Contemporary Christian Rock Gaybash song

[revtj]

Listen to this video:

http://garibaldigay.blogspot.com/2007/01/god-hates-fag-video.html

Is this where we're headed? What do they really think it accomplishes besides hate and violent attitudes?

What do ya'll think?

[keltic63]

I've been all over this in the past 24 hours! I was debating posting about it here, simply because I'm astonished that this song has been produced, let alone publicized. I know that there are a few organizations speaking out against it already.

some thought that it was a parody. however it appears that the guy is serious. some christian bands that were listed as friends on the performer's myspace page are distancing themselves from him.

parody or serious, the use of this particular slur is not acceptible. damage is done either way.

[Steven E. Webster]

T.J.

I caught this last nite while reading Andrew Sullivan's blog. At first I thought it must be a parody--then I checked out the guy's website. It's an ex-gay ministry. I wonder if it's a ministry officially connected with Exodus? I wonder if Exodus should be challenged to disavow this hate video.

Steven Webster

[BruceChris]

When I started to write this, revtj's post was the only one up. But you guys posted first, and what I thought I had to say by then was irrelevant, so I deleted it.

There's more than one way to waste your time online, and watching this video is certainly not one of the best.

P.S. David, I think I like your answer better than mine. We should pray for him.

P&L, BC

[revtj]

Wow, guys, I had the same reaction...if it's really meant to evangelize struggling gay christians it sure is going to flop. I can't see it being a hit with ANY young people except maybe Nazi youth or something...

I will never understand how people think they are showing God's Love when they hate. It's such a no-brainer to me...

It is absolutely heartbreaking to think of a questioning gay/bi teen hearing this song. I can't really bear the thought of what feelings/actions it could incite...

OH...the quote from Wilde on the website infuriated me...Wilde recanted his homosexuality in prison to spare his family embarrassment in Victorian England...it is plain fictitous to cite him as a reformed homosexual!

On a lighter note, I hope Stephen Colbert picks up on it. I'd love for him to get ahold of it.

[revtj]

www.lovegodsway.org has now removed the video "due to abuse" and apparently youtube took it down also. the garibaldigay site is the only place I can find it now...

[Daniel]

Saw this video yesterday and it reminded me of places and situations from my past that I don't relish re-visiting. No, I didn't go the ex-gay route, but the exaltation of self-hate masquerading as love, straining for some romantic notion of 'salvation', made my head spin and stomach turn, just like in my closeted AG days.

A fool's paradise.

Now....if only this young man will get some real help and come out in 4 years or so and make another video....same tune.....different lyrics.

God Loves Gays.

Then he'll be ready for his 15 minutes.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Satire is a difficult and often controversial art form, but that is what this video is. Unlike Landover Baptist and Betty Bowers, this one is not so obvious.

Here are my reasons:


Lack of "Donnie Davies" anywhere on Google associated with ex-gays before this website. It seems the name, like Betty Bowers, was chosen by the artists for this reason.

Lack of a donations page. What ministry or non-profit can do that? (this reason I originally read elsewhere)

The three websites (www.donniedavies.com www.eveningservice.com www.lovegodsway.org) all link to each other and only each other. A real ex-gay ministry would link to other fundamentalist organizations.

Over the top for even the ex-gays. Clay Aiken is listed in the Bad Bands promoting homosexuality. And the lyrics (besides the shocking chorus). I mean, who wears a pink shirt in disco lights and rhymes "Jesus is the only man for me" with "There lies no virtue, in Sod-o-my."

[keltic63]

www.lovegodsway.com (http://www.lovegodsway.com) has now removed the video "due to abuse" and apparently youtube took it down also. the garibaldigay site is the only place I can find it now...


wrong addie: it's http://lovegodsway.org/

but the video isn't there.

[keltic63]

I did find the video on myspace vids.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1793512672

view at your own risk. if you're viewing this as a person still struggling accepting yourself DO NOT CLICK on the link.

[andrewlittle]

Satire is a difficult and often controversial art form, but that is what this video is. Unlike Landover Baptist and Betty Bowers, this one is not so obvious.

Here are my reasons:


Lack of "Donnie Davies" anywhere on Google associated with ex-gays before this website. It seems the name, like Betty Bowers, was chosen by the artists for this reason.

