Gay bigots do love homosexuals

[Huggins293]

Although many of those who support anti-gay bigotry are misinformed and misguided, I do think the fatal error we as gay activists make is to assuem all of them hate homsexuals. Our opponents have repeatedly stated that they "love the sinner and hate the sin." It means that although they may respect and love a homsexuals other attributes, they morally object to their homsexual behaviors. As my writings clearly reflect, I do find their "moral" objections based on misguidance and ignorance, however I must contend that it is very possible to have homsexual friends and a homosexual son or daughter and still disapprove of the act. We know that their disapproval is corrupt and we must still protest that but to be fair ot our objectors we should not automatically percieve all anti-gays as haters of homosexuals as indidividuals.

Many of our hetero-sexists brothers and sisters on this board that their message is out of love. I do believe that my hetero-sexists brothers and sisters truly want to save homosexuals from the dangers they perceive of homosexuality. Although, their means is misguided we should consider the possiblity that many heterosexists do have good intentions. We must acknowledge it but still strongly object to their heterosexist views.
Thanks

[Daniel]

I'm being a bit glib in saying this, but the Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions.

I certainly don't mean to be condemnatory of those who have gay siblings, sons or daughters. But for those who dissaprove of the act, isn't that all about the 'ick factor'? And let's be clear here: my parents don't want to think about what I do in bed with my husband. I get that. I also 'get' that I'm not keen on knowing what they do either.

This isn't about gay or straight, it's about what people do with their bodies and unhealthy preoccupations.

I don't assume our straight adversaries 'hate' us. But when someone is beating you with their viewpoint and trying to convince you that it is for your good- ie God doesn't like gay sex (that's what it's really all about actually) and God is on their side and not yours etc etc- we are all supposed to think they have good intentions?

I don't think so.

This is not about sex. This is not about God.

This is about the right of every human being to love who they want to love without anyone telling you who that should be.

The desire to control other people ain't love. And that is what conservatives and Fundies want to do: control everything and everyone so that they feel safe. In the end, their intentions are not about us, but about them.

[scott snedeker]

"I have a friend who is a rump-ranger":lol:

Perhaps response into the ridiculusly ribald might trivialize the all-to-serious concern of the specific gorey details of sex. Let's face it. Sex is disgusting in all but two situations:

Involving yourself or two physically perfect people!

Picture your parents---ok that's enough!

or your grandparents!---stop it pleeeeease!

or two homely obese people!----I think I'm going to faint!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

But to them it is beautiful and the stuff of life.;)

perhaps when you remind them of this they may start to lighten up because they may start to see that everyone is entitled to sex!

And anyone who lived on a farm--as I do now-- will observe that every species engages in same gender sex-----unless they are blind

I have a pea hen (female peacock) who displays her tail (which she does not really have) only to other pea hens! I call her my "bull-dike pea hen"

Again trvializing to the humorusly ribald might break the ice! I'm not saying to be offensive.

I use this tactic when others criticize me to lighten up the situation.

For example when I was driving with my father in the passenger seat and drifted off the road earning me a hot look, I responded with: "I know my driving sucks. I caused every accident that I've been in!" (which is unfortunately true)

Or when arguing with the medical director of the hospital: " But there's something you don't know....... I'm always right!"

Or a neighbor who growled at me because I allowed my dog Muffin to tinkle on the lawn across from his (He thought I let her doggie doo). The next day I carried a ziploc plastic baggie. When I passed him again, the Devil bit me, and I blew up the baggie and held it up for him and proclaimed:

"Muffin only farted today! But I got it!"

I try to communicate the silliness of an insinuation by taking it to a humorus extreme so that we can both laugh at it! --usually works

Scotty:cowboy:

[Giancarlo]

Although many of those who support anti-gay bigotry are misinformed and misguided, I do think the fatal error we as gay activists make is to assuem all of them hate homsexuals. Our opponents have repeatedly stated that they "love the sinner and hate the sin." It means that although they may respect and love a homsexuals other attributes, they morally object to their homsexual behaviors. As my writings clearly reflect, I do find their "moral" objections based on misguidance and ignorance, however I must contend that it is very possible to have homsexual friends and a homosexual son or daughter and still disapprove of the act. We know that their disapproval is corrupt and we must still protest that but to be fair ot our objectors we should not automatically percieve all anti-gays as haters of homosexuals as indidividuals.

Love the sinner, hate the sin... huh? What? I'm confused. I hear that term so much I am confused about it. My sexuality is about love. It is just similar to heterosexuality. I want to find someone I can love and be with. I can't be friends with someone who disapproves my sexuality, especially when they are active about letting me know their disapproval. I have no problem with someone who holds the "live and let live" line of thought.

To say that my sexuality is wrong is to say I'm wrong about the way I am. There is nothing I can do to change the way I am.

Although, their means is misguided we should consider the possiblity that many heterosexists do have good intentions. We must acknowledge it but still strongly object to their heterosexist views.
Thanks

How is throwing emotional and mental abuse onto a group of people well intentioned? How is hurting families well intentioned? I can't possibly say that anything that these people do is well intentioned. Live and let live!!! That's the only nice way of doing things.

[Daniel]

I try to communicate the silliness of an insinuation by taking it to a humorus extreme so that we can both laugh at it! --usually works


Scotty- I love ya! I think what you are suggesting is called camp! (And I'm not talking about the movie a few years ago with Sondeim where he made a cameo appearance).

I'm glad to see it is alive and well!

Didn't gay people invent this? ;)

[BruceChris]

Fear based Christians believe that their beliefs should control control everybody's sex life, and that that should pretty much be limited to married people doing it in the missionary position, for the purpose of having children. That it would be nice if God would enforce God's laws, so that they don't have to think about it. Since God refuses to do so, they feel that they must do it for him, and that upsets them no end.

Gloria pretty much stopped at that point.

Since the Bible tells them that they must love everybody, they tell us that they are doing it out of love, but mostly, they are still upset. When some of us go so far as to say that they are wrong, and that what they read in the Bible is not the correct word of God, they get just that much more upset. Just how far they go in acting on their feelings of upset depends on the individual. Upset leads to anger, and that can lead to hate, even if the individual absolutely refuses to admit it.

So yeah, many of them do hate us, and don't always admit it. Anyway, that's my take on it.

Peace and Love, even to people who piss me off, and even if I have to calm down now and then to be able to say it with HONESTY, Bruce Chris

[scott snedeker]

[QUOTE=BruceChris;14497]Fear based Christians believe that their beliefs should control control everybody's sex life,

Boy you hit it on the head there!

