she'd never met a gay person before, and as an out gay who committed my life to service, she had to confront all of her stereotypes.

Kara

[marutidas]

First I would like to say,
I am humbled to encounter such wisdom.
With closed palms, I bow to the divinity within you all.:pray:

Giancarlo, I am not a Christian either, if I were to call myself anything, I am a Hindu-Buddhist and I don't for the reason it leaves out so much about myself and I am seperating myself from others by doing that, but I still believe that Christianity has many lessons to offer. I go to a Catholic church, mainly because I like the priest and the people there, his sermines are very practicle, If Jesus was for anything it was helping the poor and the sick and most importantly, loving your fellow human being.

I know its not always to love or forgive those who hate you, but if you do not learn to forgive, your hatred of them will comsume you. I am not saying that you should not stand up for you believe, I am saying, at least forgive them for your sake.

While I am saddened by what many Conservitive Christians say about us, they are still first and foremost human beings. We are all human beings first, and our religion and identity is secondary.Maybe instead of drawing the line in the sand, it would be good to find some common ground.
My greatest weapon is not using harsh words, but simple truth

[Giancarlo]

Giancarlo, I am not a Christian either, if I were to call myself anything, I am a Hindu-Buddhist and I don't for the reason it leaves out so much about myself and I am seperating myself from others by doing that, but I still believe that Christianity has many lessons to offer. I go to a Catholic church, mainly because I like the priest and the people there, his sermines are very practicle, If Jesus was for anything it was helping the poor and the sick and most importantly, loving your fellow human being.

I'm not religious at all. I am considered atheist. I find lessons in life, not religion. I am separating myself from religion, not from people.

I know its not always to love or forgive those who hate you, but if you do not learn to forgive, your hatred of them will comsume you. I am not saying that you should not stand up for you believe, I am saying, at least forgive them for your sake.

I'm not going to forgive people who actively seek to diminish my civil rights. That's incredibly dangerous. Argentina did that with a general amnesty of military generals from the dirty war period. I don't think you can forgive those who commit crimes against democracy.

While I am saddened by what many Conservitive Christians say about us, they are still first and foremost human beings. We are all human beings first, and our religion and identity is secondary.Maybe instead of drawing the line in the sand, it would be good to find some common ground.
My greatest weapon is not using harsh words, but simple truth

I am not talking about putting them in jail or anything, or silencing them. But I'm talking about reducing their power in this country. They need to be stopped or else we can expect a religious fundamentalist state. If a fundamentalist state would occur, I would take up arms.

[kara speltz]

They need to be stopped or else we can expect a religious fundamentalist state. If a fundamentalist state would occur, I would take up arms.

Dear Giancarlo: The piece of this puzzle of nonviolence that it seems to me that you do not comprehend yet, is that violence really solves nothing, it only perpetuates the divisions. And the core truth of nonviolence is the need to change ourselves first. Gandhi said it very clearly, "we must become the change we seek." He required that his followers be believers, not in Hindu, but in the divine, I suspect because nonviolence, as I comprehend it, is not a human trait, but a divine trait. I am capable of loving those who hate me, not because of something I've done, but because I am open to the creative capacity of the divine spirit within me to love in the midst of suffering.

Kara

[Giancarlo]

Dear Giancarlo: The piece of this puzzle of nonviolence that it seems to me that you do not comprehend yet, is that violence really solves nothing, it only perpetuates the divisions. And the core truth of nonviolence is the need to change ourselves first. Gandhi said it very clearly, "we must become the change we seek." He required that his followers be believers, not in Hindu, but in the divine, I suspect because nonviolence, as I comprehend it, is not a human trait, but a divine trait. I am capable of loving those who hate me, not because of something I've done, but because I am open to the creative capacity of the divine spirit within me to love in the midst of suffering.

Kara

This is misguided thinking. IF anything, India's independence from Britain was only attained by guerrilla warfare. Gandhi had very little to do with these rebel groups that put enormous amounts of strain on the British imperial army. It was mostly these rebel groups that attained independence. Another example of this is that the late dictator of Romania Nicholae Ceaucesu was pushed out by civil strife.

By the way, I believe non-violence is strictly a human trait, and I do believe it is important. However, when we are pushed into a corner by a violent state then there must be an armed insurrection. I would never concede to a religious state, nor would I ever compromise with one.

[kara speltz]

This is misguided thinking. IF anything, India's independence from Britain was only attained by guerrilla warfare. Gandhi had very little to do with these rebel groups that put enormous amounts of strain on the British imperial army. .

Fascinating, you've rewritten history now????? Yes in every nonviolent struggle there has always been those who resort to violence. I highly recommend you see a "A Force More Powerful." It's a two set video that shows the overall history of nonviolence. It is only when people finally come to understand that all governments rule with our consent, and refuse to consent any longer that true revolutions happen.

[Giancarlo]

Fascinating, you've rewritten history now????? Yes in every nonviolent struggle there has always been those who resort to violence. I highly recommend you see a "A Force More Powerful." It's a two set video that shows the overall history of nonviolence. It is only when people finally come to understand that all governments rule with our concent, and refuse to consent any longer that true revolutions happen.

That's a grave accusation. You should not accuse people of history revisionism if you don't know what you're talking about. In India, there were powerful rebel movements against British colonial rule. Many oppressive governments have went down through violent means. Romania, the British colonial government in its colonies, the French colonial governments throughout Africa... or how about the Battle of Dien Bien Phu? Or if we go back to the 1940s, how about the war against the Axis Powers?

I didn't rewrite history. I only state the facts.

[marutidas]

This post I am coming to you not as a Hindu, but as a human being talking to another.
I know that every religion has some kind of conflict on its hands, none are without blame, I know that religious passions are the is most dangerous kind of passion.
But I will still say that there is good that comes from faith, most of the religios violence comes from people placeing to much impoertance on an institution, calling it infalable.
even if it is, we must never make the mistake that our understanding of it is. They do not build there own reliationship with their faith and many take everything at face value.
I am not trying to convert you, or to corerce you into anything you don't believe.
I am not saying that you should not stand up and voice you opinion.
All I want you to do is consider the following

But there are many kinds of violence including verbal. Many conservitive christians do use very negative things against us. But what would happen if we to start using the methods they use, we would no longer be non violent, violence extends to much more than just physical. Verbal abuse (propoganda) is the instigator of many physical and very tragic conflicts. I am not saying to forget any of the sufferings they may have put you or anyone you know through.
But forgiving someone is not just a religious thing. If you can you forgive your greatest enemy, you will be free from all of the suffering they could ever inflict on you. I know this sounds totally of the wall, but if you forgive them you will be free from hate, you find ease in helping others, if that is truely you goal, You would be able to put all you energy in to cutting at the root of the problem. I suggest you read Religion Gone Bad. It talks about all the major conservitives in the country and the dangers of fundamentalism. More importantly it talks of actual non violent means of helping fight fundamentalism. But you will not read one time were Mel White says he hates them.

I am sorry, but you will not find anyone on this site who will join you in demonizing anyone Conservitive, Religious or not. I hope that you can come back and post again. I have read many of you post, you have great ability at research, please use those skills to futher aid to GLBT people.
May you find peace in your heart,
---Marutidas:pray:

[Giancarlo]

I at no point advocated using violence against my opponents. I advocate criticizing them because that is my freedom. I advocate constructive criticism to reduce their power amongst the population. I advocate conveying a convincing message to the people.