Lack of a donations page

The three websites (www.donniedavies.com www.eveningservice.com www.lovegodsway.org) all link to each other and only each other

Over the top for even the ex-gays. Clay Aiken is listed in the Bad Bands promoting homosexuality.


I don't doubt your opinion, Jamie. I have now doubt you know more about researching this kind of thing than I do.

But, satire is hardly effective if it isn't, in some way, even a little bit obvious. As a satirical piece, I would give this a resounding "F".

True - when satire is taken out of context, it can be construed as serious. But, in what context is this funny? Is there an introduction missing that says, "i'm now going to act like a mindless moron and sing this foul song", or some tag at the end that says, "this is what you would sound like with your head shoved all the way up your ..."

As satire, it is a horrible disservice and insult. As a serious piece of music, it is the ugliest thing I've seen in a long time. Either way, it is putrid.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Yeah, I'm not saying that people's negative feelings toward the video are not genuine or powerful. I'm just suggesting it is very suspicious to me and I hope none of our LGBT organizations issue a press release over it (unless as an opportunity to say again that God loves and delights in LGBT people.)

I think, like the movie Borat, this video is meant to mock what it depicts rather than endorse.

I still have mixed feelings after seeing Borat, by the way. I understand it made a lot of people angry during its production due to it not being obvious (i.e. Borat was not actually a homophobic, sexist, anti-Semitic documentarian from the nation of Kazakhstan.)

[Daniel]

Jamie- I hope to God that you are right! That would be nice. Though I agree with Andrew: effective satire is usually more obvious. Which may prove one essential point: get all the facts before having a reaction like mine.

But maybe, just maybe.....that was the point?

All this reminds me of the dictum of P.T. Barnum: "There is no bad publicity."

[Zerbie]

Must be a pretty crappy video - my computer simply refuses to play it.
Whoever wrote it is getting a lot of undeserved attention, too.

[Jamie McDaniel]

All this reminds me of the dictum of P.T. Barnum: "There is no bad publicity."

Where did I hear this line last week? Oh yes, I remember. It was because of those horrid LowerMyBills.com ads that are everywhere on the internet these days. Looking at those distracting ridiculous ads made me so mad :hissy: that I googled them and found more annoyed people discussing them. Someone said they were so effective because it made people take notice. They used the line, "There is no bad publicity." I found myself really disagreeing with that statement (though apparently there is truth to it (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/18/business/media/18adco.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=e519034c8a508bf5&ex=1169787600).) I will never use LowerMyBills.com. Death to dancing silhouettes trying to get me a mortgage! :smashy:

Back to the video. I noticed that Andrew Sullivan has now gone on record saying he thinks it is satire.

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2007/01/spoiler.html

If this turns out to be the case, the question is whether it is brilliant (as Sullivan suggests) or an insulting failure (as our Andrew and many of you seem to be leaning.) I don't know, but I'd like to hear more of your thoughts. I observed a similiar discussion occurred over the movie Borat.

[tpdncr4christ]

I thought the movie was funny. Really, I was laughing. :eek: The guy is wearing a pink shirt and white pants, and is seen only with other guys. That was odd... I guess I was laughing at it cause I think it was stupid. But then again, it was offensive a little. If you listen to the lyrics, and I know I shouldn't, but if you listen with a dirty mind :eek: gasp!:eek: then it is quite funny.

"Fill me with Your love..."
"To enter Heaven there's no back door..."
"Righteous man, get on your knees..."
"There lies no virtue inside of me..."
"Cause Jesus my savior is the only man for me..."

But mostly, now that I think about it, I wonder how the song can be about God and never use the word love. He only uses the word hate.

Catchy tune though...

[GirlGirl]

Chuck Bowen, who used to head up Equality Georgia, said that after the press talked to him about some issue (like gay foster parents) they'd go talk to the other side. He wanted them to talk to the most extreme representative on the Christian right. Why? Because they didn't show up well in comparison.

I think that's true here. A neutral party is horrified by this kind of thing.

Also, fundamental Christians NEVER say God hates gays. They say God hates the sin, but loves the sinner. That makes it more clear that it's either satire or one very scary human being. (I was going for the scary human idea before now.)

In spite of all this clear, rational reasoning, I am disturbed by the way the singer looks at the camera when he says "God hates you too." It's too powerful. I felt yucky, and as a lesbian I don't even really exist for Christians. I think it's too dangerous to have out there. Could fire up some self-hatred or some gay-bashing.