Fear is the worst state of spirituality. even anger is a step up-----Abraham paraphrased (abraham-hicks.com)

Anyone who tells you that you should fear is saying this from the vibrational alignment farthest from Source Energy (God)

If your response is fear also then you are in the same alignment and is a sign that it is time for you to move up the emotional scale

If your emotional response is anger then you are one step higher. Better but not great

If it's Rage that's slightly better but still not great

If it's frustration that's a start it's an acceptance of what is--less emotional disturbance-- but with no gratification. But in frustration there can occaisionally poke through appreciation that things are better than they could be. practice enough appeciation and up springs Hope! Now the connection to Source Energy (God) can be felt! people seem nicer! food tastes better! love is less hindered! Focus on thoughts that cause you to feel hope and Bingo! Hoping turns to believing that the world today is better than it was and you just can't wait to see how much better your world will be tomorrow. And when you see evidence over and over of what you believe to be happening-- Believing becomes KNOWING! And the inner peace of Knowing the world is going to become a kinder place leads to joy.

And then when you are in a state of joy because of your Knowing, someone tells you that you should fear; you can respond with: "Oh no! The problem is not that I don't feel fear. The problem is that you don't feel joy. Perhaps you are frustated that I feel joy and acceptance of myself and my nature......... But that is a start! Because in frustration you can appreciate that things could be worse than they are which can lead to appreciation.........."

But if you are in joy and they respond with fear or anger, then they are usually too far down the emotional scale for you to bring up their emotional vibrational into alignment with you. And you certainly don't want to descend down to their emotional level. Might be better to say "Come back later when you want to talk again. And hope they can move up from their state disconnection to source energy (God)

When people who are better connected to source energy sense the vibration of joy in you they are attracted. They may not Know why, but they do know how they want to feel

It all starts by directing the focus of your thought to the best feeling thought available to you. You can't go from fear to joy and stay there---it won't last. But you can reliably go from rage to frustration.....and when you have had enough of that ..... to appreciation.......


Source Energy (God) has great love for you. We are complete beings and extensions of him

Love Scotty:cowboy:

-----also paraphrased from Abraham

[Huggins293]

I'm being a bit glib in saying this, but the Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions.

I certainly don't mean to be condemnatory of those who have gay siblings, sons or daughters. But for those who dissaprove of the act, isn't that all about the 'ick factor'? And let's be clear here: my parents don't want to think about what I do in bed with my husband. I get that. I also 'get' that I'm not keen on knowing what they do either.

I agree. I do believe especially for gay men, the physical revulsion toward it fuels the moral outrage.

I don't assume our straight adversaries 'hate' us. But when someone is beating you with their viewpoint and trying to convince you that it is for your good- ie God doesn't like gay sex (that's what it's really all about actually) and God is on their side and not yours etc etc- we are all supposed to think they have good intentions?

Well to be fair. IN their mind, their strong uneasiness toward homosexuality is confirmed by scripture. They believe that God will damn homosexuals if they do not change and be striaght. So in essence they are saving souls from damnation.


The desire to control other people ain't love. And that is what conservatives and Fundies want to do: control everything and everyone so that they feel safe. In the end, their intentions are not about us, but about them.

I feel they want to change a lifestyle that they find inherently sinful and dangerous. They do not want this lifestyle to be promoted. It would be unfair to say they want to control gays since many are not calling for gay sex to be illegal. There case is not sound and is often based on bigotry. That is the problem.

I would like ot mentoin that I know a co-worker who gets along very well with his gay comrade. He cares about him as well as any str8 guy. However, this co-workers theolgicla beliefs oppose homosexuality. He is very admant about it being forbidden by God. Of course this is a misinformed view but anti-gays are capable of seeing gays beyond their sexuality. And I would say many of them see homosexuals no different than they see their str8 fornicators and adulterers.

[kara speltz]

[QUOTE=BruceChris;14497]Fear based Christians believe that their beliefs should control control everybody's sex life,

Boy you hit it on the head there!

Fear is the worst state of spirituality. even anger is a step up-----Abraham paraphrased (abraham-hicks.com)



Interestingly enough if you check out the bible the instruction Jesus gave us the most, wasn't love one another, but "fear not."

Kara

[Daniel]

I feel they want to change a lifestyle that they find inherently sinful and dangerous. They do not want this lifestyle to be promoted. It would be unfair to say they want to control gays since many are not calling for gay sex to be illegal. There case is not sound and is often based on bigotry. That is the problem.

I would like ot mentoin that I know a co-worker who gets along very well with his gay comrade. He cares about him as well as any str8 guy. However, this co-workers theolgicla beliefs oppose homosexuality. He is very admant about it being forbidden by God. Of course this is a misinformed view but anti-gays are capable of seeing gays beyond their sexuality. And I would say many of them see homosexuals no different than they see their str8 fornicators and adulterers.



Huggins-

Dangerous? Really?

There are many many more people - huge numbers actually- with AIDS in Africa. According to that calculus, one might say that it's dangerous to be straight. ;)

And let's be clear here: the sodomy laws that were struck down by the supreme court apply to straight people as well as gay people. :rolleyes:

Your use of the words 'this lifestyle' and the last two sentences are a cause for concern. To be forthright here: who's interests are you representing here? :confused:

[Giancarlo]

I feel they want to change a lifestyle that they find inherently sinful and dangerous. They do not want this lifestyle to be promoted. It would be unfair to say they want to control gays since many are not calling for gay sex to be illegal. There case is not sound and is often based on bigotry. That is the problem.

I would like ot mentoin that I know a co-worker who gets along very well with his gay comrade. He cares about him as well as any str8 guy. However, this co-workers theolgicla beliefs oppose homosexuality. He is very admant about it being forbidden by God. Of course this is a misinformed view but anti-gays are capable of seeing gays beyond their sexuality. And I would say many of them see homosexuals no different than they see their str8 fornicators and adulterers.

There is no way this individual really cares about gay people because our sexuality is part of who we are. It is unfair to say that they do. What about people who say "well, I do care about black people, but feel they shouldn't have the same rights as white people". That's just wrong. You can't go half way on this. You need to love someone for who they are, in their entirety.

I would never say I could love most of someone, but hate or dislike one part of them. They are a whole. Anti-gay people are not capable of seeing gay people beyond their sexuality. They seem to be the ones who focus mostly on our sexuality. They attack us for being sex addicts. They seem to know more about gay sex then we do.

