The KJV Is The Inerrant Word Of God (Jesus Christ)

[cjb]

I wouldn't say the Bible is fiction. In fact....it is very accurate and reliable in the matters of history.

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Isaiah 43:4-5 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life. Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

Isaiah foretold of the worldwide return of Jews to Israel
Bible passage: Isaiah 43:5-6
Prophet: Isaiah
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s

In Isaiah 43:5-6, the prophet said that the people of Israel would return to their homeland from the east, the west, the north and the south. Isaiah lived 2700 years ago. Beginning at that time, a succession of empires conquered the land of Israel and forced many into exile. This led to a worldwide scattering of Jews. But, during the past century, millions have returned to Israel.

From the east: Many Jews living in Middle East countries moved to Israel during the 1900s. After Israel reclaimed independence in 1948, more Jews moved to their ancient homeland after being forced out of various Arab countries in which they had been living for centuries.

From the west: During the mid-1900s, hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the West (Europe and the United States) began moving to Israel to escape various persecutions, most notably, the Holocaust in Nazi Germany.

From the north: Hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the former Soviet Union have moved to Israel since the 1980s.

From the south: During the 1980s and 1990s, Israel struck a deal with Ethiopia's communist government to allow Jews of Ethiopia to move to Israel. On the weekend of May 25, 1991, for example, 14,500 Ethiopian Jews were airlifted to Israel.

Isaiah's prophecy was also correct in saying that the north (Russia) and the south (Ethiopia) would have to be persuaded to allow their Jews to move to Israel. Many countries pressured Russia for years before it began to allow its Jews to leave. And Ethiopia had to be paid a ransom to allow its Jews to leave.

Isaiah's prophecy was also correct in saying that the Jews would return "from the ends of the earth," and Isaiah said that many centuries before the Jews had been scattered to the ends of the earth. During the past 100 years, Jews living as far east as China, as far west as the West Coast of the United States, as far north as Scandinavia, and as far south as South Africa, Australia and South America, have moved to Israel.

Isaiah 27:12-13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

God promised to restore the Jews
Bible passage: Isaiah 27:12-13
Prophet: Isaiah
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: Since late 1800s

In Isaiah 27:12-13, the prophet said that the exiled Jews would return to their homeland. During the time of Isaiah, about 2700 years ago, the Assyrians were conquering the northern part of the Jewish homeland and forcing many Jews into exile. A few hundred years later, the Babylonians did the same to the southern part of the homeland. Many Jews did return during the centuries that followed. They rebuilt the Temple and worshipped at the Temple. But, in 70 AD and in 135 AD, the Romans suppressed two uprisings among Jews in Jerusalem, who fought, unsuccessfully, for independence from the Roman Empire. After each of the uprisings, the Romans exiled hundreds of thousands of Jews. After the second uprising, the Romans temporarily banned Jews from living in Jerusalem. But the Jews have been returning in large numbers since the late 1800s. So far, about one of every three Jews in the world now live in Israel.

Isaiah 35:1-2 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

Isaiah foretold the restoration of Israel
Bible passage: Isaiah 35:1-2
Prophet: Isaiah
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 1900s

In Isaiah 35:1-2, the prophet said that although Israel would become a desolate land, its deserts would one day bloom again. This Bible verse foreshadows the restoration of Israel that has been taking place since the early 1900s. Millions of Jews have returned to their ancient homeland and have innovated sophisticated farming techniques and extensive reforestation programs to convert parched desert into productive farmland. More than 200 million trees have been planted in Israel since 1900, according to the Jewish National Fund.

Amen....:)

[NathanATX]

I believe we can find the words of God in the Word.

The Bible is what it is, nothing more, nothing less.

I think we sometimes elevate it to a form of deity... We can certainly see revelations & pictures of who God is in the Bible, but I think we should be careful about idolizing the bible.

Recommended reading: A New Christianity for a New World by John Shelby Spong

[Emproph]

I wouldn't say the Bible is fiction. In fact....it is very accurate and reliable in the matters of history.

Accuracy is not the same as inerrancy.

Edit (Actually I'm wrong about that, accuracy is pretty much the same as inerrancy. Sorry cjb) :o

[NonLemming]

I agree with you Nathan. The bible is, for many, a way get closer to the essence of God. But far too many diefy it, I fear, instead of deifying its subject. I've known many people who quote the bible or wear a larger than necessary cross in order to wear religion on their sleeves. And that is the type of idol worship that many, especially Moses, warned about. Granted in Moses' day, it was a calf, today it could be a bag of cash, a trophy wife,or 1000 shares of GM stock, or a crucifix or blood weeping statues, or even the bible itself. We must be careful of what we worship.

[keltic63]

wow, not even a "hello" thread, just jump right in with a thread that could very likely stir up some very strong emotions. Post a few news stories, a little current history, call it prophecy fulfilled, entitle the thread with what appears to be bait, then walk off and watch the fireworks. Sorry, I'm not jumping in on this one.

[cjb]

MOSESwas a Hebrew born in Egypt about 3400 years ago.

Unknown to Moses and the rest of the Israelites, their camp was laid out in the figure of a cross. Quite amazing, while at the time, the cross wasn’t a Jewish symbol. And what’s more amazing, (without knowing it) Moses also foretold that Jesus Christ would come out the EAST from the tribe of Judah.
Bible passage: Numbers 2
Prophet: Moses
Written: perhaps around 1400 BC
Fulfilled: the day that Jesus Christ died on the cross – around 32 AD

Nu:2:1: And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
Nu:2:2: Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.
Nu:2:3: And on the east side toward the rising of the sunshall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain of the children of Judah.
Nu:2:4: And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred. 74,600
Nu:2:5: And those that do pitch next unto him shall be the tribe of Issachar: and Nethaneel the son of Zuar shall be captain of the children of Issachar.
Nu:2:6: And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred. 54,400
Nu:2:7: Then the tribe of Zebulun: and Eliab the son of Helon shall be captain of the children of Zebulun.
Nu:2:8: And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred. 57,400
Nu:2:9: All that were numbered in the camp of Judah were an hundred thousand and fourscore thousand and six thousand and four hundred, throughout their armies. These shall first set forth. 186,400

Nu:2:10: On the south side shall be the standard of the camp of Reuben according to their armies: and the captain of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur.
Nu:2:11: And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were forty and six thousand and five hundred. 46,500
Nu:2:12: And those which pitch by him shall be the tribe of Simeon: and the captain of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.
Nu:2:13: And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred. 59,300
Nu:2:14: Then the tribe of Gad: and the captain of the sons of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel.
Nu:2:15: And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and five thousand and six hundred and fifty. 45,650
Nu:2:16: All that were numbered in the camp of Reuben were an hundred thousand and fifty and one thousand and four hundred and fifty, throughout their armies. And they shall set forth in the second rank. 151,450

Nu:2:17: Then the tabernacle of the congregation shall set forward with the camp of the Levites in the midst of the camp: as they encamp, so shall they set forward, every man in his place by their standards.