Lisa

[Daniel]

Finding the origin of a quote can be tricky business. The phrase "There is no such thing as bad publicity (shame on me for not researching this before!) turns up this:

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/37239.html
There is no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary.
Brendan Behan

Irish author & dramatist (1923 - 1964)

Not what I expected. Though there is plenty of instances of the phrase- or some variant thereof- being attributed to Barnum, I could not find any source that is reliable. But this bit of Barnum blarney (or truism - if you prefer) did turn up, and seems relevant to the matter at hand:

http://www.ptbarnum.org/humbugs.html

An honest man who arrests public attention will be called a "humbug,"' but he is not a swindler or an impostor. If, however, after attracting crowds of customers by his unique displays, a man foolishly fails to give them a full equivalent for their money, they never patronize him a second time, but they very properly denounce him as a swindler, a cheat, an impostor; they do not, however, call him a "humbug." He fails, not because he advertises his wares in an outre manner, but because, after attracting crowds of patrons, he stupidly and wickedly cheats them.

P.T. Barnum--"Humbugs of the World"

So....is Donnie a humbug or a swindler?

[tpdncr4christ]

Donnie? I think he's just gay. Remember that forum I posted a few weeks ago, Can a Homophobe be a Homo? I think Donnie here is a prime example.

:rainbow:

[Joe Brummer]

Andrew Sullivan is reeporting that this is in fact a hoax. From a nonviolence stand, I think it is offensive from all sides. From an ex-gay point is is offensive to portray ex-gays this way, it isn't how they really are for the most part. From a gay stand point, what isn't offensive about it......


Joe

[Daniel]

From a gay stand point, what isn't offensive about it......

....is that it falls in (or under!) the category called camp.

And as we know, there are two sub-categories within the phenomena called camp: the good and the bad.

If bad is good.....well.......


addendum:

....this is very post-modern way to deal with the issue of homophobia.

post·mod·ern (pōst-mŏd'ərn)
adj.
Of or relating to art, architecture, or literature that reacts against earlier modernist principles, as by reintroducing traditional or classical elements of style or by carrying modernist styles or practices to extremes.

[dewdrop_world]

Out of curiosity I took a look at the myspace page. He's 29?? No way. I would have guessed late 30's easily, if not mid-40's.

Self-repression ages one so rapidly.

Of course, if it is satire, then the old-school bible belt moustache (that right there adds about 10 years) is a shrewd choice. :lol:

James

[Dash]

It's absolutely hideous, vile, putrid, and in the poorest taste imaginable!

Ick! :sick:

(and having said that...yes...it made me:shifty: laugh just a bit)

But I felt really bad about that too.

The thing is...it's so elaborate... to go to all that trouble to write a song...make a slick little video...craft a website with a message...

Whatever... Real or not, it is a bad idea and rots in its execution.

:smashy: :smashy:

Smashy smashy!!!

[Emproph]

From a gay stand point, what isn't offensive about it.......is that it falls in (or under!) the category called camp.

And as we know, there are two sub-categories within the phenomena called camp: the good and the bad.

If bad is good.....well.......:rofl:
~~
Jim over at box turtle posted the second video intallment from Donnie Davies:
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/01/24/195

At the end of the video commentary it fades out to a redo of the Psychedelic Furs' "love my way (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTfh0K-UuiA)," except it's sung as "love God's way."

Take from that what you will, but the acronym C.H.O.P.S. sounds disturbingly suspicious. Talk about anti-gay visual imagery. :eek:

If it's satire it seems that it was designed as a virus, to make its way into radical "Christian" right consciousness insidiously. Not necessarily to mock them, as that is too easy, but to identify for others their immoral understanding of loving "Gods way." Like Michael Swift's article "The Gay Agenda (http://rainbowallianceopenfaith.homestead.com/GayAgenda.html)." Satire that's regularly presented as fact.

Or perhaps the motive is to "teach the controversy," as our beloved 'intelligent designers' attempted to do. As long as we debate whether or not to teach ID as science, we're debating the very meaning of science without even knowing it.

Science or faith, fact or fiction, satire or not, the obligation to discern whether or not God's love includes the meaning of sheer hatred – at least for the time being – has been put back on the table.

And IMO, that's really the ultimate question.