Furthermore, my sexuality isn't a lifestyle. It is part of me. I am not living any differently then anyone else. I live just like a heterosexual person. Sexuality isn't a way of life... it is a WAY OF BEING. Not a lifestyle. Lifestyle is a word conservatives throw around intended to minimize us as human beings.

And you never responded to my last post.

[Huggins293]

Huggins-

Dangerous? Really?

There are many many more people - huge numbers actually- with AIDS in Africa. According to that calculus, one might say that it's dangerous to be straight. ;)
I want to be clear I am only stating their view which I strongly object to. From their perception, they are attempting to save people from a dangerous lifestyle. They resent being demonized by using strong tactics of tough love to save who they think are lost. As we both know this opinion is very distorted and misguided. However, if we continue to demonize anti-gays as people who have hatred for gays, we will only add to their frustration that they are misunderstood. We can understand their compassion and good intentions but we still must reject their heterosexist ideology.

Your use of the words 'this lifestyle' and the last two sentences are a cause for concern. To be forthright here: who's interests are you representing here? :confused:

I apoligize, I should know that using the word "lifestyle" is a term that is questoinable. HOwever, I used lifestyle in the same context I would use lifestyle for heteorsexuals. Both are a way of life and a way of being.

[Huggins293]

I would never say I could love most of someone, but hate or dislike one part of them. They are a whole. Anti-gay people are not capable of seeing gay people beyond their sexuality. They seem to be the ones who focus mostly on our sexuality. They attack us for being sex addicts. They seem to know more about gay sex then we do.

Many anti-gays do have a strong dislike for gays for their behavior. However there are many who have gay friends and can see them beyond their behavior. They disagreee with that behavior. They would see it no differently than disagreeing with a friend who sleeps around or takes drugs. To many anti-gays objecting to homosexuality is objecting to behavior rather than the person as a whole.

You are absolutely correct that anti-gays stereotype and distort the true perception of homosexuals. We need to constantly challenge this. However, form personal experience I have seen anti-gays care for homosexuals as human beings while still strongly rejecting to their sexual behvior and being. Does this change the fact that the have bigoted views toward gays? Nope. Does it make it right that they share these views because they can see gays beyond sexuality? NOpe. Just like some anti-gays can accept gays as people but reject their homosexuality. I accept anti-gays as people but reject their heterosexism. This includes my friends and family which are heavily heterosexist.

I will respond to your last post promptly. Sorry.

[Giancarlo]

However, if we continue to demonize anti-gays as people who have hatred for gays, we will only add to their frustration that they are misunderstood. We can understand their compassion and good intentions but we still must reject their heterosexist ideology.

How so? They are demonizing us for our sexuality. How is that compassion or good intentions? They are only seeking to inflict pain on us. I'm not surprised you have ignored posts I have made. Their intentions are not compassionate or good.

[Huggins293]

Love the sinner, hate the sin... huh? What? I'm confused. I hear that term so much I am confused about it. My sexuality is about love. To say that my sexuality is wrong is to say I'm wrong about the way I am. There is nothing I can do to change the way I am.
Very unfortunately they feel your love is forbidden by God in the same vien extramarital romantic love is forbidden by God. The anti-gay is no different than a person who morally disagrees with their best buddy having extramarital affairs. We both know there is a huge difference but to the anti-gay there is none.



How is throwing emotional and mental abuse onto a group of people well intentioned? How is hurting families well intentioned? I can't possibly say that anything that these people do is well intentioned. Live and let live!!! That's the only nice way of doing things.
Giancarlo, very unfortunately they do not believe they are throwing mental abuse onto a group of people. It is similar ot white missionaries who did not realize how saving the african blacks from their "barbarain" ways was indicative of their racism. In both cases they feel their tough love or bluntly telling the heathens and sinners how reprehensible their lifestyle is to God is helping them to get saved. Of course we knot it is their barbarain intellectualism that fuels it but it does not take away from the fact that they think they are HELPING.

[Giancarlo]

Many anti-gays do have a strong dislike for gays for their behavior. However there are many who have gay friends and can see them beyond their behavior. They disagreee with that behavior. They would see it no differently than disagreeing with a friend who sleeps around or takes drugs. To many anti-gays objecting to homosexuality is objecting to behavior rather than the person as a whole.

How is this? My behavior? What behavior? I don't care if they "disagree" with my sexuality. It is part of who I am. They can't accept me as a person, if they don't accept me as a whole including my sexuality. You can hate a part of someone and expect them to accept your views. Anti-gay people are not going to be accepted in my eyes because they harbor hate and intolerance. Many of them convert this hatred into legislation, including "marriage protection acts".

Beyond my behavior? I doubt these anti-gay bigots have any gay friends at all!

However, form personal experience I have seen anti-gays care for homosexuals as human beings while still strongly rejecting to their sexual behvior and being.

But they don't. They don't care because they throw intolerance towards gays and lesbians. Are you gay? If not, then maybe you should step into my shoes for a day or two.

I accept anti-gays as people but reject their heterosexism. This includes my friends and family which are heavily heterosexist.

I will respond to your last post promptly. Sorry.

MY SEXUALITY IS NOT A BEHAVIOR. It is a way of being. IF they cannot accept my way of being, they do not accept me. I'm taking a hard line on this point.

[Giancarlo]

Very unfortunately they feel your love is forbidden by God in the same vien extramarital romantic love is forbidden by God. The anti-gay is no different than a person who morally disagrees with their best buddy having extramarital affairs. We both know there is a huge difference but to the anti-gay there is none.

That's irrelevant. They cannot force their ideology onto me. I am gay, as it is a way of being. They are anti-gay because it is their ideology. I cannot change my sexuality, while they can change their anti-gay beliefs.

Giancarlo, very unfortunately they do not believe they are throwing mental abuse onto a group of people. It is similar ot white missionaries who did not realize how saving the african blacks from their "barbarain" ways was indicative of their racism. In both cases they feel their tough love or bluntly telling the heathens and sinners how reprehensible their lifestyle is to God is helping them to get saved. Of course we knot it is their barbarain intellectualism that fuels it but it does not take away from the fact that they think they are HELPING.

THEY ARE THROWING MENTAL ABUSE ONTO PEOPLE. They are throwing mental abuse onto me, and others. They are throwing their intolerance onto me. This very day a fundamentalist came up to me to spew his philosophy in my face intending to harm me. I do not accept their beliefs.

[Daniel]

I want to be clear I am only stating their view which I strongly object to. From their perception, they are attempting to save people from a dangerous lifestyle. They resent being demonized by using strong tactics of tough love to save who they think are lost. As we both know this opinion is very distorted and misguided. However, if we continue to demonize anti-gays as people who have hatred for gays, we will only add to their frustration that they are misunderstood. We can understand their compassion and good intentions but we still must reject their heterosexist ideology.


