Will I and other gay Jews go to Heavan?

[superhippy7890]

I am not goin to convert or anything. I just want your guys opinion! So what do you all think?

[andrewlittle]

Before I get to the subject, let me just tell you that I like your name, superhippy. Am I right in assuming that the rest of the name refers to a birthdate? So that would make you like almost a grandchild of the original hippy generation. Cool.

Just as I think questioning whether gays can be Christians is off kilter, I think your question is as well.

Being gay, in my opinion, neither decreases nor increases your prospects of going to heaven. Being Jewish, however, might. But only because I thought that Judaism, while believing in an afterlife, did not so much view it as a time/place like "heaven". That may vary widely, however.

Anyway, if you hold the concept of "heaven" as the anticipated afterlife, you have no less chance of getting there than, let's say, a Christian.

God cut a covenant with the Jews through Abram and Sarai. Even the "new covenant" that Christians believe followed that one cannot negate the original covenant, unless you believe God's promises to fulfil the covenant are empty. I doubt you think that.

So, my gay Jewish friend, I see no blockages whatsoever for your passage into the ethereal realm of our creator. I only pray that I'll actually manage to meet you there.

[andrewlittle]

Andrew will be there after a few thousand years in pergatory, but he'll get there :lol:

I interupt this perfectly good thread for a message from purgatory.

Up to this point, davidcom (if that is indeed your real name), I have completely overlooked the obvious right in front of my face.

You're milk toast, as well - you...you...insipid amateur sinner, you.

Now, back to your regularly programmed discourse.

See you both in heaven - sometime.

[keltic63]

I interupt this perfectly good thread for a message from purgatory.

Up to this point, davidcom (if that is indeed your real name), I have completely overlooked the obvious right in front of my face.

You're milk toast, as well - you...you...insipid amateur sinner, you.

Now, back to your regularly programmed discourse.

See you both in heaven - sometime.


Perhaps Daniel and I can reach up and pull you down to our level!

[andrewlittle]

The company here in purgatory lacks a little - oh, I don't know - color, excitement, je ne se qua. Perhaps you can pull us both down - we can get davidcom drunk and do nasty things to him.

Oops - I see a faint little image of heaven just kind of drifting away.

[superhippy7890]

In Judaism we have a concept of hellish like place called Sheol. You only stay there for a few months though.

[Emproph]

Personally I don’t believe in an eternal hell, but then I’m just a human being with a flawed sense of justice. I’m sure if I were an All Powerful God of Infinite Love I would see the wisdom in creating eternal punishment – especially with regard to the finite and temporary disobedience of the children I adore.

Though as far as damnations go, your Sheol place sounds relatively nice.

[Daniel]

I don't know about heaven, but I like what Jean Paul Satre said about the other place;

"Hell is other people!"

And now that I'm on the lower level with Steve, I can see why that is true- he's a hell of a guy.

Actually- if one gives into one's Universalist tendencies (which I confess to have), I believe we're all going to that bright and shining place, whoever lays claim to it.

[erubre]

You will go to heaven without a doubt. Actually everyone else will go to heaven also. God is in everyone and humankind and God go on forever.

[zimnah]

It's pretty convenient for us to have Sheol rather than Hell proper, I guess, but I sincerely doubt we will end up in Sheol. Remember, the prohibition in the Talmud and in the Torah has nothing to do with having sex with a member of the same sex. It is specific to men, and has to do with wasting your seed. So go to a sperm bank, make a few donations, and you should be covered. Just love honestly, keep the Sabbath, and sh'mor hadath.
You posted earlier that you wish to become a rabbi...will you study in the Reconstructionist movement? They seem to be the most open to gay relationships. I recently received an email from JTS (Conservative) with a link for a survey...I'll post it here for you.

https://www.smcresearch.org/programs/Survey.asp?nSurvey=82&SurveyeeID=51392

Perhaps the Conservatives will finally get off the fence on this one! (Okay, well, one can hope, y'know! LOL)

My husband will tell you that the one form of purgatory that we Jews have would be the rabbinate...or, from this cantor's point of view, simply the pulpit! :lol:

Well, Shabbat Shalom!!
--Dawn :love:

[Pablo Rafael]

Brian,

My belief is that we are saved by the Grace of God. As a Christian I believe that God's love is shown to us through Jesus, the Messiah. I am glad that I do not have to decide who gets to heaven. I leave that up to God who wants all people to be saved. But of this I am fairly certain: There will be gays in heaven. There will be Jews in heaven. God grace is more powerful and more wonderful than human comprehension.

