Evangelical Leader Steps Down in Alleged Gay Affair [Archive]

Jamie McDaniel

11-02-2006, 10:51 PM

I was just about to go see the movie Jesus Camp, in which Ted Haggard appears. Here is a clip of Pastor Haggard talking about homosexuality from the film Jesus Camp on YouTube, though I don't know how long it will be there before they pull it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6rSjrBhUIA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6rSjrBhUIA)

Here is an interesting piece from a September 2006 article in the Colorado Springs Independent (http://csindy.com/csindy/2006-09-07/cover.html):

Haggard, for instance, has called on fellow evangelicals to protect the environment, and to work against poverty and racism — priorities that scarcely make a blip on James Dobson's radar screen.

Dobson and Haggard also part ways over same-sex marriage. Focus on the Family strongly opposes any legal recognition of gay couples.

While Haggard supports federal and state constitutional amendments that limit marriage to a man and a woman, he's more measured in his view of domestic partnerships.

"If the state wants to provide people who are in a different type of relationship the same benefits as marriage, that's up to the community," he says. "As a Christian, I would be hesitant to do anything that would deny people medical insurance or the ability to visit their partner in a hospital."

Haggard agrees with Lawrence v. Texas, the 2003 Supreme Court decision that struck down anti-sodomy laws and, unlike Dobson, is generally cautious about codifying religious teaching in law.

"We believe within the church that sexuality should be only between a married man and a woman," Haggard says. "But there are many things that I teach in the church that I would never want integrated into civil law."

NathanATX

11-03-2006, 12:51 AM

Thanks for the youtube video, Jamie. I posted it and another one on my blog. http://blog.myspace.com/nathanatx

BruceChris

11-03-2006, 03:45 AM

But the closet, combined with conservative Evangelicalism, is extreemly toxic, and for all of us.

Hey, gang, it's 3:30 in the morning, and this is about all I can do for now. Sorry. And when I get up, I'm gonna go on a Get Out The Vote gig about 400 miles from here. (I really oughtta spend my nights sleeping, and not listening to the BBC, and brooding on the state of the world)

Peace, Love, and rarely, the occasional party animal, Bruce Chris

Daniel

11-03-2006, 04:58 AM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-dicker/pastor-ted-haggardout-_b_33145.html

Based on the scant evidence that's been released, my thinking is this: If you're perpetrating a fictional smear, why not go after a fervently anti-gay figure? There's no shortage to choose from in this state. Why choose a Pastor who, however well known, isn't really as bad as Gary Bauer, James Dobson, Rick Santorum, etc... I mean, if you're going to lie you've got your choice of targets. Why this one?

If this turns out true, it will be hypocricy that brings Pastor Haggard down, won't it?

Strangely enough, I have been reading Richard Dawkin's book (The God Delusion) and recently saw his program on UTube in which Haggard appears (it's a British program that will probably never appear on this side of the Atlantic- too controversial). The latter comes across as a devout creationist. Don't know what to make of all of this yet except to observe that, if true, it will point- yet again- out that sexual energy has a life of it's own: It can't be so easily controlled. It likes to have it's day.

Addendum:

Found this and thought it worth sharing here- it's from http://www.thoughttheater.com/.

If Jesus was to be our example, then I don't understand this thing we now call Christian values. Pastor Haggard may believe that he speaks for God but his actions suggest that he merely fears his own humanity. Further, if the values he espouses exist to demonstrate his faith in the God he knows, then the God he knows must have already seen this element of his humanity that he cannot personally accept...which would mean that any true God has already accepted that which we humans won't and would also prove that the God Haggard purports to represent is not a real God but a God of his own creation designed to serve his flawed view of the human condition.

In the end, we aren't going to solve the conflict in Iraq or the Palestinian issue or same-sex marriage or any number of current issues by attempting to hide our wholly human frailties. The politics of division is merely a symptom of our refusal to focus on our humanity and the need to understand it rather than demonize it. It would be easy to gloat at the demise of Ted Haggard but that would only serve my demons. In my idyllic world, the fall of men like Ted Haggard would illuminate our shared humanity and serve to end the divisions we seem driven to embrace. That's the version of Christian values I could support.

Jamie McDaniel

11-03-2006, 06:02 AM

Rev. Ross Parsley, who is serving as Acting Senior Pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church, is stating that Rev. Ted Haggard has now admitted to some of the accusations against him.

www.kcra.com/news/10231452/detail.html (http://www.kcra.com/news/10231452/detail.html)

Last night, Haggard told CNN that "I do not know Mike Jones."

CNN Interview (http://www.cnn.com/video/partners/clickability/index.html?url=/video/us/2006/11/02/sot.haggard.response.kusa)

aftercomingout

11-03-2006, 07:01 AM

If this really turns out to be true. I wonder what George Bush's comment is about this... :shield: They say that Ted Haggard is a very close friend of Bush... Even meeting people from the White House weekly?? :inspector:

BruceChris

11-03-2006, 08:20 AM

To utterly shamelessly mix my metaphores,

It is obvious that even one of the 800 pound gorillas of the religious right is far from having the intestinal fortitude to take on the elephant in his own living room.

And we must remember that Ted Haggard not "is", but was a friend of George Bush. (And please, don't say that too loud!) Hypocracy, like homosexuality, is said to be comething that you can CATCH, if you're not careful.

Peace, but not much love here. I need to mellow out. Bruce Chris

NathanATX

11-03-2006, 08:32 AM

Video on www.crooksandliars.com

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Haggard-Scandal.wmv

NathanATX

11-03-2006, 08:39 AM

Oh brother...

Watch the full interview that News 9 did...
http://www.9news.com/includes/buildasx.aspx?fn=http://wm.kusa.gannett.edgestreams.net/news/1162492292923-11-02-06-HaggardIntvu-full.wmv&sp=http://wm.kusa.gannett.edgestreams.net/ads/sales/pre-stream/elite-may06.wmv

Watch his eyes when she asks him if he knows the escort...

And a nice little dig on "the homosexual prostitute's" credibility towards the end...

ARARAADGASDGHASASDJASDHHHHHHHHHH....

He denies saying anything that could be perceived as mean, hateful, etc. to gay people!!!!!!!!!!

Apparently, if he's shaking his head "no," then he's lying.

keltic63

11-03-2006, 08:52 AM

Oh brother...

Watch his eyes when she asks him if he knows the escort...

ya know.....I watched an interview this morning before I came to work, and when the question about the escort was asked, I thought the same thing. :o

NathanATX

11-03-2006, 09:12 AM

MP3 podcast of the radio show where Mike Jones tells his story about his relationship with Evangelist Ted Haggard.

November 1
"Paul" tells Pete about his relationship with an evangelical minister
http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KHOW-AM/1101PETE6A.mp3

continued...
http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KHOW-AM/1101PETE7A.mp3

More on the gay male escort...
http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KHOW-AM/1101PETE8A.mp3

November 2
Radio show Pete sets the stage for Mike Jones and takes calls...
http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KHOW-AM/1102PETE6A.mp3

Mike Jones joins Pete and discusses the story...
http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KHOW-AM/1102PETE7A.mp3

The story continues...
http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KHOW-AM/1102PETE8A.mp3

Jamie McDaniel

11-03-2006, 09:41 AM

Nathan, I'm listening to the 630 KHOW Talk Radio programs you posted. They are truly fascinating (well, in that tragic way of gays in high profile anti-gay positions living lies and truth coming out.)

On the second one under Nov. 2, Mike Jones is sharing how he first found out who Ted Haggard was. He was watching the history channel and suddenly there was "Art". He was so floored, he didn't catch his real name at that time. Mike shares he really struggled with bringing this news forward.

NathanATX

11-03-2006, 09:48 AM

I am really impressed by Mike.

erubre

11-03-2006, 10:05 AM

Many years ago I began preparation for the ministry at one of the best known conservative/fundamentalist schools and later served on the staff there for a number of years - in the department of Dean of Students. I met and got to know thousands of students and hundreds of staff. I observed them while at the school and at other settings. About eight years of experience there. The sumary of my observation leads me to believe that many people who strike out against homosexuality and shout the loudest against gay interests do so as a shield to deflect from their own hidden homosexual tendencies. It is my opinion that few of those who appear to hold to conservative or fundamentalist " so-called-Christian" views actually seriously believe what they say. Rather, their main concern is for power and money.

Steven E. Webster

11-03-2006, 10:20 AM

Here's Andrew's take on this developing story:

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/11/confirmed.html

Steven E. Webster

NathanATX

11-03-2006, 02:35 PM

Mike Jones failed part of the polygraph. Haggard is "pleased."

more info & video on my blog... http://blog.myspace.com/nathanatx

Steven E. Webster

11-03-2006, 03:02 PM

Giancarlo

11-03-2006, 03:14 PM

Wew! What a relief!

Haggard has cleared up everything. He only bought the meth from the gay prostitute--he didn't use it. Oh, and the gay prostitute--he only gave Haggard a massage.

Here's the link:

http://www.newswatch50.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=FAC7122C-CC2D-49F0-A02E-27B7E1F8D812

Steven E. Webster (being ironic)

First he said he didn't do anything and didn't pay a prostitute. Then he says he he did but only got a massage and brought drugs... what next? I really don't think this guy is telling the whole story. I do think they did have sex. I can see a lie when there is one... and I think he's still lying (or at least employing half truths).

Ironic indeed. :)

keltic63

11-03-2006, 04:49 PM

Jamie McDaniel

11-03-2006, 04:53 PM

Remember, Dobson has had some experience with this when ex-gay John Paulk told him he only ventured into a gay bar while on a business trip to DC to use the bathroom. Still, I think Dobson was caught by complete surprise on this one. Compare the reaction when the allegations first came forward with today's statement.

Dobson on Thursday:
"It is unconscionable that the legitimate news media would report a rumor like this based on nothing but one man's accusation. Ted Haggard is a friend of mine and it appears someone is trying to damage his reputation as a way of influencing the outcome of Tuesday's election -- especially the vote on Colorado's marriage-protection amendment -- which Ted strongly supports.

"He has shown a great deal of grace under these unfortunate circumstances, quickly turning this matter over to his church for an independent investigation. That is a testament to the character I have seen him exhibit over and over again through the years."

Dobson on Friday:
"All of us at Focus on the Family are heartsick over the allegation, not yet confirmed, that Ted has had a private life with a homosexual for several years. We will await the outcome of this story, but the possibility that an illicit relationship has occurred is alarming to us and to millions of others.

"Ted has been my close friend and colleague for many years. He has been used mightily to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Colorado Springs and around the world. He will continue to be my friend, even if the worst allegations prove accurate. Nevertheless, sexual sin, whether homosexual or heterosexual, has serious consequences and we are extremely concerned for Ted, his family and his church.

"We ask that the Focus on the Family constituency and Christians everywhere pray for Ted and his loved ones. Our hearts go out to all of them. Perhaps the allegations are false and the circumstances are not as we have heard. Either way, the situation has grave implications for the Cause of Christ and we ask for the Lord's guidance and blessings in the days ahead."

1. http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=75600

2. http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2006/1103/20061103_010036_Focus.pdf

dewdrop_world

11-03-2006, 05:04 PM

NathanATX

11-03-2006, 05:05 PM

The Consequences of Bad Decisions Can be Minimized...Through Obedience - Pastor Ted Haggard
Sunday Sep 3, 2006 - 11:00 am

http://video.newlifechurch.org/nlc/Sunday_The_Consequences_of_Bad_Decisions_Can_be_Mi nimized_Through_Obedience.mp3

NathanATX

11-03-2006, 05:07 PM

Giancarlo

11-03-2006, 05:17 PM

where are the people who analyze behavior???? aren't there "tells" that indicate a person may be lying?

I am reminded of Bill Clinton.....I didn't inhale!

so why order a massage from a gay prostitute? wouldn't there be a certified masseus available for legitimate massages?

Why not get a massage from his wife?

I think he is hiding something. I may not be a qualified psychoanalyst, but I really think he is hiding something. I personally believe it did go further then just a massage when he was with the male prostitute.

keltic63

11-03-2006, 07:04 PM

I don't think the whole story is out there yet. What do we gain from pouncing on as yet unsubstantiated rumors so quickly as if they were fact?

For myself, I have no doubt that Haggard is hiding something, but what it is, I'm not sure.

I also feel I should avoid the temptation to indulge in a bit of Schadenfreude -- "Oh looky, another minister exposed in a lie." He and his family are hurting now, and I'd like to be concerned for them as my first response (I only almost made it to that point this time), rather than use their misfortune to make a point.

James

I think the response to this event is very different from the lgbt community's response to Lonnie Latham. I have seen attempts in this thread, and others, to keep from "pouncing" on the guy. I know that in my first post in this thread, I tried to look at both the accused and the accuser, and make some sort of statement about the sadness of it if the allegations are true, as well as cautioning that the accuser would not make a "credible" witnes if appearing in court.
I think that many who have posted in this thread have made honorable attempts to report and comment on what is known, not what is conjecture.

shadomoon

11-03-2006, 07:17 PM

My partner and I were talking last night and she said that she thinks this whole thing is coming from within the Fundie community.

Haggard is quoted as saying "If the state wants to provide people who are in a different type of relationship the same benefits as marriage, that's up to the community," he says. "As a Christian, I would be hesitant to do anything that would deny people medical insurance or the ability to visit their partner in a hospital."

This flies in the face of dominionism and others who are very much against glbt people even 'existing'. So her thoughts, and now mine, as we watch this is who is the quietest. I personally find the timing kind of interesting as well....what better way to irk a bunch of fundies and get them to the polls than to have them take action on their hate through how they vote.

All in all, I believe we should pray for Mr. Haggard and his wife, if he is gay, he is going to be going through some diffifult things and so is his wife. If he isn't and this is all a fraud, I pray that he has courage to forgive.

Your thoughts?

Emproph

11-03-2006, 07:37 PM

Watch the full interview that News 9 did...
http://www.9news.com/includes/buildasx.aspx?fn=http://wm.kusa.gannett.edgestreams.net/news/1162492292923-11-02-06-HaggardIntvu-full.wmv&sp=http://wm.kusa.gannett.edgestreams.net/ads/sales/pre-stream/elite-may06.wmv

Watch his eyes when she asks him if he knows the escort...

Apparently, if he's shaking his head "no," then he's lying.
The reporter only asked him a handful of questions. I think he went on way too long for someone who supposedly knew so little about the situation. Obviously we know more now, but that’s one thing I’ve noticed when people lie sometimes, they continue to explain themselves beyond what is necessary. What’s that part in the Bible, something about don’t swear that your word is true, let your answer stand on its own?

But I wanted to point something else out related to what he said toward the middle of that interview:
...I don’t know if this has anything to do with that, but that was the first thing that crossed my mind. I thought, here we are in an election cycle and people are pulling out the guns, and we know that because of some of the books that have been published about evangelicals in the White House that have just come out...And so actually when I first heard this, I thought, election year politics...

...and what did you say his name was?
From David kuo’s Tempting Faith, Pages 170,171:
While we handled the “soft” compassion issues, Rove’s Public Liaison office had a religious outreach team in constant contact with evangelical and social conservative groups about every facet of the president’s policy and political agenda...

...They held weekly – or more often, as necessary – conference calls... Regulars on the call were Tom Minnery...Focus on the Family; Ted Haggard, paster of New Life Church in Colorado Springs and head of the National Association of Evangelicals...Ken Connor, then head of the Family Research Council... He mentions several others and then in the next paragraph:This network of people covered virtually every area of evangelical Christianity...Talking points were distributed and advice was solicited. That advice rarely went much further than the conference call.
Not to get off on a tangent, I just wanted to clarify that portion of his relationship with the White House. Well - supposed relationship, lest I be accused of believing everything I read...

keltic63

11-03-2006, 07:40 PM

All in all, I believe we should pray for Mr. Haggard and his wife, if he is gay, he is going to be going through some diffifult things and so is his wife. If he isn't and this is all a fraud, I pray that he has courage to forgive.