Nu:2:18: On the west side shall be the standard of the camp of Ephraim according to their armies: and the captain of the sons of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.
Nu:2:19: And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty thousand and five hundred. 40,500
Nu:2:20: And by him shall be the tribe of Manasseh: and the captain of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.
Nu:2:21: And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred. 32,200
Nu:2:22: Then the tribe of Benjamin: and the captain of the sons of Benjamin shall be Abidan the son of Gideoni.
Nu:2:23: And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred. 35,400
Nu:2:24: All that were numbered of the camp of Ephraim were an hundred thousand and eight thousand and an hundred, throughout their armies. And they shall go forward in the third rank. 108,100

Nu:2:25: The standard of the camp of Dan shall be on the north side by their armies: and the captain of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.
Nu:2:26: And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred. 62,700
Nu:2:27: And those that encamp by him shall be the tribe of Asher: and the captain of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran.
Nu:2:28: And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and one thousand and five hundred. 41,500
Nu:2:29: Then the tribe of Naphtali: and the captain of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan.
Nu:2:30: And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred. 53,400
Nu:2:31: All they that were numbered in the camp of Dan were an hundred thousand and fifty and seven thousand and six hundred. 157,600 They shall go hindmost with their standards.
Nu:2:32: These are those which were numbered of the children of Israel by the house of their fathers: all those that were numbered of the camps throughout their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty. 603,550
Nu:2:33: But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Nu:2:34: And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses: so they pitched by their standards, and so they set forward, every one after their families, according to the house of their fathers.


The Camp Of Israel

Numbers 2

Judah 74,600 Ephraim 40,500
Issachar 54,400 Manasseh 32,200
Zebulin 57,400 Benjamin 35,400
-------- ---------
186,400 108,100

Reuben 46,500 Dan 62,700
Simeon 59,300 Asher 41,500
Gad 45,650 Naphtali 53,400
--------- ---------
151,450 157,600




Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Matthew 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

http://webfiles.hypermart.net/cross1.jpg

PS....I haven't posted an run off to watch the fireworks.....;) I'm not online 24 hours a day. I do have a job.

More to come...:)

[photosynthesis]

I believe we can find the words of God in the Word.

The Bible is what it is, nothing more, nothing less.

I think we sometimes elevate it to a form of deity... We can certainly see revelations & pictures of who God is in the Bible, but I think we should be careful about idolizing the bible.

Recommended reading: A New Christianity for a New World by John Shelby Spong
I too, have seen how people can make the Bible into an idol of its own. However, treating the Bible as an infallible document is hardly idolatrous. We must remember that the Holy Spirit is powerful enough to work through human tradition, guiding the composition and canonization of Biblical texts.

[cjb]

I believe we can find the words of God in the Word.

The Bible is what it is, nothing more, nothing less.

I think we sometimes elevate it to a form of deity... We can certainly see revelations & pictures of who God is in the Bible, but I think we should be careful about idolizing the bible.




We should elevate the Bible to the form of diety, after all....Jesus Christ made it clear, the Word Is God:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Re 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

You cannot Love God (Jesus Christ) and say you don't believe in what he has to say.

There's two things that Jesus Christ cannot do:
1. He cannot Learn
2. He cannot Lie

Rejection is calling him a liar.

[photosynthesis]

We should elevate the Bible to the form of diety, after all....Jesus Christ made it clear, the Word Is God:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Re 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

You cannot Love God (Jesus Christ) and say you don't believe in what he has to say.

There's two things that Jesus Christ cannot do:
1. He cannot Learn
2. He cannot Lie

Rejection is calling him a liar.
Actually, saying Jesus can't learn is denying the fact that he had a human nature. The fact that Jesus grew up with human parents and experienced all of the things of childhood is part of the mysery of the Incarnation. I imagine he would have learned about carpentry from St. Joseph, his foster-father. That doesn't supercede the fact that he is also the Divine Teacher.

[cjb]

To say Jesus had a human nature denies him his rightful title. Which is LORD. Certain people knew who he was and so did he.

Lu 2:11 - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Luke 2:29-30 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

Luke 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

Lu 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Luke 2:45-47 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

Luke 2:48-49 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?


Zechariah foreshadowed the betrayal of Jesus for 30 pieces of silver
Bible passage: Zechariah 11:12-13
Prophet: Zechariah
Written: between 520 and 518 BC
Fulfilled: About 32 AD

Zechariah 11:11-13 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

David foreshadowed the crucifiction of Jesus
Bible passage: Psalms 22:16
Prophet: King David
Written: Around a 1000 BC
Fulfilled: About 32 AD


Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.


Crucifixion is an ancient method of execution, where the victim was tied or nailed to a large wooden cross (Latin: crux) and left to hang there until dead. It was a fairly common form of execution from the 6th century BC, especially among the Persians, Egyptians, Carthaginians, and Romans, until c. 313 AD, when Christianity became the dominant faith in Rome. Crucifixion has special significance in Christianity as Jesus was put to death by the Romans by being nailed to a cross.


What's most amazing.....IS The FACT....that the use of crucifixion as a way of execution was prophesied about and described by David 400 Years before it was invented/used.

Jesus is truly Lord...amen :)

More to come....

[NathanATX]

My thoughts are that cjb is just here to "cut & paste" fundamentalist doctrine, like the "accuracy" of bible prophecy, in order to lay a foundation for his/her ex-gay beliefs. I may be incorrect, of course.

At any rate, I think the following post and my response address some of the things cjb is posting.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion
To all you folks:
Obviously, we cannot interpret everything in the Bible as literal, since there are different types of literature within the Bible. And yes, God is bigger than simple stories. On that we agree. However, I am still curious how you decide what is allegorical/metaphorical and what is not. What is the basis of your discrimination between literal and allegorical, besides personal inclination? I appreciate NathanATX indicating that he honors how the Spirit speaks to me, but if the Spirit is speaking different things to us, then how can it be the same Spirit? How can you feel secure in personal beliefs that you do not consider right or wrong? God is unchanging and immutable. His counsels are everlasting throughout all eternity and there can be no contradiction within Him. God does not adapt to us, nor is His Gospel made to conform to our human motives and desires. It is we that must change, that must examine our lives and enter into obedience with the eternal laws of God's wisdom and covenant specified in the Holy Scriptures.

The story of Adam and Eve may indeed be allegorical, but then what is the significance of the characters in the allegory? Are Biblical allegories not used for teaching godly living? Dismissing the Bible as allegorical does not get anyone off the hook. Biblical allegory and parable is just as potent as Biblical history.

Is there absolute truth? Is there any kind of ultimate morality or standard of righteousness? What is the Bible? Who is God?This must be the question we address, rather than the fine points of doctrine and interpretation that only serve as a temporary smoke screen and only get us bogged down.

thanks all
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Legion, the questions you pose are exactly the questions the church needs to be asking today. I'll do my best to answer your questions from my perspective or let you know how I am seeking the answers myself.

"However, I am still curious how you decide what is allegorical/metaphorical and what is not. What is the basis of your discrimination between literal and allegorical, besides personal inclination?"

Well, I do a lot of reading for one. But the main basis I use is simple, common knowledge that we all have today. Thousands of years after the Bible was first compiled, we understand life completely differently. And the biblical writers' understanding of life was pivotal to the content of the stories and depictions of God they enscribed. If the underlying knowledge changes, doesn't that affect everything written based on that knowledge?