[revtj]

Whatever it is it gives a whole new dimension to 'stir the stank.'

The gay blogger consensus seems to be that it's parody.

That fine line between outrageous sarcasm (like Borat) and stereotypical truth is a slippery slope. I have always loved inappropriate humor and have no problem laughing at gay jokes, etc., but then there's that thing, like Jesse Jackson calling NYC 'Hymietown', or Isaiah Washington calling the gay guy on Grey's Anatomy a faggot, that can skewer your integrity, for a while at least. And now there's rehab for that???? What a world!

Honestly, I think laughter can do a lot to heal oppressions, it certainly helps me. But I have learned to be careful and sensitive recognizing it doesn't work that way for everyone...sometimes it is like salt poured in the wound.

That this Donnie guy remains incognito really makes it more salt than funny to me. No healing seems to be in his motive.

PS: Speaking of double-entendre, the statement from Donnie, "Thank you Andrew Sullivan for getting behind me!" had both biblical and sexual hilarity embedded in it for me, since, as you all know, I am not one of Andrew's fans. Christina! Bring. Me. The Ax!

[tpdncr4christ]

Here's what I know: He is a self proclaimed "ex-gay" who has within the last two months begun a ministry to help other gays move on and live "normal" lives, to strive for "normality." When you look at his websites you find that many of the pages have no follow ups, in fact his band's website has no working links period.

Here's what I see: He is wearing a pink polo shirt with white slacks and polished brown loafers. He is seen only with other men in the video, and is in very close proximity to them.

Here's what I hear: "Fill me with Your love..."
"To enter Heaven there's no back door..."
"Righteous man, get on your knees..."
"There lies no virtue inside of me..."
"Cause Jesus my savior is the only man for me..."

Here's what I deduce: He is a joke. A bad one, but some sort of satirical comedy that is well thought out and executed. He's obtained the desired attraction by the mere fact that we are sitting here talking about him. I have a feeling he wanted gay people to get angry and motivated to do something, and he wanted conservative christians to see the extremisim of their beliefs. I'm certain he wanted the middle of the road people to be disgusted. I think its a satire. A bad and insulting one, but a satire all the same.

[revtj]

"...and they dragged a bitterly sarcastic but creative homosexual to Jesus and said to him, 'Teacher, we caught this man making fun of homosexuality and Christianity. The law of Falwell says we should censor him. What dost thou say?'

And Jesus knelt down and said to the young man, 'Do you think you're funny? Because you're not. Not really.' And then Jesus turned to the crowd and spoke to them.

'Let the one among you who has never laughed at bad camp stun with your taser tongue first.'

And the people held their heads down and turned away and left."


~ Gospel Of the PimpChrist 8:17-20*

*This passage is not included in the earliest manuscripts leading scholars to believe it was a fragment found and added later.

[tpdncr4christ]

its gone. everyone's deleted it...

haha. someone finally does something controversial, ticks people off with satire, and then it gets deleted. It was harsh, but I think its what we need. Anyone know where to find it?

o life

[Daniel]

Bad Camp!

Means a return to Camp!

His punishment will be to spend the whole summer studying the lyrics of Stephen Sondheim starting with Follies, then a post graduate seminar in the Judy Garland TV show, as well as every episode of the Lawrence Welk Show.

[revtj]

Daniel, LOL:lol:

The whole thing sure was strange to me...in this day & age when an "unconfirmed report not verified" can take up 6-8 hours on Fox News (such as the London - France tunnel threat) I'm beginning to see more clearly just what Orwell meant.

So now, will Hillary come out and condemn the fake video as gaybashing in order to warm up to the gay vote? Or will it be McCain?

I am really suspicious of where stuff like that video really came from!

[Joe Brummer]

come on, you all know that satire is this years camp, just like pink was last years black......

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

Here's the scoop!

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2007/01/davies-exposed-as-actor-joel-oglesby.html

Steven Webster

[Daniel]

Oh my!!!! Whatever will we do....? :whistleblower: :hissy:

And the Oscar for.........:award:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Golly....I have to find the right dress to wear.....:aparty: And since I'll be in 6 inch stiletto's for the evening, do you think I could get that cute blond boy in the red shirt in the vid with 'Donnie' to be my walker? :magic:

You have to dress up for Camp!