Thanks for your response. Whew! It clarifies much.

Mel White has written at length about 'out-loving' our adversaries, and this is the hard part of nonviolence, at least, it has been for me at times. Sometimes I just want to throw the rocks right back.

I do get that straight conservative/fundamentalist types want to save us from ourselves, but they're barking up the wrong tree. We both know that. And you've said as much. Certianly, every conservative/fundi doesn't have hatred in his heart:most people are victims of their own ignorance and lack of curiosity.

That said, I take issue with your use of the word compassion in reference to those who try to convert us to heterosexuality. Their actions can hardly be called compassionate. A better word is pity. Compassion, as I see it, demands a point of view which entails full awareness of the object of its inquiry and (as I have learned from Buddhism) is concerned with the alleviation of suffering. But the suffering we are talking about here is that which is caused by those who act ignorantly towards gay people. Those who wake up to the fact that they have acted ignorantly towards gay people- no matter how well-meaning their intentions- will have to generate some compassion for themselves first before they can think about what's best for us.

[suzer1013]

I want to be clear I am only stating their view which I strongly object to. From their perception, they are attempting to save people from a dangerous lifestyle. They resent being demonized by using strong tactics of tough love to save who they think are lost. As we both know this opinion is very distorted and misguided. However, if we continue to demonize anti-gays as people who have hatred for gays, we will only add to their frustration that they are misunderstood. We can understand their compassion and good intentions but we still must reject their heterosexist ideology.


I guess I have a slightly different take on this. I think those who are anti-gay have a sincere belief that what they are doing is compassionate and loving. However, I believe that their actions, no matter how "loving" or "concerned" they may try to appear, really are borne of fear and hatred. The trouble is that their fear and hatred has been sanitized and legitimized for so long by religion, that it can appear to be acceptable in our society.

I try to understand that these good people have been duped by years of religious oppression and discrimination of GLBT people, and it is the untruth, not the people, that our struggles are against. Anti-gay bigotry has gone on for so long, that it now is accepted and called "love" by some. Hate is a strong word, but I think it is at the root of anti-gay bigotry, no matter how big or sincere the smile or expression of "love" that comes with it.

Susan

[Huggins293]

How so? They are demonizing us for our sexuality. How is that compassion or good intentions? They are only seeking to inflict pain on us. I'm not surprised you have ignored posts I have made. Their intentions are not compassionate or good.

Giancarlo, you are not understanding me. When someoone thinks you are mentally sick(when in reality you are not) and presents facts as such, they are misguided, but you can not deny that they are compassionate. That does not mean I will not vocally express that their view is distorted and their view causes pain equal to someone who is not compassionate spewing heterosexist thought.

One of the main obstacles in our opponents listening to our message is that they feel they are unfairly viewed as haters of gay people. I can tell you for a fact that many anti-gays are truly compassionate in their misguided message. As a matter of fact I know one guy who is friends with a gay guy but privately told me he sees his sexuality as a sin equivalent to his smoking. He truly feels it is a disorder(wrongly that is).I candidly told him that his view is misguided and the reasons why it is misguided.

If you continue to paint most and all of those who oppose homosexual behaivor as people who hate you, it will prevent them from listening to reasonsing why their viewpoint is misguided. They will be hurt or anger at the perception that they hate gays and focus on that rather on the reasons why their anti-gay sentiment is irratiional.

I understand some of them hold very offensive sentiments inside and these sentiments must be addressed. However, it is unproductive to project the image of these people as haters of gay people rather than haters of gay culture and behavior. As I have said before the later view is unhealthy and misguided.

Thanks
Huggs

P.S. What posts have I ignored? What questions have I ignored? Please tell me because I don't feel that I have. If you questoin how seriously I am opposed to heterosexism, ask emorph about some of my writings on the CARM board ethics page. My understanding of the compassoin against homosexuality does not mean ACCEPTANCE.

[Huggins293]

There is no way this individual really cares about gay people because our sexuality is part of who we are. It is unfair to say that they do. What about people who say "well, I do care about black people, but feel they shouldn't have the same rights as white people". That's just wrong. You can't go half way on this. You need to love someone for who they are, in their entirety.



But unfortunately they see your who you are as simply a choosen behavior and way of thinking. They see it as a behavior and thinking that can be corrected. As Daniel said, the brutal fact is they have physical revulsion toward imagining homosexual acts. It is so strong it blinds their moral discernment. So in similar vien how racism judges blacks physically, anti-gays judge gays physically on the acts that they do or allegedly perform. Both racists and heterosexists judge based on the flesh. This is a corrput view.

I am just informing you on how they think and why they do not feel they are equivalent in any way to racists.

[Giancarlo]

Giancarlo, you are not understanding me. When someoone thinks you are mentally sick(when in reality you are not) and presents facts as such, they are misguided, but you can not deny that they are compassionate. That does not mean I will not vocally express that their view is distorted and their view causes pain equal to someone who is not compassionate spewing heterosexist thought.

Hatred and bigotry is not compassionate. It is morally wrong to subject people to such hatred. This is not related to compassion. Compassion is truly about caring and accepting a person. The anti-gay people do not accept, therefore have no compassion.

One of the main obstacles in our opponents listening to our message is that they feel they are unfairly viewed as haters of gay people. I can tell you for a fact that many anti-gays are truly compassionate in their misguided message. As a matter of fact I know one guy who is friends with a gay guy but privately told me he sees his sexuality as a sin equivalent to his smoking. He truly feels it is a disorder(wrongly that is).I candidly told him that his view is misguided and the reasons why it is misguided.

But they are haters... they are not compassionate people. I do not believe an anti-gay person can be a friend of a gay person because they truly are not accepting.

If you continue to paint most and all of those who oppose homosexual behaivor as people who hate you, it will prevent them from listening to reasonsing why their viewpoint is misguided. They will be hurt or anger at the perception that they hate gays and focus on that rather on the reasons why their anti-gay sentiment is irratiional.

They can change their reasoning through logic and compassion. They don't have compassion at it is. They are misguided, hateful and have great disdain. Compassion only comes with acceptance. That's a fact. I focus on changing minds yes, but I also focus on defending my sexuality.


However, it is unproductive to project the image of these people as haters of gay people rather than haters of gay culture and behavior. As I have said before the later view is unhealthy and misguided.

But they are.

Compassion is not about hate. It is about acceptance! You can never take out acceptance from compassion.

