Coming Out to My Church

[Isaac]

Hi,
I just recently discovered this place and I must say that I'm so happy to have found this community!

I regularly attend services at a large Chrisitan club on my campus (about 400 people every week). The campus itself is VERY liberal, but this particular community is rather conservative. Over the course of the past year or so, I've been coming out to my friends. I even recently came out during a weekly Bible study! I decided that I would no longer sit in silence and let fear keep me from speaking out against injustice and intolerance. Lately, my mind has been focused on coming out in front of the whole congregation. I really like the idea of being visible and letting others know that there are gay Christians and that some people don't think it's a sin. I also assume that I'm not the only one there (seeing as how there are 400 people there) and I'd like to let others know that I think it's OK. The thing is, I hate being the center of attention. Coming out in front of 8 or so of my good friends was hard enough. I know that when I'm standing in front of 400 people, I'll be TERRIFIED! Is there anyone else out there who has had a similar experience? And what do you think I should say? Obviously I'll tell them I'm gay and that I think God is OK with that, but I know that when I'm standing in front of everyone my mind will be racing and I'll forget to say some important things.

I'd also like to request some prayer regarding this. I'm very afraid that I won't be able to go through with this, so pray that God will give me a clear opportunity and that I'd take it. Also, please pray that I would be able to deal with the backlash I'm sure I'll get from some of the community. I know they've asked gay people to leave in the past, and I know there are some real homophobes there. Also, please pray for my friends. I don't want to throw them into any situation where they'll take flak from the community for supporting me, but I'm afraid this may be the case. I definitely plan on talking to them before hand so they'll know what's up.

I'm still at least a few weeks away from doing this as I'm currently on winter break, but I'll keep you all posted in the future if anyone's interested. Thank you!

-Isaac

P.S. I'm from Bellingham, Washington. Just curious if there's anyone else here from BHam or if anyone here attends WWU.

[keltic63]

Hi, welcome to soulforce.

I have some questions for you about your plan.
what do you wish to accomplish by coming out in the main worship service?

how would coming out in front of this group improve your life, or theirs?


would coming out in such a public way help or hinder other lgbt people in the group?


do you think that your friends and the members of your bible study have not told others about you?

Is my personal bias showing yet? :o I'm all for being honest, I just don't know if making the kind of public announcement you're planning is the best thing to do. I think if I had done something like that at my church, there would have been a collective "duh!!!" I certainly had enough of those when I told friends.
Also, because I'm involved in ministry, I really don't like things to distract from worship. Unless your coming out would be part of a personal testimony time, I'm not sure how it would fit into the service. if the purpose of that gathering is to worship God, would your announcement help that process?

OK, I hope I was gentle enough with that. There are other voices here, and I know that they will have some excellent advice about this one. Please feel free to disregard anything and everything in this post.

[andrewlittle]

Hi Isaac,

Praise God for your courage. Don't let anything that anyone says dampen your resolve if it is a response to, what you feel is, conviction from God.

I second Keltic63's sentiments, for several reasons.

I agree with him completely about worship - it is the time to corporately bring all attention to God, and what God would have done in the world. Your testimony could, in fact, fit well in that space and time, but it is worth reflecting on the questions Keltic suggested.

The process of reflecting on those questions would also prepare you well for the task you have set before yourself - or that God has set before you. These comments aren't about "playing it safe", but rather suggesting you do some deep reflection on what is motivating you to step out further than you have.

I would ask you another few questions.

What impact, so far, has been evident from coming out to friends in the club and to you Bible study?

Assuming you have not been ostracized because of your process so far, what do you think the benefit of mass exposure is, as opposed to slow and steady exposure through concentric circles of influence? (this relates to Keltic's 4th question)

Is there a value to living out a truth by example, as opposed to declaring a truth in public?

Reflect well, my courageous friend, and know that, whatever path you choose, you will be prayed for and supported on this site.

Again, please know that these questions are not meant to discourage you. It is, of course, entirely possible you have already wrestled questions like these, and that this is what you are meant to do.

[Pablo Rafael]

Isaac,

Just a quick personal opinion. I agree with both Steve(Keltic) and Andrew. I think it is better to just let the topic flow into normal conversation. Straight people often are offended if they feel homosexuality is "forced" upon them. They are not generally offended if the topic comes up in a natural way. Like Steve said, often people respond with the, "Yeah, I already had that one figured out." type of response. That also removes from you the stress of making a public announcement.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Daniel]

Issac- in the theatre they call what you are attempting to do "Stealing Focus'. Now, the phrase isn't meant in a derogatory way. Stealing focus is simply an act of grabbing or commanding attention when one is in front of an audience. It can be done humorously, good naturedly, as well as maliciously- it's all in the intent behind the person doing the 'stealing'. In that sense, one has to know- very clearly- what one is going to do and why one is doing it. One's motivation must be clear and precise. Why? Because those who 'get away' with stealing focus must do it convincingly and with a certain amount of authority, otherwise, the message gets lost.

In short: if you are going to do such a thing as come out to a group of 400 people, I would write down what you are going to say and then practice saying it. If you can convince yourself you will convince others. And that's an admirable thing.