For example: the human-ness of Jesus. Biblical writers understood reproduction to be soley generated from the male. There wasn't a female counterpart needed, other than a womb for the male's baby to grow. Jesus was said to be "God in the flesh" because Mary was suppossed to have been supernaturally inseminated by God. Today we know that it takes the male & the female dna to create life. So the questions we now have are: Is Jesus fully God? Is Jesus 50% God and 50% human? How do these questions affect our Christology?

"I appreciate NathanATX indicating that he honors how the Spirit speaks to me, but if the Spirit is speaking different things to us, then how can it be the same Spirit? How can you feel secure in personal beliefs that you do not consider right or wrong?"

I think our individual traditions & experiences shape how we hear the Spirit. It would be very self-righteous and judgemental of me to hear you share something you believe that Spirit has revealed to you and tell you "you're wrong." Instead, I choose to appreciate that you say you are intent on listening to Spirit. If I have an opinion that is different from yours, I can share it in a way that doesn't leave you feeling evaluated or judged... it's just how Spirit speaks to me.

The security issue is very interesting. Do we choose to believe certain things because we are insecure? In "A New Christianity for a New World," John Shelby Spong talks about the "hysteria of self-consciousness" or the fear that hits people when we realize our frail humanity and our inability to protect ourselves from the finality of death. If that fear is the fundamental reason we believe in God, is our belief genuine? What if we were able to be brave in spite of our frailty? Would our understanding and views of God change? I think so.

"The story of Adam and Eve may indeed be allegorical, but then what is the significance of the characters in the allegory? Are Biblical allegories not used for teaching godly living?"

This line of questioning is right on the money! Through deciphering the meaning and the overall intent of these stories and passages, we can learn how God was known to the biblical writers. Through evaluating the culture and context of liturgies and stories, we can identify the reasons behind a lot of these writings.

One big question this brings up is the theology of atonement. If we understand the story of Adam & Eve to be allegorical and that "the fall" of mankind didn't really happen, then the theology of needing a savior to redeem sinners isn't neccessarily needed.

"Is there absolute truth? Is there any kind of ultimate morality or standard of righteousness? What is the Bible? Who is God?"

These are certainly the questions the church must grapple with and answer if it is to survive what John Shelby Spong calls the "death of theism" or the dying theologies that our current day wisdom and knowledge are disproving. Either Christianity finds a new and relevant interpretation of our faith tradition or we risk losing it altogether.

I HIGHLY recommend reading "Here I stand: My struggle for an authentic Christianity" and "A New Christianity for a New World" by John Shelby Spong.

[SolInvictus]

Respectfully, revering a sacred text as deity is equal to idoltry. It is an inanimate object w/ inscribed words written by men & women in the past. While it can be spiritually inspired, elevating a text to a deity is to lessen the value of the message & spiritual teacher.

When John refers to the "Word made flesh," he is referring to Jesus. Thus, the Bible, is not Jesus. By definition, Bible translates as "collection of books." Therefore, Holy Bible would describe a "sacred collection of books," and not a deified object (idol).

Furthurmore, remember the Jewish context of Christian worship to put things in perspective: the Word/Logos can refer to Wisdom or feminine personification of God. A Catholic Bible would be a great reference & Nag Hammadi texts to elaborate on this understanding of the term.

People seem to forget the history of the Bible. In taken in proper context & if based on a literal interpretation, then the original Bible is the Torah or first five books of the Bible, and/or the original Hebrew & Greek texts should be the sole source. Thus, a medieval translation during the reign of King James would not be properly understood unless such a person is familiar with Elisabethan English & original meaning tied to the terms, words, and phrases.

For a modern understanding, these translations would be best (in my opinion): RSV, NRSV (my preference), and/or New Jerusalem. The NIV & Good News translations are also translated into modern English.

This may not be the case in regards to the poster of the topic, but people I've met who support such theories (KJV as inerrant) believe Jesus was caucasian & spoke English. Factually speaking, Jesus was a Jewish man in Judea/Israel, and thus was more than likely dark-skinned, and the common language in the Galilee region was Aramaic, a Hebrew dialect.

The modern Bible, historically speaking, is derived from a large selection of many different texts selected by bishops & priests by order of the Roman emperor, Constantine the Great, and later approved by the Catholic church.
During the Reformation, Martin Luther & other Protestants had Tobit, Jubilees, Wisdom of Solomon, and some other books removed from their version of the Bible due to doctrinal disagreement with the Catholic orthodoxy.

In regards to the "prophecy" of the crucifixion of Christ, that can be found in the Book of Isaiah (not written by David), an Old Testament prophet. This verse is sometimes called the verse of The Suffering Servant:
"He was despised and rejected by others; a man of suffering, and acquainted with infirmity; and as one from whom others hide their faces. He was despised, and we held him of no account. Surely, he has borne our iniquities and carried our diseases; yet we accounted him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions...by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:3-5

[cjb]

the Word/Logos can refer to Wisdom or feminine personification of God.

LOGOS.....Hmmmmmm

Please help me out here...????

From what source do you draw he conclusion that GOD has a feminine side.

Lo·gosPronunciation Key
n.

Philosophy.
In pre-Socratic philosophy, the principle governing the cosmos, the source of this principle, or human reasoning about the cosmos. Among the Sophists, the topics of rational argument or the arguments themselves.
In Stoicism, the active, material, rational principle of the cosmos; nous. Identified with God, it is the source of all activity and generation and is the power of reason residing in the human soul.
Judaism.

In biblical Judaism, the word of God, which itself has creative power and is God's medium of communication with the human race.
In Hellenistic Judaism, a hypostasis associated with divine wisdom.
Christianity. In Saint John's Gospel, especially in the prologue (1:1-14), the creative word of God, which is itself God and incarnate in Jesus. Also called Word.logos
n : the divine word of God; the second person in the Trinity (incarnate in Jesus)


Could it be from the rants of latest NewAge "We All Must Be Tolerate" author...??? Just Curious..!!!!


fem·i·ninePronunciation Key

Of or relating to women or girls.
Characterized by or possessing qualities generally attributed to a woman.
Effeminate; womanish.1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

The Greek Meaning of Effeminate:

malakoV malakos mal-ak-os'

of uncertainaffinity; soft, i.e. fine (clothing); figuratively, a catamite:--effeminate, soft.

un·cer·tainPronunciation Key

Not known or established; questionable:adhloV adelos ad'-ay-los

from 1 (as a negative particle) and 1212; hidden, figuratively, indistinct:--appear not, uncertain

af·fin·i·tyPronunciation Key
n. pl. af·fin·i·ties

A natural attraction, liking, or feeling of kinship.
Relationship by marriage.1Co 6:9

6:9 η ουκ οιδατε οτι αδικοι βασιλειαν θεου ου κληρονομησουσιν μη πλανασθε ουτε πορνοι ουτε ειδωλολατραι ουτε μοιχοι ουτε μαλακοι ουτε αρσενοκοιται

Pronunciation Guide:

malakos {mal-ak-os'}

Part of Speech - adjective

1) soft, soft to the touch
2) metaph. in a bad sense
a) effeminate
1) of a catamite
2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
4)of a male prostitute

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1138554341-9654.html



For those who wish to throw out the "Translation" wild card as justification....well sorry....whether English or Greek...it says the same thing.