Your thoughts?

when the story broke, I immediately thought about the way his life would play out, if the allegations were true, and if he indeed is gay. Either scenario looked bleak to me.
a) He confesses to the tryst, makes a big apology, repents, and enters reparative therapy. (do I need to go on about how sad that would be?) He returns to ministry either as the poster boy for ex-gay ministries, or to a lackluster preaching position (kinda like Swaggart)
b) he comes out as a gay man, realizing that all his current friends and associates will no longer speak to him; he will lose his wife, perhaps his kids (although that isn't necessary) and seeing all the damage his ministry has caused to the gay community, he won't be welcomed with open arms.
There's a lot of heartache ahead, for a lot of people. I think the best thing he could do is tell the truth, completely, and the sooner, the better.
All of the previous statement is based on the assumption that Haggard is gay. If not, and the allegations are a lie, then the escort needs to be taken to task for it.

Emproph

11-03-2006, 08:08 PM

I personally find the timing kind of interesting as well....what better way to irk a bunch of fundies and get them to the polls than to have them take action on their hate through how they vote. I see the logic behind it and I wouldn't necessarily put it past them, but I don't think they'd do it so openly or risk it this close to an election.

Esther Kaplan, author of “With God On Their Side: George W. Bush and the Christian Right,” just made an interesting observation on Countdown a few minutes ago:
...I guess what we’re beginning to see is that the Christian Right is wrong on homosexuality. I guess you can’t just decide not to be gay. I would trust that Ted Haggard would very much want not to be gay if he could not be, or to not be tangled up with this escort. But clearly there’s something more innate going on that the Christian right has been denying for a long time...

And just think, Focus on the Family's Love Won Out Conference is tomorrow in Georgia.

Emproph

11-03-2006, 08:50 PM

In New Life Church's podcast (http://video.newlifechurch.org/nlc/061029-090000-Ted_Haggard-Prepare_the_Way_for_God_to_Choose_You.mp3) of the October 29 sermon, among Haggard's first words are, "Father, give us grace and mercy. Father, help us this next week and a half as we go into national elections, and Lord we pray for our country. Father, we pray that lies would be exposed. We pray that deception would be exposed. Father, we pray that wisdom would come upon our electorate and that they would think with clarity and with decisiveness, and Lord, that we would be a model for the whole world to see how people can disagree passionately but the rule of law … will prevail."
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/novemberweb-only/144-54.0.html

Jim's got more commentary at Box turtle, he's always pretty balanced.
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/

Blossom

11-03-2006, 08:57 PM

Jamie--It's Rod (not "Ross") Parsley. I didn't realize until today that Parsley and Haggard are connected, which is surprising. Parsley comes off (or at least used to come off) quite harshly, but I had not sensed this from Haggard.

Check out this recent blog entry on male menopause. Interesting--and seems to be true. This also talks about the sad lack of accountability experienced among many at the top of the religious world.
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/

Jamie McDaniel

11-03-2006, 09:54 PM

Blossom, I think Ross Parsley and Rod Parsley are two different people. Several sources are reporting that Ross Parsley is the new acting pastor for New Life Church.

A search on Rod Parsley shows he is the author of "Silent No More" and senior pastor of World Harvest Church, from your state of Ohio. Is that the person you are familiar with?

Daniel

11-04-2006, 08:46 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/04/us/04minister.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5094&en=28b1bf8a61849d63&hp&ex=1162702800&partner=homepage

The escort failed a lie detector test on Friday that he had volunteered to take, but the man who administered the test said the results might have been skewed because Mr. Jones had slept little and was suffering from a migraine. Mr. Jones insisted he was telling the truth and said he would take another lie detector test.

-----

Mr. Jones had a different version of the story. He said he began advertising on the Internet as a male escort, and was called by a man who identified himself as Art from Kansas City. He said they met about once a month for a relationship Mr. Jones said was purely physical.

“I had no impression of him, other than that he was a nice guy,” Mr. Jones said. “The only thing of a personal nature he ever volunteered was that he was married.”

Mr. Jones said he discovered Mr. Haggard’s true identity about six months ago when he saw him on television two days in a row, first, on a special about “The DaVinci Code” and then on a Christian station that a TV in his gym was tuned to.

“When I saw him, I didn’t say, ‘Oh, that looks like Art,’ ” Mr. Jones said. “I said, ‘Oh my God, that’s Art.’ ”

After Mr. Jones looked up his alleged client on the Internet and learned of his stature in the evangelical community, he said he was amazed. “I thought this guy is really taking a big chance,” he said.

Mr. Jones maintained that his decision to speak out about the relationship was not suggested by any gay rights groups. He also said the decision was not based on financial motives, though Mr. Jones did file for bankruptcy in April 2005. “If I’d wanted to make money, I could have blackmailed him,” he said.

Mr. Jones said he hoped that his assertions would convince the religious right to rethink their opposition to same-sex marriage.

I will not be surprised that when retested, Mr. Jones will 'pass' with flying colors- of the rainbow sort. I do fear, however, that Mr. Jones may wind up being trashed simply because of his line of work- this being an endlessly moralizing country.

Steven E. Webster

11-04-2006, 05:19 PM

Friends,

It seems that the disciplinary process at New Life Church in Colorado Springs works very fast. They have pronounced Ted Haggard "guilty":

"We, the Overseer Board of New Life Church, have concluded our deliberations concerning the moral failings of Pastor Ted Haggard. Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct."

I trust he hasn't been found guilty of merely getting a massage.

Here is the link:
http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/topstories_story_308171611.html

So far the last words I've read from Haggard himself have been denials of guilt. I will feel more sympathy for him if and when he tells the truth--including being honest with the world and his family about his sexual orientation. Wanna take bets on whether he seeks "reparative therapy?" Seeking reparative therapy would likely be another form of denial and lying in my opinion.

Steven Webster

Daniel

11-04-2006, 06:44 PM

Wanna take bets on whether he seeks "reparative therapy?" Seeking reparative therapy would likely be another form of denial and lying in my opinion.

I'd wager you on this one, but I think I would lose!

Actually, the big losers here are his wife and kids. How is he going to explain this? And how will he look in their eyes from now on? This is going to be one steep climb for this man to deal with. Whether gay or not, his future in the conservative church is over.

At a crossroads like this, one has a choice. Either to go 'up' of 'down'. I hope that he choses the former.

How about Soulforce extending a welcome? The guy needs all the friends he can get at this point.

shadomoon

11-04-2006, 07:01 PM

Wanna take bets on whether he seeks "reparative therapy?" Seeking reparative therapy would likely be another form of denial and lying in my opinion.

Steven Webster

It is my sincerest belief - especially if he is 'friends' with Dobson, that therapy to 'fix' him is in the works as we speak.

Steven E. Webster

11-04-2006, 07:25 PM

Friends,

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2014

I believe this is fairly accurate. He hasn't towed the old party line of the far-right Fundamentalists in many cases. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to reach out to Haggard, to challenge him to speak the truth rather than to continue the lies and denials.

Is Mel White the person in a position to approach Ted? Or should Jeff Lutz act as Soulforce's spokesperson and reach out to Haggard and Haggard's family.

I think turning to reparative therapy would do futher harm to Haggard's wife and kids by continuing a life of denial. My guess is that Ted has been leading a double life for many many years--not just recently.

Steven Webster

shadomoon

11-04-2006, 07:27 PM

I agree with you David
I know I am trying to get out there to other boards that are going on and try to convey that no matter - we as christians are to love and convey that love that both Mr Jones and Mr Haggard and his family are God's children.

There are a lot of hateful people on both sides, some say he had it coming and others think Mr Jones is lower than a snake. I don't have anyway to contact Mr Haggard or Mr Jones directly, but those who are reading and possibly confused need to know their are loving Christians out there who are there to support through this tragedy.

Jamie McDaniel

11-04-2006, 07:37 PM

It is my sincerest belief - especially if he is 'friends' with Dobson, that therapy to 'fix' him is in the works as we speak.
My thought as well. Pastor Haggard is headed straight to Dobson's Love Won Out program. Well, provided he can admit to being same-sex attracted. That might be a big step for him in and of itself. A lot of us know something about denial of sexual orientation even when faced with irrefutable evidence. While a Southern Baptist in my early twenties, I only fantasized about guys, yet never thought of myself as a homosexual and had "future wife" on the prayer-board next to my bed.

I do feel for his wife and five children. Infidelity just entered into one of my family member's marriage and I have witnessed the incredible pain it has created. It was of the heterosexual sort. There was not a conflict over an incompatible sexual orientation, so it is not the same thing as Haggard's situation. But I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Yet, in this case, no amount of wishing on my, Ted's, or anyone's part would change his sexual orientation. If he is same-sex attracted, he needs to admit it. A difficult first step for those who hold onto anti-gay teachings, as many of us can attest.

Jamie McDaniel

11-04-2006, 08:24 PM

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227568,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227568,00.html)
Mel White, executive director of Soulforce, a national interfaith organization that supports gay rights, acknowledged the personal tragedy for the Haggards.

White, who ghost-wrote the Rev. Jerry Falwell's autobiography before White announced his homosexuality, said such Christian leaders as Haggard and Focus on the Family's James Dobson have hurt "literally millions" of people afraid to accept being gay.

"He's been a major source of misinformation. Now he could become a major source of information," White said of Haggard.

Soulforce has staged protests at the Focus on the Family complex in Colorado Springs.

And for the record, Jeff Lutes is Soulforce's current Executive Director. Mel White now holds the title of President and Co-Founder.

Daniel

11-04-2006, 10:42 PM

Jamie- thanks for the link, and it's a revealing one at that. The statement by Haggard's former church makes it clear- if one reads between the lines- that ex-gay therapy may be waiting in the wings.

In consultation with leading evangelicals and experts familiar with the type of behavior Pastor Haggard has demonstrated, we have decided that the most positive and productive direction for our church is his dismissal and removal. In addition, the Overseers will continue to explore the depth of Pastor Haggard's offense so that a plan of healing and restoration can begin.

For whom?

If I was responsible for the man's health care right now, I would make sure to watch him carefully so that he doesn't harm himself.

There is also this:

Patton Dodd, a friend of Mr. Haggard’s who has edited seven of his books, said Mr. Haggard called him on Saturday and apologized. Mr. Dodd said that Mr. Haggard did not go into detail, but admitted that it did involve sexual transgressions.

“He’s coming clean with his family and friends,” Mr. Dodd said. Of the decision, he added, “I think it’s a good idea because this is the way for Ted and his family to get healing and restoration. He won’t have to worry about pastoring his church and can focus on being pastored himself.”

Sounds like Ex-Gay all the way, doesn't it?

Resoration? As in hire him back? I doubt it. (And will place a bet on that Steven!)

Blossom

11-04-2006, 11:21 PM

Blossom, I think Ross Parsley and Rod Parsley are two different people. Several sources are reporting that Ross Parsley is the new acting pastor for New Life Church.

Thanks, I stand happily corrected on this one!

runaway9

11-05-2006, 07:34 AM

How about Soulforce extending a welcome? The guy needs all the friends he can get at this point.

One would hope that Mel White would extend a hand to him as a gay man who used to move in those circles. I think its important for the gay Ghristian community to be as Christ-like as we can manage throughout any situation like this. Now if the prostitute had been female... that might have been cause to "pounce";)

This is my thought exactly. Most people are missing the point... His cheating on his spouse and the harm it causes their relationship and his children is the issue, not the fact that he apparently cheated with a male (prostitute or otherwise). It is time for gay Christians to attempt to change the dialog in this country regarding the true nature of Christianity.

Pastor Haggard is obviously an effective leader and counselor. I would suggest that Soulforce, MCC or perhaps the United Church of Christ make a very public call to him that gay and lesbian people could use a man with such talents as a church leader and that he would be welcomed as a pastor in our community with only a slight shift in his beliefs. Maybe not right away, but soon enough to "make the news" and cause people to think about the implications.

Not only would it provide Pastor Ted with a job future, but a way to work himself out of the closet to be who he apparently is inside (rather than reparative therapy, which I can tell you from personal experience does not work). Of course it would show the true nature of many of todays evangelical leaders. Their agenda is political and not motivated by Christ at all.

Here is a chance for less religious people who might have been swayed by the rhetoric of the evangelical movement to understand that true Christians should not be in the business of judging, which is exactly what those evangelical leaders are doing.

Let people see the best of Christianity when the gay welcoming churches welcome Pastor Ted, just like Jesus welcomed all.

mortensen_jon

11-05-2006, 10:56 AM

As a liberal, a gay man, a United Church of Christ employee, and someone who was molested by a fundamentalist pastor, it's very difficult not to gloat in Pastor Ted's situation. I must be honest in admitting that a huge part of me delights that another hypocrite has been (potentially) exposed.

Still, as a father of three and former husband, I have to be mindful of his children and his wife. I can only begin to imagine the pain and suffering that must be surging through their house-hold. I pray that they will be treated with love and compassion as this unfolds.

I really can't fault Mike Jones for his actions. Clearly, the hypocrisy of the situation was too much for him and he felt the need to share it. Was it wrong to do it immediately prior to the elections? I don't think so...

Zerbie

11-05-2006, 11:13 AM

I feel sad for the man and his family. How easily this might have happened to one of us here on this forum, had a few things proceded differently - I think that man was clearly in a psychological trap many of us can relate to, one way or another.

I like very much the idea of extending him compassion and welcome. Though the infidelity issue is huge and needs to be dealt with. That poor family!

OT to Mortenson: welcome! :) Come back and post an introduction!

mortensen_jon

11-05-2006, 11:31 AM

Not 30 seconds after submitting my previous post, there was a CNN news story about Pastor Ted's response/apology that was read to members at the New Life Church services. In his response, he admitted to struggling with his sexual identity his entire adult life. Like many of us, he experienced ups and downs in his struggle. (Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt...)

I hope and pray that he won't attempt to do the "cure" or ex-gay thing. If so, he'll only endure more conflict and pain.

We all know the peace that comes in recognizing that God created us and loves us as we are. I pray that Ted will come to know that.

Jamie McDaniel

11-05-2006, 12:25 PM

I think we should also be mindful of how this is affecting GLBT members of New Life Church. With a congregation size of 14,000, that is a lot of gay people.

I can imagine that Haggard's statement [pdf (http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2006/1105/20061105_104946_HaggardLapologize_Letter.PDF)] read to the entire church today did not help them understand there is no shame in their being gay, and that they can live happy healthy lives.

The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There's a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life.

Dash

11-05-2006, 01:33 PM

I just watched the video and there were some sad and scary words in the letter that was read. He acknowledged that he tried for years to change his feelings and could not, yet he seems to think that now he can trust that change will come. :confused: I understand how he hates so much of himself...I hated myself for so long as a fundamentalist...but then I never had a voice to influence so many thousands of people.

You can't love others until you love yourself.

He has a long and difficult road ahead of him, and who will help him understand the truth? Who will help his family, who must walk with a man so full of self-hatred? All those who will gather around him loathe homosexuality...he, self-loathing, has communicated that hatred to those thousands. Who will free them from their misguided hate?

I wish they could see that it is the hypocrisy...the lies to self and others...the hatred of self and body...the darkness of the closet that is so evil. Instead, they maintain that being gay is evil, and feed the monsters of hypocrisy, lies, and hate that will surely menace another young generation of gay and lesbian Christians.

Daniel

11-05-2006, 04:35 PM

You can't love others until you love yourself.

He has a long and difficult road ahead of him, and who will help him understand the truth? Who will help his family, who must walk with a man so full of self-hatred? All those who will gather around him loathe homosexuality...he, self-loathing, has communicated that hatred to those thousands. Who will free them from their misguided hate?

Yes! Yes! Yes!