Whether you do it or not, the desire to engage on this level many indicate a career in public speaking is trying to come out. ;)

[Isaac]

Thanks for the responses. I forgot to (but intended to) ask if this was a good idea or not, so thanks for the input in that area.

keltic63
what do you wish to accomplish by coming out in the main worship service?
I feel like this particular community is sort of the "safe place" in the midst of a liberal campus for certain students who have issues with homosexuality. I also feel like many people who frown upon homosexuality don't know anybody who is gay. I really want to let people know that there are in fact gay(s) who attend the service. It's not my intent to force it down anyones throat. During some services, they leave open spots for people to share whatever's on their heart. I was thinking of doing this during one of these times so that it wouldn't appear as if I was trying to derail the service or anything.
how would coming out in front of this group improve your life, or theirs?
My aim is not to improve my life or theirs either actually. I've just become rather frustrated with the attitudes many of the students there have. Also, I feel like I really have to do something. Many students that attend at this service become campus pastors, missionaries, etc... I feel that if I let them continue to have these attitudes, they may just spread them to others.
would coming out in such a public way help or hinder other lgbt people in the group?
There is one lesbian that I know of who thinks that homosexuality is a sin. She actually came out during one of the smaller services they had during the summer. Other than that, there are no openly lgbt people in the group.
do you think that your friends and the members of your bible study have not told others about you?
Nope. One friend I've told has told a few others. Other than that, nobody's told anybody else.
I think if I had done something like that at my church, there would have been a collective "duh!!!" I certainly had enough of those when I told friends.
It's been a complete surprise to everyone I've told. Some of my friends actually told me later that they thought I was joking for a minute after I told them. In fact, one girl I told who I guessed had a bit of a crush on me, tells me that there are a few other girls who "like" me. :cool: :lol:

andrewlittle
What impact, so far, has been evident from coming out to friends in the club and to you Bible study?
Well, it's brought people's opinions on the subject forward, and it's been a good segue into discussion about the morality of the issue.
Assuming you have not been ostracized because of your process so far, what do you think the benefit of mass exposure is, as opposed to slow and steady exposure through concentric circles of influence? (this relates to Keltic's 4th question)
I'm really not all that worried about being ostracized, in fact I'm almost counting on it a little bit. I think most of us here know that a lot of people mask their hate and fear with religion. One guy actually tried to privately start a group to try and get the local LGBTA club kicked off campus and he tried to get sponsorship from CCF (the club I attend). He was berated for it a little bit (I found this out through a friend of his, all of this was done in private). But I really want to bring people's feelings on the issue to the surface.
Is there a value to living out a truth by example, as opposed to declaring a truth in public?
Absolutely! I certainly hope people have payed attention to how I've lived, but unfortunately not a lot of people know the truth about my life. If people see me as a loving human being, but don't know that I'm gay then I don't think I'm doing anything to help people's perception of homosexuality. If people see me as a loving human being and they know that I'm gay, then maybe people's perceptions and prejudices will change. This is what I meant when I said that I like the idea of being visible.

Pablo Rafael
Straight people often are offended if they feel homosexuality is "forced" upon them. They are not generally offended if the topic comes up in a natural way.
The problem is, the topic is not coming up in public. The pastor did a session on it one time. Unfortunately, it was not during the main service, not many people were there, and most of the people there were from the LGBTA. If the topic did come up during one of the services, obviously I would take that opportunity to say something, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Daniel
in the theatre they call what you are attempting to do "Stealing Focus'.
Yeah, I would definately try and wait for a moment when I felt it was appropriate (such as one of the sharing times I mentioned above) so as to avoid this.
Whether you do it or not, the desire to engage on this level many indicate a career in public speaking is trying to come out.
:lol: I pray that that isn't true!


Sorry for the long post, but I really wanted to address all of your questions/comments. Now that you know a little bit more about my situation, do you still think it's a good/bad idea? If you think it's a bad idea, what would you reccomend that I do to try and change things? I really fell like I've been put in this place to make a difference.

[andrewlittle]

Now I not only admire your courage, but your integrity.

I am not qualified, nor is anyone else, to determine if what you plan is good or not. You have already done a great deal of reflection on this, as I actually assumed you must have.

What would be good is building the support system that davidcom talked about. I am not assuming, however, that this is not in place already. The support doesn't have to be from inside the club, but that wouldn't hurt, either.

I will defer to davidcom's last question and ask you to tell us how we can be supportive in this process for you? Tell us what you need or would like from us, besides the prayer you are already receiving, and we will collectively try to muster the resouces to help.

If it's just a place to talk, vent and run ideas up the pole, you have that already and I, for one, am very happy to listen and interact.

God bless you, my friend, and may God continue to envelop you in love.

[keltic63]

I'm still going to stand by my main objection to doing this in such a public way, which is the amount of distraction it will cause at a service in which the main purpose is the worship of God. Will the congregation remember the songs that were sung? will they remember the scriptures that were read? or will the only thing they take from the service be your public announcement of your orientation? In so many ways, we wish our orientation to be just 1 facet of who we are, and yet sometimes we demand people to acknowledge that 1 facet in very grand ways.
Do I think you need to hide in the closet? no way. I think you need to live your life openly and honestly. If you go out on a date and wish to speak of it later, tell people that you went out with a guy named "_______" and had dinner at "_______" It reinforces in their minds that you do the same things they do, but that both of you are men.
Talk to the Pastor/Chaplain about your feelings that the discussion needs to come forward. I know our pastor would not appreciate this kind of announcement being made without prior knowledge that it was going to happen. I understand your wish to open the issue. I think there are better ways than your public announcement in a worship service.

All that said, I do think you should do something, and who knows if you haven't been placed there "for such a time as this?"

Steve

[Daniel]

Issac- David has an excellent point: do you have a support group/system to help you with the repercussion to your intended action?

