Please Explain Biblical Evidence of "Witnessing"

[Joe Brummer]

I have been rather taken back by some Christians' attempts to "convert" me or "Save me" to their way of believing in God. I use to find it just annoying, later in my life I became offended by their disrespect of my beliefs while expecting I listen to theirs if not adopt them. Lately, in my attempts to understand and be more compassionate of such things, I was wondering if someone could explain to me the biblical evidence or support of this practice.

I don't think I will ever "not" find it offensive that someone will completely assume I am "lost", "living in the dark" or a "reprobate" because I believe in something other than they do. I also don't think I will ever be able to show those stuck in that sort of mindframe how dangerous that thinking is when we see what "my god is bigger than your god" thinking has done to the world.

Whose got an answer that will make this make sense to me?

[tpdncr4christ]

I don't have a good definition of your "witnessing" but something you said made me laugh:

I don't think I will ever "not" find it offensive that someone will completely assume I am "lost", "living in the dark" or a "reprobate" because I believe in something other than they do.

I just had this image of the Key Stone Cops running around in a small room running into things looking for the light switch. When they flip the switch and the lift comes on there's a blind guy sitting in the corner drinking tea. Just sitting... I don't know... it seemed funny at the time...

its like doodle's club houses.

[Emproph]

I just had this image of the Key Stone Cops running around in a small room running into things looking for the light switch. When they flip the switch and the lift comes on there's a blind guy sitting in the corner drinking tea.....Who then remarked “Well whada ya know, I’m not blind after all.”
~~
I have been rather taken back by some Christians' attempts to "convert" me or "Save me" to their way of believing in God. I use to find it just annoying, later in my life I became offended by their disrespect of my beliefs while expecting I listen to theirs if not adopt them. Lately, in my attempts to understand and be more compassionate of such things, I was wondering if someone could explain to me the biblical evidence or support of this practice.

I don't think I will ever "not" find it offensive that someone will completely assume I am "lost", "living in the dark" or a "reprobate" because I believe in something other than they do. I also don't think I will ever be able to show those stuck in that sort of mindframe how dangerous that thinking is when we see what "my god is bigger than your god" thinking has done to the world.

Whose got an answer that will make this make sense to me?
I didn’t really understand the concept myself until relatively recently. Finally I just figured out that it’s exactly as the word suggests. “Witnessing” should be no more than explaining your own personal experience of God/Jesus etc. It should be meant to convince, NOT to convert.

But I think a lot of Christians confuse witnessing with proselytizing. Some may not have had a personal experience with God/Jesus and so only have their ‘belief’ in the Bible to go on and the testimony of those they know who may have experienced God in some way. And many of those that feel they’ve had a direct experience with God/Jesus often then equate that personal experience – which they are convinced is true – with the Bible being 100% true. A distinction is no longer made between the personal experience and the belief in the Bible.

The personal experience is first hand direct information, it’s been “witnessed.” The belief in the “truth” of the Bible is just that, belief. If you share what you’ve “seen,” then you’re witnessing, because you can explain the ‘why, how, when, what’ of it – you were there. If you share what you believe or assume to be true and expect the same result, then you’re proselytizing.

You’re pretty good with people like that, so if you can articulate to them that distinction, and that you’re more interested in their own personal experience as opposed to, or in relation to what they believe, in my experience they’re usually open about it.

Many of those I’ve tried to pin down have ended up saying that if the Bible isn’t true then what’s the point of believing in Christianity? So I think that’s how many of them feel. I have to say though, when it gets to that point of honesty, it’s the closest I feel as far as relating to them goes.

My fundamentalist brother had a vision which led him to immerse himself fully into the Assemblies of God church scene. As far as I’m concerned, that’s all the witness he has to offer. Unfortunately he equates the certainty that comes with an experience like that with the delusion of certainty of Biblical inerrancy. Remember, many of them spend much time with their own kind so they’re continually reinforcing with each other the idea that belief of truth is equal to certainty of truth, and thus they lose sight of the distinction.

I’ve rambled enough. Does that help any or did I just confuse you more? And for the record, I have my own witness testimony, so I’m speaking from first hand experience as well and not just pontificating about “them.”

IMO, witnessing should be sharing a personal story, motivated only by the desire to share the redeeming effects of its experience. There would be the desire to convince, but never the expection of convincing. The communication of the experience of Love is paramount.

[scott snedeker]

being a pagan I get a great deal of "witnessing"

I try to look at it from their perspective with a similar experience of my own.

The first time I experienced Reiki Healing Through a meditation circle I had a euphoria that lasted two days. I felt as if I were in the afterglow following orgasm for 48 hours!!! This was my first "spiritual experience." What I interpret this to be is my reconnection to unconditional love with release of self judgement. But it felt so wonderful I just had to tell everyone! I wanted to share the feeling with others. I also get the same from lovemaking with my lovers (sex is very spiritual for me--very pagan indeed!). And I reaffirm my entitlement to joy every day I can with meditation and thought focus through my study of Abraham.

