Can a Homophobe, be a Homo?

[tpdncr4christ]

I'm sure most everyone here remembers a time when they were in the closet. It wasn't fun, for any of us. I was a completley perfect conservative christian, who never did anything wrong. I preached what my parents said, never thinking for myself. In fact, whenever news of gay rights came on the tv I would always verbally discredit the news, and say some harsh remark about the people it concerned. I would make a point to avoid any contact with a gay man. I've talked to other kids, and this seems to be the patern: while in the closet homosexuals act homophobic. Does anyone agree/disagree with this? And if you agree... why do we act like that? And is it possible for some homophobic people to be, in fact, suppresed homosexuals? ...

[Zerbie]

Austin. Nail. Head. :agree:

Yep. Quite possibly all of us have done or thought like that, a little or a lot. Gay people can be VERY homophobic. :( :'(

Some of the most vicious things I've ever heard said about gay people came from other gay folk who were not willing to accept their own sexuality. If you're scared of being labeled and stigmatized, or worse, you do some odd things in the name of self-protection. :(

:lol: I think this may be the very first time in my life I'm starting a sentence this way - a rite of passage for the Zerbster - but here goes: Austin, *when I was your age* I was very homophobic, but only towards lesbians. I had numerous gay male mentor/teachers and some close friends who were gay boys my age and I knew it. But when it came to anything suggestive of lesbianism - :eek: I did everything I could to distance myself from ever being perceived as attracted to women. Back then I dated every guy who asked me out, so no one would think I might be lesbian. :rolleyes: If I had not been so distraught with anxiety about my feelings towards women, I believe I would have recognized and accepted my actual orientation (which is bisexual) years sooner than I did instead of floundering through a drawn-out and overly complicated multi-year "coming out" process. But that's another story.

In short, yes, gay folk can be extremely homophobic. Imo, getting over that is the one battle that really counts.

[scott snedeker]

"There must be a bitter breeze that makes you sting so viciously

They say the greatest coward can hurt the most ferociously"

----Annie Lennox: The Miracle of Love

I suspect that the most homophobic people are sadly self-hating homosexuals. The next phrase is however.

"But I'll show something good.

Yes I'll show something good.

When you open your heart you'll discover the start

When your crumbling world falls apart.....

The miracle of Love...

Will take away your pain"

My brother is completely straight. Wife and 2 kids. Gay folks are just like any other to him. He never had any uncomfortable feelings to overcome!

Love and affirmation,

Scotty:cowboy:

[novaseeker]

I've talked to other kids, and this seems to be the patern: while in the closet homosexuals act homophobic. Does anyone agree/disagree with this? And if you agree... why do we act like that? And is it possible for some homophobic people to be, in fact, suppresed homosexuals? ...

Yes, it is common enough for gay people who are in denial about themselves or uncomfortable about themselves and closeted to be rather vocally anti-gay.

I think the reasons are: (1) internalized homophobia (an overused term, but nevertheless an accurate one to describe the situation of receiving all of the negative messages from the outside world about gay people, internalizing them as your own beliefs, and directing them against yourself and others) and (2) smoke screen actions taken by those who are insecure about or uncomfortable with their own sexuality and which are "designed" (if only subconsciously) to convince self and others than one is not, in fact, gay ... ie, as "evidence" for yourself and others that you are not gay. Some religious folk who are in this situation may have the added idea of thinking themselves as being uniquely positioned to criticize the "LGBT lifestyle", given their own orientation issues, and may see it as a way of taking their struggle to God in a way acceptable to God ... I don't mean the ex-gays, but people who are, in a way, "pre-ex-gay".

When I was younger and in denial, I also engaged in some of these behaviors and ideas. I think it is fairly commonplace. It's become almost a cliche to assume that someone who is vociferously criticizing LGBT people to be, themselves, an LGBT person in denial ... which of course goes way too far (there are many straight people who are critics of LGBT as well!), but in any case does indicate how many people think this is a common phenomenon.

[BruceChris]

That most of us have known for some time.

There was a very important study done a few years ago, that showed just that. (Now I wish I had a link to put in right here, I'll try to find it)

The researchers started with a group of men who said that they were straight. They then performed two tests, showing each subject homoerotic, and at another time, heteroerotic materials. What most people call porn. The subjects were hooked up to a penile erectometer, to measure their responses during the tests.