There's another theatre saying that applies here: "Safety First". I think you can see from the responses you've gotten that this is on everyone's mind.

While I don't mean to discourage you, I agree with David: you might give some thought to the advantages to coming out to people one on one. This personal approach makes a negative response all that much harder. It's a lot of 'work', but if done with an eye towards those who will become part of your support group- so much the better. You are going to need help when the time comes.

That will make the leap in a bigger forum all that much easier.

Also- to be frank- I'm concerned that this is the second time you've asked if you should do this. If you have doubts about it, I would hold off until they are resolved. Speaking personally, I try to remember to 'check' my inner state/gut before making a move that seems risky. Is it peaceful and calm there? If so, I have my green light.

[BruceChris]

And perhaps some of the leaders in CCF about this. We are out here in internetland, but these people are on your scene, and part of your process. And, the more people that you ask (and come out to in the process), the less need there is to go public, all at once. The situation may resolve itself, if you talk to people you trust, and tell them that it is O.K. for them to tell people that they trust. Eventually, it will get to people that won't like it, but by that time you should have a lot of support already in place.

Or, you may find so much support talking to people individually, that you will come to a place where it becomes very impowering for you to come out to the whole bunch. Or perhaps some of the leaders may say that this is an inappropriate action, but then you can challenge them as to why it is wrong. Take your time, and play it by ear.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Isaac]

davidcom
Do you have the support system in place to attempt this?
Once school starts back up, I definitely plan on speaking to some of my friends about my intentions beforehand.


andrewlittle
If it's just a place to talk, vent and run ideas up the pole, you have that already and I, for one, am very happy to listen and interact.
That would be very nice. Not only would I like to run ideas up the pole but would like to know any ideas others may have. I don't have much experience in trying something like this, so I am more than receptive to any ideas anybody else has that they might think are better.


keltic63
Will the congregation remember the songs that were sung? will they remember the scriptures that were read? or will the only thing they take from the service be your public announcement of your orientation?
I absolutely understand your concerns here. I don't intend to interupt the service in any way. I will wait patiently for the Spirit to prompt as to when I should do this. Also, I'd structure everything into a testimonial so that it wouldn't seem completely random.
Talk to the Pastor/Chaplain about your feelings that the discussion needs to come forward.
That is a very good suggestion, thank you! First I'll talk to my friends (some of whom are staff or interns) and see how they feel. If it's necessary, I would definitely speak to the pastor before going through with this.


Daniel
Also- to be frank- I'm concerned that this is the second time you've asked if you should do this. If you have doubts about it, I would hold off until they are resolved.
I ask if it's a good idea mostly because I have much respect for everyone here. I feel new to the whole idea of activism and feel people here might have a better grasp of the consequences of attempting something like this. However, others are right in saying that I've reflected a lot about this. This is actually something I've been thinking of doing for quite some time. I've just never really done any serious planning until now.

BruceChris
The situation may resolve itself, if you talk to people you trust, and tell them that it is O.K. for them to tell people that they trust. Eventually, it will get to people that won't like it, but by that time you should have a lot of support already in place.
Sadly, I won't be in the community for much longer. I graduate in about 7 months. I really regret not having done something sooner, but alas, hindsight is 20/20.

[tpdncr4christ]

[QUOTE]Sadly, I won't be in the community for much longer. I graduate in about 7 months. I really regret not having done something sooner, but alas, hindsight is 20/20. [QUOTE]

I wouldn't tell them. They love you, it seems, and I don't think they will have time to go throught the greiving process. My counselor says that when someone comes out, it feels like the old person has "died" and this new person has replaced them. And everyone has some degree of greiving to do because of this. And the greiving process takes a long time, and if you are leaving soon, you might leave before they can finally reconcile the fact, and then when you leave your friends there might be distance between you, one which will be very difficult to cross. If they still trust you, don't tell them.

And if you still feel the need to tell them, don't announce it. Personally tell your close friends, and move on. Most people probably already know. They are just waiting for you to say something, or do something. And, actions speak louder than words. If you had more time, I would definatley say tell them. Every time someone comes out, their view of "gay" changes. It is not an easy change, but it will probably be a drastic change for them.

I wouldn't tell anyone, but thats just me. If you feel the need to make an announcement, I want you to be warry. I'm not saying don't, I'm saying be cautious. Its that mask thing I always talk about. If you get up in front of hundreds of people, and throw off your mask, you will probably get hurt in ways you didn't expect. If you ease out of your shell, you will receive small tidbits of pain, but you will be able to handle those. If you keep it on, and stay in the closet, you will have a chance to finish your year pain free, unless someone rips it off. In the end, the choice is ulitimatley yours. But I would, were I you, wait, and not tell them.

You are in my prayers,
Austin

[Isaac]

tpdncr4christ
Personally tell your close friends, and move on.
Most of my close friends already do know because I've told them. It's all the other people there that I want to tell. For them, there probably won't be much of a grieving process because I don't know them, or don't know them very well. I want them to know that there are gay people there that love Jesus, and even more I want people to know that we're human beings.