[cjb]

In regards to the "prophecy" of the crucifixion of Christ, that can be found in the Book of Isaiah (not written by David), an Old Testament prophet. This verse is sometimes called the verse of The Suffering Servant:
"He was despised and rejected by others; a man of suffering, and acquainted with infirmity; and as one from whom others hide their faces. He was despised, and we held him of no account. Surely, he has borne our iniquities and carried our diseases; yet we accounted him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions...by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:3-5


This verse deals with the rejection by the Jews.

The crucifixion is a result of rejection.

[cjb]

Daniel predicted the split of the Greek Empire after the death of Alexander.

Four Regions
Bible passage: Daniel 8:19-22, 11:2-4
Prophet: Daniel
Written: about 530 BC
Fulfilled: At the time of Alexander's Death


[19] And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be].

[20] The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia.

[21] And the rough goat the king of Grecia: and the great horn that between his eyes [is] the first king.

[22] Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. (Dan 8:19-22 KJV)


[2] And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than [they] all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

[3] And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

[4] And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those. (Dan 11:2-4 KJV)

Being broken. After Alexander's death, in the prime of life and in the height
of his conquests, his brother and two sons were all murdered; and the kingdom
was divided among four of his generals.

1. Seleucus, who had Syria and Babylon;

2. Lysimachus, who had Asia Minor;

3. Ptolemy II, who had Egypt; and, (Responsible for translating the Hebrew to Greek - The Septuagint)

4. Cassander, who had Greece, etc.


Sep·tu·a·gint http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fr%3D2%26q%3DSeptuagint) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (shttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gifphttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/oomacr.gif-http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif-jhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifnthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gif, shttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gifp-thttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/oomacr.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif-jhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifnt, -tyhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/oomacr.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif-)
[I]n.
A Greek version of the Hebrew Scriptures that dates from the 3rd century B.C., containing both a translation of the Hebrew and additional and variant material, regarded as the standard form of the Old Testament in the early Christian Church and still canonical in the Eastern Orthodox Church

Septuagint
n : the oldest Greek version of the Old Testament; said to have been translated from the Hebrew by Jewish scholars at the request of Ptolemy II

Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the [I]Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars. :)

More To Come......

[NonLemming]

cjb stated:

From what source do you draw he conclusion that GOD has a feminine side.


Wait a minute, I know I was taught that God created man in "His" own image. I always assumed that meant "mankind", which I also thought was pretty egotistical of us, but I went with it. Now you mean to tell me that God has a penis? If anything, I would have thought God had both sex organs if he/she/it had any. So he has a large penis? With whom does he copulate or from where does the "feminine side" originate?

This is very disconcerting.

[cjb]

Again....no proof was presented...!!!!!

I don't have problem with God (Jesus Christ) being a man only.

1. If he was feminine....why would he say for men not to be feminine.

2. If he was both sexes what was the purpose of having two separate beings with differant sexes in the first place

But I suppose that the thinking of the New Age movement. They would rather have a god that's a androgenous earthworm.

[Joe Brummer]

Again....no proof was presented...!!!!!

I don't have problem with God (Jesus Christ) being a man only.

1. If he was feminine....why would he say for men not to be feminine.

2. If he was both sexes what was the purpose of having two separate beings with differant sexes in the first place

But I suppose that the thinking of the New Age movement. They would rather have a god that's a androgenous earthworm.


Could you please point out to me where Jesus said men should not be effemite? I can see some places in the bible where such things could be found, but nothing said by Christ.

[SolInvictus]

Due to a busy weekend,
I wasn't online to answer your replies cjb. "Ask and ye shall receive..."

First, I did not say Jesus had a feminine side - I said God did. In the Kabbalah, Sheckinah is the feminine aspect of God, of God's radiant Light.
In Christian Gnosticism, Pistia Sophia refers to the Mother of Gods or Wisdom that transcends deities. These sources are available in the translated Kabbalah text, and the Nag Hammadi Texts written by early Christians & Gnostic Christians. Gnosis refers to knowledge, and thus Gnostics believed knowledge as the ultimate source of salvation.

Now, to cite direct Biblical passages that God had a possible feminine side:

"Does not wisdom call, and does not understanding raise her voice. On the heights, beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries out: To you, O people, I call, and my cry is to all that live. O simple ones, learn prudence; acquire intelligence for those who lack it..." Proverbs 8:1-5 NRSV Translation.

"The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first acts of long ago. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth"
Proverbs 8:22-23 NRSV Translation.

"Wisdom has built her house, she has hewn her seven pillars" Proverbs 9:1 NRSV Translation.

"For wisdom is a kindly spirit, and will not free a blasphemer from the guilt of her words" Wisdom of Solomon 1:6 RSV Catholic Edition.

"Wisdom rescued from troubles those who served her" Wisdom of Solomon 10:9 RSV Catholic Edition.

As you can see, cjb, the Protestant & Catholic translations of the Bible both refer to the feminine side of God, Wisdom, also called the Holy Spirit (Pistia Sophia).

Logos/The Word does refer to Jesus, I agree, as God Made Flesh as the "spirit made truth."

In Peace,
Sol

[cjb]

Could you please point out to me where Jesus said men should not be effemite? I can see some places in the bible where such things could be found, but nothing said by Christ.


Sure....I can do that. Paul was appointed by Jesus Christ to be his witness. So through the Holy Spririt..... whatever Paul wrote and taught was a direction from Jesus Christ himself.


Ac:22:6: And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
Ac:22:7: And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Ac:22:8: And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Ac:22:9: And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
Ac:22:10: And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
Ac:22:11: And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
Ac:22:12: And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Ac:22:13: Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
Ac:22:14: And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Ac:22:15: For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Ac:22:16: And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Book Introduction - 1 Corinthians

WRITER: The Apostle Paul. His relation to the church at Corinth is set forth in Acts 18:1-18 and in the Epistles to the Corinthians.

DATE: First Corinthians was written in A.D. 59, at the close of Paul's three year's residence in Ephesus. Acts 20:31; 1 Corinthians 16:5-8.

1Co:6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

[Joe Brummer]

Sorry, I know you put much thought into that post, but I really wanted to hear what Christ said, not people who claim they can speak for him. It is my understanding Christ was dead for many years before Paul came along. I would have a hard time grasping how Jesus asked Paul to be his witness when to my knowledge they two live 100 years apart.


What did christ himself say?


Here is some basic (very basic) background on the timeline of things:

Main article: Historicity of Jesus

Most modern scholars hold that the works describing Jesus were initially communicated by oral tradition, and were not committed to writing until several decades after Jesus' crucifixion. The earliest extant texts which refer to Jesus are Paul's letters, which are usually dated from the mid-1st century. Paul saw Jesus only in visions, but he claimed that they were divine revelations and hence authoritative (Galatians 1:11-12). The earliest extant texts describing Jesus in any detail were the four New Testament Gospels. These texts, being part of the Biblical canon, have received much more analysis and acceptance from Christian sources than other possible sources for information on Jesus.

