Confronting Unethical “Conservatism”

[Emproph]

I wrote this first part after receiving an email from mumsy dearest to the immediate family that really got my goat, but before I could start this thread I ended up responding to the email directly which I is included further down.

This is the emotional set up and was all I was going to post to start this thread, but apparently I need to be angry to pack a punch. It’s a bit long but I think it’s much more dramatic the way it all worked out.
~~

I was at my parent’s house recently and my brother (Mr. NRA-4-EVR) was there too.

He was saying to my mom, disdainfully, how Hillary Clinton was saying that “It’s time stop thinking about the individual and start thinking about the community,” and my mother retorts “Yeah, just like Pelosi.”

I patiently inquired as to what exactly was wrong with that thinking and was told by my mother that it was “communistic,” at which point my head promptly exploded. Upon reassembly I was then treated to the story of Dr. Zhivago and how the Russian government took the property from the rich and gave it to the poor, implying that if we don’t stop these newly empowered “tax and spend” Democrats the same will happen here.

I found out that they support tax cuts for the wealthy, corporations, and cutting of government benefits and programs for the poor. If anyone wants what they have they can just go out and work for it – even though they’re also against the minimum wage. I tried to counter on several points but they had excuses galore, finally I brought up Iraq and the unnecessary billions we’re spending there and got the FREEDOM FREEDOM FREEDOM mantra, “Yes I’ll let my neighbor down the street starve and go homeless if it means protecting freedom!"

I actually had to explain to my brother that there were no WMD’s and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and when I mentioned the civilians we are killing he said he couldn’t believe our soldiers were killing them, as though the ONLY culpability in a person’s death is the person pulling the trigger. Creating the situation that unnecessarily kills people, A-OK.
~~
Long story short – and their story is a typical one – they mistake Republican for true conservatism and Democratic compassion for taking what’s “mine.” I don’t do well under pressure so I want to be prepared with a list of things to rattle off next time as to where their ‘precious’ tax dollars ARE being spent, as this ignorance continues to rear its ugly head.

And to clarify just one thing, the real issue is not that they may be wrong on the facts, it’s that they don’t care enough to research and KNOW whether or not they are right OR wrong on the issue, not unlike our beloved Dobson drones.
~~
So I’m looking for things like statistics and/or congressional bills that have been passed where they cut taxes for the wealthy but also cut benefits to veterans. Anything along the lines of “You don’t want to spend money on this, but you’re willing to spend money on this?!” More money spent on prisons vs schools would be a good example.

One actual example I remember was approving the 20 million dollar victory party for Iraq yet cutting some 14 million in funding for improved helmets to protect those in combat (I’m still looking for the source on the latter). Cutting veterans benefits or gear for the troops is primo info. Like when anti-gay bigots “love” homosexuals by treating us like dogs, they “support the troops” and wounded Iraq veterans by ensuring their financial insecurity and health care misery – and that of their families.

Let me know if anything comes up like this or if you remember anything from the past few years. I’ve been watching C-SPAN like a hawk since ‘04 and I know I’ve witnessed scores of examples in that time. If you don’t have the source don’t worry about it, I can always do a search if I get desperate.

[Emproph]

I got this in my email from my mother to the immediate family, your standard loving motherspam as it were, without the link or mention of where it was from. If you’re familiar with World Net Daily I need explain no more (they’re hideously anti-gay). If not, here’s a taste (just a taste) of the article. Click on the link to read it in full.

World Net Daily (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53028)
Made in the USA: Spoiled brats
Craig R. Smith

The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came across some poll data I found rather hard to believe.

The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of Americans are unhappy with the direction the country is headed and 69 percent of the country is unhappy with the performance of the president. In essence 2/3s of the citizenry just ain't happy and want a change.

Is it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter? Could it be that 95.4 percent of these unhappy folks have a job? Maybe it is the ability to walk into a grocery store at any time and see more food in moments than Darfur has seen in the last year?

Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along the way that can provide temporary shelter? I guess having thousands of restaurants with varying cuisine from around the world is just not good enough.This all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias raping and pillaging the residents. Neighborhoods where 90 percent of teenagers own cell phones and computers.

How about the complete religious, social and political freedoms we enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the world?

I know, I know. What about the president who took us into war and has no plan to get us out? The president who has a measly 31 percent approval rating? Is this the same president who guided the nation in the dark days after 9/11? The president that cut taxes to bring an economy out of recession? Could this be the same guy who has been called every name in the book for succeeding in keeping all the spoiled brats safe from terrorist attacks?

Say what you want but I blame it on the media.
And yes, that would be the same president who's response to the words “America is under attack” was to continue reading the children’s book “My Pet Goat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI5NKtrPUd0&mode=related&search=).”

Anyone who considers that response to threat to be acceptable IS a threat.

Basically I walked away from this article/email with the sense that (re Iraq), as a Christians, we should destroy the lives of others and then sit back and be grateful for what we have that they don't.