[este]

i just did this myself, although not in a public forum. for the last 9 months my life has been REALLY difficult. and it was totally worth it. i had to pray very hard and seek the advice of my parents and friends...ultimately, i found no comfort in anyone but god. within the past few weeks i have started an amazing journey. hopefully i can post good news soon about the things that have happened! so, while i think all of the advice you've been given is very sound, you will ultimately do what your heart tells you to. i think we can see what that is!

peace
este

[pnggrad79]

I agree with Keltic to an extent, about detracting from worship, which isn't about us or our agendas. However, on the other hand, I applaud and commend you for coming out to a lot of people. Maybe the forum wasn't the best way, but hey, you did it and you are out and there ain't no going back into the closet now. I have this problem with people saying "Tell only a few people" or "Tell your family and let others just guess" or whatever. I think that is selective shame or something. Straight people don't have any qualms about flaunting their sexuality, why should we? People regularly stand up in a church and commit their lives to each other, why can't we? I think that it is time, if we are going to come out of the closet, we need to come out and stay out. We don't need to apologize or belittle our sexuality just because it makes someone else uncomfortable. Straight people don't even think twice. I say, go ahead, be out, be proud. :)

[BronzDragon]

I have this problem with people saying "Tell only a few people" or "Tell your family and let others just guess" or whatever. I think that is selective shame or something.

» Thom says: ☛ Historically, the Church has thrived on both guilt and shame, and on fear. Fear gets the masses into the church, a lesson learned from the Scourge of God, Attila the Hun. Guilt and Shame keep them in bondage, while at the same time letting those who think they are gods’ gifts to creation have some demeaned individuals to compare themselves favorably to.

In the Beginning, the Elohym created humanity in her image and likeness, and esteemed us as excellent. Some Pope and Caesar determine we are all miserable and we ought to stay that way. Because our society listens to the fellow next to us, and not the god within, we believe that we are miserable. When the truth, that we are the Kingdom of Heaven, comes knocking on our hearts, it can take a while to get over the anger, the hurt, the begging, and finally the acceptance. Yes, it is like learning you are going to die, because it is part of it.

Logic: If God is love, + and we are the image and likeness of God, ∴ then we are love. It is forgetting that, I think, that brings us short of the glory of the Eternal One.

On coming out of the closet, it is always best to let a soul take that at their own speed. I would alter that only if the soul were in a place of political power, and his or her or xer actions were detrimental to humanity, and human sexuality in particular (sort of like Mark Foley). We can help, lend our ears and shoulders, and maybe a personal story or two.

[pnggrad79]

OK Dragon, uh, well said. Not sure I necessarily agree with your theology, but you know, we are all on a different journey and who am I to say that it is wrong, or right or somewhere in the middle. 15 years ago, while still in the throes of Southern Baptist theology, I would have pointed my judgmental finger at you and called you a heretic. But I have withdrawn my pointed finger and judged myself to be a sinner just like everyone else, seeking a relationship with God. That's all I know. Good luck to you Dragon. :)

[BronzDragon]

15 years ago, while still in the throes of Southern Baptist theology, I would have pointed my judgmental finger at you and called you a heretic.

» Thom says: ☛ Actually, the proper term for me is “Apostate.” I have stolen myself (to borrow from B Franklin) from the Church and found my feet on a path the Church would not approve of.

In a proper logical forum, pointing out flaws in an argument is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, the professional logician would welcome such a finger. I will pose my logic once more, and ask that you present how it is flawed.
P1 God is love,
P2+ we are the image and likeness of God,
∴ then we are love.

I suppose one more feature ought to be added to put my final conclussions to light.

If those who lead you say to you, ‘See, the Kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
Yet if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty.
Gospel of St Thomas. 3

The Kingdom does not come by looking for it. Nor does it do to say, “Behold, over here!” or: “Behold, over there!” Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out on the Earth and people do not see it.
Gospel of St Thomas 112,

[dewdrop_world]

According to Christian theology, your P2 is flawed. It is not only that all are made in the image of God, but also that all fall short of "the glory of God" (which I would rephrase as "living in full communion with the God-nature in us").

That may in the end not make much difference, but Christianity at least considers it to be a crucial point.

James

[scott snedeker]

I would rephrase as "living in full communion with the God-nature in us".

I like that one! Very Pagan!

Scotty:cowboy:

[pnggrad79]

Dragon,
I agree that at one time we did have this relationship with God, but we blew it, and because God loved his creation so much, he created a way for that communion to be restored. I believe that way was Jesus.

I don't believe God gives a flying flip about us being gay. I think all he wants is for us to love him and live in communion with him. That was the whole intent and purpose for Jesus even being on this earth.

Whatever journey you are on, I hope you find what you are looking for.:)

[BronzDragon]

Thom,
I agree that at one time we did have this relationship with God, but we blew it, and because God loved his creation so much, he created a way for that communion to be restored. I believe that way was Jesus.

» Thom says: ☛ I believe we are all born in the image and likeness of the Eternal One, that we are ripples and waves on the surface of the ocean. Sometimes we break, sometimes the break is beautiful, sometimes ugly: then again everyone is beautiful until the sun comes up. ;) I believe the only difference between the relationship we have with the Eternal One before and after we get broken is all in our own perspective. Half the Secret of the Scapegoat is that the Rite takes our guilt and shame away, so that we can look at ourselves without it, and restore our own feelings of worth and love, and from that love others.

I don't believe God gives a flying flip about us being gay. I think all he wants is for us to love him and live in communion with him. That was the whole intent and purpose for Jesus even being on this earth.

» Thom says: ☛ I believe the Eternal One cares greatly about who we are, as individuals, as members of a society, as members of a race, as voices in the Universe. This belief extends to caring about our sexuality, and how and with whom we express that with. I would not think the Eternal One says, “Ew!” or makes any sort of judgement about it, per se. One of my mottos is, “We don’t care what you believe, Only why!” This grows from my training in existential psychotherapy. A person believing they are Jesus or the Devil is not a problem … if in believing it they can function gracefully and effectively.

