Homosexual-or bi & Evangelical: Is it possible?

[cousin.of.zuzu]

I had a mini-ah-ha moment after reading a ton of all of your wise posts in this section, especially in the thread "Is the Bible against homosexuality?" where Revcobb, Andrew, and Daniel have some great stuff to say.

And it was this: Maybe my confusion lately is not at all about how do I read scripture, but rather do I have to trash part of me? Do I have to change faith-wise and "evolve" so to speak? What if evangelical christianity and sexuality never integrate?

I actually even googled: christian evangelical lesbian. I found nothing. No luck. Perhaps such a thing as an evangelical christian gay or lesbian person is about the same as the lock-ness monster.

What say you?

And forgive me if you've already covered this topic before somewhere else.

[Zerbie]

No, I think they are out there. Where there's one, there's always more. People are very complicated and have layers upon layers of depth - things that are important to them, things that may appear contradictory on the surface.

Sorry I can't speak with any specificity. Not being evangelical, or even christian myself, I don't speak from personal experience, but from observation. There are married bisexuals, married gay people, trans people, gay christians, lesbian republicans. . . I am sure there are lesbian evangelicals out there too.

Who knows? Maybe some will post here. ;)

[revcobb]

Trash part of you? Oh, I hope it doesn't come to that! To be truly evangelical means you've experienced good news and are willing to share it. Have you found acceptance, mercy, forgiveness, grace? It sounds like you have. Please don't let yourself get caught in the trap of thinking that evangelical means narrow, rigid, or closed. How far from the message of Jesus would that be?

As for changing and evolving, how could you not? Each experience, each interaction, each new relationship, each challenge met and overcome--these change you. So do your failures and griefs. Your faith, though, isn't shaken unless you lose the ability to trust.

Have you found the Sojourners community online yet? http://www.sojo.net/ (http://www.sojo.net)It's a group of social justice oriented evangelicals. Here's a sample from one article that gets at gay marriage from an evangelical perspective of inclusion:

In 1963, William Stringfellow - movement theologian, Sojourners mentor, and gay man - had the following to say about mainline churches who were pondering whether to join the struggle for African-American civil rights:

The issue here...is not some common spiritual values, nor natural law, nor middle axioms. The issue is baptism. The issue is the unity of all humanity wrought by God in the life and work of Christ. Baptism is the sacrament of that unity of all human life in God.

...
We hear these words anew in the present moment in light of the contemporary public debate over same-sex marriage.
Since, as generally practiced in this country, marriage uniquely intersects church and state, this issue raises the question of equal justice for lesbian and gay persons simultaneously in both spheres. With respect to the state, marriage is a legal contract bearing a whole range of rights and obligations to which gays and lesbians should rightly expect equal access and equal protection. With respect to the church, marriage is a sacramental act, a covenant of grace, a vow of fidelity witnessed before God and community. Gay and lesbian Christians called to marriage need and deserve ecclesial resources of blessing and support to fulfill their commitment.

Many good folk will be tempted by what Stringfellow called "middle axioms," specifically recent attempts to preclude marriage for gays and lesbians while allowing "civil unions." This position stops well short of full civil rights, echoing ominously the old "separate but equal" logic. More important, it hedges on the full inclusion of lesbian and gay Christians in the faith community, limiting their access to pastoral resources and the full sacramental life of the church - not to mention suppressing their gifts and ministries. It is such exclusion that threatens the meaning of our baptism.

Biblically, baptism signals commitment to the discipleship practice of Jesus, including communion and solidarity with "the least," the marginal, and the excluded. It names the one humanity forged in Christ's flesh, where the "dividing wall of hostility" has been broken down, abolishing the "laws and traditions" that have separated us (Ephesians 2:14f). It embodies that new reconciled human community.

The transformative power and practice of baptism suggests that our churches would be leading the way to justice through full inclusion of gay and lesbian people.

-- from an article by Bill Wylie Kellermann and Ched Myers

I expect that even if google doesn't help you find resources for being evangelical and lesbian, others at SF will share plenty.

[Daniel]

I know a lesbian evangelical. She teaches at a blble school. Ok...you ask. Is she out? No. She would probably loose her job in a second. She also lives with another woman- her partner. The community being what it is, they fly under that radar. All things being equal, I know there will come a time when preceptions will change and gals like them will be able to live openly.

Already, I have read- even here- first-hand reports that many in my old church, The Assemblies of God, now accept that gays and lesbians are born that way but shouldn't act on it. That is a far cry from the days of my youth when being gay or lesbian meant that one was full of the devil- no if-and-or-buts-straight-to-hell-you-go-leave-and-never-come-back. It's taken 20 years, the holocaust of AIDS, and one legal battle after another, but the time's really are a-changing.

You may find yourself expanding. I certainly did. But that doesn't mean to have to throw everything out. For me it was more like a matter of re-framing things.

One of the first things on the order of business was dealing with those pesty scriptures and a good deal of thinking about what it meant to be a christian (my own journey led me to consider Christ and his words- and- I must confess- little else). Yes- I did let go of a good deal of what I would consider condemnatory thinking. But then, I don't see that as the provenance of any particular faith. Simply dealing with one's internalized homophobia moves a good deal of the furniture in one's head. Like a maintenance program on a computer, it gets rid of stuff you won't find yourself missing. ;)

[NathanATX]

Here in Austin there is a growing gay evangelical church that is pastored by two women. It's called "Gathering Place Worship Center." The pastors' names are Lee & Yolande.

http://www.gatheringplaceworshipcenter.org/

I grew up evangelical... but many of my beliefs have changed. I am now evangelical about progressive Christianity. I still love praise & worship, I still pray the way I was taught as a kid, etc., but I feel like I have a freedom of thought/belief/faith now that I didn't feel growing up.