Puke-o-rama. :sick:

[Emproph]

This is my response to the email above. Keep in mind that my “Christian” brother and his wife (not the NRA4EVR brother) – who signed the anti-gay FL marriage amendment – were also recipients of that email, so it’s written with them in mind too.
~~
How silly of me. Open restaurants and access to motels makes that 350 Billion we’ve spent to kill 3000 of our own and well over 50,000 Iraqi citizens worth it!

In fact I’m glad we didn’t find any Weapons of Mass Destruction.

I’m also glad that we knew (as per CNN - as per me!) that North Korea and Iran had nuclear capabilities even before we attacked Iraq.

I’m also glad that Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11.

And let’s not forget Haliburton and no bid contracts, millions if not billions in waste fraud and abuse – intentionally overlooked by this oh-so-Christian Republican administration and congress.

-The 9-11commision recommendations STILL have not been fully implemented. How could that not be a good thing?

-Funding cuts at every turn for Iraq war veterans and needed equipment for troops. But who cares about those who are giving their lives IN VAIN to protect the safety of my hard earned tax dollars as long as I can stick my fingers in my ears and go "lalalalalalalalalalalala!" Phew, problem solved.
~~
Overall, it’s a really good thing that we’re causing 9-11 repeatedly, to a country that had nothing to do with 9-11, in order to prevent another 9-11.

But let’s all continue to piss and moan about how those atheist democrats want to take away what’s ours to actually help the less fortunate. How dare they divert our hard earned tax dollars away from unnecessarily killing and maiming our Iraqi brothers and sisters. I am truly an ungrateful wretch.

Oh that’s right, I forgot, if they’re muslim they’re not human. And besides, how better for our "Christian Nation" to help the world know that Jesus Christ himself is just one big steaming pile of excrement?
~~
http://costofwar.com/index.html
Now would you say that was ‘ticking’ off at two, or three thousand dollars per second?
~~
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
-Fortunately they don’t just estimate - they document, because if it were more than 53,000 people killed in the worst ways possible - in my name - then I’d feel guilty.
~~
It’s precisely because I have those freedoms that I happen to be "not happy" about the way this country is going. And it’s scum like Craig R. Smith who help to perpetuate that "not happiness" within those of us who actually happen to have an ethical bone in our bodies.

Craig R. Smith is a World Net Daily hack. The man’s archives are one diatribe after another about what’s wrong with this country, and it’s all blame-blame-blame-blame-blame. He is the exemplification of "spoiled brat."

Furthermore, World Net Daily has perfected the art of hypocrisy and Slander. The only real "issue" World Net Daily could possibly report on at this point would be their intentional dishonesty and consistent denial of fact.
~~
P.S. Make sure not to Google anything.

And definitely definitely don’t spend any time below doing research to find out whether or not you or I are right OR wrong on any of this. Remember, certainty is the enemy – just as God created it. After all, we were made in his image. Idiocy is of course the best way to reflect that.

www.nationalpriorities.org (http://www.nationalpriorities.org)

P.P.S. If you think this was mean you should have seen my first draft...

I'm going to check my email now after having sent this yesterday, wish me luck... :rolleyes: (like I need it, I have My Pet Goat on my side.. :lol:)

[Steven E. Webster]

Reading your story reminds me of the book "Don't Think of an Elephant" That book does a really good job of explaining the mindsets or "Frames" that give Conservative Republicans and Progressives such very different mind sets. It explains, for instance, how the word "freedom" means completely different things to Conservative Republicans and Progressives.

It can get frustrating trying to dialogue with folks who simply do not see the world the same way we do. We can't give up, though.

Steven Webster

[Emproph]

Ok this is about to get good.

[Emproph]

(To be clear, I'm having problems in the spiritual non-violent department.. In fact I need an "intervention." :agree:) That said:
~~
Here’s the funny one from my sister (the older one, my age). I guess she’s not used to seeing www.links.com (http://www.links.com) in her email. Her last sentence with the 'links' though actually works.. :rofl:

Soak it up kids – ‘hell to pay on the way.
~~
(reply)

Whew!!!!!
Wow! Hello Patrick. You’re alive and well I see. www.oprah.com (http://www.oprah.com) Spending all your time worring about things that you can’t change. www.drphil.com (http://www.drphil.com) Bitching about them to those who are closest and (really could care less), working on a computer that you didn’t earn and living in a home that was a gift. www.google.com (http://www.google.com) Must be nice! Maybe I’m on the wrong websites.

I don’t know why you’re so interested in the lives of Irakeess and Muslin’s www.fabric.com (http://www.fabric.com) when you do nothing but cause a daily verbal and non verbal war on your own family. You are no better than Bush. www.nickjr.com (http://www.nickjr.com)

By the way who the heck is Haliburton and what hard earned tax dollars are you talking about? Yours??????? You have to www.work.com (http://www.work.com) to earn www.dollars.com (http://www.dollars.com) that could be www.taxed.com (http://www.taxed.com).

Right?