Many apocryphal texts have also surfaced detailing events in Jesus' life and teachings, chief among them the Gospel of Thomas, a "sayings gospel" or logia consisting primarily of phrases attributed to Jesus. Other New Testament apocrypha, generally considered less important, include the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the Infancy Gospels, the Gospel of Peter, the Unknown Berlin Gospel, the Naassene Fragment, the Secret Gospel of Mark, the Egerton Gospel, the Oxyrhynchus Gospels and the Fayyum Fragment. A number of Christian traditions (such as Veronica's veil and the Assumption of Mary) are found not in the canonical gospels, but in these and other apocryphal works, such as the Acts of Pilate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

[NathanATX]

Sure....I can do that. Paul was appointed by Jesus Christ to be his witness. So through the Holy Spririt..... whatever Paul wrote and taught was a direction from Jesus Christ himself.


Either Jesus said it or He didn't.

[NathanATX]

I don't want to say "I told you so," but cjb's diatribe on the femininity of God is leading to a justification for a "biblical" condemnation of homosexuality. 1 Cor. 6:9 is a verse that fundamentalists typically try to distort to abuse gay people.

There are MANY more feminine descriptions of God than masculine. One of the most widely celebrated names of God, "El Shaddai" means nursing mother.

[NonLemming]

Good response Nathan. As Jesus and Paul weren't alive at the same time, someone could also hypothetically say that since Jesus told Pat Robertson to spread his word (that would be a REAL stretch of faith), Pat Robertson's word is the word of Jesus Christ. Now wouldn't that be frightening!

The most beautiful gospel to me is the Q gospel and it didn't even make it into the final cut of the Bible. I suppose the editors figured they could embellish his teachings to make them "better". The original "sayings gospel" is the nut of the matter. The rest is all exposition......"A statement or rhetorical discourse intended to give information about or an explanation of difficult material."

[keltic63]

I Corinthians 2:4-5
4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. KJV

4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. NIV

so the debate really is over. there's no need to go through long explanations with word maps and charts, no need to find obscure etymologies. The Bible clearly says that it is pointless to do so.

[keltic63]

I don't want to say "I told you so," but cjb's diatribe on the femininity of God is leading to a justification for a "biblical" condemnation of homosexuality. 1 Cor. 6:9 is a verse that fundamentalists typically try to distort to abuse gay people.

There are MANY more feminine descriptions of God than masculine. One of the most widely celebrated names of God, "El Shaddai" means nursing mother.

yeah, I saw that coming too.

[cjb]

Sorry, I know you put much thought into that post, but I really wanted to hear what Christ said, not people who claim they can speak for him. It is my understanding Christ was dead for many years before Paul came along. I would have a hard time grasping how Jesus asked Paul to be his witness when to my knowledge they two live 100 years apart.



Paul was alive at the death of Jesus. However, he was a pharisee who persecuted the Christians.

Paul's Timeline:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.html


What did christ himself say?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

It's quite apparent to me...Jesus said with his own words....the Holy Spirit would be sent. So I don't have a problem with Jesus teaching through Paul.

[OLD TESTAMENT evidence that Jesus existed before his birth]


[OLD TESTAMENT] Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

[NEW TESTAMENT] John 8:56-58 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

So it's obvious...God/Jesus Christ are the same. So whatever God said in the Old Testament is the same as Jesus saying it.

[cjb]

I don't want to say "I told you so," but cjb's diatribe on the femininity of God is leading to a justification for a "biblical" condemnation of homosexuality. 1 Cor. 6:9 is a verse that fundamentalists typically try to distort to abuse gay people.

Sorry...it says what it says and means what it means. When you approach a STOP SIGN....do you GO instead. And when your caught....do you tell the judge...."Well....GO is my interpretation...????

The term abuse and disagreement are NOT the same thing.

There are MANY more feminine descriptions of God than masculine. One of the most widely celebrated names of God, "El Shaddai" means nursing mother.

Sorry....No "Nursing Mother" here.

Shaddai and 'Elyon.

The word Shaddai (), which occurs along with El, is also used independently as a name of God,chiefly in the Book of Job. It is commonly rendered "the Almighty" (in LXX., sometimes παντοκράτωρ). The Hebrew root "shadad," from which it has been supposed to be derived, means, however, "to overpower," "to treat with violence," "to lay waste." This would give Shaddai the meaning "devastator," or "destroyer," which can hardly be right. It is possible, however, that the original significance was that of "overmastering" or "overpowering strength," and that this meaning persists in the divine name. Another interesting suggestion is that it may be connected with the Assyrian "shadu" (mountain), an epithet sometimes attached to the names of Assyrian deities. It is conjectured also that the pointing of may be due to an improbable rabbinical explanation of the word as ("He who is sufficient"), and that the word originally may have been without the doubling of the middle letter. According to Ex. vi. 2, 3, this is the name by which God was known to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The name 'Elyon () occurs with El, with Yhwh, with Elohim, and also alone, chiefly in poetic and late passages. According to Philo Byblius (Eusebius, "Præparatio Evangelica," i. 10), the Phenicians used what appears to be the same name for God, 'Eλιον.

[Joe Brummer]

Paul was alive at the death of Jesus. However, he was a pharisee who persecuted the Christians.

Paul's Timeline:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.html


Sorry, All the evidence I have ever seen says that Paul lived many years after the death of Christ. This one site you have found isn't exactly unbaised. Do you have something less biased?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

It's quite apparent to me...Jesus said with his own words....the Holy Spirit would be sent. So I don't have a problem with Jesus teaching through Paul.

[OLD TESTAMENT evidence that Jesus existed before his birth]


[OLD TESTAMENT] Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

[NEW TESTAMENT] John 8:56-58 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

So it's obvious...God/Jesus Christ are the same. So whatever God said in the Old Testament is the same as Jesus saying it.


This is nice, but it isn't what we were discussing, so I am a bit lossed here. I though you were going to show me what Christ had to say about men being effeminte. That was your earlier claim. Now you have moved on to something else but that isn't what we were discussing. Can you show me what Christ said about men being effeminite? What did Christ say?

You have posted a load of quotes from the bible about Christ and the father being one, but that wasn't what I asked you to present. I am sorry you went through all the trouble to put that together, but can you present me with that which you claim you can do?

[NathanATX]

Sorry...it says what it says and means what it means. When you approach a STOP SIGN....do you GO instead. And when your caught....do you tell the judge...."Well....GO is my interpretation...????

The term abuse and disagreement are NOT the same thing.


"It says what it says & means what it means?" Don't be absurd. I highly doubt you are applying levitical law to your life. Your double standard is hypocritical.

Abuse and disagreement certainly are dissimilar. However, fundamentalists often base their abusive, ungodly words & actions on texts that are "disagreed" over and then hypocriticaly twisted to wield against gay people.

Integrity is a good thing. You should try it.

[cjb]

Pat Robertson's word is the word of Jesus Christ. Now wouldn't that be frightening!


Pat Robertson's not on my list of favorite pastors. I have my reasons to believe he's an apostate minister. Jesus Christ never wished death or assassination on anyone.

[cjb]

I Corinthians 2:4-5
5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. NIV

so the debate really is over. there's no need to go through long explanations with word maps and charts, no need to find obscure etymologies. The Bible clearly says that it is pointless to do so.