I would say, that given that people like us, who don’t fit modern civilization’s ideas of what is normal for sex and relationships, seems more of a novelty in human experience. Most cultures (well, we can only know so much, given humanity is at least five million years old) seem to enjoy a couple of us around, sometimes for laughs, sometimes for good Mojo, sometimes because we fit where they do not. Modern Civilization has been rejecting us, and what has it gotten them? They seem to misunderstand the purpose of the scapegoat, thinking to project their sins upon us, and make themselves the perfect one. Confessions: “Thank you God! Now I can sin again!”

Being Queer isn’t being broken. The Eternal One put me together like this; let none other tare me asunder!

:oIn the Eyes of the Divine Mother, everyone is beautiful
In the eyes of the Divine Father everyone has a face that only a mother could love.:D

[pnggrad79]

Thom,
While I make no excuses for being a simple Southern Baptist girl, my faith is just that-very simple. I am trying to overcome my simplicity, but in that tearing away of some very complex misinformation handed down to me by my fundamentalist parents, I find I have to get back to basics in order to rebuild my faith from the ground up once more. I am not where you are at, and make no pretentions that I am there. I know some things, not many. What you know and believe is what you know and believe.

What I meant by God doesn't give a flying flip about my sexuality is that in the Bible, which I believe is the main source of information, he didn't make a lot of comments about it-he did make a lot of comments about a whole lot of other stuff. So I will be loud about the things He is loud about and quiet about the things He was quiet about. Simplistic, maybe, but it keeps my head from spinning and keeps things quiet in my spirit.:)

[keltic63]

So I will be loud about the things He is loud about and quiet about the things He was quiet about. Simplistic, maybe, but it keeps my head from spinning and keeps things quiet in my spirit.:)


"Where the Bible speaks, we speak; where the Bible is silent, we are silent." Alexander Campbell (Disciples of Christ)

[BronzDragon]

While I make no excuses for being a simple Southern Baptist girl, my faith is just that-very simple.

» Thom says: ☛ Nothing wrong with keeping it simple. Speak with certainty only what you know for certain.

And I agree, it is only a misinterpretation or misrepresentation of Scripture that leads to so much suffering, for the Oppressed, but much more for the Oppressors.

❝ Be firm of spirit,
resolute in character,
simple in manner,
and slow of speech,
and you will not be far from virtue.
Confucius, The Analects, 13.27 ❞

[sawyer]

Isaac,

I enjoyed reading your posts tonight. Sorry I didnt see it earlier.

I have the same reasons for coming out as you have mentioned. I wanted the people in my family and the rest of the churchs they attend to know that there are gay people in there midst, people that have praised me, yet have bad things to say about gays. I came out at a family reunion over summer which was led by 2 of the 4 pastors in the family. It was more of a weekend revival service. But they said "I dropped a bomb on the reunion", when I said "that I had a significant male friend" during a time when each family told about what is happening in their family. Afterwards, the fundamentalists were silent. They had no wish to dialog with me about it. It was the 2 cousins that are the only "unsaved" in the family that came to me to tell me to "follow my heart that it was OK with them.

What I am doing now is get my checkbook printed with HRC logo and above where I sign my name it says " Working for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender equality" . When you donate to your church they will see what you stand for.

Maybe you could share what Soulforce is about and the dangers of fundamentalism.

I like what Mel White said in the last pages of his book, that we speak out not to try to change their minds. When speak out to try to end suffering, we are empowered and it enriches our lives. Isaac, you may not change one fundamentalist at your church, but you may find out who are the non-fundamentalists.

I think that God had a grand plan in making some of us gay and it was to be a much needed positive influence on the world throughout time. I think we should shout our message from the housetops. Maybe you could wear a t-shirt with "God had a good reason for making me gay".

I think its a good idea.

[Daniel]

But they said "I dropped a bomb on the reunion", when I said "that I had a significant male friend" during a time when each family told about what is happening in their family. Afterwards, the fundamentalists were silent. They had no wish to dialog with me about it. It was the 2 cousins that are the only "unsaved" in the family that came to me to tell me to "follow my heart that it was OK with them.

Sawyer- Though I came out to my family years ago, my experience is very similar in that my conservative/fundi family is unwilling to dialogue with me. They just won't go there come hell or high water (actually- I think they think I'm going to hell). It has made me wryly surmise that fundamentalist thinking is based, in part, on "what will the neighbors think". No one wants to be the one to break with the herd. And the ones not in the herd- well- they seem to only want one to be happy.

I like what Mel White said in the last pages of his book, that we speak out not to try to change their minds. When speak out to try to end suffering, we are empowered and it enriches our lives. Isaac, you may not change one fundamentalist at your church, but you may find out who are the non-fundamentalists.

You're right. You find out pretty quick who your friends are. And ending suffering is what it's all about: revealing that one is gay is one of the first steps to that end.

[sawyer]

Daniel and Isaac: The fundis dont care to think about our happiness. They only care to discuss what they perceive to be right. I think you're right, they dont want to think about it. Perhaps because they have spent their whole life trying to suppress the homosexual feelings they have.