Anyhoo….Blah Blah Blah about the rest.

www.gottago.com (http://www.gottago.com)

-X

[tpdncr4christ]

Maybe, if your family is so obsessed with their freedom, ask them what they think of the President. Perhaps they have forgotten that good old Bush can tap and record any telephone conversation he feels like, if he can call it a threat to national security. Or maybe they don't know that the government has the power to throw citizens in jail without the right to a trial or a phone call, on the sole basis of suspicion of terrorist activities. They probably think that we as a people are truly free, but they forget that as the days turn to weeks, and months to years Iraq continues to piss other people off. In response to pissed off people our government moves to protect us. And by their protection, we loose freedoms.

Maybe you should clarify with them, that to have freedom is to loose safety, and to be safe is to loose freedoms. That might enlighten them to their own hypocrisy.

Austin

PS - I myself would gladly give up freedoms for my safety, even if it sounds other wise... :p I hope that helps...

[Emproph]

It's a good suggestion tpdncr4christ, I'm just not the man to deliver their message of interest. I'm much better at dropping nuclear bombs to open people up to people like you that may actually can deliver those messages in spiritually non-violent ways though.

And davidcom, I didn't realize I would get sprayed in the way that I did. I've been in internet relay with them this afternoon, but let me try and hone this a bit better. I think it works out, at least in structure.

P.S. It's gonna get worse before it gets better...

[Daniel]

Spending all your time worring about things that you can’t change.

Emproph- intervention? I hear you buddy!

So your family shoots barbs back and forth?

At least you are talking. That's something. A something that can lead to something else.

Beats talking to a brick wall.

I wrote an email to my siblings this past year regarding gay marriage (3 out of 4 of them actually- my youngest brother has a 'live let live' policy) and got a response that echoes yours above from my missionary brother and his wife. My other three siblings? Nada.

It's hard having those who profess to love us actually ignore our concerns. They separate themelves from us by their judgement/condemnation, creating an abyss between us, one that cannot be traversed easily, unless, of course, one takes the tack that there isn't any separation at all, which entails a change of perception on our part.

Holding onto that may be hard, but someone's gotta do it.

All else is vengeance.

[Emproph]

The other responses were telling, they wholeheartedly supported this one from my brother who signed the FL “marriage amendment” petition. The others may not have known that, but I did.

The man and "his wife," literally went out of their way to prevent me from enjoying not only the right to marry, but also the rights of marriage, and did so behind my back.
~~
These Are MY Words!:



Wow thank you your high-ness for you kind hearted response. I can feel the love. And that you would be so considerate to redraft your pontification for us lowly ignorant peasants. Oh the brilliance of a mind ravaged with love and compassion. And to think of all your great contributions to life family and society, how you can find time to address the simple folk is truly awe inspiring and a lesson for us all. Oh that we would take the example of The Patrick on Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. After all you are the man that has perfected the art of getting every thing you want out of life without lifting a hand, without working and at the total expense of other people….Brilliant!! You should write the book, here’s your title “The Art of Getting Every Thing You Want Out of Life Without Lifting a Hand, Without Working and at the Total Expense of Other People” you can have that for free, no credit needed.. Oh, how do you do that.. Still getting stuff for free.

P.S. One of the great things about our country is that we have the freedom to disagree. But you don’t just disagree this is not about your political preference. You don’t like the war, fine we can disagree. There is lots of us in this country that don’t agree that’s what keeps us balanced from going too far to one side or the other and that’s one of the things that makes us a great nation. But you seem to feel the need to put all of us peons in our place by ranting and talking down to us. It seems some how disagreeing with the Great Patrick and your line of thinking is a mortal sin of which no one should be found guilty of. And then you seem to get a kick out of vomiting your distain for life and family out on your family. I would think that some one of your intelligence could recognize that maybe the best way to deal with an email that you don’t agree with is to respond with

“hi mom, I don’t agree with you but thanks any way” or

“hi mom thanks for dinner the other night and thanks for EVERYTHING else I have and yes I am thankful for my air-condition and my Budweiser and a roof over my head that’s not cardboard but please don’t send me stuff that supports what our country has been doing lately as I do not agree with that. Thanks Pat”.

But no, it appears that you feel that if you can just be sarcastic enough or cruel enough or offensive enough that maybe you can get it through our thick skulls that we might see the error of our ways and subscribe to your way of thinking. Again a brilliant mind at work, I’m in awe.

Well this thick scull has had enough of your vomit, so don’t vomit on me or my wife any more. It seems that the only thing that you have contributed to this family as long as I can remember is your sarcastic ungrateful spew. So stop vomiting on the rest of the family too.

Last year when the family sat down for your intervention I said that the thing that would change in our relationship if you didn’t change is that I would no longer hold my tong in regards to you. And I will not hold it. I will likely never respond to another one of your emails but I will not sit silent wile you use and abuse this family.

I realize that you sit up at night getting sloshed or normal as you may put it then respond to your emails, possibly thinking different about how you responded later but no matter it is still abuse I will not tolerate it. It may cross your mind that my response is not very Christian like and just what you would expect, coming from you I will take that as a complement.