I'm sorry.....I don't understand.

1. On one hand you agree with what's written. It's an official message from God.

2. On the other hand....With what you don't agree with...."Well...it's got to be man's doing".

It sounds to me...you have a deep love for your vices.

[cjb]

"It says what it says & means what it means?" Don't be absurd. I highly doubt you are applying levitical law to your life. Your double standard is hypocritical.

Jesus vociferously defended the moral code of the Old Testament Law. He abolished some of the Temple Law, and Ceremonial Law, and all of the human decrees laid upon the people by successive generations of the Jewish priesthood. But, Jesus never changed any of the moral law.

[SolInvictus]

Hmm...

Well, cjb, I proved my argument & no arguments to counter?

The Bible you take literally refers to God as both He & She. I'm not trying to be rude, but by accepting a literal interpretation its difficult not to avoid the contradictions. Its a sacred text that combines selected texts (yes, there are many others too), and must be taken in its proper historical, cultural, and spiritual value & meaning.

As with Legion, I truly feel sorry for you. Based on your postings, it suggests someone who is insecure & attacking what he/she does not understand. Having been brought up in a fundamentalist enviornment, I have seen that those who take the teachings to the extreme and most literal tend to have less faith (not more) than that other mainline & other forms of Christian belief. By depending on proving a point that accepts myth/allergory/metaphor/social teachings as completely literal can result in a faith like that of standing on quicksand...eventually the person sinks unless they find a way to get out.

I will praying for you:
Find peace & love in Christ,
Sol

[SolInvictus]

Sorry...it says what it says and means what it means. When you approach a STOP SIGN....do you GO instead. And when your caught....do you tell the judge...."Well....GO is my interpretation...????

The term abuse and disagreement are NOT the same thing.



Sorry....No "Nursing Mother" here.

Shaddai and 'Elyon.

The word Shaddai (), which occurs along with El, is also used independently as a name of God,chiefly in the Book of Job. It is commonly rendered "the Almighty" (in LXX., sometimes παντοκράτωρ). The Hebrew root "shadad," from which it has been supposed to be derived, means, however, "to overpower," "to treat with violence," "to lay waste." This would give Shaddai the meaning "devastator," or "destroyer," which can hardly be right. It is possible, however, that the original significance was that of "overmastering" or "overpowering strength," and that this meaning persists in the divine name. Another interesting suggestion is that it may be connected with the Assyrian "shadu" (mountain), an epithet sometimes attached to the names of Assyrian deities. It is conjectured also that the pointing of may be due to an improbable rabbinical explanation of the word as ("He who is sufficient"), and that the word originally may have been without the doubling of the middle letter. According to Ex. vi. 2, 3, this is the name by which God was known to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The name 'Elyon () occurs with El, with Yhwh, with Elohim, and also alone, chiefly in poetic and late passages. According to Philo Byblius (Eusebius, "Præparatio Evangelica," i. 10), the Phenicians used what appears to be the same name for God, 'Eλιον.

Once again, to correct you cjb:
El is the primary Mesopotamian deity revered in these ancient cultures. El had a son, Baal, a storm god. Sound familiar? Yes, the story of Elijah vs. the priests of Baal is probably a derivative of this story. To furthur elaborate, the story of tree & searpent in the Garden of Eden had mythic ties with the deity Asherah. Likewise, the popular mention of Leviathan is the equivalent of the "evil searpent" Tiamat.

Cross-cultural integration of beliefs is not uncommon. Actually, it occurs frequently, and allows the continued development of mythology, religion, and ideology. This does not disprove God exists. Rather, it is a way to understanding our common humanity and interpretation of the Divine.
For example, American culture has inherited much from Greco-Roman culture through architecture, literature, art, beliefs/religions (see the Mysteries), and concepts of individuality and freedom.

[SolInvictus]

This verse deals with the rejection by the Jews.

The crucifixion is a result of rejection.

How did you reach this conclusion? Isaiah refers to a messiah in two passages: the quoted reference above & verse 7:14. While interpreting the meaning of a messiah is debated, it means literally "the annointed one." In the Bible itself, Cyrus the Great even receives this title for liberating the Jews, and allowing them to worship as before. Historically, it may represent the need for deliverance after a time of suffering, which leads to the idea of a "messianic age" or the Jewish people as the collective force to save themselves. This concept can be found in 19-20th century Middle Eastern & European studies, esp. after WW2.

[keltic63]

I'm sorry.....I don't understand.

1. On one hand you agree with what's written. It's an official message from God.

2. On the other hand....With what you don't agree with...."Well...it's got to be man's doing".

It sounds to me...you have a deep love for your vices.

what have I disagreed with? and what vices are you talking about?

you, on the other hand, have a deep love for your "enticing word's of man's wisdom" . we've not heard about how the spirit speaks to you, works through you, gives you a hearrt and mind to apply your knowledge in a loving, compassionate, Christlike way.

Father, I pray now for cjb, that s/he may come to know you more deeply, that your spirit will come alive to him/her in a way that mere words can never speak. Allow him/her to recognize the spiritual violence that can be done to your children by following such concepts as s/he has presented here. Bless your child, cjb, in the name of Jesus Christ, our Savior, Amen.

[NathanATX]

Jesus vociferously defended the moral code of the Old Testament Law. He abolished some of the Temple Law, and Ceremonial Law, and all of the human decrees laid upon the people by successive generations of the Jewish priesthood. But, Jesus never changed any of the moral law.

I suggest you consider sources outside of the UPC feeding tube.

Not only did Jesus come to abolish the law by establishing love as a higher law, He actually went against the law & traditions over and over again.

He surrounded himself with "unclean" people.

He engaged foreign women in intimate conversation.

He rebuked the pharisees & religious leaders for their hypocrisy and idolatry of the law.

[cjb]

Sorry, All the evidence I have ever seen says that Paul lived many years after the death of Christ. This one site you have found isn't exactly unbaised. Do you have something less biased?

You've presented no evidence....so what makes your story believable....??? You wouldn't by any chance....be a member of the media..."where sources a sacried cow"

Here...let me help you out..

http://webfiles.hypermart.net/googlesearchbar002.gif



This is nice, but it isn't what we were discussing, so I am a bit lossed here. I though you were going to show me what Christ had to say about men being effeminte. That was your earlier claim. Now you have moved on to something else but that isn't what we were discussing. Can you show me what Christ said about men being effeminite? What did Christ say?

You have posted a load of quotes from the bible about Christ and the father being one, but that wasn't what I asked you to present. I am sorry you went through all the trouble to put that together, but can you present me with that which you claim you can do?

Sorry...he stated that the Father would teach by the Holy Spirit....He and the Father are one....that good enough for me...!!!!

[cjb]

Once again, to correct you cjb:
El is the primary Mesopotamian deity revered in these ancient cultures. El had a son, Baal, a storm god. Sound familiar? Yes, the story of Elijah vs. the priests of Baal is probably a derivative of this story. To furthur elaborate, the story of tree & searpent in the Garden of Eden had mythic ties with the deity Asherah. Likewise, the popular mention of Leviathan is the equivalent of the "evil searpent" Tiamat.