And to all you guys who are joking around about purgatory etc. Shame on you! Shouldn't people our age be more dignified? :mad:

Oh, by the way, Andrew and Dave, since according to Dante's test, it seems I will be in purgatory too, should I bring my Monopoly game along? That should keep us occupied for a few hundred thousand years or so. And I don't know about Steve and Daniel tring to bring us down to the lower levels. It looks like more fun down there, but do we really want to associate with those guys?

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Pacific]

I don't think there is something like heaven. I believe in alchemy (the process of deification at the End of Time through the God within). So no sin exists for me, and no fall (those are just tricks to control people).

This might be of help to you. It is taken from the the Otto Reich article (on the Forbidden Letters). Those Letters are discussed in the thread 'on homosexuality and resurrection.

30.

"And the enemies of the Holy Spirit hate the cross - how are they called?
There are many levels of this type of hatred, but the most well known person
is Dracula.

Who is Dracula? A vampire - a type of psychological defect, a lustful
defect, which is related with homosexuality. A male vampire is a homosexual,
and a female vampire is a lesbian, in the physical world. They hate the
cross, because the cross is the crossing of the masculine force with the
feminine force in the sexual act. The phallus united with the uterus makes
the cross. This is why male and female vampires hate the cross.

Those vampires are the egos of lust of homosexuals and lesbians. So there
are as many male and female vampires as homosexuals and lesbians in the
world - those egos that like to suck the energy of those that are
normal.(...)

That's why it is stupid (...) to say that Jesus also accepts homosexuals and
gives them eternal life, to say that they will be saved. Homosexuals and
lesbians are rotten seeds, spiritually speaking. Why? Because they do not
germinate, not even physically."
[The Website Administrator of Gnostic Teachings at
http://www.gnosticteachings.org/courses/kabbalah-1-the-world-of-klipoth/klipoth-7-saturn.html ]


31.

"Likewise, Samael Aun Weor calls homosexuals "rotten seeds" in his work Yes
there is Hell, a Devil, and Karma because unlike heterosexuals they do not
have the ability to fecundate the Solar Bodies." [Wikipedia]

32.

"There is so much heterosexual chauvinism around, you could build a parallel
universe with it. Even a straight fuck is considered divine now by the New
Agers."
[Forum]


33.

"However, I have a doubt. The manner in which homosexuality has been
eulogised and made a precondition for Alchemy, it appears that these
Forbidden Letters are a handiwork of a frustrated homosexual who wants
everybody to be one like him."
[Forum]


34.

"And homosexuality doesn't automatically provide the perfect balance of the
microcosmic male and female (so gay's aren't better people, because our man
is gay)(...)." [The Paris 4 in FL3]


35.

"The erotic minorities aren't simply expressing paranoia when they complain
that their myths have been ignored at best, and misappropriated at worst by
straight, patriarchal society. The dispossession of gay and bisexual
archetypes has been going on for a long, long time and shows no signs of
cessation. Since Frazer, mythologists have focused their attention upon
strictly Osirian deities, markedly heterosexual and procreative, while the
New Aeon's pansexual Gods have received scant attention. Open any book on
classical mythology and you will see how the homosexual or bisexual
component of male deities has been swept aside or glossed over,
necessitating a habit of reading between the lines." [J.Martin]


36.

"James M. Saslow discusses the psychological relationship between alchemy
and homosexuality(...)." [L. Schneider]


37.

"Nowhere else, besides in Mathers' conception, does Horus represent a
"defending force", except inasmuch as he fulfills the greater role of King
of the Living World. Even in his "Horus the Younger" warrior form, as the
adversary of his uncle/brother Set, he is a contending force, not a
defending one. There's also a considerable amount of homosexual imagery
contained in the mythological cycle of "The Contendings of Horus and Set",
when modern scholarship is applied to the translations. There is a
homosexual relationship of dominance/submission between these "adversaries"
that is rarely examined or even mentioned outside of the world of academic
Egyptology. Suffice to say that in this relationship lie deeper mysteries.
(Since Egypt is primarily Muslim today, and Islam condemns all
homosexuality, it's not surprising that a tourism website avoids any mention
of it. But it is there, if one does competent research.)"

[Frater C. at http://www.osogd.org/library/biscuits/blogResponse1.html]
[See also the Forbidden Letters part 2, paragraph 7]


38.

"The Paris 4 are all heterosexual too. And quite enjoying their mission at
the same time. That might just mean not all is lost when you're
heterosexual. That only certain homosexuals, like that gay man, are perhaps
capable of fetching the Gold of Immortality, but that it is fetched at the
same time for the benefit of all, as the CE2 say. And isn't the Alchemist in
the end a Christ? And isn't a Christ a saviour? In other words: I feel quite
relaxed about all this." [Forum-PM to me]

39.

"It is abundantly clear that two persons of the same gender cannot create
life - they cannot have children. Therefore, they also cannot be born again,
because they do not bring the necessary polarities together upon which the
forces of creation depend." [Gnostic Forum]

40.