P. P. S. if you feel the need to respond to this email feel free but your name and email address is already on my junk mail list and any response will go directly there were it will be automatically deleted.

If you have any thing to say to me say it to my face next time you see me.

xxxx
Well I certainly won’t deny that it was sarcastic, cruel and offensive enough, with the vain attempt to crack through numbskullery, I failed. But I figure when you get projection verbatim without even asking for it, you’re on to something. :inspector:
~~
Gives new meaning to idea of projectile "vomit" as it were.. But as Martha Stewart says, “It’s a good thing." He’s done all my work for me. The letter I have been beating myself up to complete is no more. Switch around a few words and the above expresses the HORROR of what I live with every day in my mind (regarding him).

I realize I'm responsible for my thoughts and not to absolve them of responsibility but I know they don’t mean to be mean, but I am truly blind with rage. And I know I’m transferring all the Dobson et al lies-anger onto them that they don’t even deserve. I actually want to hate them. I have become the thing I despise the most.
~~
Such a seemingly uncharacteristic response from him is enlightening despite its disillusionment. It put’s him squarely on my level, except for the fact that he doesn’t realize that...yet.

I thought he expressed himself well though if nothing else. Definitely merit to his message. But I’m still judging them through the pigeon hole of the petition they signed, That’s where I draw the line. So I guess it comes down to at least agreeing on what the line itself is in order to minimize conflict.

That would be the part I failed at completing...so far.

[Dash]

Ahhhh... my darling! You have renewed my faith in the family closet. :shield: Oy!! :lol:

Yes, yes...I did argue with my old man over New Years, but we kept it strictly politics and rilijin'...as always. We don't ever let it get personal.

;)

Chin up, young person!:love: :love:

[sawyer]

If they gave us the tax breaks that go with marriage we would have more money to spend which would stimulate the economy even more.

[Emproph]

So my sister wrote this from earlier, above. The links are a joke, she was making fun of me for including links in the original email. And then I made fun of her making fun of me back (below), so don't worry about clicking on them. :)

I don’t know why you’re so interested in the lives of Irakeess and Muslin’s www.fabric.com (http://www.fabric.com/) when you do nothing but cause a daily verbal and non verbal war on your own family. You are no better than Bush. www.nickjr.com (http://www.nickjr.com/)

By the way who the heck is Haliburton and what hard earned tax dollars are you talking about? Yours??????? You have to www.work.com (http://www.work.com/) to earn www.dollars.com (http://www.dollars.com/) that could be www.taxed.com (http://www.taxed.com).

Anyhoo….Blah Blah Blah about the rest.
www.gottago.com (http://www.gottago.com/)

so then I wrote this back:

That's funny.

You really get the www.lazinessIdontcare.com (http://www.lazinessidontcare.com/) feeling from the www.gratuitoususeof.com (http://www.gratuitoususeof.com/) "links."

And to be truthful, I knew I www.forgotsomething.com (http://www.forgotsomething.com/). I forgot the caveat!:

"Please don't take it personally when I blame you ALL, for ALL of the bloodshed on the opposite side of the Earth."

As you can see it could have happened to anyone. I'm half www.kidding.com (http://www.kidding.com/) of course.

Blah www.blah.com (http://www.blah.com/) blah,

www.-P.com (http://www.-p.com/)
And then my mom wrote this,
Let's just agree to disagree and end it. Love, Mom.
And then I wrote this,

First of all it was not my intention for this to get this far, and I don't mean this as an attack, but this is my point. What is it that we are agreeing to disagree on?

That silent pause, that's what we're disagreeing on. The importance of agreeing on what is truly evil. Lip Service would cover the bill, at least I would know you were thinking about it enough to appease my heartfelt concerns.

Again, I'm not pressing you or anyone on this right now, but it's come this far so I'm explaining. In fact scratch that, just tell me you're upset about innocent people getting killed in your name, or does that not bother you. I actually do need to know that. If I can't put that to rest, then it never really ends and this anger will just rear its ugly head again at another opportune time.

I don't consider the legitimacy of the lives of others to be a negotiable point to be agreed or disagreed upon, if you infact do believe that, then we perhaps can agree to disagree on that. But I would need to know that specifically.

What are your feelings, what have you thought on this? Think about it, think about my asking about it. Take your time. I don't mean that patronizingly, but I am asking sincerely.

Thank You,

~intermission~Dirty Laundry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUst0jKW7SM)~intermission~

And then she wrote this,

I had no idea you would not KNOW that we are in agreement with you about all of the murder. But here are a few of my thoughts.

In fact, I am quite sickened by what is going on in our world, namely: all those young boys getting killed in wars (Five of my uncles in the same family were in WWII simultaneously - thank God they all came home), the 40 million (abortions) read that slaughtered babies that have occurred in the last many years in the US alone, the rampant abuse...sexual, physical and emotional, the kidnappings, the pornography, the hunger, the poverty and the lack of peace in the world.