They were then given a written test for homophobia. Of the "straight" subjects, those who responded most strongly to the male erotica were the most homophobic. There was pretty much a direct correlation.

The equation that I get from this is this: A person's level of homophobia is directly proportional to the level of homophobia that they were raised with, multiplied by their personal level of gay sex drive.

Individuals who put on the biggest display of condemning homosexuality are usually men, probably because our society usually condemns gay men more than gay women (Unless you are in the military, or in sports). Such individuals are sometimes referred to as Raging Closet Queens. I'll see if I can find some links.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Daniel]

Several thoughts come to mind here.

Watching Tony Kushner's Angels In America on stage (the movie came later) and seeing just what a self-hating man-loving-guy Roy Cohn was. Yes- it was fiction, but then, what Art!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn

Rumors of Cohn's homosexuality began to spread throughout Washington shortly after Joseph McCarthy appointed him chief counsel to McCarthy's subcommittee. When he brought on the wealthy and handsome G. David Schine as chief consultant, it became widely speculated that Schine and Cohn had a sexual relationship.

Cohn and McCarthy targeted many government officials and cultural figures not only for suspected Communist sympathies but also for alleged homosexual tendencies, sometimes using sexual secrets as a blackmail tool to gain informants. The men whose homosexuality Cohn exposed often lost jobs, families, and homes: some committed suicide. It is said that when Cohn learned that one of his victims had killed himself, Cohn celebrated with a bottle of champagne.

During the Army-McCarthy hearings, in an apparent allusion to rumors of Cohn's homosexuality, the Army's attorney Joseph Welch asked McCarthy whether a photo entered as evidence came from "a pixie ... a close relative of a fairy."

During debates over New York City's first gay rights law, Cohn said homosexuals should not be allowed to be schoolteachers.

In 1984, Cohn was diagnosed with AIDS, and he attempted to keep his condition secret while receiving aggressive drug treatment. He participated in clinical trials of new drugs, but reportedly persuaded the researchers to keep him out of the control group, which received inert substances rather than the experimental drug. He insisted to his dying day that his disease was liver cancer. He died on August 2, 1986, of complications from AIDS at the age of 59. He is buried in Queens, New York.

And Cohn recalls the equally self-hating Edgar Hoover.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Hoover

For decades, there has been speculation and rumors that Hoover was a homosexual, but no concrete evidence of these claims has ever been presented. Such rumors have circulated since at least the early 1940s. It has also been suggested that his long association with Clyde Tolson, an associate director of the FBI who was also Hoover's heir, was that of a gay couple. The two men were almost constantly together, working, vacationing, and having lunch and dinner together almost every weekday. Some authors have dismissed the rumors about Hoover's sexuality and his relationship with Tolson in particular as unlikely, while others have described them as probable or even "confirmed", and still others have reported them without stating an opinion.

In his 1993 biography Official and Confidential: The Secret Life of J Edgar Hoover, Anthony Summers quoted a witness who claimed to have seen Hoover engaging in cross-dressing and homosexual acts on two occasions in the 1950s. Summers also claimed that the Mafia had blackmail material on Hoover, and that as a consequence Hoover had been reluctant to aggressively pursue organized crime.

Both of these guys did some serious damage to other gay persons. Which brings me to the memory of the morning I picked up the paper and read of the now famous study were they hooked up 'straight' guys to meters to measure if they had a reaction to pictures of naked men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_homosexuality

A theory that homophobia is a result of latent homosexuality was put forth in the late 20th century. A 1996 study conducted at the University of Georgia by Henry Adams, Lester Wright Jr., and Bethany Lohr indicates that a number of "homophobic" males exhibit latent homosexuality. The research was done on 64 heterosexual men, 35 of whom exhibited "homophobic" traits and 29 who did not. Three tests were conducted using penile plethysmography. While there was no difference in response when the men were exposed to heterosexual and lesbian pornography, there was a major difference in response when the men were exposed to male homosexual pornography.

The researchers reported that 24% of the non-"homophobic" men showed some degree of tumescence in response to the male homosexual video, compared to 54% of the subjects who scored high on the "homophobia scale". In addition, 66% of the nonhomophobic group showed no significant increases in tumescence after this video, but only 20% of the "homophobic" men failed to display any arousal. Additionally, when the participants rated their degree of sexual arousal later, the "homophobic" men significantly underestimated their degree of arousal by the male homosexual video. Still, researchers disagree about whether the "homophobic" males were stimulated by genuine latent homosexuality or negative emotions such as anxiety.