So when someone witnesses to me it is usually sharing of their similar experience. The difference is many christians connect with unconditional love through devotion to Christ.
So I smile because I know the wonderful experience they are trying to share and agree with them by saying . "Isn't unconditional love wonderful!" If they persist in trying to convert me, I explain ; "Devotion is your path to unconditional love, It's written all over you, but it is not my path. I must follow my own. God did not intend me to follow yours or I would have made the connection to unconditional love through devotion long ago."

I then smile and tell them again. "Connection to unconditional is the best isn't it!" It usually ends with a mutual shared gratitude for the ability to connect. If they persist then I hold up my hand and say "enough sweetie! let's talk about something else!"

Love and affirmation,

Scotty:cowboy:




i

[scott snedeker]

love the keystone cop gag!

[andrewlittle]

Several passages in scripture call us to share our faith - "sharing" can take on various meanings, however. One for example is, "I pray that you may be active in sharing your faith." -- Philemon 1:6

Invariably, except for the Great Commission, these were messages to specific individuals and contained within writings that dealt with other issues.

The Great Commission David talked about above has become the central focus of a great many churches, although its actually Matthew 28:19-20. They even identify themselves as Great Commission churches. Converting people is their goal and their function - period. Some see "witnessing" almost as of some kind of pyramid scheme - it seems they feel that the more people they convert the better chance they get of going to heaven.

Many, if not most, of these churches don't read the Great Commission in light of the Greatest Commandment, which comes earlier in Matthew 25. We are called do you to the latter while keeping in mind that we are to love God (first) and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Another concern is that primarily they do not convince people without faith to embrace God, they cannibalize people of other churches. One pattern is hard to ignore - the number of church-goers is shrinking. If Great Commission churches are about converting to faith in God, and the were growing (which many are), this pattern would be the opposite. The point of these churches, however, is to convert people to their way of thinking. They are the focus - not God.

Personal testimony is good IF, and only IF, it points to and glorifies God. But, more often than not it serves to glorify a particular church, theology, type of Christian, etc. A good article on progressive evangelizing can be found at http://www.covenantnetwork.org/sermon&papers/guthrie.html.

I think liberal and progressive Christians have allowed certain strains of conservative Christianity to co-opt the language of evangelism. We can also testify to the greatness of God, the love of God, the justice of God, etc., so long as we keep witnessing to God and not ourselves.

One problem is that this kind of testimony doesn't work as well as the advertising of the other kind - the Great Commission witnessing invariably points to physical manifestations of worldly success (massive churches, "inspiring" worship, wonderful music, wide assortment of programs, etc.).

How do we point to the grace and glory of God without the full color, glossy, brochures that only serve to represent God in terms of material success? The only thing I keep coming back to is by testifying with our actions and love that are precipitated by our faith in God.

Admittedly I'm just one person, but I would approach Joe Brummer by acting in respect, kindness and love. If Joe Brummer then asked me why I did this, I would share my story with him in a way that gives God the glory. If Joe Brummer did not ask, I would simply continue to respect, love and show kindness to him, anyway. That's what my faith in God calls me to do. To me, that's evangelizing about God, and avoiding the temptation to evangelize about my own greatness.

Now, if I happened to be around Joe Brummer when someone decided to evangelize him about the greatness of their church, their theology, their building, their social norms or their whatever, by beating him about the head and shoulders with a Bible, I would be in a moral dilemma. Because if I really respected and loved Joe Brummer, I might have to help him beat those proselytizers to a bloody pulp. Damn, I hate ethical conundrums.

[Edit] Oops, I'm sorry. I keep forgetting that this forum is about Faith and Non-Violence, not Faith or Non-violence. Sorry about the "bloody pulp" thing - I'm still a bit of a heathen.

[Joe Brummer]

Here is the example of what I hear.....you tell me what my response to this should be (nonviolence in heart)

Speaking the Truth divides Light from Darkness, G*D from satan, Righteousness from unrighteousness. Truth is NOT the divider, it merelr reveals that which is there!
If I know the bridge over a chasm is out, and you are driving toward it, what kind of person would I be if I didn't step into the road, wave my arms, shout, scream, pound on your hood and tell you the bridge is out?
Well, Rob, Mark and G*D are telling you the bridge is out! And you are so deceived by satan that you call them hateful! You are confused and do not know what love really IS!
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

It seems they feel a sense of obligation to save the "sinner" but in that process have no regard or respect for my beliefs. I find it insulting, but I am trying to go past the insults of my beliefs to engage, and understand.