I mean I could go on and on and on. I hate it all. It angers me and sickens me. Evil is so prevalent in our society. Why? Because God has certainly taken a back seat. "So many have wandered further and further away from the truth and the enemy is making fools of them." God has allowed evil to flourish for the time being, but it will not prevail in the end.

Make no mistake, there is Spiritual Warfare going on. There is a constant battle being waged for our souls. That's another thing we used to hear about growing up....our souls. Keep them pure. After all, it is our soul that lives on. But do we even HEAR about this any more? No. It is, indeed, the core of our being. Our souls do not get nourished, consequently, we (the world) do not thrive spiritually. God brings peace. The enemy brings distress.

One mother said, "I can say that a spiritual attack takes away the desire to be with God." I would even say this entire lack of unity within our family and the negative emails going back and forth, stirring up animosity, is from the devil.

The devil sends temptation and "works tirelessly to sow seeds of restlessness and anger, frustration and bitterness. He has so well camouflaged himself that we lose sight of him if we are not looking carefully."

The following comes from a book I have read, One chapter is titled, Who is the Devil? The FBI uses criminal profiling to assist with crime investigation and prevention. Profiling an offender helps to identify one likely to commit a certain type of crime. It is good to know our enemy because we can then protect ourselves from those who seek to hurt us. Below is a list of characteristics of the devil.

Arrogant, cruel, proud, hateful, envious, angry, jealous, liar, cold, unfeeling, duplicitous, callous, selfish in the extreme, unkind, sneaky, sly, unscrupulous, manipulative, stubborn, hates innocence, unfaithful, mocking, destructive, slippery, gleeful at humanity's pain, false, phoney, fake, mimics holiness/goodness/honesty, disobedient, dishonest, evil, tricky, never changing in terms of his goals, always seeking destruction of mankind, slave to his hatred, it rules him, dictates his every action and emotion, raging, furious, Did I say arrogant? Untimately helpless, which fuels the rage, uses humanity like playthings, greedy, bullying. fair weather friend, gluttonous, instills fear and confusion, aggressive, blows hard, rants/raves, mixes bad with good to confuse, mixes truth with lies to confuse, seeks to incite, seduce, disillusion, leads away from duty, distorts truth and motivation, humiliates, destroys dignity and integrity, seeks to mould souls into his image as mimicry of God, inconsistent in strategies, blends, adapts changes tactics when necessary.

The author also says the "devil can use a guilty conscience powerfully so we must be diligent about accepting God's forgiveness."

When I was growing up I learned from the Baltimore Catechism Series. Vatican II came along and it affected the next generation of teaching to the negative.

The first few questions in our book were:
Who made you? God made me. Why did He make you? To know him, to love, him, to serve him and to be happy with him in this world and the next.

Again, in the 50s, we were encouraged over and over again, to pray for the conversion of Russia. People said rosary after rosary after rosary for the conversion of Russia. Many years/decades later, Communism fell in Russia. It was prayer that did it. Don't ever underestimate THE POWER of prayer. It is THE MOST POWERFUL weapon....against evil, the devil and all the injustice that goes on in our world. The people who have been murdered are in Heaven. Those who murder will be dealt with by God.

What can I do? My very small, insignificant self can pray and serve......in many different ways. And this, by many, is what will change our world. Prayer, acts of sacrifice and service toward others.

I believe I will be dealt with by my omissions in life....what I COULD have done and didn't, rather than my sins of commission.

There is a prayer (among others) I say everyday:
I confess to Almighty God, the Blessed Mary Ever Virgin and all the Angels & Saints, that I have sinned, through my fault....in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done & what I have FAILED to do. And I ask the Blessed Mary Ever Virgin, All the angels & saints, and you my brothers & Sisters, to pray for me to the Lord, Our God.

This world is so temporary. It is only, really in the scheme of things, the blink of an eye. My main goal is to get to Heaven. It may not look like it, but DAILY, I am working toward that end. And for all of you to be there with me, too.

Yes, Patrick, I am as sickened by what is going on in the world. As I've mentioned above, prayer, sacrifice and service is my way of assuaging the evil in the world.

I love you. Love, Mom

~~
My thoughts:
“My main goal is to get to Heaven.”
I think it's more about escaping hell in this instance. Such certainty of scarcity yet such reverent fear of a “loving” creator (shudder). Original sin is the belief in sin, but how do I say that to her? I'm so out of the fear loop I don't even know where to start. :confused:

(there's my fear.. I'm confused, I don't know what to do. Never mind everybody, I'm perfectly afraid now.. :tup:)
~~
the 40 million (abortions) read that slaughtered babies that have occurred in the last many years in the US alone @40,000 needless deaths every single day due to starvation and malnutrition, that's nearly 15 MILLION DEATHS per year. Tragic as it is, forty million abortion deaths doesn't even cover the past three years.
One mother said, "I can say that a spiritual attack takes away the desire to be with God." I would even say this entire lack of unity within our family and the negative emails going back and forth, stirring up animosity, is from the devil.I feel like this fear of animosity is the fear of resolution. Like the only reason it's fearful is because we're not used to it. As though there's not enough 'forgiveness' to go around. I'd rather have the space to argue and forgive than a peace that's confined. But I don't think I'd know that without this current experience.