[NathanATX]

I just brought my "short shorts" to camp... :)

[Jamie McDaniel]

Very interesting. Still not sure what to make of all this.

I did notice Joey's myspace page states he is a 2000 graduate of Baylor University (http://www.equalityride.com/article.php?article_id=276), a Southern Baptist school. Explains his familiarity with conservative christianity and "ministries" trying to convert homosexuals into heterosexuals.

His myspace page also has this as General:

Obsessed with sports, perform alot of sketch comedy and improvisation, the ever changing dynamic of my christianity, politics and the way satire can positively effect the world

Under Movies:

borat (amazing!!!)

And this as Heroes:

...Martin Luther King Jr., the greatest American to ever live.

[revtj]

http://www.southernvoice.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=11101

This just in: if you bet it was a parody you win! However that does not mean the rest of us who took it seriously are losers in any way, we're just vigilant defenders of the flock! :)

[Jamie McDaniel]

From the article you referenced, revtj:


Dan Savage — author, syndicated sex-advice columnist, and editor of the Stranger, a Seattle alternative-weekly newspaper — theorized last week that Davies was serious about his message that “God hates fags” but was using humor to get his message across. Savage said Davies is a shrewd bigot, citing his use double entendre in some of the lyrics to the song and video, as well as thanking gay blogger Andrew Sullivan — who called the performance “brilliant” satire — for backing him when Google removed Davies' video.

“It’s a hoax but Davies — or the man playing him — means every last word,” Savage wrote.

“Davies is trying to be funny — heaven’s ‘back door,’ thanking Andrew Sullivan for ‘getting behind [him],’ kneeling next to the guy at the control board — but he means it when sings ‘God hates a fag.’ He may not be ex-gay (those desperate dudes don’t have a sense of humor about their predicament), but a straight religious bigot with a sense of humor.

“We’re watching this video — all of us secular urban hipsters — because it’s hilarious. Which means that Donnie, through the use of humor, is reaching people that he might not otherwise. And his message is this: Laugh your asses off, sinners, but the bible says a man should not lay with a man … Donnie Davis is engaged in a deadly serious effort — a seriously successful effort — to spread the fundy message about homosexuality (it’s a choice, god hates it) through the intentional use of humor.”

An interesting theory, but Dan Savage is mistaken. Mr. Oglesby is attempting to mock the antigay beliefs that prop-up the ex-gay ministries. Whether he succeeded or failed (due to it being not obvious enough) is the only question that is left.

Well, there is also the question of what he will do next. Is he an activist actor or merely an actor who used this as a one-time vehicle?

[revtj]

It seems like that age old question of life imitating art or art imitating life.

I am really conflicted about this. I love transgressive humor. Dave Chappelle, the African American comedian, for example, is someone who uses humor in a very effective way to expose the fact that we all harbor racial bias to some extent. His "Last Living Racist" comedy sketch, in which he plays a blind Klansman who is an extreme racist, is one of the funniest pieces of humor I have seen in years. And for me it had a redemptive effect.

On the other hand I think this Pastor Donnie needs to speak to the issues to clarify what his intention is...as long as he just drop-kicks this webpiece out there without somehow giving us a means of interpretation, I feel obliged to call it homophobic, even if it appears it may be mocking homophobia for the purpose of humor & insight.

I'm not sure I would've taken Fred Phelps too seriously if I had not found out his intentions were indeed violent homophobia. But even though I still roll my eyes at what I, and a lot of christians, see as pure ignorance, I will not give him a 'pass' just because his ignorance sinks to the level of ridiculous/absurd to me.

[Daniel]

Well, there is also the question of what he will do next. Is he an activist actor or merely an actor who used this as a one-time vehicle?

Apparently, all the world's his stage (Shakespeare). Will be interesting to see what he does next.

[tdogg]

I wasn't able to watch the video, and totally okay with that. But it reminds me of a phrase from Interview with a Vampire - where the 'new' vampires were in Europe watching a live play starring, yes more vampires - the young Claudia says "How avant garde (??) - vampires pretending to be human pretending to be vampires." If we aren't clear enough we could be mistaken for those we struggle against? The web site I visited was definitely not that of an anti-gay person but then if the message is strong enough in the opposite direction, guess that could be mistaken for someone crashing the site and putting in a personal anti-gay message. Anyway, it certainly sounds like camp to me.