Isaac and Daniel, what if I am wrong? What if God made me with a small amount of attraction for females. Perhaps it is so small of a part I dont think its there or it doesnt show itself. What if God made us all with the same ingredients except he varied the amounts of each. We are all bisexual and bi-gendered. He gave everyone a different amount of male and female traits and attraction to both males and females, some near 50-50, some more some less, some 99%-1%.:confused:

Isaac, what if all 400 members of your church are bisexual, including you? Then everyone is made basically the same. God didnt make any monsters. Then Jesus was bisexual. Then your whole church needs to come out. According to Dr. Truluck, his research of over 50,000 people, he found that a little over 60% of the people studied had at least some same-sex attraction or dreams involving same-sex sex. I would think that the way there is so much fear, suppression, and misinformation about same-sex love, I would wonder if those 38% of the people that claim to be totally straight really are. But at least from Dr. Trulucks studies more than half of the church members are dealing with same-sex attraction issues. And I think there is so much suppression of those feelings and thoughts that, that is why there is so much anger and so much fear to discuss it. People have spent their whole lives trying to pray it all away, trying to not think about it. I think part of the reason church people have such an issue with us is because of the bisexuals in the church that think we are exactly the same as them, that we can just chose the opposite sex and suppress the same-sex attraction.

It took a while for us to be comfortable with who we are in order to tell others that we are not monsters. It will take your fellow bisexual church member a while after they realize who they really are, before they are ready to tell others. Many will take their secret to their grave. Many of us know that living in fear is not happiness.

If we are all bisexuals, then it comes down to a certain type of bisexuals who are predominately attracted to the opposite sex, who are discriminating against a minority type of bisexual who are predominately attracted to the same sex.

No snowflake is the exactly the same, I bet God programed every human to have slightly different amounts of gender and sexual attractions. If God wanted to experience what its like to be human by coming in the form of Jesus, why wouldnt He be bisexual?

Keep on Sawing,
Sawyer

[andrewlittle]

It's back to other posts about continuums and hate fueled by self-loathing and shame-based social and religious judgment.

Are phobias of various kinds just the result of being out of touch, or afraid, of our place on any particular continuum - sexuality and others. If so, that's what therapy should concentrate on.

BTW, I've never been likened to a snowflake before - a flake, yes, but not a snowflake. I kinda like it. Thanks, Sawyer.

[Daniel]

Sawyer- good to hear your thoughts. You hit the nail on the head when you say that fundies only want to talk about what they believe to be right. Such an appalling lack of curiousity! When I was at Evangel College, the whole push was to Christianize everything, every profession, every part of society. As if nothing had value in and of itself without it being manipulated in some way. Everything has to be brought into the clubhouse. And if it's not- it gets thrown on the bonfire.

Could be all be bi? Could be. I don't doubt that on some level. I just know for myself that I'm way on one side of Kinsey's scale- a 6 for-gay-all-the-way. I've never slept with a woman, and the opportunity to do so, when it presented itself over the years, either made me profoundly uncomfortable or made me laugh.

I can think of one woman- a friend- who, in another life, I might have decided to have a dalliance with, just to see what all the fuss is about in a straight guy's head (and the funny thing here that I have to imagine what another guy thinks about a girl! :rolleyes: ), but being the sort of person who always was looking for love in all its fullness, a dalliance isn't a dance I can do.

Dreams are interesting. I've had many dreams where I was a woman and even dreams where I was giving birth as a man. Makes me think that we are all connected on some level. After all, take that chromosome away and we're all female, right? Maybe that's what fundi's (oh so patriarcial!) fear the most. The feminine. (It's not for nothing that the the Eastern Orthodox have Sophia- the personification of Wisdom and Spirit aka Holy Spirit- I find that very interesting. And that faith has deep roots.)

Maybe what bisexuality is really about is- transpersonally speaking- the feminine? I'd like to hear more about that from those who could speak from experience.

This might explain, in part, your thinking about Dr. Truluck's study. Or at least add another wrinkle to think about.

transpersonal

The term Transpersonal is often used to refer to psychological categories that transcend the normal features of ordinary ego-functioning. That is, stages of psychological growth, or stages of consciousness, that move beyond the rational and precedes the mystical. The term is highly associated with the work of Abraham Maslow and his understanding of "peak experiences", and was first adapted by the human potential movement in the 1960's.

[novaseeker]

I think that at least a decent case can be made that bisexuality is rather common in humans. Not only the Kinsey study and other studies support that. History supports it as well. Prior to the rise of Christianity and Judaism, bisexual practice was absolutely rampant in the ancient world -- same-sex attractions were assumed as normal (if not exclusive), while actual gay sex was circumscribed in various ways that our current culture would find repugnant for good reason (e.g., man-boy relationships, master-slave relationships, temple prostitution, etc.). It appears, however, that same sex *attraction* and, within culturally permitted ways, same sex activity was very common. The rise of Judeo-Christianity, with the provisions of Leviticus as they became interpreted in the church and by rabbinical Judaism as well, brought a massive shift in sexual practice to Western culture from the perspective of what was legally and socially permissible. Gay sexual activity persisted, but appears to have been far less rampant than it was prior to the rise of Christianity, which suggests that a goodly number of bisexual people who previously indulged themselves bisexually simply opted for heterosexual relations, while the smaller number of exclusively homosexual persons was subject to extreme persecution over the centuries. It's a complex historical question, of course, but if same-sex attraction is as "unnatural" as some today would have us believe, it's almost impossible to explain what happened in Ancient Greece, the foundational culture for Western civilization, or Ancient Rome for that matter.

Of course, unfortunately all of this history involves male activity. It's unfortunate that we have so little evidence of what, if any, same sex activity was engaged in among women in the ancient world, other than the fragments of Sappho.