characteristics of the devil (from above):
Arrogant, cruel, proud, hateful, envious, angry, jealous, liar, cold, unfeeling, duplicitous, callous, selfish in the extreme, unkind, sneaky, sly, unscrupulous, manipulative, stubborn, hates innocence, unfaithful, mocking, destructive, slippery, gleeful at humanity's pain, false, phoney, fake, mimics holiness/goodness/honesty, disobedient, dishonest, evil, tricky, never changing in terms of his goals, always seeking destruction of mankind, slave to his hatred, it rules him, dictates his every action and emotion, raging, furious, Did I say arrogant? Untimately helpless, which fuels the rage, uses humanity like playthings, greedy, bullying. fair weather friend, gluttonous, instills fear and confusion, aggressive, blows hard, rants/raves, mixes bad with good to confuse, mixes truth with lies to confuse, seeks to incite, seduce, disillusion, leads away from duty, distorts truth and motivation, humiliates, destroys dignity and integrity, seeks to mould souls into his image as mimicry of God, inconsistent in strategies, blends, adapts changes tactics when necessary. Who needs to be TOLD all that? I realize that there are some people that may need this instruction, but is this need normal? In fact don't answer that.

And duplicitous? I don’t mean to nitpick or anything but that adjective alone pretty much makes the devil half God. Which makes sheer evil half good. If the devil is duplicitous by nature, then by nature it cannot be a cohesive unit. To the extent that duplicitousness is impossible, so too is the devil. The devil, by its own nature is impossible. :eek:

Nothing could be truly duplicitous and still be one whole thing. And nothing doesnt exist! :lol:

Now how do I put that into dogmatic terms even a Catholic mother could love?

[Daniel]

Patrick- Your mom is....well....a handful. :lol: I bet she didn't mean it this way, but when I read her words "God has certainly taken a back seat", I started to laugh, imagining a wizened old man in the back seat of a cab, you in the passenger seat, your mother at the wheel. God yelling "where they hell are you taking us lady?"

My fundi brother has been known to 'go off' about original sin, which makes me think of babies being born with some kind of deformity. It's strange, when you take a good look at the strange ideas people come up with. And original sin seems one of the most strangest of all. It's a very effective idea, however, if one wants to decide what and who is sinful. Then the hoop jumping starts. I know the great theologians have stacks of books on this idea. All I gotta say is that, no matter how you add it up, what pretty face you draw on it, in the end, it's a bad idea, and an even worse teaching tool.

It's like telling a tennis player something is wrong with his feet. If he thinks about it too much, he won't be able to move. He's gotta learn to keep his eye on the ball.

The Inner Game of Love.

[BenL]

My fundi brother has been known to 'go off' about original sin, which makes me think of babies being born with some kind of deformity. It's strange, when you take a good look at the strange ideas people come up with. And original sin seems one of the most strangest of all. It's a very effective idea, however, if one wants to decide what and who is sinful. Then the hoop jumping starts. I know the great theologians have stacks of books on this idea. All I gotta say is that, no matter how you add it up, what pretty face you draw on it, in the end, it's a bad idea, and an even worse teaching tool.

At the risk of starting a tangent, the idea of original sin codified by Augustine for the western church, was the result of a theological battle he had with Pelagius, a Celtic theologian. Pelagius' notion was of Original Blessing. As you say, there have been tomes written on both sides. Here's one UCC pastor's take on it: http://www.religionandspirituality.com/morebeliefs/view.php?StoryID=20060814-113932-2962r
A Google search turns up all sorts of references.

BenL

[novaseeker]

Eastern Orthodox are very skeptical of Augustine's theology of Original Sin because of its emphasis on utter depravity and an in-born stain of guilt such that those born into Original Sin cannot be in the presence of God unless that sin is removed (this is where the theory of 'limbo' comes from ... it is where babies without actual sin, but with Original Sin (due to lack of baptism) go because while their lack of actual sin precludes the 'punishment' of hell, the presence of unremoved Original Sin precludes full communion with God). Augustine's theory of Original Sin also forms the basis for substitutionary atonement theologies as well as things like the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

The view that many Orthodox theologians have of Original Sin is that it is the inheritance of mortality -- it isn't so much a stain that precludes communion with God as the inheritance of immortality in our mortal flesh ... an inheritance that is "washed away" in the waters of baptism in which we die with Christ and are risen again in Christ -- in other words, in baptism we "put on Christ" and therefore share in his inheritance of immortality, replacing our prior inheritance of mortality, and our death experience is transformed, if we live our lives in Christ, to the death experience of Christ - i.e., not as a terminal experience, but as a passage to new life. Original sin, seen in this light, is, to my spiritual experience at least, more understandable, less abstract, and more sensible -- but I do respect Augustine's views as well as those who have theologies that derive from his own.