"Homosexuals cannot develop spirituality. It is very difficult. Their whole
pattern of energy movement is disturbed. The whole mechanism is shocked,
perverted." [ Osho at http://www.otantra.net/oTantra/VBTv2/chapter28.html ]

41.

"The homosexual elitism of many early Gnostic cults has been ignored by
modern scholars." http://pages.zoom.co.uk/thuban/html/homognosis.htm

42.

"The role of sacred homosexuality was lost."
[ http://pages.zoom.co.uk/thuban/html/homognosis.htm ]

http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/forbidden_letters_12.htm

Best wishes,
Pacific.

[nmwolfboy]

And to all you guys who are joking around about purgatory etc. Shame on you! Shouldn't people our age be more dignified? :mad:



Dignified? Egads, man! If i were dignified, don't you think i'd have been spared placement in the 2nd level of the Inferno? :D :D :D

-scott

[andrewlittle]

And to all you guys who are joking around about purgatory etc. Shame on you! Shouldn't people our age be more dignified? :mad:

Oh, by the way, Andrew and Dave, since according to Dante's test, it seems I will be in purgatory too, should I bring my Monopoly game along? That should keep us occupied for a few hundred thousand years or so. And I don't know about Steve and Daniel tring to bring us down to the lower levels. It looks like more fun down there, but do we really want to associate with those guys?

Pablo! Pablo! Pablo! People our age, men at least, are starting to have to stand five minutes to take a leak, have more hair on our ears and butts than on our head, wax on fondly about sex we had twenty years ago because short term memory is on a hike somewhere in East Overshoe, and think a Buick is a sweet machine. Tell me anything about that that is dignified and I'll eat your Depends.

As to Monopoly, I'd rather stick hot pokers in my eyes. Sounds perfect for purgatory. Thanks for the suggestion. Maybe we could bring along a game of Scrabble, as well - one with all the vowels taken out and 50 "Q's" added.

And, will you listen to yourself, Pablo. You'd rather be with David (if that is in fact his real name) than Steve and Daniel. Pullease! Now me, yeah, I can understand you wanting to spend a f--king eternity in purgatory with me. Milk toast anyone? Perhaps a White Zinfandel? Really Pablo, have some pride.

[zimnah]

Bravo!!! Bravo!!! Hear, hear!:D :D

[Pablo Rafael]

Andrew,

OK, I'll go along with you. (Sorry Dave (your real name), you have to give me a break. I'm easily influenced by peer pressure! I certainly want to be in the COOL crowd, Andrew IS the cool crowd, right? ):cool:

Andrew, hanging around with you will certainly take me down to lower levels. In that case let's skip Monopoly, we need something stronger. I will bring along all my old slides of Uncle Pedro and Aunt Rosa's 50th wedding anniversary instead.

By the way I kind of resent that comment about short term memory loss, Herbert...err William... I mean, Edward... oh, forget it. By the way, did you mention something about somebody's 50th wedding anniversary? Give them my congratulations.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[superhippy7890]

why do these always turn into what level of Hell where going to?

[andrewlittle]

... you asked about heaven.

Well, never mind then.

[Pablo Rafael]

why do these always turn into what level of Hell we're going to?


(Middle-aged school teacher hangs head and slinks penitently out of the room.)

[andrewlittle]

Superhippy,

You give a bunch of middle-aged old f--ts a chance to play and we'll regress to childhood every time.

Speaking only for myself - as an insipid, purgatory dwelling, milk toast sinner - it was kind of fun to exaggerate my own sinful nature to imagine deserving a more vile afterlife of being lashed with whips and chains. Hmmm.

In reality, however, Hell is the thing of dreams and nightmares. Heaven is the place of peace and joy that we ALL deserve. I just hope we get to take our senses of humor with us. Some of these folks are really funny.

Or is that peculiar? I'll get back to you on that.

[tpdncr4christ]

Lets see... I don't know if you'll get into heaven. I am under the impression that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ and accepting Him into your heart. Now, do you have to say "the prayer" that says "Jesus I have sinned forgive me I want to lead a life following you..." not nesiscarily. Christ is in the hearts of millions of people who don't even know it. If you lead a good life for good reasons you lead a life that involves Christ. Its not a matter of you have Chirst so you go to heaven, you don't so you go to hell, its a matter of whether or not you have Christ in your heart. There are many people who say they are Christian, and then leave horrible lives. I don't think they will be rewarded. There are people who aren't Christians, but who lead amazing lives that include Christ, and I think they will be rewarded. So to answer your question: It depends on whether you live with Christ.

[dewdrop_world]

Slightly bittersweet, these threads.

I recall when I was 20 and just starting to come out of the closet (by today's standards, I would be a late bloomer!). Sometimes I would turn on Pat Robertson's 700 Club and wait for him to say something really derogatory about gay people. (Believe it or not, he wasn't quite completely insane then, which tells you this was awhile ago.)

I didn't understand why I felt compelled to listen to attacks on my emerging identity, but I figured it out some years later. When I was watching, in the back of my mind I was asking myself, "What if he's right? What if I really will go to hell for this?"

It was not pleasant to consider those thoughts, but I'm not sure it was such a bad thing in the end. At that time, I wasn't really aware of that anxiety, but it was in my head and would have been there even if I hadn't been watching. So, "return of the repressed," I sought out a stimulus that was saying something I was afraid of but couldn't name. But, when I became aware of it this way, I could start to look it in the eye, address it and recover from it.

In a way, it might have helped that Pat Robertson was the trigger -- because then I had the association "gays are going to hell" = right-wing crackpot :rofl:

But seriously, despite all the joking around -- or perhaps because of it -- we also need to recognize there's real worry and pain here. Maybe that's why we're fooling around with it so much -- a subconscious attempt to defuse anxiety. Our society plants the seed of homophobia deep, and we might trim off the weed at ground level but the roots are still there.

So yes, we have to laugh, but we should also stop a moment to see if we're crying a little bit too. It isn't wrong to worry about it, but to be unaware of the worry and allow it to fester is probably not the healthiest thing.

Dealing with this fear is a natural and essential part of coming out, I think.

Superhippy, maybe you don't need the (((hug))) but I'm going to give it anyway :love:

James

[revtj]

As an unabashed universalist, I believe the traditional doctrine of hell as a place of eternal punishment is not a biblically consistent teaching and it serves only to distract us from the hells we humans create/tolerate/are complicit with in this life, on this earth-- like the ones created for Jews in Europe 50 - 60 years ago...

That being said, I learned today that the church I am a member of is going to start having all the church committees meet together on the same night once a month.

Yes, hippy, there is a hell, and for me this would be it: endless church committee meetings all blurred together into one. If I'm there, it will definitely be in a casket or an urn of ashes!

Which reminds me, I once saw a Twilight Zone where a man goes to hell and it's a bunch of annoying people in a waiting room. The idea was that hell would be the thing we hated worst in life. Anyone remember that one? I kinda like the humor of that. ;)

[keltic63]

(Middle-aged school teacher hangs head and slinks penitently out of the room.)

are you a middle-AGED school teacher, or just a middle-school teacher? ;) :D ;) :D :lol:

and have you and I discussed any similarities in our lives?

middle-aged, school teacher, music, gay.......put up a pic! do you shave your head too? :eek:

[superhippy7890]

I have no idea what to say. Seriousy! :)

[Pablo Rafael]

are you a middle-AGED school teacher, or just a middle-school teacher? ;) :D ;) :D :lol:

and have you and I discussed any similarities in our lives?

middle-aged, school teacher, music, gay.......put up a pic! do you shave your head too? :eek:


Steve,

I'm a middle-of-the-road type of guy:
middle-aged
middle school (and elementary)
middle of the country
A Republican who generally votes democratic.
Considered a conservative by religious liberals, a liberal by conservatives.
Average musician
(My life is sounding pretty boring. Sigh...)

No shaved head though. (Nothing that radical, of course) About a picture. Have I mentioned my stunning good looks? Well, that all goes out the window when people see a picture. We all have to do our part to keep America beautiful.

Tu Amigo, Pablo


P.S. I'll bet there is one thing that puts me above average. I could be the person who lives at the highest altitude of any of you here. Can anyone beat 8900 feet elevation?

[Zerbie]

Hey Pablo - soon as you mentioned the elevation I wondered if you were in Co, and sure 'nuff, there it was in the upper right corner of your post.

So I take it you weren't affected by that avalanche this past weekend? How are you taking all the snowy weather?

[Pablo Rafael]

I have no idea what to say. Seriousy! :)

Brian,

With all the nonsense and aimless ramblings that we have been posting who would have anything to say? :rolleyes:

You have gotten responses to your original question (amid all the nonsense). There are a wide variety of beliefs represented. What about you. You haven't told us much about what you believe on the issue. What are your views on salvation, resurrection, heaven? If I remember Judaism correctly there are 3 branches; othodox, conservative and reform. Which branch do you subscribe to? What are your core beliefs?

My knowledge of Judaism is limited mainly to Biblical Judaism. What is the modern understanding? From my limited understanding of Judaism it seems that Jews are more accepting and less judgemental than much of Christianity. I don't see the anti-gay sentiment from the Jewish community like that which flows from the conservative end of Christianity.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[superhippy7890]

ok well the modern understanding is that the Bible is an ever growing book to be read in many ways.