[cousin.of.zuzu]

Zerbie, revcobb, Daniel, and NathanATX thank you so much for your comments. Zerbie your line: "People are very complicated and have layers upon layers of depth - things that are important to them, things that may appear contradictory on the surface." That is a great word, thought birthing. revcobb, Daniel, and NathanATX: a good kind of a reality check. No I won't trash part of me but it seems on this particular journey one has to get much better than I currently am with complexity.

Being able to hold the complexity of what it means to be human full of both/and'ss is crucial.

This thread and your thoughts make me wonder anew at the need humans have for taking the complexity out of life. If something doesn't fit we make it invisible. I have some people in my life right now that say ditch faith. Another group of people who would say (if I told them) ditch who you are etc. There are probably a variety of reasons for it. But mostly it's that the capacity to hold contradictory things inside oneself and especially in community is a rare trait. And so making things invisible is the commonly chosen option.

It seems being freaked out by complexity and both/and's is where my line of thought was here. And you all do well at holding complexity it seems. revcobb I shall not trash part of me but keep working on holding complexity. Makes me wonder how people who are good at this get good at it.

O also, I do know about sojourners, but never read about them re: this. I'm a fan of that organization. I also am much more than kind of evangelical. Interesting quote tying all this to baptism. Baptism is both very simple and complex as a sacrament. Hmmm. More to think about. Also thanks for telling me about that church NathanATX

[revcobb]

Faith is at root about trust. To entrust yourself to someone or something is to have faith. At least, that's the simple way of thinking about faith that helps me deal with the complexities.

If faith has to be about affirming a whole long list of propositional truths that can't be proven, that puts faith at odds with the way I experience the world. That kind of faith can only decrease as knowledge increases. I'd like to think that faith grows as knowledge and wisdom grow. That is, the more you figure out, the more you are able to trust both your own judgement and the reality of the world around you.

Okay, that's optimistic, I know. It's optimistic about human nature, believing that we are able to grow in knowledge and wisdom. It's optimistic about the world, believing that it can make sense. But those beliefs are themselves rooted in the essential trustworthiness of God.

So, to be forced to choose between faith and what you are learning about yourself, scripture, and the world, seems wrong. All these growing forms of awareness, knowledge, insight, or whatever you want to call it, work together to build up, not tear down. Hmmm, I guess that's a faith statement, too.

[cousin.of.zuzu]

Well said revcobb. :) There's great spaciousness in that.

[Tinkerbell047]

As a ministers daughter, I've grown up in evangelical churches. My parents have been the pastors and 7 or 8 Spirit Filled, evangelical, nondenominational churches since I was a child. I have grown up in church, God as been a part of my life for as long as I can remember. Can there be gay or lesbian evangelicals? I don't see why not. God can call anyone to do anything He sees fit. If He wants a gay man or lesbian woman to be a preacher then he or she will be if they follow His call.

[cousin.of.zuzu]

Well, it's likely I make things more complicated than they need to be. However, for me this is more complicated or at least has more layers than "following a call". It's more to do with how to integrate thoughts, feelings, beliefs, faith and identity. An ontological tour-de-force.

[Diane Vera]

I actually even googled: christian evangelical lesbian. I found nothing. No luck. Perhaps such a thing as an evangelical christian gay or lesbian person is about the same as the lock-ness monster.

I'm surprised no one here has mentioned it so far, but there does exist a pro-GLBT evangelical Christian organization, Evangelicals Concerned. Below are some relevant websites and pages:

Evangelicals Concerned (http://www.ecinc.org/) - main site
Evangelicals Concerned, Western Region (http://www.ecwr.org/)
Independent Gay Forum article by Paul Varnell (http://www.indegayforum.org/news/show/27107.html)
EC North Carolina (http://www.recnc.org/)
NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/12/us/12evangelical.html?ex=1323579600&en=81fbe5675987f82a&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)
Seattle Weekly article (http://www.seattleweekly.com/2006-06-21/news/gay-evangelicals.php)
E.C. Palm Springs (http://hometown.aol.com/ecpalmsprings/)

More about them can be found by Googling on the following string:

Evangelicals Concerned gay

[bryanf]

I guess the big thing is this, as with almost everything, "what do you mean" by Evangelical?

Are we speaking the sub-culture group? If so, *lol* though we may wish to be a part of it; by default we are left out in the cold.

Are we speaking of the sub-culture ideology? Same answer as above applies here.

Are we speaking of the broader idea that is often accepted as being missionally minded individuals who believe in the saving grace of Christ Jesus through both preached word and action? If so, then yeah no problem we can be evangelicals.

Just all I am saying is that it depends on what context the word is used. I have no problem in saying ideologically I am a gay charismatic evangelical who is in an anglican church. (I mean just right, I am the embodied nightmare of both The Most.Rev. Katharine Jeffers Schori and The Anglican Communion Network, *lol*) Now each of those four words (gay, charismatic, evangelical, and anglican) have to be defined by context to say the least because of the baggage each one carries.

But anyhow. Those are my humblest of opinions.

-B.Ryan.F.

[Diane Vera]

I have no problem in saying ideologically I am a gay charismatic evangelical who is in an anglican church. (I mean just right, I am the embodied nightmare of both The Most.Rev. Katharine Jeffers Schori and The Anglican Communion Network, *lol*)

I'm sorry I don't know quite enough about Episcopal Church politics to get the above joke fully. I can see why you'd be consided the "embodied nightmare" of the Anglican Communion Network, but why would you also be the "embodied nightmare" of The Most.Rev. Katharine Jeffers Schori?