What stood out to me was that those who had a response underestimated it afterwards.

Sounds like they are living near that river called Denial.

Can gay people be homophobic? You bet! History is replete with such people.

I wasn't particularly anti-gay before I came to my senses. Rather, I just stayed away from anything remotely sexual until my own built-up wall fell over on me at the age of 28. And then the real fun began: I had to sort through all that biblical stuff. If God loved me yada yada yada. It was necessary, but my God, what a journey. Not for the incurious- that's for sure.

The best cure-all for the soul? Not a stack of facts or books, but being in love. That can tell one everything one needs to know. The rest is icing on the cake.

addendum:

BruceChris- I see after posting that we both referenced the same material at the same time.

Great Minds Think Alike!

[Daniel]

[CENTER]:rofl: :rofl: :CENTER]

Ok. I've (mostly) gained control of myself again.

Your title "Is that a banana in your pocket" reminded me of a rather bawdy but truthful statement made to me by a friend who is a therapist: "It takes two sticks to make a fire!"

[pnggrad79]

TP,
I mercilessly pointed a finger at a guy I met in a chatroom about 9 years ago when I was still in the closet. I said the same horrible things to him that Fred Phelps spouts off. I have since repented of it and wish I could talk to this guy and apologize for bashing him like I did. Yes, it is the self hatred, inauthentic, internalized homophobia that I and many others purveyed on innocent homosexuals on the same journey as we were and just as hammered and rejected as we were, but we heaped more on. Thank God for his grace, but I still wish I could talk to this guy and tell him how sorry and how wrong I was back then. :'(

[Sokrates]

I can actually recognise myself here. Even though some of my homophobic nature might have been put on me from my parents. Since they used to say how being gay and such was so un-natural and un-normal. I think that for some people that also creates an effect, at times I wish my parents where more open minded. Aw well.

Anyhow, I used to beat down on my steph-brother about this stuff. Saying that he was a "fag" and such... I really hate myself cause of that now a days when I think back on it. This topic also reminds me about something I read in a magazine. That usually the one's mostly homophobic where probably gay themselves.

[Daniel]

You probably are aware that the quote "Is that a banana in your pocket or are you just glad to see me" was a famous Mae West line. What made me laugh was the line in your post "What stood out for me is..." when talking about research that measured men's erectile response. It just struck me as funny.

I adore Mae West. And that other quote of hers (my...we're getting off topic here!) "If I asked for a cup of coffee, someone would search for the double meaning." Of course, she was also famous for saying: "When I'm good, I'm very good. But when I'm bad I'm better." And of course: "Too much of a good thing can be wonderful."

[Zerbie]

TP,
I mercilessly pointed a finger at a guy I met in a chatroom about 9 years ago when I was still in the closet. I said the same horrible things to him that Fred Phelps spouts off. I have since repented of it and wish I could talk to this guy and apologize for bashing him like I did. Yes, it is the self hatred, inauthentic, internalized homophobia that I and many others purveyed on innocent homosexuals on the same journey as we were and just as hammered and rejected as we were, but we heaped more on. Thank God for his grace, but I still wish I could talk to this guy and tell him how sorry and how wrong I was back then. :'(

Oh goodness PNG, I can sort of imagine how you might feel remembering that. :'( But you were acting out of confusion and pain, and I hope you have forgiven yourself for what you did without understanding. :pray:

I said some terrible things like that once. When I was a little girl I vowed I would never say those kinds of things to anyone - but out of terrible terror I did, once. To the girl I was in love with, and ran out on her. To this day I regret it and horribly. :'(

At the time I convinced myself I was being "moral" and "strong." I had no idea it was actually my weakest moment - I felt so tough, shutting my heart down by sheer force. Guess it didn't help that my PhD psychologist had been putting me up to it for weeks, telling me I needed to be "the strong one" and turn us away from the mental illness of homosexuality. :mad: I was 20 and I figured the psych. was an expert, so I finally did it.

[tpdncr4christ]

Now, this bulletin had a purpose:

Doctor James Dobson. Considerably one of the harshest vocal homophobes alive on the planet.

The worst homophobes are usually gay.