[Daniel]

The view that many Orthodox theologians have of Original Sin is that it is the inheritance of mortality -- it isn't so much a stain that precludes communion with God as the inheritance of immortality in our mortal flesh ... an inheritance that is "washed away" in the waters of baptism in which we die with Christ and are risen again in Christ -- in other words, in baptism we "put on Christ" and therefore share in his inheritance of immortality, replacing our prior inheritance of mortality, and our death experience is transformed, if we live our lives in Christ, to the death experience of Christ - i.e., not as a terminal experience, but as a passage to new life. Original sin, seen in this light, is, to my spiritual experience at least, more understandable, less abstract, and more sensible -- but I do respect Augustine's views as well as those who have theologies that derive from his own.

Nova- I love reading you posts, especially as the law in concerned. However, your desription of original sin as understood within the Eastern Orthodox faith, which you describe as less abstract and more understandable, seems anything but to this reader. Perhaps that is because you use 'inheritence of mortality' and 'inheritence of immortality' both within the breath of one sentence, thus making my brain synapses fry?

Wanting to undertand what you are trying to convey, would you consider a restatement for this lowly layman?

[revtj]

Wow, some deep stuff here....

The original sin argument is thick with history but how come no one ever talks about how it alienates us from God, self and neighbor allowing us to bear false witness about things like WMDs, and against our poorer neighbor, and the immigrant, who are all being blamed for our economic problems. There is a deliberate attempt to paint welfare recipients as the real problem yet the amount of money spent on the poor in these programs is a speck of sand on the map compared to corporate welfare.

We should worry a whole lot more that corporations are taking over our destiny than liberals or democrats!

Some interesting links:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html

http://www.randomhouse.com/features/informant/aboutbook.html)

Those who favor corporations over their poor neighbor can call themselves a lot of things but they can't square the practice with biblical christianity. Both OT & NT are replete with warnings, admonitions & laws demanding that we take care of the poor. Jesus' whole life was spent doing that (talk about accessible healthcare...people fought just to touch the hem of his tunic!)

More links to describe the domination of corporations we are under and the free ride they are getting:

http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2003/11/04/rtr1135443.html
http://www.time.com/time/2002/enron/

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Cheneys_stock_options_rose_3281_last_1011.html
http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/ns09222004.cfm

http://homepage.mac.com/gcatalone/iblog/B946297652/C1838268097/E20060507212307/index.html

We are so polarized over these issues but it's time the FACTS got to the masses. The middle class are shouldering the tax burden and the poor are getting left behind [pun intended].

Pray for America to be liberated from the corporate demonic influence that has seized us. :pray:

[novaseeker]

Nova- I love reading you posts, especially as the law in concerned. However, your desription of original sin as understood within the Eastern Orthodox faith, which you describe as less abstract and more understandable, seems anything but to this reader. Perhaps that is because you use 'inheritence of mortality' and 'inheritence of immortality' both within the breath of one sentence, thus making my brain synapses fry?

Wanting to undertand what you are trying to convey, would you consider a restatement for this lowly layman?

Hehe, I guess I did write it in an abstract way, didn't I? Let me see if I can explain it better.

I guess the way that my Eastern priest friends taught it to me was that when we are born, we are born into a life of death -- that is to say, death is in our flesh and bones, it is a part of our condition existentially. We're all mortal -- from the moment we are born, one of the great realities of our life is the reality of death. Eastern theology sees this as being the mark of original sin -- we inherit this mortality from the sin of Adam (and Eve) -- it was that first sin, the original sin, that changed Adam and made him mortal, and therefore it was only his mortality that could be passed down unto all subsequent human generations. It's this mortality that is the mark of Adam's sin in all human beings.

In Jesus Christ, the mortal human nature inherited from Adam in the flesh of Mary is united with the immortal divine nature of the Son of God in one person. Christ's human nature is united with his divine nature by means of being united together with it in the one person of Jesus. And because it is united to Christ's divine nature, his human nature -- by virtue of this union -- is no longer a mortal human nature (i.e., that which was inherited from the post-fall mortal nature of Adam), but an immortal one, restored to its original pre-fall state of immortality by virtue of being united with the immortal divinity of the Son of God.

Individual Christians are born into mortality as everyone else is. By virtue of baptism, the person dies with Jesus and is raised with Jesus and "puts on Christ" -- that is, one's mortal nature is transformed through union with Jesus (not a union by incorporation into Christ's person, as it was for Christ's human nature, but a union by grace and communion with God in and through Jesus) into an immortal nature. That doesn't mean that people don't die -- even Jesus died. What it means is that when death happens, it is the same experience for the Christian who dies "in Christ" as it was for Christ, because the Christian's mortal nature has been transformed into an immortal nature through a transformative life of communion in Christ. [***-- see below]

Now what I wrote there makes it sound like baptism is magic, but that's not generally the way it's understood by Orthodox -- baptism is the beginning of the transformative life, not its dispositive end. The tradition is that one's entire life is a way of living out one's baptism, of growing ever closer to Christ, into ever more perfect communion with him and, through him, with God. It's a life of transformation and grace that the Orthodox refer to as "theosis" (often translated as "dvinization", but that's really a poor translation ... what it means is that the individual's human nature is being transformed by grace into the kind of human nature that Jesus has -- into a "divinized" human nature thoroughly flooded with God's grace (which the Orthodox refer to as "divine energy")).