[Pablo Rafael]

Giancarlo,

Do you really think that the world is divided into two camps; those that agree with you are good, and those who disagree with you are filled with hate? I have got to agreee with Kara; you seem to see the world in black and white.

I know and have known many nice people who believe that homosexuality is wrong. I don't have to agree with them on the issue. They have nothing against me or anyone else. I have learned over the years that the world does not revolve around me. I do not expect everyone to agree with me. I was very vocal in the past presidential election that I wanted President Bush to be defeated. There were many who strongly disagreed with me. They were not hateful, and I respected their opinions though I didn't agree. I am the only Catholic in my family. Everyone else disagrees with my choice of churches. They don't hate me for it. They disagree, but respect my choice.

Yes, there are people who are filled with hate and direct their anger at gay individuals. However, I see far more who are personally convinced that we are wrong, but are kind and compassionate. My whole being is not tied up in my sexuality. Someone can disagree with me and still respect me. I don't cast them aside if they dissaprove. My self-esteem is strong enough to handle a difference of opinion or belief.

Do all of your friends think the way you do 100%. I would venture to guess that they do not. Are they hateful because they disagree? Can someone disagree with you, or does that automatically put them in the "enemy" camp? We all need to understand that people can and do think differently than we do.

Pablo

[Giancarlo]

But unfortunately they see your who you are as simply a choosen behavior and way of thinking. They see it as a behavior and thinking that can be corrected. As Daniel said, the brutal fact is they have physical revulsion toward imagining homosexual acts. It is so strong it blinds their moral discernment. So in similar vien how racism judges blacks physically, anti-gays judge gays physically on the acts that they do or allegedly perform. Both racists and heterosexists judge based on the flesh. This is a corrput view.

I am just informing you on how they think and why they do not feel they are equivalent in any way to racists.

Well then they hold an ignorant hateful view, and I feel they lack an understanding of sociology, psychology and biology. They need to be educated. The United States educational system is floundering and we still have debates about having creationism in schools.

Compassion, Respect and Acceptance are all integral.

[Giancarlo]

Giancarlo,

Do you really think that the world is divided into two camps; those that agree with you are good, and those who disagree with you are filled with hate? I have got to agreee with Kara; you seem to see the world in black and white.

I've seen enough of this world and seen a lot of different cultures. I have been to over 30 countries in the 21 years I've been on this planet. I felt that many people in these cultures can be extremely smart and well educated but are denied by their circumstances. I feel the same way in a sense about anti-gay people. They could remove the shackles of hate if they were to educate themselves. Malcolm X broke with the Nation of Islam after traveling the world because he knew the ideas espoused by Elijah Mohamed were ridiculous and hateful. All I'm saying is people need to open their eyes and stop acting hateful and ignorant. Willing ignorance is more dangerous then unintended ignorance by circumstance.

I know and have known many nice people who believe that homosexuality is wrong. I don't have to agree with them on the issue. They have nothing against me or anyone else. I have learned over the years that the world does not revolve around me. I do not expect everyone to agree with me. I was very vocal in the past presidential election that I wanted President Bush to be defeated. There were many who strongly disagreed with me. They were not hateful, and I respected their opinions though I didn't agree. I am the only Catholic in my family. Everyone else disagrees with my choice of churches. They don't hate me for it. They disagree, but respect my choice.

I cannot be friends with someone who tells me I'm going to hell. I know this is tough language that I use, but in my culture people are taught not to sugarcoat what they think. I respect all the tenets of Soulforce, and totally understand it is based on non-violent principle. I'm a vivid speaker who speaks his mind without regret. Never have I said that the world revolves around me, but it should revolve around integrity, decency, respect, acceptance and compassion. These are ideals we must teach those who are not afforded the chance. We should encourage this to those who are willingly ignorant.

My sexual orientation is not a choice. It isn't a lifestyle. It is a way of being. That's what we should teach those who are against homosexuality. I'm not saying we should lock them up in prisons or mental hospitals.

I'm old enough to know that the world does not revolve around me. This is a realist kind of world, or in other terms... dog eat dog.


However, I see far more who are personally convinced that we are wrong, but are kind and compassionate. My whole being is not tied up in my sexuality. Someone can disagree with me and still respect me. I don't cast them aside if they dissaprove. My self-esteem is strong enough to handle a difference of opinion or belief.

I am struck by such statements. How are these people either kind or compassionate? I don't care how much they sugarcoat their words... insisting that people should go to hell is not compassionate or kind. Insisting that my sexual orientation is a mental disorder is not compassionate and kind. As I said, acceptance and compassion are inseparable.

Do all of your friends think the way you do 100%. I would venture to guess that they do not. Are they hateful because they disagree? Can someone disagree with you, or does that automatically put them in the "enemy" camp? We all need to understand that people can and do think differently than we do.

Pablo

My friend don't have to like me 100%. They have to accept me overall, and like it or not, my sexual orientation is a part of who I am. An integral part of who I am. Should I hate heterosexuality? I don't associate with bigots. I associate with people who accept me for who I am. If they have a difference of opinions in regards to politics or some other issue (other then who I am)... fine.

One thing, I speak for myself... and no one else should. I'm not a politician.

[Huggins293]

Well then they hold an ignorant hateful view, and I feel they lack an understanding of sociology, psychology and biology. They need to be educated.

I agree they hold an ignorant view and they need to be educated. I would like to also stress that many gay bigots are hateful and the hateful tone should be addressed as well. I simply can not say every gay bigot has hateful intentions.

[Huggins293]

But they are haters... they are not compassionate people. I do not believe an anti-gay person can be a friend of a gay person because they truly are not accepting.

If I hold the view that homosexuality is an addiction and I hope they cure themselves, I am not a hater. Make no mistake that view is based on ignorance and needs to be addressed. However, someone could be misguided and view homosexuality as an addiction and deviancy and wish(falsely) that they get treated. Thinking homosexuality is unhealthy to an individual and attempting to rid homosexuality in order to restore someone's health, shows you care about the person.



The tragedy is that the misguided view is still based on bigotry.

I know some of heterosexist remarks are awful and hurtful. YOu are not to accept them but I only ask that you acknowledge the possiblity that those who make these remarks can have the purest of intetions. It does not justify their ignorant remarks though.

[Giancarlo]

If I hold the view that homosexuality is an addiction and I hope they cure themselves, I am not a hater. Make no mistake that view is based on ignorance and needs to be addressed. However, someone could be misguided and view homosexuality as an addiction and deviancy and wish(falsely) that they get treated. Thinking homosexuality is unhealthy to an individual and attempting to rid homosexuality in order to restore someone's health, shows you care about the person.