You've said a great truth here Dash. It really does start with loving one's self in a fundamental way- no pun intended. I think this matter is entwined with that of finding one's true face. Not the one projected outward because of the desire for power, fame, money and influence. It is because of what he has said- and the pride attached to it- that the road ahead will be hard for him. At this point, it won't be about accepting the fact of an attraction to other men that will be the rock in the road: It will be about how he sees himself and the investment he has made in that image. What can that be if not idolatry?

Lo, How the Mighty Hath Fallen.

Smashing to pieces all that can not withstand the truth.

Eugene

11-05-2006, 04:51 PM

Daniel

11-05-2006, 07:31 PM

It's that which we hide from the light that gets us. It's the small true thing about ourself that trips us up. Achilles heel, for intance. Mythology is full of stories of those that got caught the by one invonvenient thing. Perhaps that's what makes us all human.

Watching the news this morning (CNN), you would have thought that gay people somehow conspired to out Mr. Haggard. (The questions of one reporter suggested that the gay community- in sum- outed Mr. Haggard- and gee- how immoral that was- how bad of us.) In fact, gay's in Denver have known about the guy for a while now.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lyn-lear/rev-ted-haggard-comes-ou_b_33208.html

Rumor has it that the gay community in Colorado Springs has known about Rev. Ted for years and that he not only has had sex with gay prostitutes, but has also had a ten-year long affair with one of his male aides, and has come on inappropriately to many young staffers. Déjà vu, anyone?

Yes. I know. The words 'rumor has it' take some wind out of the sails here, but really, how much does it take to make the point? Caught in his own web, you might say. Caught trying to have it both ways.

His statement-read this morning to his congregation- says, in effect: "The devil made me do it!". Very convenient that. True to form though. The statement is the product of a fundamentalist frame of mind. In effect, it damns gay people.

Haggard has a long way to go until he even begins to think about what he might offer to other gay christians. Still, letting him know there are other gay christians on the planet isn't a bad thing.

I think Mel White said the all the right stuff.

Haggard is at a crossroads. What's it gonna be? Which way is he gonna go? Only he knows for sure. And I bet he won't be able to even start thinking about this clearly for a long while. Change doesn't happen overnight. At least, not for most people.

Even Saul had to look up to see the light in the sky.

keltic63

11-05-2006, 08:00 PM

Pastor Haggard is obviously an effective leader and counselor. I would suggest that Soulforce, MCC or perhaps the United Church of Christ make a very public call to him that gay and lesbian people could use a man with such talents as a church leader and that he would be welcomed as a pastor in our community with only a slight shift in his beliefs. Maybe not right away, but soon enough to "make the news" and cause people to think about the implications.

Not only would it provide Pastor Ted with a job future, but a way to work himself out of the closet to be who he apparently is inside (rather than reparative therapy, which I can tell you from personal experience does not work). Of course it would show the true nature of many of todays evangelical leaders. Their agenda is political and not motivated by Christ at all.

Since when have liars and hypocrites made good pastors? Just because he is gay, all his shortcomings and issues are to be swept away, and he is to be granted instant celebrity in the gay Christian community?

My personal opinion is that Haggard has gotten all he deserves from the gay community at this time.

Besides, I don't see that a "slight shift" in belief is necessary for changing from conservative evangelical to gay evangelical. I'm still working through the changes in my theology. And I wouldn't call the theology I've encountered in the gay church a "slight shift" from conservative evangelicalism. It's more like a continental divide.

I think there's a difference in being a good leader and counselor, and being a good pastor. I don't think anyone would advocate that Pastor Ted should be ordained in any gay-friendly church in the next few weeks. I don't think that is what runaway9 was saying either.
here at soulforce, in a basic way, we are asking people to change; change their way of thinking about lgbt people, change their way of interpreting the Bible; change the way in which they show "love" to others which amounts to spiritual violence. what reputation would we gain if we rejected Pastor Ted? If we're asking people to change, should we not allow them to change? Will the gay community really sweep away the issues and grant him instant celebrity? I doubt it. But should the christian community, who happen to be gay, be willing to help him understand the things we've already learned, and help him find a place at the table with all of God's children? absolutely!
Pastor Ted is going to get "all he deserves" from all kinds of groups, gay, straight, christian, atheist, republican, democrats, Focus on the Family, Concerned Women for America, the ACLU, you name the group, someone will have an opinion, and I'm betting it won't be flattering.
I think our concept of non-violence as well as the teachings of Christ, compel us to reason together, bind the wounds, love our enemies, and our neighbors as ourselves. He'd come into the community as a novice, and judging by the resignation letter he wrote, he has a lot to learn!

TedDeLaney

11-05-2006, 08:19 PM

I have a couple of thoughts. First, this is really quite sad because it is a profound example of self-hatred. Imagine a man who is unable to control his own sexual urges hating them so much that he lashes out publicly against the entire LGBT community. Second, what irony! The male escort is the one who gets credit for integrity.

What if any impact will this have on Tuesday's so-called Marriage Amendment vote?

Ted

Eugene

11-05-2006, 10:06 PM

I think there's a difference in being a good leader and counselor, and being a good pastor. I don't think anyone would advocate that Pastor Ted should be ordained in any gay-friendly church in the next few weeks.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I was responding to what I read (which echoed the tone of a few other posts in this thread):

Pastor Haggard is obviously an effective leader and counselor. I would suggest that Soulforce, MCC or perhaps the United Church of Christ make a very public call to him that gay and lesbian people could use a man with such talents as a church leader and that he would be welcomed as a pastor in our community with only a slight shift in his beliefs.

Will the gay community really sweep away the issues and grant him instant celebrity? I doubt it.

You mean like James McGreevey? I think it's wonderful that the gay community is so open to accepting those whom others reject. But I think it's appalling that high-profile moral failures are quickly elevated to celebrity status.

Daniel

11-05-2006, 11:06 PM

here at soulforce, in a basic way, we are asking people to change; change their way of thinking about lgbt people, change their way of interpreting the Bible; change the way in which they show "love" to others which amounts to spiritual violence. what reputation would we gain if we rejected Pastor Ted? If we're asking people to change, should we not allow them to change? Will the gay community really sweep away the issues and grant him instant celebrity? I doubt it. But should the christian community, who happen to be gay, be willing to help him understand the things we've already learned, and help him find a place at the table with all of God's children? absolutely!

Well Spoke! Well Spoke! What you've articulated here is something I believe in very much: the ability and opportunity for change. If we can't hold that out to the 'worst' among us, then nonviolence means nothing.

Water rises to its own level. And metaphorically speaking, Ted Haggard, or the former Governor of New Jersey, are no exception. Though I do not see the latter doing much- if anything- even hypothetically- to counter the opression of gay people in the church, Haggard, if he goes the distance, could do a lot of good.

But that's begging the question right now.

jnm

11-05-2006, 11:21 PM

To throw my two cents into the conversation, what Haggard does not need is cheap grace. The dude lied to thousands of people, cheated on his wife and bought illegal drugs. That is a huge deal, and needs to be dealt with appropriately. Sadly, I doubt those are the issues that will be dealt with in any detail in the coming weeks of his time of "healing."

scott snedeker

11-06-2006, 12:25 AM

Wow!

Could it get any better!

Under the weight of truth the oppressive facade of homophbia topples further as the flawed cracked stones of its foundation give way. Build an ideal on rotten premise and it will putrify for all to smell its stench.

Haggard now within the Republican Thoecracy has confessed his hypocrisy.
So what now? Either way it works to our favor! Either the repblican party has to recognize that gay folks are a part of their party openly to keep their ranks or go on a witch hunt. If the latter is chosen, more gay members will leave and weaken the numbers and veracity of their leaders.
Haggard is attracted to men yes, but he betrayed his brothers and himself. He did not learn to be gay. :mad:

"Be kind to your own" --- one of the first lessons in being gay we all learned

"....The greatest coward can hurt the most ferociously" ----Annie Lennox
The miracle of Love

"homophobia is the crucible of character"-----yours truly

However, our issue is talked about every day now. This creates familiarity. Familiarity evaporates fear in most. I believe The overcomming of homophobia will be inevatible and within this decade!

Scotty:cowboy:

Daniel

11-06-2006, 04:28 AM

"Be kind to your own" --- one of the first lessons in being gay we all learned

"....The greatest coward can hurt the most ferociously" ----Annie Lennox
The miracle of Love

"homophobia is the crucible of character"-----yours truly
:

Nice turn of phrase, this last saying! Like that a lot. And the first one (Be kind...) is true as far as I can tell. Us gay folk really take pains, if you will, to not push each other out of the closest. We leave that to the person involved for the most part. Our truth is our own to tell.

Remember the old margarine commercial that used the line "You can't fool mother nature" ? That's what this whole situation reminds me of. You can assert anything you want. Try to stand the truth on its head, but the truth will come out eventually.

It certainly shoves the ex-gay crowd (growing every smaller one hopes) into the corner, doesn't it? And his association with the guy in the White House doesn't help the party of Lincoln.

Haggard is a firm supporter of President George W. Bush, and is often credited with rallying evangelicals behind Bush during the 2004 election. Author Jeff Sharlet reports that Haggard "talks to . . . Bush or his advisers every Monday" and opines that "no pastor in America holds more sway over the political direction of evangelicalism." However, White House spokesman Tony Fratto has said that Haggard was part of the weekly calls between evangelical leaders and the White House only "a couple" of times.

And the second phrase- well- that's the doozy, isn't it? He's hurt his wife and kids the most.

I hope you are right about the overcoming of homophobia. There is, of course, the old saying: "Familiarity breeds contempt." :rolleyes: But I'm with you on this one. I'll take butter on my toast to the future. Hold the margarine.

keltic63

11-06-2006, 06:50 AM

Nice turn of phrase, this last saying! Like that a lot. And the first one (Be kind...) is true as far as I can tell. Us gay folk really take pains, if you will, to not push each other out of the closest. We leave that to the person involved for the most part. Our truth is our own to tell.

Remember the old margarine commercial that used the line "You can't fool mother nature" ? That's what this whole situation reminds me of. You can assert anything you want. Try to stand the truth on its head, but the truth will come out eventually.

It certainly shoves the ex-gay crowd (growing every smaller one hopes) into the corner, doesn't it? And his association with the guy in the White House doesn't help the party of Lincoln.

And the second phrase- well- that's the doozy, isn't it? He's hurt his wife and kids the most.

I hope you are right about the overcoming of homophobia. There is, of course, the old saying: "Familiarity breeds contempt." :rolleyes: But I'm with you on this one. I'll take butter on my toast to the future. Hold the margarine.

Like those quotes too Daniel, and your butter reference got me thinking....

http://www.tvacres.com/images/chiffon_mothernature2.jpg

if you think it's butter, but it's not.....it's chiffon.

erubre

11-06-2006, 08:47 AM

There are probably many members of the clergy, some married, who occasionally if not regularly engage in homosexual sexual activity. When that becomes known the extent of the problem that ensues depends on the spouse and on the policies and position on the issues of the church of his affiliation. As far as God and morality is concerned I don't feel there is an issue, because in my view any and all forms of sexual conduct, as well as any other activity, that do not have the intent to harm another person are not immoral. ( Prejudice and intolerance, such as that exibited against gay people and same sex relationships is immoral ). God is not prejudiced or intolerant but views everyone equally without regard to sexual orientation. What makes this situation with Rev. Haggard exceptional is that he has been a moving part of organizations that foster intolerance and prejudice toward others. What is really the problem here is not so much Rev. Haggard or his personal conduct but the organizations he has been affiliated with and their position on issues like homosexuality, gay marriage, and the like.

mortensen_jon

11-06-2006, 09:17 AM

I have to agree with Scott that familiarity with homosexuality and homosexuals will ultimately overide the fear and misunderstanding that so many people have. It will also, ultimately, make it far easier for young men and women to live their own lives, independent of societal or religious pressures.

As for Pastor Ted, he nailed it yesterday when he said he was a liar and deceiver. I wish that he'd been able to add 'hypocrite' to the list. He said he's lived with a wicked and dark secret his entire adult life. I would think that a hypocrite's closet is, indeed, a wicked and dark place.

Run to the light, Ted, there's peace and serenity in the light.....

keltic63

11-06-2006, 09:35 AM

mortensen_jon

11-06-2006, 09:43 AM

Keltic,

You're correct about the reference. I can't help but wonder, however, if there won't be even a handful of members of his flock who will see the hypocrisy and irony. I pray that "gay" New Life members will seriously question the fundamentalist beliefs that restrict them to the closet. If pastor Ted has struggled with this issue for his entire adult life (and has not overcome it) what are the odds that they'll beat it and be "cured"?

Marriage may be defined, by fundamentalists, as one man - one woman, but do they have to be one miserable man and one miserable woman to be recognized as worthy? Heaven forbid!

Jamie McDaniel

11-06-2006, 11:48 AM

There are probably many members of the clergy, some married, who occasionally if not regularly engage in homosexual sexual activity.
Mike Jones stated that when he used to see clients, he thinks roughly 80% of the men were married. I really don't know what to make of that myself, other than that it is tragic that the closet forces so many non-heterosexuals into living secret lives. I'm hoping when society fosters a friendly atmosphere to GLBT people, that number sharply decreases.

What is really the problem here is not so much Rev. Haggard or his personal conduct but the organizations he has been affiliated with and their position on issues like homosexuality, gay marriage, and the like.
Humm. I understand your placing emphasis on his powerful position and the great damage his rhetoric has done to GLBT people and their families. In sheer numbers, you are quite right, that is really the problem here. Still, I'm thinking both (personal conduct and anti-gay teachings) are not good.

For example, I would be disappointed if Pastor Haggard were openly gay, serving as a leader in a liberal church, and caught cheating on his husband. In the same manner that I am disappointed with our hero Dr. King, who on limited occasions, was unfaithful to his wife. My point simply being that personal conduct does matter and champions of social justice need to also guard themselves against those powerful forces (i.e. sin) that work to tear our relationships apart.

On another note, let's consider the possibility that in five years Pastor Haggard might be a much different man, with a new book out in which he voices support for gay rights. I'm so glad that members of Soulforce and other GLBT organizations are calling him out on his error today, but not shutting the door on his participation in the future. I've read comments elsewhere on the web and apparently some people have little value for restoration and changed hearts. Their anger at Haggard is understandable, but they need a reminder to take the high road.

kara speltz

11-06-2006, 01:49 PM

Mike Jones stated that when he used to see clients, he thinks roughly 80% of the men were married. I really don't know what to make of that myself, other than that it is tragic that the closet forces so many non-heterosexuals into living secret lives. I'm hoping when society fosters a friendly atmosphere to GLBT people, that number sharply decreases.

I actually think there's another aspect that we're not examining. It goes back to the Kinsey reports that suggest (these figures could be wrong, remember I'm a senior citizen) 20% of the population is exclusively heterosexual; 20% is exclusively homosexual, and the other 60% is bisexual.

I suspect if we lived in a society that was mentally healthy around the issues of sexuality that these figures might bear out. And perhaps that 60% of the population that is bi-sexual might honestly explore that in their youth to see where exactly they fit on what is a very fluid, constantly moving scale.

What I'd like to see, and haven't is some figures in terms of adultery and gender. I know I have a belief that men are more apt to stray within a marriage than women. That being said, I also return to the understanding that our gender identity is, as I said fluid and thus runs the gammet at times.

I also hate the prevailing myth that bisexuals are somehow incapable of faithful commitments. And would never want to contribute any thing that would appear to substantiate that.

The older I get, the more I comprehend that there are almost no black and white issues, just huge areas of varying degrees of greyness.

Aw yes, I recall being a young person and looking forward to not having to deal with all these paradoxes, because surely adults knew what was right & wrong:mad:

Kara

Zerbie

11-06-2006, 02:01 PM

(these figures could be wrong, remember I'm a senior citizen) 20% of the population is exclusively heterosexual; 20% is exclusively homosexual, and the other 60% is bisexual.

I suspect if we lived in a society that was mentally healthy around the issues of sexuality that these figures might bear out. And perhaps that 60% of the population that is bi-sexual might honestly explore that in their youth to see where exactly they fit on what is a very fluid, constantly moving scale.