So when original sin is looked at as the "inheritance of mortality", that means that we're all born into a mortal state as human beings. It doesn't mean, from this perspective (and I'm not saying other perspectives are invalid, I'm just trying to clarify this perspective), that one is not "justified" in the eyes of God. It simply means that one is mortal, and this is not what God intended us to be when he created humankind. The tremendous act of self-giving by Jesus in undergoing a human death (so that death could be transformed for all of those who live "in him") was done, per this perspective, not to pay off a debt, or to satisfy divine justice, but to restore humanity to its intended state of immortal life and communion with God. This perspective doesn't view the crucifixion from the perspective of substitutionary atonement, but rather from the perspective of triumph and restoration -- God's voluntary act of undergoing death so as to take away the "sting" of death, and restore his creation to the way he intended it to be, despite its own flaws and mistakes.

I think I've probably still stated what's a very simple idea in a complicated way. Stated as simply as I can manage: God became human so that humanity can become what God intended humanity to be -- not just morally (although that's very important because it reflects a life of growing communion with God in Christ), but in terms of humanity's very *nature*.

------------------------------

*** -- The liturgical traditions of baptism differ, and in some ways also reflect the divergent ideas about "Original Sin". In most "mainline" Western traditions (not all, but most), baptism is normally done by the sprinkling of water over the head, or perhaps the pouring of water over the head. The liturgical symbolism in either case is primarily one of "cleansing" -- washing away the stain of Original Sin and making one a part of the Body of Christ. In the Eastern tradition, the baptism is performed differently. Most typically with infants (but also with adult newcomers), there is a large font, and the child is thrust down into the water and up again out of the water rather vigorously three times by the priest (a typically trinitarian formulation), with the liturgical symbolism representing not only washing/cleaning (also present, of course), but also a "dying" (going down into the water) and a "resurrection" (coming up out of the water). This up and down way of performing "immersion baptism" is an intrinsic part of the rite, and is also performed for adult converts -- it's never done by pouring water over the head because that symbolism -- while perfectly appropriate for a more Augustinian approach towards Original Sin -- doesn't really reflect what the Orthodox theological tradition has become about these issues. It's interesting to see these kinds of liturgical diversities as a reflection of underlying theological diversities.

[tdogg]

Wow Patrick, here are some hugs for you, you need 'em! {{{:love: :love: :love: }}}

So, we are back at the argument "the devil made you do it". Yeah, I have some family who feel that way as well. It's a frustrating and nearly impossible argument to deal with. AGGGHHHHHHAAAAAAA! :headbang:

I dunno, just a thought, but perhaps the common Christian belief of "original sin" is partly why some folk destroy their precious little children? To save them from hell??? It's just so bizzare to me, and although it's something that's been hammered into my head (and out my ears thank goodness) by so-called Christian folk my whole life, but still hard to grasp and BIZARRE.

Sometimes it feels easier to go back into hiding and avoid 'them'. But we can't give up. Keep on keepin' on Patrick!:shield: :weee: :rainbow:

[Daniel]

Nova- thank you for the clarification. I get it now.

[kara speltz]

I dunno, just a thought, but perhaps the common Christian belief of "original sin" is partly why some folk destroy their precious little children? To save them from hell??? It's just so bizzare to me, and although it's something that's been hammered into my head (and out my ears thank goodness) by so-called Christian folk my whole life, but still hard to grasp and BIZARRE.



I think there's another aspect to this that's not being considered and that is the theology that the vast majority of Christians espouse saying that the only possible way to atone for all of our sins was for God to sacrifice His son. Even though I'm Catholic, I have a great deal of problems with this conception of God. Now I know that's going to freak out a lot of other christians, but I truly believe that we've got that theology wrong.

I don't fully understand the why's and the hows of Jesus life, except that He came to teach us about love. But I can't comprehend a God that would sacrifice his son. I just give thanks for the life of Jesus because it is a constant reminder to me that we are all called to unconditional love. I also don't believe that we can, in this life, comprehend God, so I'm willing to live with the lack of understanding.

Kara

[Tinkerbell047]

I don't remember where I heard this, but I remember last year, I believe, the Federal Government gave Alaska 2.7 (I think) BILLION (yes, with a B) dollars to build a bridge. Okay, so bridge building is a good thing, but here's the kicker: Said bridge would connect from mainland Alaska to a little island of 37 people. Okay, those 37 people have been using a ferry to get to their island and get back home for however many years, but the Feds decided that we could spend billions of dollars to make their lives more convenient... Oh, and I think I heard somewhere that the bridge would only cost a portion of that money. My question now is this: What did they do with the rest of the cash?

-Tink