Please explain the difference here.:confused:

[andrewlittle]

Now, this bulletin had a purpose:

Doctor James Dobson. Considerably one of the harshest vocal homophobes alive on the planet.

The worst homophobes are usually gay.

Please explain the difference here.:confused:

In another post, which I couldn't quickly find, I suggested that homophobia is the mental/emotional disorder which is need of therapy. I still stick by that opinion - one that is certainly not limited to myself.

There are probably many ways of developing homophobia and acting out against GLBTQ. Mine was the result of shame, instilled by my father, because I was different and a little effeminate.
See:
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=15153&postcount=30

So, are some of the worst critics of GLBTQ self-hating gays or lesbians? A quick look at the last few weeks' news tells us that is true.

Is every homophobic critic latent gay or lesbian? That may too much of a generalization.

Is every extreme critic, Dobson especially, suffering from a mental illness - let's call it what it is, Paranoid Homophobia - bet your ass, tapdancer.

But as to the question, "Why?" Hmmm. Do you really want to crawl around in that nutjobs head to figure that out? I don't. I vote for a labotomy and a rubber room - all the while showing loving pity for poor delusional SOB.

[scott snedeker]

In another post, which I couldn't quickly find, I suggested that homophobia is the mental/emotional disorder which is need of therapy. .......

Is every homophobic critic latent gay or lesbian? That may too much of a generalization.

Is every extreme critic, Dobson especially, suffering from a mental illness - let's call it what it is, Paranoid Homophobia - bet your ass, tapdancer.

But as to the question, "Why?" Hmmm. Do you really want to crawl around in that nutjobs head to figure that out? I don't. I vote for a labotomy and a rubber room - all the while showing loving pity for poor delusional SOB.

As usual I love your way of thinking. In clinical terms "paranoid homophobia" is possibly an entity yet to be officially recognized.

Strictly speaking paranoia is a psychosis. A paranoid Psychosis is a false belief caused by a chemical or structural abnormality of the brain.

Schizophrenics have this causing disordered thinking. So they may have paranoid or violent ideas but not enough focus to act on them.

Bipolar patients in manic phase also have psychotic episodes with paranoid delusions and hallucinations but often act out their violent ideas.

What's worse is they are usually functional, charismatic, energetic, super human, when on the way to manic phase. Many politicians, religious leaders and dictators are bipolar patients who stay primarily in hypomania or mania with an entourage that protects them from harming themselves.

One of these individuals who is homophobic could indeed be clinically labelled with "paranoid homophobia" particularly if the individual believed for instance that gay people were projecting thoughts into his brain or tainting food so as to create gay children.

Tell this to a physician in Florida for instance and the doc can involuntarily commit him to a 52 hour observation in a psychiatric institution to administer the appropriate antipsychotic to stop the delusion.


Tempting!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[belladonnacordial]

I still wish I could talk to this guy and tell him how sorry and how wrong I was back then.

PNGGrad,

I'm certain he would forgive you. In his place, any one of us who have been on the receiving end of online bashing will forgive you in his place. In fact, I forgive you. There!

I'm sure he went through a similar situation before he came out- where he was the homophobic person saying the terrible things. Just try to keep in mind, that the next poor lost soul bashing you online will be just like you one day. Hey, you could interrupt his rant to tell him that you forgive him so he won't worry years later as you are now! Maybe that will work if you still feel some sort of reparation is in order.

If you think about it, words from strangers who are acting out their own dramas online can only cause a bit of hurt anyway, like a emotional bump of the elbow. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he didn't even remember the incident. The most important thing is: you have learned from your mistake! Now, it's time to forgive yourself for it.

[nervezapper]

Yep, that's was me too.

Over the past year the veneer has been slowly stripped away and I am striving to live authentically. I've always wondered/known that I was attracted to women, but since it was "evil" (I grew up fundamental Baptist) I became anti-gay.

[Pablo Rafael]

Nervezapper,

I have neglected to say hello yet, so make this a belated welcome.

I am right with you (and others.) I was one who was very anti-gay. I thought Anita Bryant was a great crusader for God. (Oops, showing my age here.) :rolleyes: Being a closeted gay I was so afraid that I would be found out if I didn't take a strong stand against homosexuality. I wish I could have come to the realization that God loves us all, gay and straight alike, earlier in life.