[cousin.of.zuzu]

Diane: Thanks for the links. I also just heard of something recently called the Marin organization. But I haven't found them yet. I think for me evangelical means my denomination which isn't episcopal. I suppose the wikiepedia definition works: "Christian movement for emphasizing personal conversion and the authority of the Bible" Although even within in various evangelical churches how the world authority is defined is tricky.

As a side note....And speaking of links. Ug.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7648730

[Joe Allen]

I am evangelical and consider myself to be somewhat of a classical 1st Century AD Pentecostal. And my sexual orientation is exclusively homosexual.

I am not a "Charismatic" as such since the Charismatic movement started in the 1950s and came to real prominence in the 1960s.

I found out about Evangelicals Concerned, EC, when I was active in Evangelicals Together, ET, when I lived in N. Hollowood in 1991. ET was a LA based group with its main office in West Hollywood back then. ET had no connection with EC except they gave each other support in a limited way.

The Assemblies of God, now accept that gays and lesbians are born that way but shouldn't act on it.

Oh, Daniel, are you saying that the General Council of the Assemblies of God with HQ in Springfield, MO, now officially accepts gays and lesbians as long as they don't have sexual activity?

AG's Official Position Paper on Homosexuality (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_4181_homosexuality.cfm)

From a footnote in the above link:

1 The term homosexuality is frequently used to describe both orientation and behavior. In this paper, homosexual orientation is understood to mean sexual attraction to other members of the same sex. Homosexual behavior is understood to mean participation in same-sex genital acts. Homosexual orientation may pose temptations to lustful thinking and behavior, like heterosexual temptations, that are not necessarily acted upon and that may be resisted and overcome in the power of the Holy Spirit. Only homosexual lust and homosexual behaviors are understood in this study to be sinful.

But, sexual lust occurs when a person thinks about having sexual activity with another person. They are pussy-footing around what real temptation is in regard to a person's sexual orientation.

I don't speak for women here; but, I have done enough academic research in the field of sexual orientation (and done some personal non-scientific surveys talking to men of all sexual orientations) to know that a normal man experiences below the waist, behind the pubic bone, in the area of his prostate physiological sexual attraction (PSA) sensations directed at another live person nearby on occasion and those PSAs are according to the guy's sexual orientation.

One does not even have to be thinking about sex to experience a PSA in the presence of another person nor even thinking about the other person either. Even men who are legally blind get them. One of the reasons that the person has a PSA is that his body is telling him that the person toward whom it is directed would probably be sexually compatible.

One should not consider a PSA a sexual temptation. A PSA IS a sexual behavior.

Every thing that an exclusively heterosexual man does is "heterosexual behavior" even when he is not being sexually active.

Every thing that an exclusively homosexual man does is "homosexual behavior" even when he is not being sexually active.

[nmwolfboy]

I actually even googled: christian evangelical lesbian. I found nothing. No luck. Perhaps such a thing as an evangelical christian gay or lesbian person is about the same as the lock-ness monster.

What say you?

i came across this lately: Born Again Lesbian Ministries (BALM) (http://www.balmministries.net/index.cfm)

i haven't looked at the site much, but heard an interview with Marsha Stevens-Pino, who started the site. For those of you who were into the 'Jesus' movement back in the early 70s, she's the woman who wrote & performed the song "For Those Tears I Died", a song that i recall hearing and singing over & over again as a youngster. She performed with most of the 'biggies' in the evangelical Christian world (Graham, Falwell, etc.) until she came out as a lesbian. She's been characterized as the 'mother of contemporary Christian music' and has also written the theme songs for the MCC General Conferences for years.

So there's definitely Christian evangelical lesbians out there!

-Scott

[bryanf]

I'm sorry I don't know quite enough about Episcopal Church politics to get the above joke fully. I can see why you'd be consided the "embodied nightmare" of the Anglican Communion Network, but why would you also be the "embodied nightmare" of The Most.Rev. Katharine Jeffers Schori?

Oh because ideologically I am in evangelical in believing in a gospel of turning to Jesus. She isn't friendly that ideal at all.

[cousin.of.zuzu]

Thanks! I remember listening to her when I was growing up as well.

i came across this lately: Born Again Lesbian Ministries (BALM) (http://www.balmministries.net/index.cfm)

i haven't looked at the site much, but heard an interview with Marsha Stevens-Pino, who started the site. For those of you who were into the 'Jesus' movement back in the early 70s, she's the woman who wrote & performed the song "For Those Tears I Died", a song that i recall hearing and singing over & over again as a youngster. She performed with most of the 'biggies' in the evangelical Christian world (Graham, Falwell, etc.) until she came out as a lesbian. She's been characterized as the 'mother of contemporary Christian music' and has also written the theme songs for the MCC General Conferences for years.

So there's definitely Christian evangelical lesbians out there!

-Scott

[Diane Vera]

Oh because ideologically I am in evangelical in believing in a gospel of turning to Jesus. She isn't friendly that ideal at all.

What is her objection to the above ideal? What does she have against "turning to Jesus"? It seems a bit odd to me for a Christian of any kind to object to the idea of "turning to Jesus" -- unless, perhaps, you mean something more specific by that phrase. What does "turning to Jesus" mean to you?

And what ideal does she favor instead? How would you briefly describe her theology?

[bryanf]

What is her objection to the above ideal? What does she have against "turning to Jesus"? It seems a bit odd to me for a Christian of any kind to object to the idea of "turning to Jesus" -- unless, perhaps, you mean something more specific by that phrase. What does "turning to Jesus" mean to you?

And what ideal does she favor instead? How would you briefly describe her theology?

From reading her writing she pretty much promotes a unitarian gospel with Jesus at the center of it all. She has in the past and even in recent writings said there are two gospels being preached in the church. One gospel is of turning from a life of wickedness to embrace a holy life. The other gospel, which she advocates is of a Christ who abundant pours out grace to where we are at.