I'm really starting to question your motives here. For one thing, if you think of it as an addiction you are indeed a hater. The people who think that need to be addressed and educated on what is true.

Thinking homosexuality is unhealthy is hateful in itself. It is not about caring. It is about a personal agenda and a vindictive attitude.


I know some of heterosexist remarks are awful and hurtful. YOu are not to accept them but I only ask that you acknowledge the possiblity that those who make these remarks can have the purest of intetions. It does not justify their ignorant remarks though.

The purest of intentions? Are you serious?

[Huggins293]

I'm really starting to question your motives here. For one thing, if you think of it as an addiction you are indeed a hater. The people who think that need to be addressed and educated on what is true.

Thinking homosexuality is unhealthy is hateful in itself. It is not about caring. It is about a personal agenda and a vindictive attitude.

I personally REJECT the view that homosexuality is an addiction. I personally realize that this is misguided view inspired by the physical revultsion toward gay sexual acts. I am merely stating the objectors case. Not only do I REJECT this view, I adamantly and passionately reject it, you only need to read my posts on the CARM org. website. Please tell me where you got the idea that I supported it.

But they are haters... they are not compassionate people. I do not believe an anti-gay person can be a friend of a gay person because they truly are not accepting
Simply because someone does not accept a part of you does not mean they hate you or do not mean you well. There are people who think if I walked, dressed and talked differently I would be more successful. There opinions are purely subjective.

The opinion that homosexuality is a disease is FALSEHOOD, which I have disproven multiple times in particlular on the Jamaica Star Board. I am merely saying that there are some opponents of gay behavior who sincerely believe ity is a disease and sincerely believe they are helping gays by attempting to change them into straight people. Their view is distorted and based on misinformation but it is erronous to automatically assume that they hate homosexuals, That is also a distorted view. Many anti-gays do not like and even hate gay people but there are anti-gays who truly believe the gay lifestyle is inherently unhealthy. Yes, their reasons are based on prejudice and ignornace but there motives are sincere. We should debate with our opponents especially well meaning ones with respect. That's what it boils down to.

If we as activists ignore heterosexists who mean well for homosexuals and paint all anti-gays as haters, this distorted perception will prevent them from listening to our case. So we need to paint them fairly even though many of their views are irrational and biased. We must be vividly clear that our objection is to their distorted views of gay culture and sexuality. If they fully understand this the more likely they will listen to our case.

These are my motives for writing this.

[Huggins293]

I'm really starting to question your motives here. For one thing, if you think of it as an addiction you are indeed a hater. The people who think that need to be addressed and educated on what is true.

Thinking homosexuality is unhealthy is hateful in itself. It is not about caring. It is about a personal agenda and a vindictive attitude.

I personally REJECT the view that homosexuality is an addiction. I personally realize that this is misguided view inspired by the physical revultsion toward gay sexual acts. I am merely stating the objectors case. Not only do I REJECT this view, I adamantly and passionately reject it, you only need to read my posts on the CARM org. website. Please tell me where you got the idea that I supported even the slightest form of heterosexism.

But they are haters... they are not compassionate people. I do not believe an anti-gay person can be a friend of a gay person because they truly are not accepting
Simply because someone does not accept a part of you does not mean they hate you or do not mean you well. There are people who think if I walked, dressed and talked differently I would be more successful. There opinions are misguided.

The opinion that homosexuality is a disease is FALSEHOOD, which I have disproven multiple times in particlular on the Jamaica Star Board. I am merely saying that there are some opponents of gay behavior who sincerely believe ity is a disease and sincerely believe they are helping gays by attempting to change them into straight people. Their view is distorted and based on misinformation but it is erronous to automatically assume that they hate homosexuals, That is also a distorted view. Many anti-gays do not like and even hate gay people but there are anti-gays who truly believe the gay lifestyle is inherently unhealthy. Yes, their reasons are based on prejudice and ignornace but there motives are sincere. We should debate with our opponents especially well meaning ones with respect. That's what it boils down to.

If we as activists ignore heterosexists who mean well for homosexuals and paint all anti-gays as haters, this distorted perception will prevent them from listening to our case. So we need to paint them fairly even though many of their views are irrational and biased. We must be vividly clear that our objection is to their distorted views of gay culture and sexuality. If they fully understand this the more likely they will listen to our case.

These are my motives for writing this.

[Giancarlo]

I personally REJECT the view that homosexuality is an addiction. I personally realize that this is misguided view inspired by the physical revultsion toward gay sexual acts. I am merely stating the objectors case. Not only do I REJECT this view, I adamantly and passionately reject it, you only need to read my posts on the CARM org. website. Please tell me where you got the idea that I supported it.

These people are causing a lot of pain and they need to be opposed as foes. That's my own opinion. I have criticized them and that is my right. The objectors don't have a case at all.

Simply because someone does not accept a part of you does not mean they hate you or do not mean you well. There are people who think if I walked, dressed and talked differently I would be more successful. There opinions are purely subjective.

Perhaps, but when the reject a part of me that is vital to my being then they in fact do hate me, and mean discontent.


If we as activists ignore heterosexists who mean well for homosexuals and paint all anti-gays as haters, this distorted perception will prevent them from listening to our case. So we need to paint them fairly even though many of their views are irrational and biased. We must be vividly clear that our objection is to their distorted views of gay culture and sexuality. If they fully understand this the more likely they will listen to our case.

These are my motives for writing this.

No one is ignoring these people. I fully recognize they are there, but they need to be criticized because they are spreading falsehoods. We cannot go easy or soft on this, because it is very damaging.

[Huggins293]

These people are causing a lot of pain and they need to be opposed as foes. That's my own opinion. I have criticized them and that is my right. The objectors don't have a case at all.
I agree and I have too as well. Please join me on the Jamaica Star Board Forum and the CARM board. We are in shortage of activists on this board.



Perhaps, but when the reject a part of me that is vital to my being then they in fact do hate me, and mean discontent.
I truly to understand why you percieve it that way. However, to an anti-gay who equates homosexulaity to fornication it makes no sense. Do those who oppose pre-marital sex, hate those who do it? In both cases these views are collectively dangerous and should be addressed, however rejecting behavior and a mentality as being moral does not automatically equate to hatred. The only thing I am suggesting is to use appropriate language toward the heterosexists you are addressing.



No one is ignoring these people. I fully recognize they are there, but they need to be criticized because they are spreading falsehoods. We cannot go easy or soft on this, because it is very damaging.