.

I also hate the prevailing myth that bisexuals are somehow incapable of faithful commitments. And would never want to contribute any thing that would appear to substantiate that.

:

Kara

Thank You Kara!! :D Me too!

People need to learn who they are and how they relate in significant relationships before settling into lifelong commitments.

And I too am very annoyed by the suggestion that having a bisexual orientation makes one somehow less capable of commitment - that is not true at all.

Yes, society needs to get over it's obsessive relationship with sex. People need to learn how to deal with their sexuality in mature and healthy ways, and lose the panic over it. I wait for the day when the kind of scenario we see with Mr Haggart rarely if ever happens, because for the present, it is far too common.

scott snedeker

11-06-2006, 03:22 PM

A key issue here needs to be Amplified!

Haggard now has no credibility to anyone! :shifty:

Thus his messages of homophobia have no credibility either! :confused:

The facade of homophobia crumbles further! :weee:

Let's help make this point loud and clear! :agree:

Scotty :cowboy:

keltic63

11-06-2006, 03:46 PM

A key issue here needs to be Amplified!

Haggard now has no credibility to anyone! :shifty: Yes, that is a sad fact, but one that could be rectified depending on the choices he makes now.

Thus his messages of homophobia have no credibility either! :confused: that makes sense to us, but I doubt that those who think homosexuality is a sin will change their mind because of this episode. Perhaps this is another hole in the dam, though.

The facade of homophobia crumbles further! :weee:

Let's help make this point loud and clear! :agree:

Scotty :cowboy:It certainly is the kind of message we can build upon!

NathanATX

11-06-2006, 05:06 PM

We really have to connect...

CAUSE = homophobia, spiritual violence

with the

EFFECT = broken families, individuals putting themselves at risk, lies, mental & emtional health challenges, etc.

Giancarlo

11-06-2006, 07:03 PM

Just a bit of a side note, One of my friends had to go out on his own and pursue a college degree with some help from a few of his supportive relatives (his uncle primarily)... his parents kicked him out for being gay. His parents subscribe to the Pat Robertson style Christianity. I have such disdain for parents who do that to their kids.

Daniel

11-06-2006, 07:48 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karen-finley/far-right-down-low-sec_b_33402.html

Far Right, Down Low - Secret Sexual Shame

It has always been suspect the tremendous amount of latent, repressed, sexual energy transferred into creating "LUST BOUNDARIES" for the far right.

The Evangelical minister, Haggard continues his sexual urgency in public: his private, lusting "massage" sessions with crystal meth as national porn . We are given the narrative: his intense urge for male to male intimacy with a stranger, a paid stranger.

Haggard's own Pretty Man scenario "sex act" would make a tremendous film. His very own Brokeback Evangelical Mountain. Please,suggest casting, a director and setting.

The tragedy is the pain of denial, the violence of denial by the far right of not accepting gay love and sex in their Christian hearts.
Homosexual desire should be valued and recognized. His family, his ministry, his children should not look at him as a man who has sinned. But as a man who has been in a private, living hell by his secret, personal, homophobia in a society that does not protect gay relationships. Haggard suffers from deep, intense self loathing and self hatred. His faith and country further condemns his sexuality. Haggard is an example that being gay is not a "choice". Haggard is on the down low.

Let us open our hearts to Haggard and see if he can accept his own sexuality. And hopefully Haggard can become a minister who will continue to minister with his homosexuality. But perhaps the intensity to keep gay sexuality "dirty" and "shameful" will be too tempting. For by keeping his sexual orientation a sin, Haggert now has a way to confess and keep the Evangelical church active and in business.

I am sure that Haggard has prayed and prayed and prayed.

Haggard try this prayer.

Dear God,
Give me strength to accept my homosexuality.
Give me the act of Love to love all people regardless of their sexual preferences. God, let me love myself as you love me.
Give me the act of forgiveness. So I can forgive myself for being human.
Lord, forgive me for my homophobia.
Give me Mercy to begin anew, to start a new ministry not based on sexual orientation but on love and acceptance.
Give me Faith to propose in favor of Gay Marriage.
Amen

Vote.

This may be a sermon for the choir here, but I, for one, never tire of hearing this message.

Karen Finley, a performance artist, has had her own issues with evangelicals: as a member of the infamous "NEA Four', she was hounded for her work which was labled obscene. Known as the 'Ultimate Black Sheep', she, more than anyone, understands the outsider among us and has championed the rights of GLBT persons for many years.

While her style of expression may not be your cup of tea, her brew is always thought-provoking, and once experienced, not easily forgotten.

See http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/2399/KAREN.HTML for more information.

This echoes the experience of Mike Jones who said today in an interview at http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4611420

Jones said he had sex monthly with Haggard for three years, ending in August. From those sexual encounters, Jones said he believes Haggard is a homosexual, despite having a wife and five children.

"Ted, you need to be honest with yourself," Jones said over the air. "If you're a gay man, you're a gay man."

NathanATX

11-07-2006, 11:59 AM

Soulforce Urges Compassion for Haggard and
Accountability for the National Association of Evangelicals

(Austin, TX) -- In response to the news that Rev. Ted Haggard has been dismissed by New Life Church and resigned as President of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE), Soulforce Executive Director Jeff Lutes urged the gay community to be compassionate and simultaneously called on the leaders of the NAE to claim responsibility for their role in the crisis.

"Rev. Haggard is just one more tragic example of how lives are destroyed by the lies about gay and lesbian people perpetuated by the NAE, the Religious Right, and both the Protestant and Roman Catholic Church. Taught by the church to hate himself, the only option from his point of view was to lead a psychologically and spiritually damaging double life marked by denial and self-destructive behavior. Rev. Haggard is a victim of religion-based bigotry that regularly demeans and demoralizes gay and lesbian people and refuses to acknowledge that we are part of the American fabric, and that many of us form loving families and practice a deep faith in God."

The NAE holds that "homosexuality is a deviation from the Creator's plan for human sexuality." In a 2004 policy statement, the organization opposes legislation that would protect gays and lesbians from hate crimes or employment discrimination on the grounds that "such legislation inevitably is perceived as legitimatizing [sic] the practice of homosexuality and elevates that practice to a level of an accepted moral standard."

Haggard submitted his resignation as President of the NAE on Thursday, shortly after allegations of homosexual activity were aired on Denver talk radio. On Saturday, Haggard was removed as pastor of New Life Church in Colorado Springs. In a letter to his congregation, Haggard wrote "there's a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all my adult life." He also wrote that the church's overseers have required him to "submit to the oversight of Dr. James Dobson, Pastor Jack Hayford, and Pastor Tommy Barnett. Those men will perform a thorough analysis of my mental, spiritual, emotional and physical life. They will guide me through a program with the goal of healing and restoration for my life, my marriage, and my family."

In reaction to the unfolding events, Lutes said "Our community's anger at Rev. Haggard's hypocrisy is completely understandable. However, my hope is that our community will take the high road and extend an olive branch of friendship and support when he is ready to fully come out as a gay man. Dobson and the others will counsel him to bury, deny, and repress his sexuality even deeper than before. They will wound his spirit, and he is going to need our prayers and our compassionate message that God loves him, affirms him, and calls him to live his life openly with honesty and integrity."

scott snedeker

11-07-2006, 11:20 PM

Only if haggard made amends to compensate for the damage he has done would I consider him worthy of my prayers.

Only if he offered apology and affirmation for gay rights with equal or better zeal with which he projected his homophobia would I consider forgiveness.

How many have paid the price for his action? How many have died? And what is yet to come?

He must demonstrate accountability to gay people everywhere for without it he has only thus far demonstrated selfish sanctimonious predation.

He only confessed homosexuality because he was caught. He did not even ackowledge his spiritual violence toward a handy minority that was fashionable to bash recently.

He has committed great evil the sting of which runs far and deep.

Frankly, I have a few miilion people in line who are worthy of prayer before his turn comes up.

Spiritually the best response for me now is vengence. I will move on to frustration and then later to hope. And then, perhaps, on up to forgiveness if at that time signs of accountability are the main thrust of his mission.

I am not Ghandi or Christ. I am a human being with a partially restored self-esteem and must go through these steps to achieve spiritual well-being. Being honest and genuine with myself is immutably essential for my connection to source energy (God). And I suspect I am not unique.

scotty:cowboy:

mortensen_jon

11-08-2006, 07:47 AM

Daniel

11-08-2006, 08:54 AM

Is Dobson too busy, really?
Is Dobson afraid to become Haggard's spiritual "bedfellow"?

Or does Dobson know what we all know....there's no cure for being gay/lesbian; it's a gift, not a "demon"?

Too busy? Really? I'm shocked! :rolleyes:

Pure political calculation- that's what I think Dobson is engaging in. In his eyes, Haggard is beyond saving. For him, sex with another man really is the sin of all sins- once you do that - monthly for three years- you are tainted forever.

Dobson's words are a clarion call- and the first splash- of Ted Haggard being thrown overboard.

keltic63

11-08-2006, 09:17 AM

Here's a headline from Focus on the Family

Dobson Won't Counsel Haggard
Focus On The Family Leader Says He Doesn't Have Enough Time To Devote

Is Dobson too busy, really?
Is Dobson afraid to become Haggard's spiritual "bedfellow"?

Or does Dobson know what we all know....there's no cure for being gay/lesbian; it's a gift, not a "demon"?

Here's the URL, if you're interested:
http://www.krdotv.com/story.cfm?nav=news&storyID=1353

"A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, 'Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.' Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?" He said, "The one who showed him mercy." And Jesus said to him, "You go, and do likewise."

suzer1013

11-08-2006, 12:04 PM

I haven't had much to say about the subject of this thread, mostly because other people can say it better. Here is one blog I'd like to point y'all to, whose take on the situation I can completely agree with. I think he "gets it", so to speak.

http://sandalstraps.blogspot.com/2006/11/is-homophobia-self-hatred.html

While there is a very human part of me that cannot help but appreciate the irony of the situation and watching the "holier-than-thou" being taken down a peg or two, I realize that Christian compassion should lead me beyond gloating and into a place of love and prayer for this man. While not dismissing his indiscretions, and not dismissing his anti-gay vitriol, I feel something for him -- as one broken person to another. Those who fly high, fall hard, I guess. I did not rejoice at the revelations, I felt no glee at his rather public come-uppance. And I feel nothing but compassion for his wife and children as they now navigate a very different course for their lives.

When I read his own description of his "sin", it painted a picture of a man who hates himself beyond measure -- something many of us in the GLBT community are familiar with because of the spiritual violence many of us were raised with.

I hope he will come to accept himself. I hope that he finds the "conversion" therapy to be the lie that it is, and can trust God that he is loved just as God created him to be. And perhaps that will lead him into a place of love not only for himself, but for the GLBT people he has previously considered "sinners".

Blessings,

Susan

NathanATX

11-08-2006, 11:26 PM

Here's his blog...
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=93712344&blogID=190747736&MyToken=714a9001-293a-471f-baea-b2c7688a681a

And my response... not sure if he'll approve it...

Hi Pastor Scott,
I can really appreciate your call for leaders and pastors to have unassailable integrity. I lead the young adult ministry at my church and will eventually be going to seminary and seeking ordination. I am very aware of how my walk with God impacts those I minister to and try to always be conscious of how my words and actions might be perceived by others. Most of all though, I strive to live by Jesus' words when He said the greatest commandment is to "love God with all your heart, soul, mind & strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself."

I don't think we can abuse our bodies with drugs and truly love ourselves. I don't think we can put our families, relationships & ministries at risk through inappropriate sexual behavior and truly love others. And if we're not loving others, how can we love God?

The one thing I want to close with is that integrity is the issue here and not homosexuality. I believe a person can be gay, be in a committed and loving relationship and be in God's perfect will for their life. I also believe a person can be gay, live in denial, lie to their loved ones, make huge mistakes, put themselves and others at risk, and be outside of God's perfect will for their life.

The church has to stop creating the fear, the pressure, the shame, the guilt, etc., that causes gay & lesbian young people to follow in the footsteps of Ted Haggard. And as bad as his situation is, it pales in comparison to a gay person committing suicide because they're afraid of "the dark & repulsive"(Ted's words) "sin" inside them.

I love your music, Pastor Scott. Your ministry blesses me. I thank God for you.

Peace,
Nate Black

Daniel

11-09-2006, 07:03 AM

Nate- did you catch this re living in denial (and I'm not talking the State), making huge mistakes and harming family as well as self?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/opinion/08savage.html?ex=1163739600&en=aa6c902ef74c3a25&ei=5070&emc=eta1

Back in the bad old days — the mythical 1950s, the era social conservatives pine for — most gay men were closeted, which made it relatively easy for them to arrange discreet trysts. You could rely on the discretion of your sex partners because they were relying on yours. It was the era of mutually assured destruction, both in terms of nuclear warfare and gay sex. Your partner couldn’t reveal your secret without revealing his own.

Needless to say, a sex life infused with cold-war-style tensions didn’t lead to many healthy or lasting relationships.

Today gay and bisexual men live openly, making the modern closet a much less crowded place. While once all the best gay men were closeted, now the only adults you find in the closet are the fearful, the pathetic and the hypocritical. The men you meet in today’s closet are the ones with a great deal to lose if their secrets are exposed. They’re gay men with lucrative careers that would collapse if they came out; gay men whose obscenely wealthy families would disown them if they lived openly; or gay men leading large congregations that would dismiss them if they knew the truth about their pastor.

A less crowded closet doesn’t just mean slimmer pickings for men like Ted Haggard, but unreliable ones as well. While once you could be certain that the closeted gay man you were sleeping with would still be closeted 10 or 20 years in the future, now you never know. The closeted gay man you entrust with your secret today may be out next year. As he has nothing left to hide, your secret is no longer safe. Better hope you parted on good terms.

Which is why so many powerful closet cases turn to callboys. It’s not just the callboy’s promise of discretion, but the sense that the old dynamics — mutually assured destruction — remain in force. A callboy can’t expose your secret without exposing his own. There’s still a stigma attached to selling sex.

So why did Mike Jones speak out?

Because today it is arguably more shameful and damaging to be a hypocritical closet case than it is to be a sex worker. Even those delighted by Mr. Haggard’s disgrace — disclosure: I count myself among their number — ache for his five children, all suffering now for the sins of their father. And let me be clear: their father’s sin is not his sexual orientation, but his deceit and hypocrisy. His sin is the closet.

When Representative Mark Foley flamed out, Pat Robertson said: “Well, this man’s gay. He does what gay people do.” That lie might have worked when most gay Americans were closeted, but it doesn’t work anymore.

------

And while most callboys will continue to respect a code of silence where the average closet case is concerned, the Ted Haggards of the world have been placed on notice: You can’t have your callboy and disparage him too.

And let's not lose sight of this:

http://www.gaycitynews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17442406&BRD=2729&PAG=461&dept_id=568864&rfi=6

Haggard was a prime mover behind the anti-gay marriage referendum, and also opposed Colorado's Referendum I, which would have enabled same-sex couples to register as domestic partners, receiving most of the same rights as married couples under state law-although it would not have guarenteed that they could adopt children from all agencies. Jones told the Rocky Mountain News he revealed his paid relationship with Haggard because he hoped that it would influence voters to oppose Amendment 43 and support Referendum I.

On Tuesday, 54.2 percent of Colorado voters rejected the domestic partner initiative, and 56.5 percent approved the anti-gay marriage amendment.

"I believe in God," Jones said. "I've always had faith."

----

Haggard's downfall is a severe blow to the Christian right evangelicals, and may well initiate a new witch-hunt for closeted homosexuals within their ranks, as the widely read Christian Post suggested in an editorial this week, saying that the Haggard scandal was a "dark exposure of how deeply the sin of homosexuality has taken root in the American society. If the accusations are indeed true, now would be the time for the Evangelical community to look within its own walls and battle against the culture of sin that looms before the Church of Christ."