[BronzDragon]

Isaac, what if all 400 members of your church are bisexual, including you? ... Then Jesus was bisexual.

» Thom says: ☛ Technically (and this is the danger of all this genetic research) we are all born bisexual. Sexuality has more to do than simple sexual pleasure. It delves much deeper into our natures, right down to our survival instincts, even to our death anxieties.

Think about Nature in general. Females don’t have to prove anything. This is in part why so many are ordinary, don’t really stand out. Males do. The Male has to convince a female that he has what will make her children strong, and survive long enough to make their own selection. So, the Peahen has a bland, ordinary coat that is practical; where the peacock gets this glorious train of feathers that he shows off with all the pride and glory of the Sun. (No, doesn’t exactly apply to humans, but follow me on this.)

Anytime one person does something that is meant to outshine their fellow human, yet in turn strives to get closer to their fellow human, we are expressing our sexuality. Music, art, sports; these are all related to sexuality.

Now, let’s get more personal on this. We are Human. Humans are social animals. We like to be near other humans. This is so important that babies will die without intimate human contact, though we meet every other need. We are each born with a need to be near people, and genetically that does not care if the person you are cuddling with is male, female, or trimale.

Whether nature or nurture programs Sexual arousal (I think with most of us it is a combination of the two) would be a different question. Both genders generally aroused Doric Greeks. I think the problems we are experiencing in Rome-imitating America is of social origin.

[BronzDragon]

Are phobias of various kinds just the result of being out of touch, or afraid, of our place on any particular continuum - sexuality and others. If so, that's what therapy should concentrate on.


» Thom says: ☛ I am actually of the mind that homophobia is a misnomer. Phobias actually arise from deep within our nature. Spiders and Snakes have earned our fear and respect. They are all predators and dangerous, and all spiders and most snakes are poisonous. So, the fear is there to keep us alive. Where the phobia arises is when we haven’t set our fear as our servants. So, we see these animals on TV, or we see a hose out the corner of our eye, and we panic. We do the dead bug boogie and sing the icky road blues, and teach it to our children. Our nurture enhances the fear, it does not create by it.

Homophobia, in my mind, is more of a paranoia. That is, “There is a subject to be mindfully faced, and yet we are thinking about anything but that subject, no mater how close we actually get to it.” I mean, just because I wanna have a committed relationship with someone my gender doesn’t mean I am going to force anyone else to enjoy such a relationship. So, what are they afraid of? Whatever the answer is, is what they are thinking around, and not really thinking about.

[sawyer]

Daniel, I have wondered about the church's appalling lack of curiousity too. I've thought that here they have an actual gay individual to talk to and get their questions answered. But nobody seems to have any questions and nobody cares to talk about it. Its just amazing. I have thought that I was a 6, too, but I wonder if the scale really starts at .0001 and goes up to 5.9999. Maybe there is no black and white, so to speak. As far as dreaming I was a woman or having a baby, I at least can't remember those dreams.

Why does someone want to come out to his church? One who is LGBT sits there and hears so much fear-based crap you just want to set them straight on the facts or at least tell them what its like to listen to that crap all the time you've been in church. But another way of going about it - you know what else people share at those times. Someone says their getting married, and the crowd claps and gets excited. Some dirt poor newlyweds announce that she is PG and going to have a baby( which is another way of saying that they're having great sex, but they should have been more careful and more responsible toward their finances) and everyone claps, and smiles, and congradulates them. When a guy stands up and says he has realized he is gay, there should be smiles and clapping and congradulating his parents. He's not going to be getting any babies until he can afford them. If people were more rational about it, they could find lots of reasons to be glad someone is gay. Gay sons and daughters are often the ones taking care of the folks when they are sick, or driving mom to town in the winter.

I suppose it is nearing the time when Isaac will be back at school. Perhaps he could get his friends to start the clapping and smiling at the appropriate time when he comes out. Is that too profound?

Kram,
sawyer

[sawyer]

In church, it is quite usual to talk about heterosexual intimate relationships and PG(sex), and to consider it Godly, and part of worship. I have often felt that my intimate desires was either one step under God, or on the same plane as God. Why should we think that to come out in church is detracting from worship?

[Daniel]

When a guy stands up and says he has realized he is gay, there should be smiles and clapping and congradulating his parents. He's not going to be getting any babies until he can afford them. If people were more rational about it, they could find lots of reasons to be glad someone is gay. Gay sons and daughters are often the ones taking care of the folks when they are sick, or driving mom to town in the winter.

I suppose it is nearing the time when Isaac will be back at school. Perhaps he could get his friends to start the clapping and smiling at the appropriate time when he comes out. Is that too profound?


The imagining of such an Sunday morning makes me smile. We hardly celebrate ourselves enough, do we? In ways that really count. Instead, we're all worried about how people are going to react, as if they are going to react badly.

Every good teacher knows that changing one's expectations changes the dynamic. If you expect the student to fail, chances are they will. You will do- unwittingly- all the things that ensure it. And then say "see...they really can't amount to anything".

What you are suggesting raises the bar. And it is profound. It is being the change we seek.

I can see that the world that young GLBTQ persons live is is more and more the kind of world where what you suggest is possible, if not a reality.

Heck. Tell me where to show up. I'll clap. Loudly.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by sawyer
When a guy stands up and says he has realized he is gay, there should be smiles and clapping and congradulating his parents. He's not going to be getting any babies until he can afford them. If people were more rational about it, they could find lots of reasons to be glad someone is gay. Gay sons and daughters are often the ones taking care of the folks when they are sick, or driving mom to town in the winter.