I always wonder if the most bigoted, anti-gay crusaders are gay themselves.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[BrentRichards]

Nervezapper,

I have neglected to say hello yet, so make this a belated welcome.

I am right with you (and others.) I was one who was very anti-gay. I thought Anita Bryant was a great crusader for God. (Oops, showing my age here.) :rolleyes: Being a closeted gay I was so afraid that I would be found out if I didn't take a strong stand against homosexuality. I wish I could have come to the realization that God loves us all, gay and straight alike, earlier in life.

I always wonder if the most bigoted, anti-gay crusaders are gay themselves.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

"Well, at least it was a fruit pie." ... Right there with you showing my age, Pablo.

And yes, I also know from experience that homophobes can be gay and vice versa ... when I finally came out, I contacted the woman who taught my Resident Assistant training class in college ... a wonderful lesbian woman who "knew me when" I was the outspoken anti-gay in a class full of "liberals." When I told her I was finally out, she said she cried most of the afternoon! First "that you had to hurt for so long" and second "that you're finally here."

[gman620]

Hey tpdncrforchrist, I've got news for you. I was VICIOUSLY homophobic before I realized my sexual orientation. And oddly enough, my parents never were overtly homophobic. In fact my Dad was quite supportive when I came out (and still is).

[tpdncr4christ]

Hey tpdncrforchrist, I've got news for you. I was VICIOUSLY homophobic before I realized my sexual orientation. And oddly enough, my parents never were overtly homophobic. In fact my Dad was quite supportive when I came out (and still is).

Isn't that weird? It seems like homophobia is concentrated mostly in mainstream closet cases. If we can make it ok for them to come out, then we'd have a much easier job ahead of us.

[ladyinred]

Homophobia I would probably call a mental disorder or a neurosis of the mind. Not to be judgmental here, but society is very paranoid of gay and lesbians and probably any hint of same sex attraction in themselves. The fact that they have to go out of their way to prove they are not gay should say something. But the fact of the matter is I think society is neurotic and it spreads through the whole population as a pervasive disease and we all get infected by it..

[ladyinred]

Growing up I had two friends in high school one friend who was straight ( I was struggling with questions about my own sexuality and even tormented by the idea I might be a lesbian, at the time,I actually became depressed and almost suicidal,anything but that GOD!!!!! it was painful) But was weird is I was actually going through an obsessional period where I would literally try not to think anything sexual about girls) My straight friend who was a guy revealed the secret about my other friend , he told me he was gay and how I felt about that,I said it's ok, doesn't bother me. (Later thinking down the line maybe I shouldn't had done that) But anyway we became good friends and quite a few adventures together. It never bothered me about him, but why me?Self hatred is pernicious, I think I even struggle to this day with self esteem issues, but I've come to realize that self hatred is actually violence toward ourselves.
I finally settled down with a man convinced gay people could never lead happy lives. I accepted my fate.Alot of pain in that relationship, very isolating, everything started boiling up to the surface ,fantasies about women in my dreams when I was asleep and then BOOM the feelings of attraction were coming out and they were uncontrollable. I thought I was nuts and crazy and there was quite a bit of shame and horror to that. (I'm weird in other words I felt like a freak side show )Now it doesn't even shock me what other people go through. Sometimes it is hard to figure out how to live in a society that dehumanizes people . I think most of my life I lived very guarded, feelings in check but when it came to that I felt I was losing control and I wanted control to stop it.

[ladyinred]

Of course it's bad enough when we hide from ourselves and deal with all this sh-t and turmoil, but it's bad when you are going through it and don't feel like there is anyone to talk to. You feel extremely alienated,you aren't like other people, you are crazy, different. Nobody could be this way. Even as I walked through this and became aware of things in my own mind there was still this idea that homosexuality is shameful. I did not come from a religious family, my mother never indicated that to me.. That's why I don't get it.I've kept too many things in for a long time, too many secrets to bear,it got old and pretty damned lonely.Even growing up I detested dolls ,Barbie was like yuk!! I liked GI Joe better. My mother was always trying to force me into the little lady role.When I was little made me wear dresses and I hated it.I wanted my cowboy hat!!!Plus I let my brother cut up my Miss Beasley doll which I hated.(I actually handed it to him gladly , he wanted to cut her open to see what the voice box was like)I wanted to go fishing ,play the guitar.MOM would always say guy stuff. What the heck is "guy stuff"? She never did succeed in molding me though.