Sharlet, the author of the Harper's profile on Haggard, wrote this week in The Revealer, the daily bulletin of the Center on Religion and the Press at New York University which he edits, that he talked to Haggard's accuser Jones "on the phone."

"He's not vindictive, nor particularly political; he's voted for Republicans and Democrats," Sharlet reported. "He struggled with his decision, out of compassion for a man in the closet. He was motivated, he said, simply by being a gay man who's been around long enough to know how Ted's politics play out in the ordinary lives of people Jones cares about. That's about as good a motive for outing someone as I've ever heard."

But, added Sharlet, Haggard is "also another victim of the very closet over which he publicly stands guard, as are all the New Life Church members he's led into it. That story may not make the mainstream media. Indeed, it seems unlikely that Ted's downfall will be reported with any more nuance than that of Mark Foley's political collapse... The downfall of Ted Haggard is not just another tale of hypocrisy, it's a parable of the paradoxes at the heart of American fundamentalism."

Steven E. Webster

11-10-2006, 10:56 PM

Friends,

Here's the link:

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/11/they_knew_hagga.html

This also give a teeny hint at Haggard's own consciousness of his same-sex orientation.

Steven Webster

Jamie McDaniel

11-12-2006, 06:27 AM

Evangelical Leaders Knew Haggard was Gay all along
Steve, that is wild if true. I couldn't find a second source, however, other than The Jewish Week article quoted in Sullivan's blog. I'm skeptical at the moment however, due to Dobson's surprise (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?p=13973#post13973) when the news broke. I would have thought that Sheldon would have alerted Dobson, since he is next door neighbors with Haggard and also has an ex-gay ministry.

dewdrop_world

11-12-2006, 09:21 AM

Just a minor gripe... every time this thread pops up to the top of the list, I see a thumbs-up icon next to it. Are we suggesting that the events discussed herein are a happy occasion? I find that troublesome, and if there's a way to remove the icon, I would appreciate it.

James

Daniel

11-12-2006, 09:53 AM

A very interesting and substantive article that originally appeared May 2005, now published online November 2, 2006.

My eyebrows peaked at the following passage.

http://www.harpers.org/SoldiersOfChrist-20061103288348488.html

After church, I walked across the parking lot to the World Prayer Center, where I watched prayers scroll over two giant flat-screen televisions while a young man played piano. The Prayer Center—a joint effort of several fundamentalist organizations but located at and presided over by New Life—houses a bookstore that when I visited was called the Arsenal (its name has since been changed to Solomon's Porch), as well as “corporate” prayer rooms, personal “prayer closets,” hotel rooms, and the headquarters of Global Harvest, a ministry dedicated to “spiritual warfare.” (The Prayer Center's nickname in the fundamentalist world is “spiritual NORAD.”) The atrium is a soaring foyer adorned with the flags of the nations and guarded by another bronze warrior angel, a scowling, bearded type with massive biceps and, again, a sword. The angel's pedestal stands at the center of a great, eight-pointed compass laid out in muted red, white, and blue-black stone. Each point directs the eye to a contemporary painting, most depicting gorgeous, muscular men—one is a blacksmith, another is bound, fetish-style, in chains—in various states of undress. My favorite is The Vessel, by Thomas Blackshear, a major figure in the evangelical-art world. Here in the World Prayer Center is a print of The Vessel, a tall, vertical panel of two nude, ample-breasted, white female angels team-pouring an urn of honey onto the shaved head of a naked, olive-skinned man below. The honey drips down over his slab-like pecs and his six-pack abs into the eponymous vessel, which he holds in front of his crotch. But the vessel can't handle that much honey, so the sweetness oozes over the edges and spills down yet another level, presumably onto our heads, drenching us in golden, godly love. Part of what makes Blackshear's work so compelling is precisely its unabashed eroticism; it aims to turn you on, and then to turn that passion toward Jesus.

This reminds me of my college days when one of my professors came into class (the spitting image of a married closeted gay man) and asked the class, in all seriousness, if they ever had 'feelings' for Jesus.

I do not in any way wish to disparage the work of the artist. It's just very telling how homoeroticism stares us in the face at times. Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Hmmmm.

And then there is this bit about one of Haggard's flock.

Sitting across from me in her kitchen, she closed her big brown eyes and shushed herself. “I'm listening,” she said quietly.

“To the TV?” I asked. In the next room, Aaron Michael was watching an action movie; the house was filled with the sound of explosions.

“No,” said Linda. “To my Spirit.” She opened her eyes and explained the process she had undergone to reach her refined state. She called it “spiritual restoration.” Anyone can do it, she promised, “even a gay activist.” Linda had seen with her own eyes the sex demons that make homosexuals rebel against God, and she said they are gruesome; but she did not name them, for she would not “give demons glory.” They are all the same, she said.[3] “It's radicalism.”

She reached across the table and touched my hand. “I have to tell you, the spiritual battle is very real.” We are surrounded by demons, she explained, reciting the lessons she had learned in her small-group studies at New Life. The demons are cold, they need bodies, they long to come inside. People let them in in two different ways. One is to be sinned against. “Molested,” suggested Linda. The other is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. You could walk by sin—a murder, a homosexual act—and a demon will leap onto your bones. Cities, therefore, are especially dangerous.

Footnote [3]:

3. The life of the gay man, in the evangelical imagination, seems to be an endless succession of orgasms, interrupted only by jocular episodes of male bonhomie. The gay man promises Christian men a guilt-free existence, the garden before Eve. As such, he is not just tempting but temptation embodied; “the Enemy,” to whom Linda often refers.

Oh boy. I live in a big city......Haggard went to Denver.....that must mean......

NathanATX

11-13-2006, 08:31 AM

Oh boy. I live in a big city......Haggard went to Denver.....that must mean......

...that it's all your fault...
...that you've shared demons... (do demons carry stds?)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Steven E. Webster

11-15-2006, 11:26 AM

The Onion has this scoop!

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/55141 :)

Steven Webster

Giancarlo

11-15-2006, 11:43 AM

So I need an update... was a back massage and meth all he got? Or did he confirm there was indeed more?

Daniel

11-15-2006, 12:35 PM

The Onion has this scoop!

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/55141 :)

Steven Webster

After reading the link, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. What a muddle Haggard is in! So, if the devil made him do it, then Republicans must be of the devil, right?

I know Soulforce is advocating sending letters of encouragement to Mr. Haggard, but it seems like he needs a great deal more than that.

How about a better scriptwriter and press agent?

And who is he going to finger? Foley?

That would be too much. I'll fall off my chair if that turns out to be the next shoe that drops. Or will that be a bead?

Steven E. Webster

11-15-2006, 11:00 PM

Daniel

11-16-2006, 08:01 AM

Daniel and friends,

The Onion article I linked to above is a satire (as is everything else in their publication). I hope you didn't take any of it to be the truth.

I could understand the confusion, though--truth is stranger than fiction, they say.

Steven W.

Understood it was satire......went with my own you might say....folly does indeed makes for strange bedfellows. That said- I'm not very good at it, am I ? :rolleyes:

suzer1013

11-16-2006, 09:18 AM

Interesting article I found through MadPriest's blog:

(from Christian Today (http://www.christiantoday.com/article/focus.on.the.family.joins.counselling.programme.fo r.ted.haggard/8332.htm))

Focus on the Family announced Tuesday that one of its senior officials, H.B. London, will join the team overseeing a counselling programme for Ted Haggard.

Haggard, an evangelical minister, was fired from his mega church recently amid allegations he had sex with a male prostitute and took drugs.

London will replace Focus founder James Dobson on the counselling programme, who withdrew from the team citing a lack of time.

.............

Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian ministry in Colorado Springs, said the panel that fired Haggard invited London to join the team overseeing Haggard’s counselling, called restoration.

"From the Christian perspective, we think in terms of prayer, we think in terms of what we call godly counsel, where godly men who are clean themselves insert themselves in the life of the one who is struggling," London said.

The symbolic laying on of hands may also be a part of the recovery, London said.

"I'm sure there will be those who lay their hands on Pastor Haggard as an act of faith, calling on the act of God to restore and heal," he said. "The prayer can be therapeutic, the laying on of hands can be ceremonial."

The other members of the team are Pastors Jack Hayford of The Church on the Way in Van Nuys, California, and Tommy Barnett of First Assembly of God in Phoenix.
______________

What an interesting Freudian slip (highlighted in bold). Speaks a bit of the psychology of the sexually repressed men trying to "restore" Mr. Haggard, you think? It saddens me to see Mr. Haggard entering once again into ex-gay therapy, when he has already said it failed him. Sad also to see those who are so immersed in spiritual violence against GLBT people pushing it again on a child of God. <sigh>

Susan

keltic63

11-16-2006, 09:29 AM

What an interesting Freudian slip (highlighted in bold). Speaks a bit of the psychology of the sexually repressed men trying to "restore" Mr. Haggard, you think? It saddens me to see Mr. Haggard entering once again into ex-gay therapy, when he has already said it failed him. Sad also to see those who are so immersed in spiritual violence against GLBT people pushing it again on a child of God. <sigh>

Susan

one might even say that Haggard is screwed!

kimmyd

11-16-2006, 10:08 AM

Hi Everyone, been too busy to post for a long time, but here is my take on the Haggard/Jones situation, FWIW.

Haggard's screaming from the pulpic against gays was exactly what it generally turns out to be:an effort to hide his own sexual preferences. I feel no pity or otherwise compassion for someone who caused so much emotional harm to those he is actually a part of. He deserves every moment of embarassment he gets.

Jones is an opportunist whose part in this is self-serving and nothing more.

The two of them deserve each other.

The 'counseling' Haggard's church is offering will be the brainwashing generally associated with being 'cured' of homosexuality.

Haggard's apologies read, "PLEASE keep me on the payroll!"

Too bad it didn't work.

Haggard's church members, whose brains have long been washed and shrunken in the dryers among the pews, offer not forgiveness but hope: 'Maybe he really isn't gay! Maybe I'M not really gay! Maybe no one will find out how many of us ARE gay!"

Haggard is a F'd up little man who indeed needs counseling--so that he can learn to embrace what he is and be what he is without guilt and apologies, and with love for himself as a person.

The only apology Haggard needs to make is to the gay community--for first slamming them, then when he is caught being one of them slamming them again.

Until he does that, he can go to hell in his handbasket of denial, IMO.

Jamie McDaniel

11-16-2006, 12:58 PM

kimmyd

11-17-2006, 08:36 AM

So I need an update... was a back massage and meth all he got? Or did he confirm there was indeed more?

The affair was ongoing for three years.

He doesn't need to confirm or deny anything about it; the guy's a pathological in denial of his sexuality.

YOU do the math.

kimmyd

11-17-2006, 08:40 AM

The staff is spending today going through the 163 letters that have so far been written to Ted Haggard. I have been very touched by the loving things the people of Soulforce have typed in order to send him a word of comfort. You have expressed yourself as openly gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people. Several are also addressing him as fellow gay Christians coming from a conservative background, sharing your own experience with denial and being in bondage to anti-gay misinformation.

We've had to mark only a few as not being sendable due to the writer still being too angry with Ted Haggard.

I dropped the first 10 in the mailbox this morning. Tomorrow a lot more will be sent. We will be doing this for a few more days, so there is still time to write if you feel compelled.
www.soulforce.org/letters/1

Why would anyone want to 'comfort' a guy who bashed homoesxuality, while all the while living as a homosexual??? And a druggie, hooker-buying one preaching from a pulpit, nonetheless.

His hatred caused so much damage, his filth and lies hurt so many people--and we're supposed to pour love out to him for those actions?

Don't count me in on the sympathetic aspect of this.

He deserves jail-time. Anyone else would have been arrested for the criminal actions alone.

BOO F'n HOO, Haggard. SUCK IT UP LIKE A BIG BOY.

kimmyd

11-17-2006, 10:17 AM

I'm a devout athiest, actually. Due in no small part to BS ministers like Haggard.

But you do have very, very good points; it's not like any of us have never hurt someone/people and needed forgiveness.

I, however, have never preached to thousands about one thing while living another. The damage he caused is so wide-spread it's a crime in its own right.

So while I love your point and understand it (to be honest, it reached me. If I'd have known christians like you long ago, I'd never have lost my faith)...it's hard for me to fogive on that scale versus someone who hurt someone on a MUCH smaller scale.

I get sick in the stomach when things like this happen involving someone who pretends to be a christian. [edited] A minister once said, "The hottest spot in hell is reserved for ministers who have led people away from God."

[edited]

Next thing you know, we'll all find out Dobson and Falwell have been lovers for decades.:rolleyes: I've suspected as much for years.

dewdrop_world

11-17-2006, 10:45 AM

Hi kimmyd,

Yes, we have every right to be angry for the harm Haggard has done in his ministry. But I find myself asking, is it right to stay angry?

I don't mean to say that you are wrong for being angry. I'm angry at evangelical Christianity too. When angry, we need to feel the anger fully... for the purpose seeing through it to the root.

Anger hurts, and like a crying baby, it needs to be taken care of. In my experience, there is only one person who can take care of one's anger, and that is oneself. Someone else triggers anger in us, and our response to anger is so fast and so intense that it's often outside our direct control. But by taking care of anger, over time it becomes easier to see that our response to the trigger is not inevitable. We can hold it in awareness and act out of love and nonviolence even when shaking with fury.

So yes, rage and cry, but also own the anger and care for it. It hurts to do this, but it hurts even more over the long haul to remain in anger's thrall.

Would you feel comfortable talking about experiences in your past that contribute to your anger now? It might help. If you don't want to do it publicly that's OK.

Peace to you,
James

kimmyd

11-17-2006, 10:52 AM

EEEEEEOOOOOUUUUU !!!! Thanks a LOT KIMMYD !!! Now I'll have that image in my mind for the rest of the day! talk about things that make your stomach turn :D

No offense to you or your spiritual journey. I do respect it. In my experience, 90% of the atheists I've known (and loved in many cases) have been people who were really angry with God and became atheists just to piss Him off.

Others may have told you otherwise, but one of the coolest things about God is that you are allowed to be angry with Her. Some of Her best friends are pissed at Her -- even in the Bible. If you ever wanna come home? the door is open and the porch light is on!;)

Yes, that is exactly the kind of 'athiest' I am. Exceot not to piss Him off but bc I'm pissed at Him. And your letter was so nice it almost made me almost cry.

Yup: the definition of ugliness has GOT to be the image of those two getting it on.:lol: :lol: :lol: OH BABY!

BruceChris

11-20-2006, 03:24 PM

Maybe this site really is a gift from God. We can come here, talk to each other, maybe let off a little steam, consider forgiveness, or at least the known hazards of excessive judgementalism, love your enemies even if they don't deserve it, and maybe somehow get back to our Christian selves. (Kinda like when I ROLL UP the windows on my car, just before I tell the other driver just exactly how stupid he really is.

Peace and LoL/ove, Bruce Chris

Willy

11-20-2006, 04:25 PM

I suppose it's good that someone offers a hand of friendship to Hoo-Hah Haggard, but hell will freeze over before I ever become that someone.

http://tinyurl.com/y57ljr (Link)

BruceChris

11-20-2006, 04:57 PM

To Haggard, or even offer to watch Dobson and Falwell make kissy-kissy. But hell will freeze over, several times, before I watch O.J. talk about his book.

Peace, still working on the love, -- BC

Giancarlo

11-20-2006, 05:14 PM

No offense to you or your spiritual journey. I do respect it. In my experience, 90% of the atheists I've known (and loved in many cases) have been people who were really angry with God and became atheists just to piss Him off.

Most atheists are atheists because they simply do not believe in god. I find that comment a bit condescending. Why should we believe in something that's not there? And most atheists I know are happy people who are happy to be who they are. I'm an atheist who comes to the conclusion that there is no god.

Anyways...