My rejection of heterosexism is as firm with kind objectors as it is with hateful objectors. Heterosexism in all forms must be rejected.

[Giancarlo]

I truly to understand why you percieve it that way. However, to an anti-gay who equates homosexulaity to fornication it makes no sense. Do those who oppose pre-marital sex, hate those who do it? In both cases these views are collectively dangerous and should be addressed, however rejecting behavior and a mentality as being moral does not automatically equate to hatred. The only thing I am suggesting is to use appropriate language toward the heterosexists you are addressing.

I'm almost tired of discussing this. Those who oppose homosexuality are anti-gay. They have a strong passion of hate against gay people. This isn't about pre-martial sex. It doesn't matter if the twisted brain of these christian conservatives believe it is dangerous. What they believe and what is true are two different things.

[Huggins293]

I'm almost tired of discussing this. Those who oppose homosexuality are anti-gay. They have a strong passion of hate against gay people. This isn't about pre-martial sex. It doesn't matter if the twisted brain of these christian conservatives believe it is dangerous. What they believe and what is true are two different things.

GIANCARLO, you would be perfect debating heterosexist on the Jamaica star board as well as CARM. You can tell them how you feel about their alleged good intentions. Anyways here is a firm response I have had with a relgious heterosexist:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Hymn
Is the Christian homosexual. Asserting that you are in line with God's purpose and removing the sin from homosexual behavior. Not only is the claim that God is tolerant of homosexual behavior, as well as making the claim that the scripture supports that stand is completely irresponsible. Especially if you teach others that same notion. What you have done is created a god who is in line with your beliefs. It is the ultimate love of self.

With all due respect, BattleHymn I feel that anti-gays who continually cling to the bible to re-affirm hatred of homosexuality are the ones who are guilty of making god in line with their beliefs. I have not and will never be presented evidence that the scripture is the authentic portriat of God. Man wrote the bible and put his own beliefs in the bible and claimed they came from God. No matter how much it states it is from God, will not make it true.

So I feel it is morally irresponsible to accept interpretations of a scripture that justify assualting someone's sexual preference. Like I said in the previous post, I do not believe the bible is to blame for this. It is the people who refuse to question their biased views on homosexuality and continue to use the bible as instrument to justify their comfortablity of their bias. I do acknowledge that many who do this mean well for gays but it does not erase the unjustified emotional violence that is being inflicted by strong-headed heterosexist.


Quote:
The God of the bible has His law and His way, and we are to conform to It, no matter how personally difficult.

I hate to say it but you potray a God who simply gives orders with out reason. You potray him as a dictator.


Quote:
God has no obligation to conform to you, and to assert such an idea is to create your own god; creating your own god is the ultimate form of idolitry.
It is not about creating your own god. The opposition to heterosexism is based on reality. If the bible states this reality is not true, then the bible does not conform to reality. Many of us refuse to put our faith in a book written by men. That is why it is irrelevant if the bible supports or rejects heterosexism because it is not from the mouth of god but from men whose alleged truths can and has been questioned.

With all due respect the ultimate form of idolatery is how many christians on this board relate to scripture. They have made it the only and absolute mediator of knowing God, when they should know it was written by flawed men. The put 100% trust that every single statement that allegedly came or was inspired by God is true, without discernment. That is making the bible a dangerous idol.

CommentsYou notice that I was respectful but yet firm. My empathy of their well intentions does not erase their delusion and misguidance.

[Giancarlo]

No thanks. I don't have the time nor the patience right now to debate with people who believe such things.

[Emproph]

Giancarlo,

They're not all hateful. It's difficult to accept but it's true. Some are definitely hateful, but some are not, the reasons cover the gamut, and that's really the point. Those who hate, hate for different reasons and that don't hate, don't hate for different reasons, I believe that some of them actually even do love us in their prejudice.

And you're right, they don't have a case. But their case is with God, as it relates to their own relationship with truth, and their love or hatred of it - as it is with all of us.

Some of them are just confused and need our help, others actually have experience with at least what they consider to be sexual fluidity. The point is that distinctions need to be made before judgement is passed (on an entire segment of the population :injured:). I have compassion for those who at least try to understand though, and like I said, some do.

I think that's all Huggins is trying to say. We don't have to tolerate outright hatred or their acceptance of the lies their told, but judgement in that sense must be passed on an individual basis. Just as we would want that done for us.

There's more than enough justified satisfaction of judgement to go around. I'm only suggesting that it be placed accordingly.

[Huggins293]

Giancarlo,

They're not all hateful. It's difficult to accept but it's true. Some are definitely hateful, but some are not, the reasons cover the gamut, and that's really the point. Those who hate, hate for different reasons and that don't hate, don't hate for different reasons, I believe that some of them actually even do love us in their prejudice.

And you're right, they don't have a case. But their case is with God, as it relates to their own relationship with truth, and their love or hatred of it - as it is with all of us.

Some of them are just confused and need our help, others actually have experience with at least what they consider to be sexual fluidity. The point is that distinctions need to be made before judgement is passed (on an entire segment of the population :injured:). I have compassion for those who at least try to understand though, and like I said, some do.

I think that's all Huggins is trying to say. We don't have to tolerate outright hatred or their acceptance of the lies their told, but judgement in that sense must be passed on an individual basis. Just as we would want that done for us.

There's more than enough justified satisfaction of judgement to go around. I'm only suggesting that it be placed accordingly.


Thanks for responding, Emorph. Off the subject, can you explain to me why Lesley on the CARM board is so heterosexists. She repeatedley claims she was a lesbian. How can a former lesbian make such brutal statements about lesbians? It is as she were a str8 women condemning homosexuality. Do you have any theories?

[Huggins293]

No thanks. I don't have the time nor the patience right now to debate with people who believe such things.

How do you achieve equality without addressing the culture who refuses to accept you as equal? These people make up a large portion of our populaiton and influence legislation such as attempting to make marriage for heterosexuals only.

[Giancarlo]

How do you achieve equality without addressing the culture who refuses to accept you as equal? These people make up a large portion of our populaiton and influence legislation such as attempting to make marriage for heterosexuals only.

For one I have papers to write and I have school to complete, I do not have the time or the energy to deal with some bigots online.

[Giancarlo]

Giancarlo,

They're not all hateful. It's difficult to accept but it's true. Some are definitely hateful, but some are not, the reasons cover the gamut, and that's really the point. Those who hate, hate for different reasons and that don't hate, don't hate for different reasons, I believe that some of them actually even do love us in their prejudice.