The problem I have here is that I do believe in a gospel of repentance that is filled with grace. And Christ does indeed meet us where we are at. I do believe as we encounter Christ we are ever changed in becoming more like Him in all of his goodness and life. In coming to him I am turning away from that which was the way of death in my life. I do believe in a point of crisis where we come to acknowledge and choose Christ. For some they do this in the altar call and for others we do it at confirmation. The Good Rt. Rev. Katherine generally (though there are times she has been contradictory) advocates an antinominian view of things to say the least.

And yes I do believe the gospel is compatible with us as LGBT, if I didn't I wouldn't live the lifestyle I do embrace. Just dang it being a gay guy and trying to hold moral values in our subculture is really really really a hard thing to do. Sadly, though I am glad I have held on to my beliefs, I am afraid of ending up alone because of believing in moral standards. But thank goodness we have a God who has never called us to singleness. He has called us to live in relationship. We are called to live in relationship with the community and with him. As the Psalms says, "He is My Portion". I am glad that he sustains me in all. He is my comfort and my joy.

[Diane Vera]

In coming to him I am turning away from that which was the way of death in my life.

If this isn't too personal to share here, what are you referring to as having been "the way of death" in your life?

And yes I do believe the gospel is compatible with us as LGBT, if I didn't I wouldn't live the lifestyle I do embrace. Just dang it being a gay guy and trying to hold moral values in our subculture is really really really a hard thing to do. Sadly, though I am glad I have held on to my beliefs, I am afraid of ending up alone because of believing in moral standards.

What specific moral standards are you trying to hold onto, that you feel are difficult to hold onto in our subculture?

[Lydia]

Yep, they exist. Or at least one does, as I've been friends with her for several years. :)

You might also want to ask this question as http://www.gaychristian.net. It has all types of Christians.

[Joe Allen]

Yep, they exist. Or at least one does, as I've been friends with her for several years. :)

You might also want to ask this question as http://www.gaychristian.net. It has all types of Christians.

Lydia's signature line - - The bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 to heterosexuals. This doesn't mean God doesn't love heterosexuals, it's just that they need more supervision - Lynn Lavner


There are all kinds of persons who self-identify as "Christian" or are identified by others as "Christian." No one self-identified as "Christian" in the Bible.

Some folks prefer to follow the traditions of Christian Orthodoxy, the proper theological name for what we now call "Orthodox Christianity." Christian Orthodoxy was started almost 300 years after Jesus began is ministry. And an Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) Emperor founded it and he made his version of "Christian Orthodoxy" the official state religion of the Empire. His new religious denomination took away the authority of the local church's membership and gave it to heads of churches and bishops over churches.

I have accomment about comedian Lynn Lavner's well-know quote. There are literally no admonishments to anyone who could be classified as "homosexual" in the Bible. The same-gender sexual activity that takes place in the Bible has to do with heterosexuals in pagan fertility rituals.

This reminds me of folks accusing homosexuals of committing adultery and their proof-texting scripture to claim that is a sin. But, all of the adultery listed in the Bible is heterosexual only.

[bryanf]

The way of death I guess best way to say is those things that are actions in which we choose to step away from God in. I mean obvious examples of stepping away from good would be murder, malicious gossip, unbriddled and unjust wrath, etc. These things that which are quite grevious. I believe God to be a Good of life, love, and all good things; they actually issue forth from him. As we come closer int relationship with our Lord we begin to resemble him more in the way we live. Our lives become infilled with him which is lilfe.

Wish I had more time to write but just stopping in here for a moment.

[Diane Vera]

The way of death I guess best way to say is those things that are actions in which we choose to step away from God in. I mean obvious examples of stepping away from good would be murder, malicious gossip, unbriddled and unjust wrath, etc. These things that which are quite grevious.

The main thing I was wondering about was your statement that it is "really really really a hard thing" to "hold moral values in our subculture." So, I was wondering which specific moral values you feel are especially difficult to hold within "our subculture." Surely you're not claiming that gays are especially prone to murder, are you?

[bryanf]

No I am not. What I was claiming is that in our subculture we have somethings that are quite difficult to deal with.

For example here in my neck of the woods it is generally considered the norm before a guy and a guy to even go on a date to do a hook-up. Just to see if they are sexually compatible and up to each others standard. In truth that is partly why in this section of rural north carolina many of my friends within two to three years are generally in the triple digits for the number of times they have had random and generally meaningless sex with a stranger. I personally refuse to live that way. For most of the guys I have encountered in the area it generally takes them for a loop that I won't sleep with them on the first date or encounter. <i>Perfect example of this being where as of Friday, and I am still in the aftermath of it, a guy I invited over to watch a movie basically about tried to rape me. He expressed while forcing himself upon me that I should not of invited him over if I was not going to put out. Had it not been that I left the door unlocked and a friend walked in, I don't know what would of happened.</i>

There are so many moral problems in our communities, or atleast the ones i have been around, and sadly theyare often accepted as normal. Whether it be rampant fornication. The acceptability of sleeping with a married straight guy. Etc. Etc. <i> We seem to forget that at our heart we were meant to be a community of love; but so often we are settling for less or even rejecting love by becoming a pool of lust. The idea of finding someone and living with them in pure love that resembles the love of the Trinity & Christ's love to the Church is laughable at best. To often we are coming to settle for a shade of that which was created good instead of that which was good itself. And honestly this is quite sad. Our moral problem stems greatly from this. And this is trully sad since we were suppose to be a people of embracing love.</i>

[nmwolfboy]

From reading her writing she pretty much promotes a unitarian gospel with Jesus at the center of it all. She has in the past and even in recent writings said there are two gospels being preached in the church. One gospel is of turning from a life of wickedness to embrace a holy life. The other gospel, which she advocates is of a Christ who abundant pours out grace to where we are at.

i can't claim to have thoroughly read ++Katharine's writings or listened to every sermon she's given, but from what i have read & heard i've gleaned a slightly different understanding of her view. I understand her idea of two gospels being preached to mean that she believes that repentance/atonement has been proclaimed so much more loudly than has Christ's grace that many who need to hear the good news have grown deaf to the church's voice. I've never heard her deny atonement/repentance, only state that in her pastoral estimation the message of Christ's grace is the one that people are hungering to hear, yet don't to the same extent that they hear "Repent!"

The problem I have here is that I do believe in a gospel of repentance that is filled with grace. And Christ does indeed meet us where we are at. I do believe as we encounter Christ we are ever changed in becoming more like Him in all of his goodness and life. In coming to him I am turning away from that which was the way of death in my life. I do believe in a point of crisis where we come to acknowledge and choose Christ. For some they do this in the altar call and for others we do it at confirmation. The Good Rt. Rev. Katherine generally (though there are times she has been contradictory) advocates an [B}antinominian[/B] view of things to say the least.

Just how does ++Katharine advocate that Christ's grace sets us free from following moral law? She certainly emphasizes social justice issues emphatically at nearly every opportunity, and obviously believes them to be a moral imperative directly in keeping with Christ's message both in His Great Commandment to us and in the example of His life. While i do suspect she believes that Christ's grace sets us free from the Old Covenant, what i've read & heard from her certainly supports that she believes He replaced it with the New Covenant, which doesn't deny moral law. Instead the New redresses the problems inherent in the strict legalism of the Old Covenant.

[Diane Vera]

For example here in my neck of the woods it is generally considered the norm before a guy and a guy to even go on a date to do a hook-up. Just to see if they are sexually compatible and up to each others standard. In truth that is partly why in this section of rural north carolina many of my friends within two to three years are generally in the triple digits for the number of times they have had random and generally meaningless sex with a stranger. I personally refuse to live that way. For most of the guys I have encountered in the area it generally takes them for a loop that I won't sleep with them on the first date or encounter. <i>Perfect example of this being where as of Friday, and I am still in the aftermath of it, a guy I invited over to watch a movie basically about tried to rape me. He expressed while forcing himself upon me that I should not of invited him over if I was not going to put out. Had it not been that I left the door unlocked and a friend walked in, I don't know what would of happened.</i>

I'm very sorry to hear about this episode.

Have you considered trying to start a local social group for gay and bisexual men who don't believe in having sex on the first encounter? Surely you can't be the only one?

The idea of finding someone and living with them in pure love that resembles the love of the Trinity & Christ's love to the Church is laughable at best.

Well, surely there must be at least a few men in your locale who might at least prefer a lower number of sex partners for other reasons, such as health reasons?

[Daniel]

Oh, Daniel, are you saying that the General Council of the Assemblies of God with HQ in Springfield, MO, now officially accepts gays and lesbians as long as they don't have sexual activity?


Hi Joe- Please identify the source- even if it is in the same thread- if you are going to quote someone. That way, the reader can see see the statement in its proper context.

While you have given us the AG offical position here, that was not what I was referring to in the thread you have quoted. I was referring to the general tone of conversation as it has changed in conservative AG churches since the early 80's.

The offical position may not have changed, but my sense is that the rigid view that people once had has softened somewhat. Of course, that's my own observation, nothing more.

[bryanf]

I'm very sorry to hear about this episode.

Have you considered trying to start a local social group for gay and bisexual men who don't believe in having sex on the first encounter? Surely you can't be the only one?


Well, surely there must be at least a few men in your locale who might at least prefer a lower number of sex partners for other reasons, such as health reasons?

I am actually contemplating it once I finish switching jobs. Just right now I am attempting to leave a job that I love. Currently I am working for a faith-based non-profit but since coming to terms in accepting myself as a gay man I have had to remain closeted till I find another job. If it ever comes to the surface that I am gay; well for me that would be instant job termination. It's not that I don't want to be out. Heck I have been rehearsing it in my head for so long. Its just not reasonable at this time till I find a different employer.

Actually my dream would be to launch a faith-based community that is a part of the Emergent conversation. So to speak it would be a fellowship of believers and those interesting in hanging out with a faith-based community. I do hope it happens one day. Knowing and feeling the call to be in ministry but being suppressed because of my sexuality so totally sucks. Not to mention spending 4 yrs in a bible college then 3 yrs in seminary prepping for it too.:)

[Purity]

repentence is the cure

[Zerbie]

I am actually contemplating it once I finish switching jobs. Just right now I am attempting to leave a job that I love. Currently I am working for a faith-based non-profit but since coming to terms in accepting myself as a gay man I have had to remain closeted till I find another job. If it ever comes to the surface that I am gay; well for me that would be instant job termination. It's not that I don't want to be out. Heck I have been rehearsing it in my head for so long. Its just not reasonable at this time till I find a different employer.

Actually my dream would be to launch a faith-based community that is a part of the Emergent conversation. So to speak it would be a fellowship of believers and those interesting in hanging out with a faith-based community. I do hope it happens one day. Knowing and feeling the call to be in ministry but being suppressed because of my sexuality so totally sucks. Not to mention spending 4 yrs in a bible college then 3 yrs in seminary prepping for it too.:)

These are wonderful goals, and with your experience, you are perfectly positioned to use your talents for the betterment of your community.

Best of luck finding a more accepting employer. You have a lot on your plate right now, but it sounds like you are right on track.

Sorry to hear about the rat you ran into on the weekend. Not everyone is like that. There are some real gems out there; in the meantime, you don't have to kiss every frog, so keep holding to your standards.

[u-dog]

repentence is the cure

What? repentence is the cure for what? (as if I didn't know)

[Daniel]

Actually my dream would be to launch a faith-based community that is a part of the Emergent conversation. So to speak it would be a fellowship of believers and those interesting in hanging out with a faith-based community. I do hope it happens one day. Knowing and feeling the call to be in ministry but being suppressed because of my sexuality so totally sucks. Not to mention spending 4 yrs in a bible college then 3 yrs in seminary prepping for it too.:)

I like your dream, and don't see any reason you can't make this happen. But you need more than hope. How about a plan? As in a business plan? A five year plan with short and long term goals- with some steps to get get started. You know- a competent career/business counselor (we're talking practical stuff here) can be very helpful. I think you will find that once you start 'putting it out there' that you will find youself in situations- and talking to people- who will help you realize your goal.

Sorry to hear about your negative dating experiences! That's a drag. But Zerbie is right- there are some real gems out there. I know, I married one. Don't give up. And don't forget to listen to your gut- and your heart- in these matters. This is what a wise counselor told me do long ago- and I found it very helpful. What she said was this: "When you are dating someone, if you pay attention to the feeling you have in your chest and in your gut you will know if this person is the right person. Is it a peaceful, loving feeling?" But the problem is, we start interacting and stop paying attention to how the energy is flowing. All that talk and visual stimulus can distract (get off track) us from what is really happening.

And if I may: don't invite guys into your home until you are sure about them- no first meetings there. Do that in a public space. Yes- spending money is an issue- I know that. But you will cut down on the weird vibes right away this way.


Blessings to you.

[Joe Allen]

No I am not. What I was claiming is that in our subculture we have somethings that are quite difficult to deal with.

For example here in my neck of the woods it is generally considered the norm before a guy and a guy to even go on a date to do a hook-up. Just to see if they are sexually compatible and up to each others standard. In truth that is partly why in this section of rural north carolina many of my friends within two to three years are generally in the triple digits for the number of times they have had random and generally meaningless sex with a stranger. I personally refuse to live that way. For most of the guys I have encountered in the area it generally takes them for a loop that I won't sleep with them on the first date or encounter. Perfect example of this being where as of Friday, and I am still in the aftermath of it, a guy I invited over to watch a movie basically about tried to rape me. He expressed while forcing himself upon me that I should not of invited him over if I was not going to put out. Had it not been that I left the door unlocked and a friend walked in, I don't know what would of happened.

I went on a first date with Ed AFTER I had gone home with him from the Rawhide Club in N. Hollywood the night he introduced himself to me. I wasn't doing any bed-hopping when I met him. I had only been out of the closet a month and been out of Oklahoma only that long too at the time.

If I had not gone home with Ed at 2 am on the night of April 14, 1984, maybe I would never have ended up being his partner/husband for almost 7 years. Of course, the situation was kind of unique for me. I was staying in Hollywood with a friend from Oral Roberts University and Ed came down and took me out on a date several days after I met him. I moved in with him on April 14.

The rural guys where you are, Bryan, are apparently ignorant about being real friends.

There are so many moral problems in our communities, or atleast the ones i have been around, and sadly theyare often accepted as normal. Whether it be rampant fornication. The acceptability of sleeping with a married straight guy. Etc. Etc. We seem to forget that at our heart we were meant to be a community of love; but so often we are settling for less or even rejecting love by becoming a pool of lust. The idea of finding someone and living with them in pure love that resembles the love of the Trinity & Christ's love to the Church is laughable at best. To often we are coming to settle for a shade of that which was created good instead of that which was good itself. And honestly this is quite sad. Our moral problem stems greatly from this. And this is trully sad since we were suppose to be a people of embracing love.

"Fornication" is an odd word when used as a translation of the Greek Word in the Bible's original language. And since it is the translation of "porneia," which literally means to to "have sex with (female) prostitutes," it becomes even more awkward. Some Bible translations have "sexual immorality" as the translation of "porneia." Fornication is from the Latin word, "fornix." A fornix was a vaulted arch in sub-basements in the city of Rome which supported above ground buildings. Female prostitutes took their customers down there when it became illegal to be a prostitute in Rome. The Roman Catacombs were the sub-basements of Roman building.

The only married guys I have literally slept with were separated from their wives and not divorced. But, it was not a case of merely wanting to have sex with them. I willl probably get flamed for this with some hateful replies; but, I have this rule: Since anyone who comes into my home as my guest to visit already knows I am openly gay and they choose to sleep in my bed with me when there is another bed, besides the full-length sofa, available, there is going to be some intimacy in my bed after the lights are turned off. It might lead to more than just snuggling, too.

There is a big difference between letting a person take advantage of you sexually and mutually sharing physical intimacy.

[Joe Allen]

Hi Joe- Please identify the source- even if it is in the same thread- if you are going to quote someone. That way, the reader can see see the statement in its proper context.

RULES, RULES, RULES! it was from your own posting!

I know a lesbian evangelical. She teaches at a blble school. Ok...you ask. Is she out? No. She would probably loose her job in a second. She also lives with another woman- her partner. The community being what it is, they fly under that radar. All things being equal, I know there will come a time when preceptions will change and gals like them will be able to live openly.

Already, I have read- even here- first-hand reports that many in my old church, The Assemblies of God, now accept that gays and lesbians are born that way but shouldn't act on it. That is a far cry from the days of my youth when being gay or lesbian meant that one was full of the devil- no if-and-or-buts-straight-to-hell-you-go-leave-and-never-come-back. It's taken 20 years, the holocaust of AIDS, and one legal battle after another, but the time's really are a-changing.

You may find yourself expanding. I certainly did. But that doesn't mean to have to throw everything out. For me it was more like a matter of re-framing things.

One of the first things on the order of business was dealing with those pesty scriptures and a good deal of thinking about what it meant to be a christian (my own journey led me to consider Christ and his words- and- I must confess- little else). Yes- I did let go of a good deal of what I would consider condemnatory thinking. But then, I don't see that as the provenance of any particular faith. Simply dealing with one's internalized homophobia moves a good deal of the furniture in one's head. Like a maintenance program on a computer, it gets rid of stuff you won't find yourself missing. ;)

While you have given us the AG offical position here, that was not what I was referring to in the thread you have quoted. I was referring to the general tone of conversation as it has changed in conservative AG churches since the early 80's.

The offical position may not have changed, but my sense is that the rigid view that people once had has softened somewhat. Of course, that's my own observation, nothing more.

But, you did not say it was what was practiced or believed in conservative AGs. Since the Greek Text Bible word for "church" and the Greek Text Bible word for "assembly" is the very same word, Assembly of God church is somewhat redundant. I haven't heard of a truly conservative Assembly of God changing their opinion the slightest bit about homosexuals.

But, some of the more progressive and moderate Assemblies of God not only believe that God makes homosexuals that way, they also accept homosexuals as equal believers in Jesus the Christ, too. My long time friend, Phil Taylor, who is the pastor of Tulsa's Carbondale Assembly of God, never considered me to be living in sin when I outed myself to him by regular USPS mail in the spring 1990. When I was on vacation in Tulsa in July that year, I had lunch with him and since he knew that my partner/husband, Ed Pursell, had HIV and I didn't, he asked me, "If Ed is diagnosed with AIDS, will you leave him?" I told him there was no way that I would leave Ed and I proved it to Phil for the last 5 months of Ed's life.

Since Ed had decided to be buried in Alabama and one of his sister's was paying for all of the local in L.A., CA and Athens, AL funeral related burial expenses and I was drawing unemployment, I called Phil during the last week of Ed's life in February '91 and asked if were possible that his church could help me get to Ed's funeral in Alabama. He said he would see what he could do after I gave him an estimate of what I needed and then when he called me back, he told me that I could go to a Western Union outlet to pick up the money. Well, I was suprised that he had the church's treasurer send a whole lot more when I went to pick up the money. I told the cashier what the amount was supposed to be and who was sending it and when he looked at the computer he turned and grinning at me he said, "Oh, it's a lot more than that."

In the spring of 1994, when the Names Project had a display in Tulsa's Assembly Center, on a Saturday, Phil and another church member went to see the AIDS Quilts which were from Oklahoma and mostly from the Tulsa Metro Area. My mother gave me a tape of the Sunday Service which took place the next day. In his sermon that day, Phil mentioned seeing the Quilt display and said that he recognized several of the names, some he had gone to school with and some he had ministered to after they got AIDS. He said that several members of Carbondale had family who were gay. (While he did not name names, one of his pastoral staff members had an openly gay son and that son is also a Christian.)

[bryanf]

I like your dream, and don't see any reason you can't make this happen. But you need more than hope. How about a plan? As in a business plan? A five year plan with short and long term goals- with some steps to get get started. You know- a competent career/business counselor (we're talking practical stuff here) can be very helpful. I think you will find that once you start 'putting it out there' that you will find youself in situations- and talking to people- who will help you realize your goal.


In launching what I hope to turn into a faith-based community this is my current plan. Right now I am courting other individuals who are displaced from church in general and somewhat friendly to or are glbt and displaced. I am as soon as I find a new employer; I am going to begin looking to move to a new residency where I can either host small weekly get togethers or a place that offers a meeting room for the residents. Basically follow some community patterns I have participated in before. If we reach 30 in number, I will most likely seek to sponsor the formation of another community.

I have been participating in church plants before and after I became a Christian. They are basically 2nd nature to me. Just I am thinking of planting fairly non-traditional christian communities. The main reason I plan on having employment is to enable me to sponsor and sustain myself as I with the Lord's help birth and foster a community.

Anyhow I do have the development stages fairly planned out.

Anyhow thanks for the encouragement.

[bryanf]

"Fornication" is an odd word when used as a translation of the Greek Word in the Bible's original language. And since it is the translation of "porneia," which literally means to to "have sex with (female) prostitutes," it becomes even more awkward. Some Bible translations have "sexual immorality" as the translation of "porneia." Fornication is from the Latin word, "fornix." A fornix was a vaulted arch in sub-basements in the city of Rome which supported above ground buildings. Female prostitutes took their customers down there when it became illegal to be a prostitute in Rome. The Roman Catacombs were the sub-basements of Roman building.

I was primarily speaking of how the word and conception around fornication is used today. However I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of "porneia". If we primarily take proneia outside of the New Testament context it is generally referenced to some degree of an 'unsanctioned sexual conduct'. Or well sex that is not appropriate. Now Septuagent, New Testament, and general classical context then you can about derive to three maybe four primary categories. That of unchastity (particularly that which produces an illigitimate child), unlawful sex (whether it be a moral code law or a legal law), adultery (though I have hesistancy about classifying "porneia" in this category but it has a strong tradition though of it being as such a classification), and sex occuring in a cultic/state atmosphere (e.g., autumn festival in Ephesus during the time of Christ).

Anyhow I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the word fornication. If you would like, we could start another thread and discuss i with each other.

[Pablo Rafael]

And yes I do believe the gospel is compatible with us as LGBT, if I didn't I wouldn't live the lifestyle I do embrace. Just dang it being a gay guy and trying to hold moral values in our subculture is really really really a hard thing to do.

bryanf,

Am I understanding your use of the word "subculture" correctly? (People have accused me of not being the sharpest knife in the drawer; that could be the case here again.) I think of the "gay subculture" as a group of flamboyant people that believe in discarding all moral values, engaging in limitless sexual activity with multiple partners and encouraging a spirit freedom without responsibility. This segment of the population is the most outspoken group of gays and is the segment that the Christian right and the media focus on as being symbolic of all LGBT individuals.

Neither I nor hardly any of the gays that I know fit into that stereotype. I am boringly mainstream in my life. I am a teacher. I own a house. I like snowshoeing, mountain biking, hiking, gardening. I go to mass every week. I believe in sex within marriage. (Marriage I believe is a committment made by two people to spend their lived together.) Most LGBT individuals that I know are also basically in this group. (A large number are also teachers.) My brother and his "husband" have been together in a loving committed "marriage" for years. He sets a very good example for me. I strongly believe that we are saved by grace through faith, and that God shows His love to us through the Christ.

I'm not saying I am better than anyone else. Nor is my opinion of more value than anyone else's. I have fallen short of my own ideal many times and continue to have difficulties along the way. My point is that I am Christian. (My Lutheran and Catholic upbringing steer my away from the term "evangelical".) I am gay. But I am not a part of the "gay subculture" as I see it often portrayed. I keep away from that ideology because it does not fit in with the values that are important to me.

I am not stating this very well. The book A PLace at the Table by Bruce Bawer is about this very topic, and he states it much better than I.
(It's an excellent book, and used copies are cheap on Amazon). I believe that the more people realize that most gays are ordinary, hard working, loving, decent people, the less discrimination we will face.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Purity]

Underdog- lust

[Daniel]

RULES, RULES, RULES! it was from your own posting!

I knew that Joe. I'm not stupid.

What you missed was the obvious (maybe not to you though) point that correctly copying text from a post enables the reader to go back to the original location. If you ever return to this forum (I understand you have left for parts unknown) you want to learn how to do this. It's a small thing to ask, but it does show that one is actually taking the time to think about another's words and not merely using them as a launching pad of one's own.


And speaking of small things, hello Mr. Purity. The brevity and tone of your your posts leave much to be desired.

[u-dog]

actually, repentence is the cure for sin. The cure for lust is an appropriate partner who both ignites and extinguishes it.

[scott snedeker]

Underdog- lust:eek: :eek:

337 "You Boys and girls just behave atrociously"

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



Purity,

If you are joking, its pretty funny.

If you are not it's ribaldly hilarious!:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm a pagan! Lust is how I make my closest connection to my inner being! [the spirit of a satyr]338

For me you have it backward.

"Lady Godiva was a freedom rider!
She didn't care if the whole world looked!

Joan of Arc with the Lord to guide her!
She was a sister who really cooked!

Isadora was the first Bra burner!
And you're glad she showed up!

And when the country was falling apart
the religious right got it all sewed up!

But then there's LUST!
Oh yeah there's LUST!
Too much LUST!
Stay away from me LUST!

And then more LUST!
That abominable LUST!
And then There's........
Fantasizin', womanizin', sodomizin', bisexualizin', anything but prostelatizin'

Right on LUST!

[BruceChris]

But only in a committed relationship, and only with someone of the gender you're attracted to.

And Scott, I just thought the picture meant you have very hairy legs, but I liked you anyway.

P&L, BC

[scott snedeker]

clop clop!:D

[Diane Vera]

bryanf,

Am I understanding your use of the word "subculture" correctly? (People have accused me of not being the sharpest knife in the drawer; that could be the case here again.) I think of the "gay subculture" as a group of flamboyant people that believe in discarding all moral values, engaging in limitless sexual activity with multiple partners and encouraging a spirit freedom without responsibility. This segment of the population is the most outspoken group of gays and is the segment that the Christian right and the media focus on as being symbolic of all LGBT individuals.

As far as I am concerned, the "gay subculture" consists of everyone who frequents any kind of organization or institution, whether nonprofit or commercial, that pertains to gays. Thus, for example, Soulforce is a part of the gay subculture, and so is everyone who posts regularly on this message board.

The gay subculture is very diverse and includes both the flamboyant folks you've mentioned and many other, not-so-flamboyant folks.

[scott snedeker]

surely you don't consider me flamboyant.:eek:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Purity]

actually, repentence is the cure for sin. The cure for lust is an appropriate partner who both ignites and extinguishes it.

not so, i say physical love is different from lust.

[Zerbie]

not so, i say physical love is different from lust.

Then, so that we're not all talking at cross-purposes with different definitions of the same word, how are you defining the word "lust?"

How do you define "physical love?"

And what are the differences (and any similarities) between them?

[scott snedeker]

not so, i say physical love is different from lust.
Purity,

Are you going Twin Peaks on us?

Are we to to wait for the dwarf? Or the Giant?

Which part of Laura Palmer's diary are you referring to?

[Purity]

it's all in the attitude. check 1 corinthians 13

[tdogg]

I absolutely enjoy lusting after the love of my life.... :agree:

But ssshhhhhhh...don't tell anyone.....she's a girl! :eek:

There's nothing wrong with a little well-placed lust.... ;)

[u-dog]

Paul speaks of love using a vocabulary familiar to the mind, heart, and spirit and no one has succeeded in articulating it any better than he has done. However, a body speaks a language made up of curves, angles, textures, flavors, smells, temperatures... and of anticipation, hunger, and longing.

I agree that its always best when a person's body takes his/her spirit, mind, and heart along for the ride. And if THEY bring their 1 corinthians 13 convictions with them... so much the better, but 1 Corinthians 13 is no substitute for lust any more than lust is a substitute for 1 Corinthians 13 love.

[Purity]

edited by keltic