Cross-cultural integration of beliefs is not uncommon. Actually, it occurs frequently, and allows the continued development of mythology, religion, and ideology. This does not disprove God exists. Rather, it is a way to understanding our common humanity and interpretation of the Divine.
For example, American culture has inherited much from Greco-Roman culture through architecture, literature, art, beliefs/religions (see the Mysteries), and concepts of individuality and freedom.


So what does that have do with the name "Nursing Mother"..????

[Joe Brummer]

CJB,
You have stopped making sense. What does google and paul have to do with the fact you claimed you could and would provide information (truth) about Jesus' words about effeminite men. You didn't. You are here preaching your version of the Word (untruth) and I am willing to listen. You cannot keep ditching the statements you made and not follwoing through on your own claims about the word.

As foar as I have seen you are jumping around, out of focus. I can appreciate how hard it is to keep track of many conversations at once. Just take each post one at a time and reply to the words.

For me, you have claimed you could show me that Jeusus spoke out against effeminte men. I hold that is untrue, and a form a spiritual violence against gays and lesbians, as well as those men who are heterosexual who may be a bit effeminite. I know a few and they are my friends.

Please come though with your claim to show me Christ's word's or admit you are preaching Untruth's to further your own fears and prejudice.


Hugs!

Joe

[cjb]

Not only did Jesus come to abolish the law by establishing love as a higher law, He actually went against the law & traditions over and over again.

Mt 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He surrounded himself with "unclean" people.

Lu*15:2
And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

Yes that's true....but there was a reason.

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


He engaged foreign women in intimate conversation.

:confused: What is you definition of intimate.

But yes he did have conversation with both and women. That's how he taught.

He rebuked the pharisees & religious leaders for their hypocrisy and idolatry of the law.

He rebuked the Pharisees for not knowing who he was.

M't:12:22: Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
M't:12:23: And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
M't:12:24: But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
M't:12:25: And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
M't:12:26: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
M't:12:27: And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
M't:12:28: But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
M't:12:29: Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
M't:12:30: He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
M't:12:31: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
M't:12:32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
M't:12:33: Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
M't:12:34: O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
M't:12:35: A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
M't:12:36: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
M't:12:37: For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

[Joe Brummer]

No offensive but you proved the argument you were trying to refute with this verse.

Nathan said to you:
He rebuked the pharisees & religious leaders for their hypocrisy and idolatry of the law.

You replied with:
M't:12:36: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

You only pointed out his was right.

[SolInvictus]

It doesn't directly, but El is the basis for the Old Testament god. Anthropological and historical evidence support that the Jews venerated a local tribal deity, whom they believed was the "best god." Keep in mind, in ancient Mesopotamian culture: duels between competing gods/city-states was a normal activity. However, Yahweh later was elevated to "god of gods," and then to a universal deity. El was most likely adapted and merged with the worship of Yahweh due to the many conquests in the area from Babylonians, Assyrians, and Chaldeans (Neo-Babylonians: Babylon & Medea alliance).

It is interesting that you, once again, ignored the other comments. I will keep praying for you, and that you may learn to calm your anger.

In Peace & Christ's Love,
Sol

[NathanATX]

So what does that have do with the name "Nursing Mother"..????

El or YHWH with descriptive
El Shaddai
Shad = female breast
evidence for androgyny of God

English translation: God Almighty

patriarchalization stemming from fear of feminine aspects of God
somtimes explained as 'God of the mountains'
mountains = breasts

The bottom line is that most biblical writers were men. They wrote out of their own culture of patriarchy and subjugation of women. And on top of that the texts were translated years ago while women still were essentially the property of their fathers & husbands. The church has effectively blocked women from an equal participation in forming and leading our holy communities.

I believe God is "gender-less." I believe our faith & our understanding of God can be be wonderfully impacted by realizing that God is more than gender. By acknowledging the divine feminity as well as the divine masculinity of God, we welcome women into an equal & honest journey of faith.

For me this isn't about making God into a Goddess. It's about acknowledging that God is bigger... more masculine and more feminine... than our selfish & chauvinistic concepts.

If praying to Mother God impacts my heart with a new understanding God's compassion... of a mother's compassion... then I welcome & invite that prayer, even though it isn't customary or usual for me.

[NathanATX]

So, in other words, you weren't being honest.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjb

Sure....I can do that. Paul was appointed by Jesus Christ to be his witness. So through the Holy Spririt..... whatever Paul wrote and taught was a direction from Jesus Christ himself.

Either Jesus said it or He didn't.

Please acknowledge your lack of honesty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanATX
Not only did Jesus come to abolish the law by establishing love as a higher law, He actually went against the law & traditions over and over again.


Mt 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:17-20 (the Message)
"Don't suppose for a minute that I have come to demolish the Scriptures--either God's Law or the Prophets. I'm not here to demolish but to complete. I am going to put it all together, pull it all together in a vast panorama. God's Law is more real and lasting than the stars in the sky and the ground at your feet. Long after stars burn out and earth wears out, God's Law will be alive and working.
"Trivialize even the smallest item in God's Law and you will only have trivialized yourself. But take it seriously, show the way for others, and you will find honor in the kingdom. Unless you do far better than the Pharisees in the matters of right living, you won't know the first thing about entering the kingdom.

"Abolish" doesn't seem to communicate my intent. How about He came to complete the law? Or He came to establish a higher law? What do you think He could have possibly meant by "do better than the Pharisees?" I think it has everything to do with "loving your neighbor as you love yourself."


Quote:
He surrounded himself with "unclean" people.

Lu*15:2
And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

Yes that's true....but there was a reason.

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 15:1-7 (the Message)
By this time a lot of men and women of doubtful reputation were hanging around Jesus, listening intently. The Pharisees and religion scholars were not pleased, not at all pleased. They growled, "He takes in sinners and eats meals with them, treating them like old friends." Their grumbling triggered this story.
"Suppose one of you had a hundred sheep and lost one. Wouldn't you leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the lost one until you found it? When found, you can be sure you would put it across your shoulders, rejoicing, and when you got home call in your friends and neighbors, saying, "Celebrate with me! I've found my lost sheep!' Count on it--there's more joy in heaven over one sinner's rescued life than over ninety-nine good people in no need of rescue.

And...

Luke 5:27-32
"After this he went out and saw a man named Levi at his work collecting taxes. Jesus said, "Come along with me." And he did--walked away from everything and went with him.

Levi gave a large dinner at his home for Jesus. Everybody was there, tax men and other disreputable characters as guests at the dinner. The Pharisees and their religion scholars came to his disciples greatly offended. "What is he doing eating and drinking with crooks and "sinners'?"

Jesus heard about it and spoke up, "Who needs a doctor: the healthy or the sick? I'm here inviting outsiders, not insiders--an invitation to a changed life, changed inside and out."

It was clearly against the "moral" code for good Jews to mingle with "sinners." Jesus was a rebel.

He lived his life that way to help people see that even though they might feel lost or separated from God, that God loves them and even while they are in their sin they are still his children. The sheep that wandered away was still a sheep. THAT, my friend is the Good News!


Quote:
He engaged foreign women in intimate conversation.


What is you definition of intimate.

But yes he did have conversation with both and women. That's how he taught.