Utter nonsense. All of those who are anti-gay are very hateful. I will make that statement because I have confidence it is the truth. They can sugar-coat it whatever they want, they still have hate in their hearts.

I will never accept such explanations or bigotry.

[Pablo Rafael]

. ALL of those who are anti-gay are very hateful. I will make that statement because I have confidence it is the TRUTH.

Giancarlo,

What is bigotry? Is is the putting down an entire group of people and demonizing them because many in that group do not go along with MY views? Is it believing that I have a special insight into "truth"?

Would the above quote be considered bigotry if the word "anti-gay" was replaced by "homosexuals"? I think most of us would consider it so.

Pablo

[Giancarlo]

Giancarlo,

What is bigotry? Is is the putting down an entire group of people and demonizing them because many in that group do not go along with MY views? Is it believing that I have a special insight into "truth"?

Would the above quote be considered bigotry if the word "anti-gay" was replaced by "homosexuals"? I think most of us would consider it so.

Pablo

These people are demonizing me and other homosexuals. How do you expect me to react? With open arms to them? No you can't replace the world "anti-gay" with "homosexuals", because that's just wrong. You can't do that because we aren't the ones trying to outlaw homosexuality. They are. They also want to make this country into a christian state.

I really am starting to question your agenda.

[Emproph]

Thanks for responding, Emorph. Off the subject, can you explain to me why Lesley on the CARM board is so heterosexists. She repeatedley claims she was a lesbian. How can a former lesbian make such brutal statements about lesbians? It is as she were a str8 women condemning homosexuality. Do you have any theories?
Well obviously she eats bombs. There's no other possible explanation.

[Huggins293]

Well obviously she eats bombs. There's no other possible explanation.

Forgive me but are bombs some type of drugs? Is this the typical behavior of ex-gays who accept heterosexist doctrine. I am wondering if her hostile anti-lesbian behavior stems from true homophobia( the fear of lesbianism due to the fear of being one again)

[Liberal Crozier]

......has been, of course, scriptural mandates in both manifestations. When we do either, we create.....the reality of love which exists between two loving partners.

.....Unfortunately, some evangelicals of the theocratic neo-conservative sort, only admit to the latter and not the former. In their quest for power and ecclesiastical dominance, these leaders of the movement have made a bargain with secular power in order to create a system of canon laws that are prevalent in theocratic Islamic states with Shari'a codes.

....It is only a logical sequitur to have the Holiness Code of Leviticus reinstituted where stonings and other capital offences are legislated. Many of them would want those laws directed towards gays and lesbians, but with 50 and 60 per cent divorces and rampant heterosexual adultery, the population would be thinned quite considerably and summarily.

.....Every NDP and Bloc Quebecois voted against the Tory attempt to resurrect same sex marriage debate. Only a handful of Liberals In Name Only voted against it, and in a surprise, a dozen Tories voted in a libertarian stance...including cabinet ministers. Despite lies about judicial decisions and his promise to neocons and theocons, the politics of division does not work in Canada.

.....Five nations now have full marriage rights.....Canada, Netherlands and Belgium and Spain and the Union of South Africa. It looks that MA will stand in the US and NJ is a struggle where they might join VT and CT with second class rights.

[erubre]

If a person's sexuality is part of who the person is , as I believe it is, then I do not think one can love the person and hate the sexual orientation of that person. Maybe some think they can but I think they are mistaken. Some say homosexuality is learned and can be changed, while others say it is programed from before birth. Possibly what is true in this regard differs with and within each individual. The point is whatever the case where a person has a homosexual orientation and doen't wish to change it the homosexuality is an essential part of the person. It appears to me that one cannot reject the homosexuality but except the person. They go together.
When someone says they love a person but reject their sexual orientation and/or the practice thereof, whether they realize it or not they really do not love the person.

[scott snedeker]

If a person's sexuality is part of who the person is , as I believe it is, then I do not think one can love the person and hate the sexual orientation of that person. When someone says they love a person but reject their sexual orientation and/or the practice thereof, whether they realize it or not they really do not love the person.

Hear! Hear!

Christ loved and accepted universally. He did not love and "conditionally tolerate" Love without acceptance is poison. Christ did not poison.

Scotty:cowboy:

[Daniel]

When someone says they love a person but reject their sexual orientation and/or the practice thereof, whether they realize it or not they really do not love the person.

Nicely put!

[USAIRFA]

Giancarlo, you are not understanding me. When someoone thinks you are mentally sick(when in reality you are not) and presents facts as such, they are misguided, but you can not deny that they are compassionate. That does not mean I will not vocally express that their view is distorted and their view causes pain equal to someone who is not compassionate spewing heterosexist thought.

One of the main obstacles in our opponents listening to our message is that they feel they are unfairly viewed as haters of gay people. I can tell you for a fact that many anti-gays are truly compassionate in their misguided message. As a matter of fact I know one guy who is friends with a gay guy but privately told me he sees his sexuality as a sin equivalent to his smoking. He truly feels it is a disorder(wrongly that is).I candidly told him that his view is misguided and the reasons why it is misguided.

If you continue to paint most and all of those who oppose homosexual behaivor as people who hate you, it will prevent them from listening to reasonsing why their viewpoint is misguided. They will be hurt or anger at the perception that they hate gays and focus on that rather on the reasons why their anti-gay sentiment is irratiional.

I understand some of them hold very offensive sentiments inside and these sentiments must be addressed. However, it is unproductive to project the image of these people as haters of gay people rather than haters of gay culture and behavior. As I have said before the later view is unhealthy and misguided.

Thanks
Huggs

P.S. What posts have I ignored? What questions have I ignored? Please tell me because I don't feel that I have. If you questoin how seriously I am opposed to heterosexism, ask emorph about some of my writings on the CARM board ethics page. My understanding of the compassoin against homosexuality does not mean ACCEPTANCE.


I think most of us can show our true christian faith and spirit by showing our compassion for the ones who dislike our homosexuality. If they think I am sick they can't argue with my love and compassion for others which include them. Its more about creating a loving realitionship with these people that feel different. I think alot of gay people want acceptance with there personal "lifestyle" from all groups. However some homosexuals can not accept others that feel different toward our lifestyle. So to me its a two way street. No one can force people to accept homosexuality but its our job to witness with love to all people. All that is left is for God to work and make there hearts and minds feel totally different.

-USAIRFA

[brunodaddy2]

Just remember boys and girls, on a cloudy, rainy day, when the sun finally breaks through and you see a Rainbow.... it means that God is having Gay sex.

[scott snedeker]

So It was Pan after all!!:lol: :lol: :lol: