Worshipping in a Non Affirming Denomination

[mtatum4496]

Hey, everyone.

This is my first post here, and I am hoping to get some counsel from folks who have been where I feel I am going.

For the past several years, I have been a part of an open and affirming denomination. My time there has been very pleasant, and there are many people in my congregation that I enjoy immensely.

Recently, I feel my heart and mind turning back to my former denomination. While it is one that is currently struggling with the place of LGBT persons in the church - and in fact has a half a dozen congregations around the country that are open and affirming, as well as an active LGBT group that holds its own get togethers a couple times a year and is allowed to set up a reference booth and hold worship services at the denominational conference every two years - there is no way I would ever enjoy the same level of open-ness that I have grown accustomed to in my present church home.

Still, I feel a call to go back to a local congregation of my former denomination, and in fact went there this past Sunday and enjoyed communion for the first time in years. Part of me wonders if I am being called back so I can take what I have learned and be one of the voices who speak for total equality in church membership and ministry. Part of me wonders if it is just the traditions of worship and the legacy of happy memories I have of my years in that body that is calling me to look at them again.

I know many LGBT's choose to remain in denominations that are not open and affirming. If there are some people here who have made that choice, would you mind sharing your thoughts with me?

Thanks!

[BruceChris]

I cannot address your question directly, as I have found a very wonderfully open and loving congregation at last, and I hope to never leave. However, I just finished reading a post from a new member, with very much the same concerns. His name is Mike, read his post.

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1503

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Pablo Rafael]

mtatum,

Maybe I can offer a few observations. Though I don't know that your situation and mine are comparable, there may be some similarities. You didn't mention what denomination you former church was. I belong to a denomination (Catholic) that is not very supportive of homosexuality. However, I belong to a parish that is fairly open and accepting. I love the formailty and reverance of the Catholic church. I feel very much at home there. I grew up a Protestant and am a fairly recent convert (5 years). My old church was certainly more anti-gay than the Catholic church, though that is not the reason I left.

Despite the official condemnation of homosexuality, many Catholic parishes are open an affirming. There is a great diversity in the Catholic church.

I have found that no one is greatly bothered by having gay members of the parish as long as we don't make a big deal of it. It is sort of a "Don't ask, don't tell" situation. This may not be the best situation, and it certainly isn't a strong stand against dicrimination of gay individuals. It does seem to be the way the Catholic church deals with us. If someone were to take a strong stand for gay rights in the parish, there might be more conflict. I think maybe a lot depends on the priest as well; our priest is a really cool guy.

My philosophy is to be a strong, well-loved member of the parish. I am also one of the main musicians. We are short of muscians, so I am very much in demand. As people come to know more gay men and women, our visibility increases. Someone posted in this forum a while back something like "It's much harder to hate an individual than a concept." My philosophy is to encourage a slow gradual acceptance of gays by setting a good example. It is a slow process that will probably reap more benefits to the next generation than to mine. Is it the best approach? I can't really say.

If you are comfortable in keeping a low profile, you might do well in a situation similar to mine. I gather from what you wrote that you are more determined to bring about change than I am. Another question would be is how comfortable are you with conflict. I feel that it is easier to bring about change from inside than from without. I hope that those of us who are gay Catholics can change the church from within.

I don't know if this makes any sense. I have a tendency to take a lot of contradictory stands on issues.

Pablo

[ladyinred]

Follow your own heart:pray:

[mtatum4496]

...If you are comfortable in keeping a low profile, you might do well in a situation similar to mine. I gather from what you wrote that you are more determined to bring about change than I am. Another question would be is how comfortable are you with conflict. I feel that it is easier to bring about change from inside than from without. I hope that those of us who are gay Catholics can change the church from within.

I don't know if this makes any sense. I have a tendency to take a lot of contradictory stands on issues.

Pablo

Hi, Pablo - yes, what you write makes perfect sense to me. While the church in question is not Catholic, it is one that is highly liturgical and places a great deal of emphasis on sacramental ordinances in its worship, and has a very well defined organizational structure. For those reasons, much of what you write does have application to my situation.

Part of my wonderings goes back to speculation that I may indeed be sensing a calling to go back and be part of that process of change from within. That is something I am still trying to clarify in my mind.

Thank you for your thoughts. It is nice to have words in front of me that help me remember that others do understand where I am coming from.

[mtatum4496]

I cannot address your question directly, as I have found a very wonderfully open and loving congregation at last, and I hope to never leave. However, I just finished reading a post from a new member, with very much the same concerns. His name is Mike, read his post.

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1503

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

Thank you, Bruce - the thread you referenced does give me food for thought.

[mtatum4496]

Follow your own heart:pray:

When logic fails to cover the entire picture, isn't it wonderul that we have the heart to keep us from getting too bogged down in just one part of the equation?

Perhaps I will need to exercise some patience until heart and head come into closer union on this subject. Since patience is not among my virtues, it might be a good life lesson for me anyway :D

[Willy]

Still, I feel a call to go back to a local congregation of my former denomination, and in fact went there this past Sunday and enjoyed communion for the first time in years. Part of me wonders if I am being called back so I can take what I have learned and be one of the voices who speak for total equality in church membership and ministry. Part of me wonders if it is just the traditions of worship and the legacy of happy memories I have of my years in that body that is calling me to look at them again.

I know many LGBT's choose to remain in denominations that are not open and affirming. If there are some people here who have made that choice, would you mind sharing your thoughts with me?
Stockholm Syndrome + Make It Alright-itis. This reminds me of someone I know who grew up in a very abusive household. She has tried to commit suicide several times, and is (for now) stable on medication. So what does she do? She maintains contact with her parents, including the one who was so abusive. And by maintaining contact, I mean active contact, not just the occasional call. By the way, these same parents have never even acknowledged the abuse, much less apologized to her for it.

She doesn't see what's happening. She's hoping that if she's "nice" and "dutiful," that somehow she can have the loving and normal relationship with her folks that she always wanted. I'm not her shrink, so I don't have the heart to grab her by the shoulders and tell her: You must learn to accept that you were raised by wolves. They are damaged people who will keep on damaging you. So quit trying to make them into the lambs they never were and never will be. I worry that if I tell her that, I might send her back into a spiral. So I don't say it. My tongue is full of holes from the biting I do when I'm with her, but so be it.

But mtatum, you're not that friend. You're somebody on line who I don't know, so I feel freer to tell you what I really think. Here it is: That old congregation hates gay people. Oh, they'll put some sort of lipstick on the pig, but the bottom line is that are not going to accept you unless you renounce yourself. And they'll feel nice and righteous as they make that evil demand. They'll be all smiles, which in my book is the final twist of the knife. Look, it's a free country and you can do whatever you want, but you'd better have a stone-cold talk with yourself and ask if that's what you really want. Don't fool yourself into thinking that they're offering something different.

Self-deception manifests itself in a million ways, and one of them is to mistake neurosis for religious feeling or the calling of your heart. The "heart" thing is especially dangerous, because who can argue against "the heart" except a cynical old curmudgeon like me? It's incredibly tempting to lie to yourself, but it's always so disappointing in the end. The only way to avoid that trap is to see it for what it is. Forgive yourself for being tempted. You're only human. But you've got to wake up, splash some cold water on your face and move on. Really. I'm not saying it's easy, but trust me: You won't regret it.

[mtatum4496]

Willie, you seem to making a couple of assumptions. Allow me to clear them up for you.

From your words, it appears that you are assuming that my former congregation marginalized or coerced me into leaving. In fact, they did not. I left a number of years ago due to doctrinal differences with the direction of the denomination - much of which have been resolved recently. Others in my former congregation also left for similar reasons. As it happens, some of them are drifting back, now that the theological "dust" has settled on those issues.

As an aside on the issue of homosexuality - in my former congregation, there was too much other stuff on the table for it to become a major point of discussion. While it is true there are conservative and moderate members in that congregation, there are also a number of liberals as well. I would not now nor do I think I could in the future paint them all with the same brush and say "that old congregation hates gays". The makeup of the congregation is simply to complex to make so broad a statement.

Second, I have met both ordained and lay LGBT people who belong to denominations that are still struggling with the issue of homosexuality - by struggle I mean really and truly trying to understand. They do not see themselves as victims, nor do they consider themselves to be locked into a pattern of abuse. Instead, they actively engage in the task of sharing who they are, and that they are indeed followers of the Risen Christ.

I have known a number of LGBT persons who have struggled with exactly the same set of circumstances you outline. What you say is very real for a great many people. At the same time, I have seen enough to know there is a broader picture out there.

So, thanks, but I will keep waiting for further light on what part of the vineyard I am called to work in.

[Willy]

Second, I have met both ordained and lay LGBT people who belong to denominations that are still struggling with the issue of homosexuality - by struggle I mean really and truly trying to understand. They do not see themselves as victims, nor do they consider themselves to be locked into a pattern of abuse. Instead, they actively engage in the task of sharing who they are, and that they are indeed followers of the Risen Christ.
People tell themselves all kinds of things to avoid the truth.

[mtatum4496]

People tell themselves all kinds of things to avoid the truth.

Yes, they do - even to the point of convincing themselves that it is okay to stand in judgement and assume a whole congregation is full of hate. I suppose that approach does make it a little easier to wrap that type of bigotry around oneself, as if in a protective cloak, rather than risk finding some good.

It's obvious from your posts that you have been hurt very deeply. Hopefully you will find your healing someday, and no longer feel the need to write off whole groups of people as if they were some homogenous bunch of droids who all think alike and act alike.

[mtatum4496]

I actually feel outside this thread, but I wanted to comment about what one of the "leaders" in that Unitarian community I was trying to be a member of, said ...

She was sorry I could not be "easily assimilated into their way of thinking".

You mention "droids" that all think alike ... that is what I felt like she was implying ... for me to become one of them ... more droid-like.

I'm outside this thread ... so I may resume my input here, as a question elsewhere.

One of the porblems of a closed community, is that they sometimes start thinking alike, bringing them a sense of power. And this "power" gets misused, people get ostrcized, pushed out.

Not my idea of what a God would want for a co-existing, peaceful society.

I hope you find a religious community that is more to your liking ... I have tried, and have probably been too judgmental. Boundaries are difficult for me, especially around controlling women, like those I found at the Unitarian church.

Bill, maybe the fact that I am currently affialited with a UU congregation will help you to feel more at home in this thread.

I can identify with what you say here, in regard to Unitarian Universalist fellowships and congregations. Not so much from personal experience in my congregation, but comments that persons who are or have been associated with UU fellowship have made, as well as some observations on my part when visiting other UU congregations.

There are a few things I learned right off the bat, three years ago, before I "signed the book":

1. Not every UU is as broadminded as the Seven Principles encourage UU's to be - whether the subject is religion or politics. Tht includes people who may hold very strongly to traditional Unitarian or Universalist liberal Christian beliefs. Other UU's hold an almost sacramental belief in the worth of all persons and genuinely strive to look past gender, orientation, past mistakes, etc to see that good.

2. The congregational structure of the Unitarian Universalist Association makes it very easy for each congregation to develop its own flavor - you literally can go to two different congregations and see only a few common elements, if any at all. That can lead to a very open and welcoming congregation that enjoys and appreciates everyone who comes through the door; it also can lead to congregations that turn a cold shoulder to anyone who does not fit some sort of proscribed mold that has become the standard for that congregation.

3. Some UU's love to have new blood and new ideas - some want to maintain the status quo.

4. Some UU's are very self-aggrandizing, very concerned about how high in the pecking order they are in the local church. Others don't give a hoot about position and actively look for the good in anyone who comes through the doors, coz they know it is there.

I have been very lucky in my UU congregation to see a great deal of positive stuff and relatively little of the not so good stuff. It has been a safe place for me to evaluate a number of things, including just exactly what I believe and what of those beliefs I consider foundational to my world view.

At the same time, I have visited other UU congregations that would have had me running at full throttle in the other direction, if that had been my only choice of a place to worship.

When it comes to religious communities, even the most open of them have some boundaries. Let's face it, as individuals, we also set boundaries for ourselves; it is part of what makes us who we are. This is no less true of houses of worship among the many religious organizations. In order for us as individuals to evaluate whether or not an organization is right for us, they have to be able to articulate and demonstrate what they are about.

Based on what you have shared, I would probably have passed right over UUism if I had seen the same sort of thing going on in the local fellowship.

Thank you for your well wishes. I figure things will sort themselves out for me when the time is right. In the meantime, I can keep on doing what I have been doing.

[Willy]

Yes, they do - even to the point of convincing themselves that it is okay to stand in judgement and assume a whole congregation is full of hate. I suppose that approach does make it a little easier to wrap that type of bigotry around oneself, as if in a protective cloak, rather than risk finding some good.
Hey, it's a free country. If you want to go back to that congregation, believe me I ain't stoppin' you. All I'm saying is, "Keep your eyes open." The worst lies are the ones we tell ourselves.