I suppose it is nearing the time when Isaac will be back at school. Perhaps he could get his friends to start the clapping and smiling at the appropriate time when he comes out. Is that too profound?

originally posted by Daniel
The imagining of such an Sunday morning makes me smile. We hardly celebrate ourselves enough, do we? In ways that really count. Instead, we're all worried about how people are going to react, as if they are going to react badly.

It might make acceptance contagious! 'Cause every family has at least one of us in it!

Love and affirmation,

Scotty:cowboy:

[Zerbie]

Guess I should mention, for Daniel, Sawyer, and the group at large - I started a new thread on bisexuality so that we could delve into it more, separately from Isaac's coming out.

I put it in the 'gay news/issues' forum, since it isn't about activism.

I'm not sure I get the bisexuality as transpersonal feminine, Daniel. Could you expound? On the new thread? ;)

:)

[keltic63]

BUMP


I'd love an update on this from Isaac!

[hiddenhayd]

may i suggest that you use the term (ssa) same sex attractions instead of Gay as its abit more acceptable.

[Daniel]

may i suggest that you use the term (ssa) same sex attractions instead of Gay as its abit more acceptable.

To whom?

This reader finds your suggestion smacks of internalized homophobia. Why else could you possibly suggest this? If I'm missing something, please fill us in. But for right now, let's get real: Your profile states that your own SSA are not exactly welcome- you use the two words 'NOT chosen', which doesn't sound like a happy thing exactly. In light of this, the above suggestion sounds like you are talkin' to yourself. I think they call that projection counselor!

Dear friend- God loves you- gay or straight or everything in between. You will find many here who can speak to the experience of coming to terms with being gay- which is not the same thing as SSA. That kind of terminology- while it seems a kindness- is anything but. It is a pathologizing of what is part of your nature- and splits what is whole in two.

God does not make junk. Or render his children defective in their search for love and meaning. To think otherwise is to turn truth upside down.

[Zerbie]

Daniel's correct about the use of terminology. It does sound pathologizing to label an entire affectional orientation that way.

Hayden I am quite confused by your self-description. I have gotten mixed messages that you are gay, single, open to dating, but on the other hand I see you write that you left "the gay lifestyle" because it was not pleasing to God. So I am not clear what it is you that you left, or who you are looking to date. And I'm also not clear if you're here to hang around as one o' the gang, or if it's to persuade others here to try some kind of ex-gay ministry.

Hope you don't mind that I ask point blank for clarification. 'Cause I can't tell. :confused:

[jlgosnell]

For as early as I can remember I have been involved in the Church particularly the United Methodist Church. However, my dark little secret keeps getting in the way. On Sunday's I hide my true self from the church, and hope so much that I am not noticed by the congregation when I am being my true self or when I participate in visibilities or activism such as the right to serve campaign.

I guess I just feel really let down that I can't be myself within the church without being talked about when I am not in the room. I wish my fear was simply that of paranoia however, I have been in a Sunday school class where somebody has talked about other gay members of the church.

Sometimes, I desire to just start traveling and maybe I'll find the utopia Christ talks about, but then other times I think I should just cross that line and be open and see what happens.

Although, there are times when I think about forgetting about God, Christ, Heaven because it appears that many Christians & denomonations have done just that.

Losing Faith
Jeremy

[u-dog]

Hi Jeremy,

I hear your frustration and your hopelessness and I can relate to it. I've been in similar places before myself (it REALLY sucks when you're the pastor and you start feeling that way :D )

My mom was a person who LOVED her church and Jesus and God and other people, but even she used to get exasperated occasionally and she used to say "The Church would be a wonderful place ... if it weren't for the people" The church is not a community of the saved. Its a community of people who understand that they NEED saving. Sometimes church people forget that reality. Its just part of being a human being though and you have to forgive them. There is no perfect church (or country or community or neighborhood or family) because the one thing they all have in common is that they are made up of human beings.

Having said that, I have recently had the experience of worshipping at an MCC church. I'm not even "out" there but the feeling of authenticity in the worship service is totally awesome (in the original spiritual meaning of that word). The only way that I can describe my experience of worship in that community is that for the first time in my life I feel "seen" by God. Because even though I have not come out to that community (only to the pastors) I am, for the first time, bringing my whole self to worship. It is amazing.

In my experience (personal experience and the experience others have shared with me) the true spiritual path is ALWAYS marked by times of wandering in the desert. This is described as "wilderness", "Desert", "Dark night of the Soul" and other names. Their purpose (or at least their effect) is to PUSH us to another level of spiritual experience -- a deeper and more satisfying level. I don't think that you are losing your faith, Jeremy, it sounds more like you are in "the wilderness". You may have to stay there for a while until you discern where you are supposed to go, or what you are supposed to do, next.

The next step MAY be to prepare yourself emotionally and then Disclose your identity to your current community of faith. Or it may be that it is time to seek another community of faith more able to support you in the next phase of your spiritual journey.

Continue to pray, read scripture, spend time in nature -- whatever it is that you do to open yourself to voice of the Spirit and EVENTUALLY the next step will be revealled to you. Lucky for you... Lent started yesterday. Lent was invented precisely for this purpose!

Know that you are not alone in this wilderness. Plenty of us here have travelled and ARE NOW travelling that same trackless waste. And God lives there. You are among friends here and are in ALL of our prayers so feel free to share your joy and your discouragement here!

Dave