Falwell and Dobson... doing... oh my goodness. Are you trying to give me a heart attack? That's an image that is burned into my mind. I think perhaps they wanted a third party which includes Fred Phelps too.

mortensen_jon

11-20-2006, 05:42 PM

I wrote a letter of compassion to Ted Haggard for two reasons:

1. To share my faith journey (and life story), and
2. BECAUSE of the influence that he has on others.

I'm sure that if he does the "ex-gay" thing, he'll only continue to hurt and confuse MORE people. My letter of compassion to Ted is not so much for him as it is for the thousands of people who might hear him continue to preach that homosexuality is a sin and can be "cured".

Simply put, my heart aches for all the fundamentalists who can't live their lives as they are - gay.

Willy

11-20-2006, 06:08 PM

At least we can comfort ourselves that Ted Haggard will be forced to confess, and then to take lie detector tests. Show us the love (http://tinyurl.com/ykqxwp), baby! Then, of course, there'll be the aversion therapy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversion_therapy), no doubt combined with the penile plethysmograph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penile_plethysmograph).

Now, Ted, if that doesn't work then it'll be on to chemical castration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration), or, if you just can't kick the habit, maybe you can sign on for a South African sex change (http://www.q.co.za/news/2000/07/000728-sexchange1.htm). I'm sure your fellow Christians will be happy to accept you in your new gender. Feel the love, Ted.

Jamie McDaniel

11-20-2006, 10:12 PM

275 people have now written letters to Mr. Haggard. The people that are writing represent the heart of Soulforce.

Many are reflecting on the fact that they themselves were not always enlightened on the issue, that they struggled mightily to reconcile their sexual orientation with their faith, and while in the closet, made unhealthy choices. They are sharing how becoming authentic and living with integrity freed them.

Of those who struggled, none are withholding love simply because Haggard's self-loathing and anti-gay expressions were much more public than their own.

Others are using their letters to remind Haggard of his gifts while challenging him to listen to voices other than those which made him want to hide his sexual orientation in the first place.

Though at the present he may be an adversary, Ted is someone who knows what it is like to be same-sex attracted living in a world geared towards those who are attracted to the opposite sex. So we have that connection. And shouldn't that connection make it somewhat easier to envision reconciliation?

Here are some Dr. King quotes that should challenge and encourage us:

"Love is a potent instrument for social and collective transformation." 1

"We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive." 2

And here is John Lewis, reflecting on his time with Dr. King:

"Love the hell out of them, he would say. And he meant that literally. If there is hell in someone, if there is meanness and anger and hatred in him, we've got to love it out." 3

That, friends, is the challenge of Soulforce. Placing emphasis on that challenge is what makes us different, I think, from other organizations working towards LGBT equality. If, after getting 275 letters in the mail to his home address, Ted Haggard experiences a moment of hope and ventures to soulforce.org and finds this thread, let's not have him lose that hope.

For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven. So says the writer of Ecclesiastes. The time to extend compassion to Haggard is now. The time to discuss the shocking news was three weeks ago. And for those who long to hear an apology, that time can come a little later.

-----------------

1. Phillips, Donald T., Martin Luther King Jr. on Leadership. New York: Warner Books, 1998, 68.

2. King, Martin Luther Jr., The Strength to Love. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1981, 50.

3. Lewis, John, with Michael D'Orso, With the Wind: A Memoir of the Movement. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1998, 86.

Willy

11-20-2006, 10:26 PM

For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven. So says the writer of Ecclesiastes. The time to extend compassion to Haggard is now. The time to discuss the shocking news was three weeks ago. And for those who long to hear an apology, that time can come a little later.
Read all of Ecclesiastes 3. It's not all sweetness and light. It says there's a time to hate, a time to kill, a time to fight, and (well, I'm extrapolating a bit here) a time to call a wingnut evangelical secret gay hypocrite a wingnut evangelical secret gay hypocrite. :)

Dash

11-20-2006, 10:55 PM

Been watching a lot of the old TV series Kung Fu with David Carradine. Very well written, it resonates strongly with me. I believe this is partly due to the fact that it recalls to me a spiritual path that actually precedes my Christianity. I was frightened into becoming Christian when I was a small boy, but not before I had been exposed to Caine's wisdom...much of which was drawn from the Tao Te Ching. In one of the episodes from season 2 the young Caine is unhappy to see the kindness Master Kan shows to a man who had broken their trust:

"He betrayed us. Yet we feed and clothe him," says Caine.

"And you disapprove," replies Master Kan. "I am aware of his unsavory adventures. I am aware also of his hunger and cold. . . . Will the earth fall away from under his feet? Will the sun, shining on all else, refuse him light? If sun and earth and water refrain from judgment, who am I to withhold a blanket and a bowl of rice?"
If we can't find wisdom in the bible to love, then we ought to keep looking till we find it.:reading: :flower:

Willy

11-21-2006, 12:01 AM

Oh, I don't think Ted is in much danger of starvation. If he should get to that point, I'll happily give him some work cutting my grass. But, for the moment, this man has not told the truth. Hasn't even directly acknowledged his homosexuality. It's all by implication, and when he did that he referred to it as a dark and repulsive thing. For this, he should be forgiven? I say first comes the justice, then we'll discuss the forgiveness.

I'll never be too good at turning the other cheek, except for maybe the two cheeks that I'd happily show the man as I walk away from him.

dewdrop_world

11-21-2006, 07:15 AM

I'll never be too good at turning the other cheek, except for maybe the two cheeks that I'd happily show the man as I walk away from him.

Well, IMHO, that's taking the easy way out (but you probably already know that ;) ).

Never say "never" -- it takes practice, practice which doesn't begin as long as you're saying "I'll never" or "I can't." (It also takes making a lot of mistakes.)

Besides, according to recent research, "turning the other cheek" was not a gesture of submission but rather a form of nonviolent resistance in Jesus's time.

They note that at the time of Jesus, striking someone deemed to be of a lower class with the back of the hand was used to assert authority and dominance. If the persecuted person "turned the other cheek," the discipliner was faced with a dilemma. The left hand was used for unclean purposes, so a back-hand strike on the opposite cheek would not be performed. The other alternative would be a slap with the open hand as a challenge or to punch the person, but this was seen as a statement of equality. Thus, they argue, by turning the other cheek the persecuted was in effect demanding equality. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_the_other_cheek

James

Steven E. Webster

11-21-2006, 07:49 AM

Friends,

This was an interesting article--make sure you read it to the end.

http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1326724&secid=1

I appreciate that the Gazette did a good job of presenting spokespeople for the various points of view, and not just presenting the Focus on the Family side of this story. Besides the interview with the rep from American Psychological Association, I really liked the lesbian former member of Haggard's church who describes what "treatment" was like--including "exorcism." I gather that belief in demons was a regular part of Haggard's "theology." How did this clown ever get to be President of the National Association of Evangelicals?

Maybe that last remark was too unkind. I gather belief in demons may be a regular part of Pentecostalism and that Haggard appears to be a Pentecostalist in addition to being Evangelical. I'd like to show Pentecostalism respect without having to grant much credit to belief in demons. I'd be happy if their are any Pentecostalists in our group that can enlighten us on this aspect of Pentecostalism.

Seems to me like Soulforce might consider a "Free Ted Haggard" movement to challenge Ted's bondage to a bizzare, irrational cult that practices spiritual abuse against gay people. (By "cult" I don't mean Pentecostalism in general, but the weird system of belief that is apparent in this story of Ted Haggard. Again, I don't mean to pick on Pentecostalism, in particular.)

Steven Webster

Willy

11-21-2006, 12:46 PM

Interesting story about what "turn the other cheek" really meant. It was a challenge, forcing the attacker either back down, humiliate himself or fight. Not quite the display of meek submission and forgiveness that Christians have protrayed through the ages.

Gay people should be challenging Haggard to stop lying.

BruceChris

11-21-2006, 04:44 PM

So the main gay church was founded by a member of a movement that was, and still is very anti-gay, and far more orthodox than progresive in most things. Some MCC's continue to be fairly traditional, which would somehow not seem to be worshiping a God who loves gays, some sort of try to have things a little bit both ways, and some have just become liberal churches, perhaps joining the UCC, like our group did.

Any input from either Pentacostals or MCC'ers out there?

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

Steven E. Webster

11-21-2006, 10:56 PM

Friends,

Didn't mean to suggest in the earlier post that belief in demons characterized all Pentecostals, who are probably as diverse as any body of Christians. It does seem, though, that belief in demons was pretty common in Ted Haggard's church.

Here's another link to a news article (New York Times) that give a little more insight into details of the Haggard case:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/19/us/19haggard.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

It was an interesting point that Haggard's apparent lie to the press triggered his ouster by the "Board of Overseers."

Steven Webster

Willy

11-22-2006, 02:31 AM

That article is typical self-serving evanglical hogwash. I think the wingnut pastor Lou Sheldon inadvertently let the truth slip out (http://thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=13253&print=yes) in an interview that The New York Times chose not to mention.

Excerpt:

Then, as if things could not get worse, there was the disgrace of Sheldon’s own friend and colleague, Rev. Ted Haggard, the Colorado mega-church leader and president of the National Association of Evangelicals, an even bigger pillar of Republican support on the Christian right. Sheldon disclosed that he and “a lot” of others knew about Haggard’s homosexuality “for awhile ... but we weren’t sure just how to deal with it.”

Months before a male prostitute publicly revealed Haggard’s secret relationship with him, and the reverend’s drug use as well, “Ted and I had a discussion,” explained Sheldon, who said Haggard gave him a telltale signal then: “He said homosexuality is genetic. I said, no it isn’t. But I just knew he was covering up. They need to say that.”

The point is this: As long as no one knew about it, the wingnuts were all too happy to play along with Ted's charade. Only when it became a p.r. problem did they take any action. Typical for these people.

NathanATX

11-22-2006, 09:37 AM

I'm very glad my MCC church is progressive & liberal. One of our tenets is that it's more important for us to be together than it is for us to believe the same. We have people from all the different Christian traditions and we don't just welcome the differences, we honor them. You'll see elements of many Chrisitian traditions in our services.

At my church, it's safe to be a trinitarian and it's safe to question Jesus' divinity.

For me, the most incredible gift that MCC churches have to offer isn't a welcome to GLBT people, it's a new vision for what it means to be a "church without walls." It's about calling Christians to truly live the way Jesus lived. It's about tearing down walls of fear, separation, mistrust, & strife. It's about honoring Jesus' greatest commandment: Love God with everything you are and love your neighbor in the same way you love yourself.

mtatum4496

11-22-2006, 11:08 AM

Along with the MCC, there is a relatively new denomination that has started up the last few years. The name of the denomination is the International Christian Community Churches.

There is a small congregation of this church in my town, as well as an MCC congregation. I've had the pleasure to visit both, and had a great time.

Does anyone else here have experience with an ICCC congregation?

Daniel

01-23-2007, 10:58 PM

What's that old saying? Truth is stranger than fiction?

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2813078&page=1

Ted Haggard Says Evangelicals Have the 'Best Sex Life'
Former Evangelical President Talks Frankly About Sex in a New Documentary by Alexandra Pelosi

Alexandra Pelosi's documentary, "Friends of God," profiles evangelical Christians. (ABCNEWS.com)

Jan. 22, 2007 — Much has been made of America's so-called religious divide, but few of the discussions and debates resemble Alexandra Pelosi's new film, "Friends of God."

The HBO documentary shows the Rev. Ted Haggard, the former president of the National Association of Evangelicals, talking frankly about how evangelical Christians have sex more than any other religious group.

andrewlittle

01-24-2007, 10:17 AM

I must have busy daydreaming about the sex, since I don't get it often enough, evidently.

I can see a new church growth marketing ploy coming out of this:

Real Christians don't need Viagra.
If you want good sex, become evangelical.
Nothing's quite as exciting as beating someone over the head with a Bible.
[Background audio]
(swat) Ooooh - oh, yeaaah (swat) - just once more - (swat) - Oh My God, I'm Becoming.
Only through right belief, men, can you enjoy great sex - you know, the kind God has said is righteous.
Beat your wife unconscious with the Bible, all the while rightly believing she's just a recepticle for that oh-so-holy member of yours, and you can get off whenever you want.
And if you have some mild disfunction - well, just reread the passages about those perverts time and again while thanking God for white, male supremecy and fantasizing about your favorite boy-toy.
[Background audio]
(swat) Ooooh - oh, yeaaah (swat) - just once more - (swat) - Oh My God, I'm Becoming - again.
Oh my, I can feel the Spirit moving in me right now. Oh, yes...
And, remember, God made you in His image, right down to that piece of meat we worship.
Don't feel shy about it, after all, God has a penis, too. That's what makes Him God.
So, if you don't have sex often enough - if it isn't righteous sex - you ain't believing right. Come visit us soon and find out how we can make you a bigger tool for God.

andrewlittle

01-24-2007, 11:04 AM

really! Andrew! sick! The less reason I have to think about them ... doing... that. the better.

Okay, perhaps it was a little over the top for a group who is more sexually inhibited, more puritanical, than us CC's.

But, we can't really let another group's sexual hang-ups prohibit us from experiencing the fullness of our relationship with the LUVING God, can we? No! Let's stand up for our rights.

For a modest LUV offering of only one hundred fifty dollars ... (what? he raised his prices?) sorry, two hundred dollars ... we'll send you this bumper sticker
HUMP, IF YOU LOVE JESUS

and you'll also get - absolutely free - a copy of "Is That a Fish in Your Pocket, or Are You Just Glad to Meet Jesus" co-written by Ted Haggard and Jimmy Swaggert.

And remember, you can always find us at 'www.beaputzforchrist.com' for more creative ways to minister through your sexual proclivities.
Mirror sites can be found at 'www.humpingforholiness.edu', 'www.bangingforblessedness.com' and 'www.doggingfordivinity.org'

Daniel

01-24-2007, 01:02 PM

Well.....in keeping with the theme....

Thought a little context might be interesting.

http://kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html#homosexuality

54% of men think about sex everyday or several times a day, 43% a few times per month or a few times per week, and 4% less than once a month (Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, Michaels, 1994).

19% of women think about sex everyday or several times a day, 67% a few times per month or a few times per week, and 14% less than once a month (Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, Michaels, 1994).

Andrew......seeing that you've more than filled your quota for the day...no more thoughts about sex for a least a week. :eek:

An then there is this interesting survey-

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/News/story?id=156921&page=1

Churchgoers
Religiosity guides sexual attitudes and behavior, with stark contrasts particularly between weekly churchgoers (a third of adults) and those who attend church infrequently or not at all (the "unchurched," about half).

Attitudinally, most weekly churchgoers say premarital sex and homosexuality are not acceptable; most infrequent attenders hold the opposite view. Ten percent of weekly churchgoers say sex without an emotional attachment is acceptable; it's 36 percent among the unchurched.

Behaviorally, weekly churchgoers are less likely than the unchurched to watch sexually explicit movies, to have had sex on a first date, to have looked at a pornographic Web site, had rebound sex, had a threesome or had sex outdoors. They're less likely to say they've cheated on a spouse. And weekly churchgoers have had half as many lifetime sex partners (an average of eight, median three) as have the unchurched (average of 16, median seven).

At the same time, more than four in 10 weekly churchgoers discuss their sexual fantasies with their partners to enhance their sex lives, think about sex daily, and have had sex outdoors; and just over a third describe themselves as sexually adventurous. Weekly churchgoers are as satisfied as the unchurched with their sex lives, and 10 points more likely to be very satisfied with their marriage or relationship.

Churchgoers vs Others

Attend church week.....Few times/month.....Less often-never

Homosexuality is OK .....31% .....57.....70

Visited porn site .....10.....19.....29

First-date sex.....14.....35.....37

Discuss fantasies.....45.....58.....52

Region
There are some differences by region, largely informed by religiosity — Southerners are more apt to be weekly churchgoers. Seventy-one percent in the Northeast and two-thirds in the West say sex before marriage is OK; fewer Southerners, 54 percent, agree. Northeasterners and Westerners are more apt to call themselves adventurous sexually and to say homosexuality is OK. And when it comes to being very satisfied with their sex lives, only in the Midwest does a majority give the thumbs up.

Ideology/Politics
Political ideology follows a similar pattern as religious observance — like weekly churchgoers, conservatives are more conservative sexually, liberals less so. That makes sense, not least because conservatives are more frequent churchgoers.

Conservatives are far less likely to accept premarital sex or homosexuality, and half as likely as liberals to say sex without an emotional attachment is OK. They're less apt to have had rebound sex, to call themselves sexually adventurous, to watch sexually explicit movies, to discuss their fantasies, to have had sex outdoors, to have had sex on a first date or to have visited a porn site. At the same time, conservatives are slightly more likely than others to be very satisfied with their relationship and sex lives. Liberals, for their part, are more apt to be sexually adventurous.

In a presidential election year, it's tough not to look at political groups, even though differences here likely are standing in for other factors, such as sex, age, marital status and religiosity. With that proviso, Republicans are around 10 points more likely than Democrats to think about sex daily, to be very satisfied with their marriages and sex lives and to wear something sexy to spice things up; and less likely to say they've cheated. In a more directly political context, Republicans are less apt to say premarital sex is OK, and 20 points less likely to say homosexuality is OK for some people.

Others
There's a trove of other data in this survey. One result debunks the notion that parents of young children have sex less often; in fact the opposite is so, probably because parents of young kids are themselves young, and sexually active young adults have sex more often.

"Blondes have more fun" also goes the way of myth, at least sexually speaking: Blondes are no more apt than others to express satisfaction or excitement with their sex lives. Indeed blondes are a little less likely than other women to always have an orgasm, and a little more likely to have faked it.

Americans say they're more likely to have sex late at night (44 percent) than any other time of day. Three-quarters have no preference as to weekend or weekday sex, while 22 percent do say they're more apt to have sex on weekends. ("Twice on Sundays," one respondent quipped.)

About a fifth of adults, 22 percent, sleep in the nude. As noted, men are more than twice as apt as women to do so. People who are less inhibited generally also are more apt to sleep in the buff, including those (disproportionately men) who describe themselves as sexually adventurous, who've had more than 10 sex partners in their lives, who've had sex on a first date, who fantasize and who call their sex lives very exciting.

Asked their sexual orientation, five percent describe themselves as either homosexual or bisexual. As noted, there's a broad difference among groups on whether homosexuality is "OK for some people." Overall 55 percent say it is, including 65 percent of young adults (and 70 percent of young singles), compared with 40 percent of seniors.

Finally, a sex survey can't be complete without a mention of Viagra and similar drugs. Six percent of sexually active Americans say they or their partner take such medications, with its use rising sharply after age 50. Among men 50 and over, 17 percent — one in six — get a little help.

I find the wording I've put in bold above interesting: churchgoers are less likely to say they've cheated on a spouse.

Doesn't mean they haven't.

But the thing that stood out the most for me here was that those who attended church only a few times a month were more likely to discuss their fantasies than either those who didn't go to church or those that did religiously.

Curious. I wonder why that is?

andrewlittle

01-24-2007, 01:54 PM

Held following public and private censure from arch-ethicist, davidcom.

andrewlittle: It has come to my attention that there have been some questionable posts that some unscrupulous GLBT activists have credited to me. To the best of my recollection, I have never …

[Whispering from davidcom] Andy, you put your name on the posts.
Everyone knows it was, in fact, you.

andrewlittle: Really, … hmmm.
[Back at the microphone] Well, as I was saying, my posts have obviously been misconstrued and intentionally misinterpreted by some nefarious malcontents, who seem to have inferred some kind of sick humor into what are otherwise serious and erudite posts about current …

[Whispering, again, davidcom]: Oh, come on, Andy, you sick weasel. Those were disgusting and you know it. Have some spine you maladjusted little pervert.

andrewlittle: Fine, damnit.
[Back at the microphone] As I was about to say, I have been battling all my life with the evil of a sardonic sense of humor. I have tried all manner of therapies to rid me of this dark side of my nature, but have succumbed yet again. I have even tried such extreme measures as humor aversion therapy but, since I found them to be hilarious, they have not worked.
As you can plainly see, it’s not my fault. I am possessed by the Demon of Mirth, and ask your prayers for a speedy recovery from …

[No longer bothering to whisper, davidcom]: Oh, for God’s sake, get a straight jacket. This one’s done. Turn him over. (Damn, those unfortunate openings.)

In other news …
Davidcom, the man accused of beating to near death, with a Bible, one andrewlittle in a fit of utter disgust, testified on his own behalf …

Jamie McDaniel

01-26-2007, 03:45 PM

I just found out about the Friends of God documentary and was reading about it. Then I saw Daniel had already posted about it here three days ago. (As well as some fascinating commentary from Andrew!)

I missed the premiere. It was last night on HBO. But here is a very interesting article from Newsweek. (And even more interesting is the title, Daniel. Weren't we just talking about this (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?p=18804#post18804)?!)

When Not All Publicity Is Good Publicity (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16792629/site/newsweek/)

Best part is when Falwell finds out after the interview that she is Nancy Pelosi's daughter.

Is it true that Falwell wasn’t aware who your mother was until after your interview with him?
That was great. I was sitting in his trailer, I had just done the whole interview with him, and when I turned the camera off, his son came up and told him. And he just said [in a deep voice], “Your mother is very bright; she’s very smart, but very wrong.” And then I was kicked out of his trailer. That was actually the only time in a year and a half that my last name came into play.

Also, about those young men in the documentary standing next to Haggard and claiming they have sex with their wives every night. I somehow managed to wait until I was 30 before my first time and then a few months later Chris came along and received the full brunt of all those years of pent up, self and pixel-assisted-fantasy fulfilled sexuality. And even then the occasion of our woo-hoo wasn't every... single... day! (It was actually every other day for the first six months, then changed to twice a week, then every five or six days, then... OH! I'm telling all my secrets now, girls!) :lol: :o

Maybe they are telling the truth, but I am left wondering if there is something about modern day American evangelism that, in some way, encourages masquerading or at least exaggeration due to the "we have the answers about God and life" approach. I mean, if you have the answers about sex, you're going to feel a need to say you have the best sex. If you have the answers about God, you're going to feel the need to say you have a great relationship with God. If you have the answers about...

NathanATX

01-27-2007, 01:23 AM

What's that old saying? Truth is stranger than fiction?

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2813078&page=1

I can't wait to watch this...

Emproph

01-27-2007, 05:04 AM

Friends of God documentary... I missed the premiere. It was last night on HBO. But here is a very interesting article from Newsweek. (And even more interesting is the title, Daniel. Weren't we just talking about this (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?p=18804#post18804)?!)
'Sher that wasn't about Paula Abdul? :dollar: (< my 2¢ but I didn't have change..)

When Not All Publicity Is Good Publicity (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16792629/site/newsweek/)
Jamie you have killed a cliche'. You have the power to kill cliche's. And now so do I. The next time I hear someone say, "hark, there's no such thing as bad publicity." I'll say, ..Ted Haggard? With that little questioning lilt like that too so it comes across as non-offensive...

No one will ever get away with that cliche' within earshot of me, ever again :laughing:. For the record I'm not judging him I'm judging the "situation." :sleep:
~~
Anyway, I clicked on the link and I “ate the whole thing.” I never read the whole thing, but this time I did. BTW I just watched Jesus Camp too, with the infamous “I know what you did last night” line. Who knew he’d be the gift that keeps on giving.

{sidebar] I don’t mean to disparage the movie or even him because of that, it/he was just a small part of it. I agreed with most of the fervent faith part as far as the miraculous power of God/Jesus. It was the political “indoctrination” if you will, that was disturbing. I don’t think they see the difference. [end sidebar}

They don’t seem to have a problem praying for God’s will to be done though. We should encourage that.
~~
I’ve always wondered about the exploitation aspect of documentaries like these, and how it’s viewed by the participants. She seems rather candid in the interview, and not necessarily flatteringly so. So those last couple lines struck me as particularly haunting as I take her at her word.

How did your subject respond when you showed up, camera in hand? Did they believe you were sincere in your intentions?

[Pause] I’d say they were very Christian about it. I didn’t get nearly as much resistance as you’d expect. I think evangelicals would get much more resistance if they came to New York than I got going there. We’re much more judgmental. Also, I’m not Tom Brokaw. I wasn’t airlifted in for an afternoon. Sometimes I spent a week talking to people so they were comfortable with me before I pulled out my camera. And don’t forget that their job is to evangelize. It’s their job to spread the word.

As though "proving" everyone else wrong is their calling. I’m starting to think there’s something to this whole non-violent thing.
~~
"Sometimes I spent a week talking to people so they were comfortable with me before I pulled out my camera."

Something about that screams empowering, we can at least agree with them that God’s Will be done.

~~

PS re: There's no such thing as bad publicity...

Well, it was good while it lasted. :'(

NOW IT'S EVEN BETTER!

:lol: :rofl: :weee: :agree: :laughing: :lol:

Daniel

01-27-2007, 06:41 PM

Also, about those young men in the documentary standing next to Haggard and claiming they have sex with their wives every night. I somehow managed to wait until I was 30 before my first time and then a few months later Chris came along and received the full brunt of all those years of pent up, self and pixel-assisted-fantasy fulfilled sexuality. And even then the occasion of our woo-hoo wasn't every... single... day! (It was actually every other day for the first six months, then changed to twice a week, then every five or six days, then... OH! I'm telling all my secrets now, girls!) :lol: :o

Maybe they are telling the truth, but I am left wondering if there is something about modern day American evangelism that, in some way, encourages masquerading or at least exaggeration due to the "we have the answers about God and life" approach. I mean, if you have the answers about sex, you're going to feel a need to say you have the best sex. If you have the answers about God, you're going to feel the need to say you have a great relationship with God. If you have the answers about...

And I thought I was a late bloomer! :rolleyes: 30.....you waited until 30!!!!??? If memory serves me at my advanced age, my first wasn't really my first: I was accosted in the middle of night during my first choir tour at Evangel, then had a very brief eye-opening affair sex...I mean six.. years later which was followed by my first real boyfriend a year and a half after that, which takes me up the age of 28.

There Jamie...you're not alone and if you try to delete your post you'll have to delete mine too since I quoted you! :lol:

Such is the power of ignorance and internalized homophobia? Then again, maybe we were both waiting for the right man. ;) (But I am fudging a bit putting it that way- Mr. Really Right came along later....)

Your point about evangelicals having to prove that they are having the best of everything- including sex- certainly casts a light on minds that are hostage to their own notions of holiness as well as the minisrations of madison avenue.

It also crossed my mind that Haggard & Co's boast amounts to the preoccupation of gay men who aren't getting any- but are thinking about it every day.

NathanATX

01-28-2007, 01:29 AM

You guys have me in tears... :lol: :lol: :lol:

scott snedeker

01-28-2007, 01:36 AM

Andy I laughed so hard I had to change my pajamas!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

scorpiogirl

01-30-2007, 11:31 AM

Hi,
New here and I thought I might add this since no one else had posted this yet. Seems Mike Jones visited New Life Church over the weekend. It's on the Huffington Post as well as some other sites. I'd link it but I'm not sure how that works yet. :o

Daniel

01-30-2007, 12:03 PM

Hi scorpiogirl. Cancerboy (me) thanks you for the head's up. The original article is here:

http://test.denverpost.com/ci_5107908

How to do it? Copy and paste the address into your post.

scorpiogirl

01-30-2007, 12:23 PM

Thanks Daniel :)

Has anyone heard anything new about his "restoration"?

Sharone

02-01-2007, 07:32 PM

I have to say that it was interesting to see his response to the church. He said it lacked realism. So true of so many mainline churches nowadays. They are so caught up in what's "right" and "moral" that they forget that Jesus hung out with prostitutes, tax collectors, and thieves! The gospel isn't for the saved.

scorpiogirl

02-01-2007, 10:19 PM

I agree Sharone. We have our own New Life here in Louisville- Southeast Christian. Depending on who you talk to it has between 18-22,000 members. I've talked to so many who have gone and they say that it's nothing more than a social networking place. While I don't want to put a blanket statement over eveyone that attends a mega church, it does seem to me that God gets lost in the production of it all.

Daniel

02-06-2007, 09:23 AM

http://www.365gay.com/Newscon07/02/020507hamov.htm

Haggard Leaves Town
by 365Gay.com Newscenter Staff

Posted: February 6, 2007 - 12:01 am ET

(Colorado Springs, Colorado) Ted Haggard, one of the most powerful evangelical pastors in the country until it was disclosed he had frequented a male prostitute and had purchased methamphetamine, is packing up and leaving Colorado Springs to begin a new life with his wife.

"Jesus is starting to put me back together," Haggard wrote in an email he sent to his former parishioners at the 14,000-member New Life Church he had founded.

"I have spent so much time in repentance, brokenness, hurt and sorrow for the things I've done and the negative impact my actions have had on others. That sadness continues as my family and I, along with so many others, go through the painful consequences of my actions."

In his email Haggard said he and his wife would pursue psychology degrees.

For the past three months he has been undergoing what he calls "counseling" at an undisclosed location in Arizona.

"Thankfully, with the tools we gained there, along with the powerful way God has been illuminating His Word and the Holy Spirit has been convicting and healing me, we now have growing understanding which is giving me some hope for a future," he said in the email.

Study psychology? He'll need it. But not for the reason he thinks.

novaseeker

02-06-2007, 09:26 AM

For the past three months he has been undergoing what he calls "counseling" at an undisclosed location in Arizona.

I presume this is a reference to one of Dobson's "re-education camps"?:confused:

Sharone

02-06-2007, 12:16 PM

Just saw this on CNN's website. Bless his heart. He thinks having sex with one man outside of his marriage was just "acting out". Hmmm.
Three weeks of intense counseling and he's healed! Hallelujah. :confused:
Sharone

DENVER, Colorado (AP) -- One of four ministers who oversaw three weeks of intensive counseling for the Rev. Ted Haggard said the disgraced minister emerged convinced that he is "completely heterosexual."

Haggard also said his sexual contact with men was limited to the former male prostitute who came forward with sexual allegations, the Rev. Tim Ralph of Larkspur told The Denver Post for a story in Tuesday's edition.

"He is completely heterosexual," Ralph said. "That is something he discovered. It was the acting-out situations where things took place. It wasn't a constant thing."

Ralph said the board spoke with people close to Haggard while investigating his claim that his only extramarital sexual contact happened with Mike Jones. The board found no evidence to the contrary.

"If we're going to be proved wrong, somebody else is going to come forward, and that usually happens really quickly," he said. "We're into this thing over 90 days and it hasn't happened."

Haggard resigned as president of the National Association of Evangelicals last year after allegations of sexual misconduct surfaced. He was also forced out from the 14,000 New Life Church that he founded years ago in his basement after Jones alleged Haggard paid him for sex and sometimes used methamphetamine when they were together. Haggard, who is married, has publicly admitted to "sexual immorality." (Gallery)

Haggard said in an e-mail Sunday, his first communication in three months to church members, that he and his wife, Gayle, plan to pursue master's degrees in psychology. The e-mail said the family hasn't decided where to move but that they were considering Missouri and Iowa.

Another oversight board member, the Rev. Mike Ware of Westminster, said the group recommended the move out of town and the Haggards agreed.

"This is a good place for Ted," Ware said. "It's hard to heal in Colorado Springs right now. It's like an open wound. He needs to get somewhere he can get the wound healed."

It was also the oversight board that strongly urged Haggard to go into secular work.

scorpiogirl

02-06-2007, 12:27 PM

That quick eh? Wasn't this supposed to take three to five years????

I don't know if I should feel sorry for this man and all the self-loathing he's gone through, or punch him for all the hurtful things he's said about the gay community.

The blogs are having a field day over this by the way:
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/ (and scroll down a bit)

revtj

02-06-2007, 12:51 PM

POOF: You're Straight!

Now, how do you test it to see if the cure worked? Should be interesting therapy!

Sharone

02-06-2007, 04:57 PM

I heard that! If all it took was 3 weeks of counseling, we'd all be straight! I went to counseling for months!

scott snedeker

02-06-2007, 05:05 PM

What a moron!

tdogg

02-06-2007, 05:49 PM

First, I'd like to say I agree with those who feel some sympathy towards Mr. Haggard. Especially now that he is 'supposedly cured' - I think now is the perfect time to send more letters. Except his 'protectors' probably wouldn't let the letters get to Ted. They must really watch over him, so they can prove he is 'cured'. It's a tragic shame for all involved.

Second, I'm wondering if perhaps, based on the stats of sexual thinking, if I'm not actually a boy trapped in a lesbian's body??? Ok, probably TMI...

Finally, regarding the questions of Pentecostals and belief in demons - as I was raised in a Pentecostal environment and have Pentecostal relatives, I can tell you demon belief is alive and well in that sect. Pentecostals are comprised of about 4 or 5 different sects that have similar foundational beliefs but differing minute detail beliefs. Those I am familiar with (mainly of the Assemblies of God sect), belief in demons, and that belief goes anywhere from me personally being controlled by the devil and his demons as indicated in my being a lesbian in a relationship with another woman, to every single possible bad thing that can happen is a result of demonism (exampled, even the flue is caused by influence of a demon). So, for one to show they are truly saved and devout Pentecostal believers, you better not even catch the flu.

The speakers I've heard on this, including various relatives, really truly belief in the demon thing. Apparently they do not believe 'their' Jesus or their 'God' can save anyone from being controlled by these horrible sinful creatures. Therefore, they must always be on their toes, walking on eggshells and keeping track of their Christian cohorts, lest they or their loved ones come into contact with a person's demon(s) and they 'catch' what that particular demon is all about.

I've never studied this in detail and don't know all that much about it, other than what I've heard in various churches and from the people I know. It's quite frightening and a little 'sick' if you ask me...

Friends,

This was an interesting article--make sure you read it to the end.

http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1326724&secid=1

I appreciate that the Gazette did a good job of presenting spokespeople for the various points of view, and not just presenting the Focus on the Family side of this story. Besides the interview with the rep from American Psychological Association, I really liked the lesbian former member of Haggard's church who describes what "treatment" was like--including "exorcism." I gather that belief in demons was a regular part of Haggard's "theology." How did this clown ever get to be President of the National Association of Evangelicals?

Maybe that last remark was too unkind. I gather belief in demons may be a regular part of Pentecostalism and that Haggard appears to be a Pentecostalist in addition to being Evangelical. I'd like to show Pentecostalism respect without having to grant much credit to belief in demons. I'd be happy if their are any Pentecostalists in our group that can enlighten us on this aspect of Pentecostalism.

Seems to me like Soulforce might consider a "Free Ted Haggard" movement to challenge Ted's bondage to a bizzare, irrational cult that practices spiritual abuse against gay people. (By "cult" I don't mean Pentecostalism in general, but the weird system of belief that is apparent in this story of Ted Haggard. Again, I don't mean to pick on Pentecostalism, in particular.)

Steven Webster

scorpiogirl

02-06-2007, 05:59 PM

I heard that! If all it took was 3 weeks of counseling, we'd all be straight! I went to counseling for months!

You went through counseling? I'm sorry you had to go through all that.:'(

Also about Haggard and his magic gay cure...if this is something he's been at war with "all his adult life", and Dobson backed out because he didn't have the time, then how all of a sudden is he cured after three weeks of therapy!?!!?? I've been reading a lot of comments on different blogs and everyone seems to be saying the same thing: it's BS.

Tdogg: Part of me does agree that we should reach out, but I doubt he'd be interested in listening. He obviously didn't paid attention to the letters Soulforce sent out earlier when this first broke. *sigh* Maybe one day he'll see the light.

tdogg

02-06-2007, 06:47 PM

Tdogg: Part of me does agree that we should reach out, but I doubt he'd be interested in listening. He obviously didn't paid attention to the letters Soulforce sent out earlier when this first broke. *sigh* Maybe one day he'll see the light.

Sadly, I think that's the best we can hope for. Perhaps one day in his personal struggles he will remember those who did reach out, know there is a safe place to go, and finally get to the task of discovering himself. He might be interested in listening, but I fear he has surrounded himself with people who will make sure he cannot hear.

scorpiogirl

02-06-2007, 06:58 PM

Sadly, I think that's the best we can hope for. Perhaps one day in his personal struggles he will remember those who did reach out, know there is a safe place to go, and finally get to the task of discovering himself. He might be interested in listening, but I fear he has surrounded himself with people who will make sure he cannot hear.

I agree. If this does happen one day I hope that there will be people who will listen and be supportive without being judgmental, because there is such anger directed at him from what I've read just today (and I include myself in that category). He's wounded a lot of people, some of whom he's never met, and those wounds won't just magically go away.

ladyinred

02-06-2007, 10:49 PM

LOL Andrew, makes me think that those evangelicals are sex addicts and may need a little psychological help... Yes and you are right women are not just receptacles. But according to the religious right, man rules over the woman, and she best be submissive... Of course after reading about how they promote sexual virility among men(actually saying guys get yours and go for it, and scold women for using birth control.. I guess women don't really count as human beings either.. At least Andrew sees the light.

ladyinred

02-06-2007, 11:06 PM

Yep the guy definitely has a sense of humor, perhaps not like you or me. but he definitely has a style of his own..:D

Daniel

02-07-2007, 12:04 AM

It's not about sex. It's not about gay or straight. This whole matter is about conformity and fear. Fear most of all. I fear for Haggarts life. The swath of destruction that he will create and cause by this ignorant assertion will be horrific- not only to himself- but to everyone around him.

scorpiogirl

02-07-2007, 08:00 AM

I thought I'd post Peterson Toscano's thoughts on all of this.

For those that don't know about him he was in ex-gay therapy for a number of years, but is now out and healthy.

http://a_musing.blogspot.com/

TigerXero

02-07-2007, 03:44 PM

Are you convinced Ted Haggard is "completely heterosexual"?

No 72%
Who knows? 22%
Yes 6%
Total Votes: 164,491

Via AOL online poll.

Zerbie

02-07-2007, 07:37 PM

An undisclosed location outside of Phoenix?! You mean - they sent him HERE?!! Agh!!!! :eek:

'scuse me while I wig out about that. It's just, I know there is a reparative therapist about 8 miles from my house who sees exclusively homosexual men who are trying to go straight. I think it's creepy.

OK: Interjection over with. :rolleyes:

Sharone

02-07-2007, 09:35 PM

Maybe Ted should have been in the Snickers commercial played during the Superbowl! Oh wait, he would have had to kiss another man. I forgot...He's cured!
SMILE

NathanATX

02-07-2007, 11:00 PM

Steven E. Webster

02-10-2007, 08:50 AM

Friends,

One of the TV shows I often watch is "Law & Order". The program often creates fictional situations out of topical issues in the recent news. Last night the episode opened with the murder of a young gay man who turns out to have been a prostitute (in addition to being an aspiring actor). There was an attempt to make the murder look like suicide and a bible is found on the scene open to Leviticus with yellow highlighter on the passage about a man lying with a man being "abomination."

Anyway, by the end of the hour we discover that the murderer is the wife of a wealthy and popular Evangelical pastor. The Evangelical pastor had had an affair with the prostitute (he likes his sex served up with meth) while at the same time preaching against homosexuals. The prostitute threatens to expose him because of his hypocritical preaching. The wife of the pastor kills the prostitute to protect "her church." Eventually the pastor (who was the main suspect) hangs himself in his jail cell leaving a suicide note confessing to the murder to protect the wife. However, the DA discovers that the pastor had lied about an air tight alibi (he was visiting a sick parishoner in hospital at the time of the murder) and police attention turns to the wife who finally confesses.

Now "Law and Order" is almost always about murder--so if they were going to write about Ted Haggard fictionally they would have to make it about murder. Otherwise, I found the story a clear and very negative comment on Ted Haggard and fundamentalist homophobia in general. One might question how fair it was to characterize the main character's church as a greedy "business enterprise." It was also not enough to describe the evangelical pastor as a closeted homosexual, it turns out his wife also had a background of drug use and prostitution.

I couldn't help chiming in with the words "I'm completely heterosexual" while the pastor in the "Law & Order" episode defends himself. Good timing of "Law & Order" to come out with this just as Ted Haggard comes out with this latest tid bit in the media.

scorpiogirl

02-10-2007, 09:39 AM

Here's Jon Stewart's take on Ted's resortation. Watch it while you can because YouTube is taking down Daily Show clips per a request from Comedy Central.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nOfEhOGC0Y

Enjoy! :lol:

scorpiogirl

02-15-2007, 10:38 AM

Here's an interesting editorial I found on Ted. It's written by a woman who went to high school with him and gives an interesting perspective on the person he used to be then.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070215/EDIT01/702150323/1090

Jamie McDaniel

02-15-2007, 05:46 PM

That was a fascinating read, scorpiogirl. For some reason, however, the link you posted cuts the story off. Here is the full version.

Haggard has fresh chance to right wrongs (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070215/EDIT01/702150323/1020/all)

Daniel

02-15-2007, 06:49 PM

Really interesting article. Thanks for posting it. Makes me think that the path of our lives is often set for us- that is- if we make choices which circumvent that which calls for us to be authentic.

scorpiogirl

02-16-2007, 07:34 AM

Thanks for posting the full length version Jamie. It wasn't like that when I posted it but for some reason the site cut part of it off.

I think the question she poses is an interesting one: how would things be different for him today if he had made a different choice? It's fascinating how one single decision can change the course of your entire life.

I'm glad that she wrote this editorial, because this really puts a lot of things in perspective.

u-dog

02-16-2007, 08:05 AM

It also raises the question of where Ted will go with his life once it becomes clear to him that his three-week "cure" is just repression. I can imagine that when his elaborately constructed "cathedral of denial" once and for all shatters and collapses that the young idealist may re-emerge. IF that were to happen then Ted could be a POWERFUL voice for change in this country. We should all be careful not to isolate or ridicule Ted. We have no idea what God is doing in and with his life. Do we? I mean look at all the Bozos and ne'erdowells in the Bible that God uses to Bless his people. Moses the excuse maker, Jacob the trickster, Gideon the smallest of the small, David the adulterer and murderer, Saul the persecuter, the list goes on and on.

scorpiogirl

02-16-2007, 04:54 PM

I agree u-dog. I've been wondering myself if the "I'm cured" line is really just his way of getting out of the oppressive therapy, and to a place where he can really examine his life. I think that's just my wishful thinking though....I was really hoping he would come out of this renouncing his old homophobic ways.

Ted could be a powerful voice for the community if things were to change, but my concern is who would believe or trust him? Some people may look at him as someone who needs the limelight, and now that he has been outed, he will take whatever he can get.

Jamie McDaniel

02-20-2007, 12:19 AM

An interview with Alexandra Pelosi on her documentary Friends of God. The interview focuses largely on her getting to know Ted Haggard. She mentions that Mel White was in her film, which I didn't know.

When Ms. Pelosi talked to Mr. Haggard (http://www.planetout.com/news/feature.html?sernum=3305&navpath=/news/)

scorpiogirl

02-20-2007, 06:58 AM

Thanks for posting that Jamie!

Interesting to note his comment on Civil Unions. More and more I get the impression that he was at war with himself over whether to accept himself or not. *Sigh*

I saw the program when it first aired in January, and Mel is in it only for a few minutes towards the end of the program.

Diane Vera

03-02-2007, 08:49 PM

On page 3 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1488&page=3) of this thread, Eugene wrote, back on 11-05-2006:

Besides, I don't see that a "slight shift" in belief is necessary for changing from conservative evangelical to gay evangelical. I'm still working through the changes in my theology. And I wouldn't call the theology I've encountered in the gay church a "slight shift" from conservative evangelicalism. It's more like a continental divide.

I've replied in the separate thread Conservative evangelical theology vs. gay evangelical theology? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2307), to avoid derailing this thread.

Diane Vera

03-03-2007, 04:37 PM

Below are some posts from this (thread (Evangelical Leader Steps Down in Alleged Gay Affair (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1488)), to which I've decided to reply in the separate thread GLBT-friendly Christians and belief in Satan, demons, and angels? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2311)

* post #87 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=14534&postcount=87), 11-12-2006, on page 5 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1488&page=5), by Daniel
* post #114 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=14909&postcount=114), 11-21-2006, on page 6 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1488&page=6) of that thread, by Steven E. Webster
* post #144 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=19714&postcount=144), 02-06-2007, on page 8 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1488&page=8), by tdogg

I replied to all the above in post #4 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=21518&postcount=4) in the thread GLBT-friendly Christians and belief in Satan, demons, and angels? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2311).

Jamie McDaniel

06-24-2007, 09:26 PM

Mike Jones' book is out.

I Had to Say Something: The Art of Ted Haggard's Fall (http://www.amazon.com/I-Had-Say-Something-Haggards/dp/1583227687/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-5945769-1893516?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182736858&sr=8-2)

I almost always like play on words, but I don't think the subtitle works in that it doesn't seem to be able to stand on its own without knowledge of the name. (If you recall, Art was the name Ted gave to Jones). I think the main title is on the money though.

In an interview with The Portland Mercury (http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/Content?oid=349377&category=34029), Jones has this to say:

A lot of people have given him sympathy and feel sorry for him and where he's at now. Of course I haven't felt the same in return, which I thought was interesting. Even the gay religious group, Soulforce? They mounted a write-in campaign for Haggard, offering him support and peace and blah blah blah, but nobody offered to have a write-in campaign to comfort me at all.

The interviewer asks "Why do you think that is?" to which Jones replies:

I don't know for sure—but I'm guessing if I was this pretty boy, poster child-type of guy, it might be different. But because I was a sex worker...

Hummm. That might be a reason for such a campaign not being appropriate. But what would 300 people write to Jones? Appreciation for coming forward, yes? I don't know what became of those 300 letters sent to Haggard last year, but those pages shared the stories of people, many from evangelical backgrounds, who reconciled their spirituality with their non-heterosexual orientation. And some offered encouragement and challenged Haggard to grow in his understanding from this.

Daniel

03-10-2008, 09:32 AM

http://www.towleroad.com/2008/03/mike-jones.html

Naked B4 God: Ted Haggard Escort Mike Jones Takes the Stage

Mike Jones, the escort who exposed New Life pastor Ted Haggard is taking his story to the stage in a play premiering in Denver entitled Naked B4 God.

Jones told the Rocky Mountain News: "It gives me a chance for people who don't want to spend a lot of time reading the book. It's much bigger than just the headline people saw in the papers...I'm up there actually doing a performance. I actually go through and act out some of the sequences of what I was going through. I just don't stand there and just talk."

Producer Chris Johnson told the paper that the play adds another dimension to Haggard's story:

"It moves into the realm of a national debate, really, touching on the topics of religious hypocrisy, the culture that breeds such secrecy. News stories are kind of ADD, where they move on to the next biggest headline and yesterday's headline is kind of forgotten about. I wanted to bring this story back to life to not necessarily preach to folks but to maintain that dialogue...There's some hesitancy with going with a non-actor for anything theater-related. It's a very big risk, but it's one we're willing to try...We took some test footage of him, and he has a personality and he has some presence onstage. Director Mike Dempsey worked really hard with him to make sure he was able to not only connect with the material, but also to connect with the character...One of the things I'm trying to get out there is, unfortunately, a lot of people see this story and because of the labels that are involved - prostitution, sex, drugs, religion - they think they understand the story based on stereotypes. For Mike, this was a very difficult decision. It's adding insight to the story."

Naked B4 God runs from March 13 - 22 at The Bug Theater in Denver.

http://polimediaent.com/Current%20Projects/naked_b4_god.htm