Jewish law had strict rules about men interacting with women and with Jews interacting with foreigners. Jesus blew all that out of the water by having profound, deep, personal coversations with women like the "woman at the well."


Quote:
He rebuked the pharisees & religious leaders for their hypocrisy and idolatry of the law.

He rebuked the Pharisees for not knowing who he was.

Wrong.

Matthew 23 (the Message)

1Now Jesus turned to address his disciples, along with the crowd that had gathered with them. 2"The religion scholars and Pharisees are competent teachers in God's Law. 3You won't go wrong in following their teachings on Moses. But be careful about following them. They talk a good line, but they don't live it. They don't take it into their hearts and live it out in their behavior. It's all spit-and-polish veneer.
4"Instead of giving you God's Law as food and drink by which you can banquet on God, they package it in bundles of rules, loading you down like pack animals. They seem to take pleasure in watching you stagger under these loads, and wouldn't think of lifting a finger to help. 5Their lives are perpetual fashion shows, embroidered prayer shawls one day and flowery prayers the next. 6They love to sit at the head table at church dinners, basking in the most prominent positions, 7preening in the radiance of public flattery, receiving honorary degrees, and getting called "Doctor' and "Reverend.'
8"Don't let people do that to you, put you on a pedestal like that. You all have a single Teacher, and you are all classmates. 9Don't set people up as experts over your life, letting them tell you what to do. Save that authority for God; let him tell you what to do. No one else should carry the title of "Father'; you have only one Father, and he's in heaven. 10And don't let people maneuver you into taking charge of them. There is only one Life-Leader for you and them--Christ.

11"Do you want to stand out? Then step down. Be a servant. 12If you puff yourself up, you'll get the wind knocked out of you. But if you're content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.

Frauds!
13"I've had it with you! You're hopeless, you religion scholars, you Pharisees! Frauds! Your lives are roadblocks to God's kingdom. You refuse to enter, and won't let anyone else in either.
15"You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You go halfway around the world to make a convert, but once you get him you make him into a replica of yourselves, double-damned.

16"You're hopeless! What arrogant stupidity! You say, "If someone makes a promise with his fingers crossed, that's nothing; but if he swears with his hand on the Bible, that's serious.' 17What ignorance! Does the leather on the Bible carry more weight than the skin on your hands? 18And what about this piece of trivia: "If you shake hands on a promise, that's nothing; but if you raise your hand that God is your witness, that's serious'? 19What ridiculous hairsplitting! What difference does it make whether you shake hands or raise hands? 20-22A promise is a promise. What difference does it make if you make your promise inside or outside a house of worship? A promise is a promise. God is present, watching and holding you to account regardless.

23"You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You keep meticulous account books, tithing on every nickel and dime you get, but on the meat of God's Law, things like fairness and compassion and commitment--the absolute basics!-you carelessly take it or leave it. Careful bookkeeping is commendable, but the basics are required. 24Do you have any idea how silly you look, writing a life story that's wrong from start to finish, nitpicking over commas and semicolons?

25"You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You burnish the surface of your cups and bowls so they sparkle in the sun, while the insides are maggoty with your greed and gluttony. 26Stupid Pharisee! Scour the insides, and then the gleaming surface will mean something.

27"You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You're like manicured grave plots, grass clipped and the flowers bright, but six feet down it's all rotting bones and worm-eaten flesh. 28People look at you and think you're saints, but beneath the skin you're total frauds.

29"You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You build granite tombs for your prophets and marble monuments for your saints. 30And you say that if you had lived in the days of your ancestors, no blood would have been on your hands. 31You protest too much! You're cut from the same cloth as those murderers, 32and daily add to the death count.

33"Snakes! Reptilian sneaks! Do you think you can worm your way out of this? Never have to pay the piper? 34It's on account of people like you that I send prophets and wise guides and scholars generation after generation--and generation after generation you treat them like dirt, greeting them with lynch mobs, hounding them with abuse.

35"You can't squirm out of this: Every drop of righteous blood ever spilled on this earth, beginning with the blood of that good man Abel right down to the blood of Zechariah, Barachiah's son, whom you murdered at his prayers, is on your head. 36All this, I'm telling you, is coming down on you, on your generation.

37"Jerusalem! Jerusalem! Murderer of prophets! Killer of the ones who brought you God's news! How often I've ached to embrace your children, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you wouldn't let me. 38And now you're so desolate, nothing but a ghost town. 39What is there left to say? Only this: I'm out of here soon. The next time you see me you'll say, "Oh, God has blessed him! He's come, bringing God's rule!'"

[cjb]

CJB,
You have stopped making sense. What does google and paul have to do with the fact you claimed you could and would provide information (truth) about Jesus' words about effeminite men.

Paul and Google have nothing to do with effeminate men.

But....it has everything do with you locating and submitting the evidence that Paul lived 100 after Jesus Christ. That is your claim....right.



Please come though with your claim to show me Christ's word's or admit you are preaching Untruth's

1. Truth - Joh*10:30 - I and my Father are one.

2. Truth - Joh*14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Joh*16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

3.Truth - Acts 9:4-5 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

4. Truth - Acts 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

5. Truth - 1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Again...it sounds to me that God/Jesus Christ said that through the Holy Spirit he would teach and Paul was a chosen vessel.

Surely a God who created the universe, became a God in flesh, died, rose again, and the ascended to Heaven....can teach man anytime he so chooses.

Come on...where's your faith...:)


to further your own fears and prejudice.


And what fear's that...:confused:

[Joe Brummer]

Clearly, you are dodging the real debate you started and you are not being honest as you go. I am done.

If you change your mind, and want to have an honest discussion about the truth. I am here for you. I will not indulge you in this run around. SImple as that.

I have asked you show me something you said you could show me, I am perfectly willing to listen and understand you. I have not see those qualities in you. I am done.

[SolInvictus]

Cjb,
I'm agreeing & supporting Joe on this topic:
when confronted with evidence that doesn't support your view, you run away & hide. You tell us to come & provide you evidence: we do & you do not respond. Obviously, this debate is over: you didn't win.

Hope you find peace of mind, love, peace, and understanding one day.

[Joe Brummer]

I will add for the sake of adding it, that I don't think it is about winning or losing. It is about understanding. I wish we could come to one.

[SolInvictus]

Google is a search engine for information, cjb, but not the definitive source.
I have degrees and relavent texts available on hand by religious & academic specialists. These are far more valuable resources, which cite primary & secondary sources. In some cases, I have copies of the primary sources on-hand.

Anyway, when you are ready to be honest, and respond w/ reason - then, like Joe said, a real debate may continue.

[SolInvictus]

I will add for the sake of adding it, that I don't think it is about winning or losing. It is about understanding. I wish we could come to one.

Good point & I agree, Joe. We didn't reach an understanding, which is unfortunant, thank you for your wisdom.

[Joe Brummer]

Good point & I agree, Joe. We didn't reach an understanding, which is unfortunant, thank you for your wisdom.
but please remember that we are not shunning anyone away, I want CJB to post here, and continue to be part of our community. We just need to lay things on the table and talk about them. So, can we find a middle ground? I bet we can! I know and believe we can!

[SolInvictus]

Agreed & I believe we can too.