[Zerbie]

I guess in that very specific case, Joe, I would tell them they may rest easy as they've done their job, and their job is over. Okay. The bridge is out. I hear you. I choose to proceed anyway. If something happens to me, it's MY responsibility, not yours.
And just move on.

No point arguing whether there really is a bridge, or if it's out or not. They are certain a bridge is out, now they've "warned" you, you heard and understood them and have chosen to proceed; they have no more work to do with regard to your driving towards the bridge.

[tpdncr4christ]

Talking about your Good Christian witnessing...

I don't know if anyone has ever even heard of it, but there is a book written by Julie Andrews called "The Last of the Really Great Whangdoodles." Apart from having the best title ever, the story has a scene where the three children and the professor have to cross this bridge to get across the chasm to get to the palace (i know its weird). On the way up to the bridge lots of things were telling the children and the professor that the bridge was out... When they got up there, the professor didn't see the bridge, but the children did. Eventually the professor had to ignore his warnings and have faith the children were right, without having proof. They got across the bridge and met the whangdoodle and so on and whats forth...

But my point was, that though these people might think the bridge is out, it could still very well be there. You could see stuff they don't see. They should warn you, they should let you know they don't see a bridge, but you should check it out for yourself. And if you see said bridge, its your job to go back and find them, and lead them across. Don't force them, just let them know you see a bridge. That is witnessing... or at least, what it should be.

[Joe Brummer]

A brillant response, and one that makes sense to me for a change.

[tpdncr4christ]

glad to be of service sir.

and one more thing, the reason the children saw the bridge and the professor didn't: they were children. ;) :p

[Joanne Chapman]

I have been rather taken back by some Christians' attempts to "convert" me or "Save me" to their way of believing in God. I use to find it just annoying, later in my life I became offended by their disrespect of my beliefs while expecting I listen to theirs if not adopt them. Lately, in my attempts to understand and be more compassionate of such things, I was wondering if someone could explain to me the biblical evidence or support of this practice.

I don't think I will ever "not" find it offensive that someone will completely assume I am "lost", "living in the dark" or a "reprobate" because I believe in something other than they do. I also don't think I will ever be able to show those stuck in that sort of mindframe how dangerous that thinking is when we see what "my god is bigger than your god" thinking has done to the world.

Whose got an answer that will make this make sense to me?


IMO witnessing is not about words (although in some circumstances if invited it can be). Christ's sermon on the mount gives us an example to live by (Matt. 5-7.) And the Book of Alcoholics Anonymous gives us the 12 steps to live by. We have the blueprint on how to...what we need to IMO is just do... :)

There is nothing more infuriating to me than a holier-than-thou evangelical. I seldom allow myself the time to get caught up in their debate...it's not worth it. We just don't share the same values.

I also do not limit my self to Christian understanding but find great value in the Eastern Religions, Wicca and Native American Spiritualism. IMO we limit God when we try to keep the creator of all things in the God box that belongs only to Christianity. And yes, I am a Christian...but a very liberal, all inclusive kind of believer.

I like the old saying...to "witness often, if necessary use words." Talking the talk never compares to walking the walk. That's where the rubber meets the road.

Joanne

[Joe Brummer]

Here is a question I posted formulated from some of your thoughts....

To: THe Merry Widow, Mark and Robert,

Help me to understand this approach you bring to the table. You want to "save me" from the crash and burn, but in the process pay no respect to my current beliefs in God, the World or my personal spirituality. You also tend to expect that your "truth" is somehow above mine. THat what I believe about God is wrong or about "me" rather than God, but the reality is you don't really know that about me or my beliefs.

So why would you deem my beliefs as inferior to yours just because I don't believe in what you believe? Rather than just sharing your beliefs and listening and respecting others beliefs, you just deem mine as reprobate or evil or the way of Satan. Forgive me if I am insulted, but my beliefs are not inferior to yours, nor are your beliefs more in tune to God.

If you want to witness to me, I am willing to listen, if you are just interested in belittling my beliefs as wrong and evil, than I think you my have a poor approach at bringing god to anyone.

Jesus says, "Go into the world and make disciples of all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit". He did not say belittle them, call them evil, call the spawns of satan. And maybe they isn't what you say, but it is certainly what those of us who interact with you hear.

So, I ask....Help me understand this approach of yours. Help me see where you are coming from with this constant barrage of mean spirited things disguised as love. Help me understand how you are surpirse when you insult others beliefs yet demand we respect yours? Because I am pretty puzzled at where you are coming from?

1/29/2007 7:16 PM

Here is the reply....notice how bitter this is...I feel sorry for anyone this bitter....

Mr. Joe Brummer,
I have published YOUR cry for God's truth, God's wisdom, and YOUR plea for help in understanding Christ. Are you happy now? I suggest you sit down boy, what I am about to say will indeed hurt your feelings.

I do not speak for Rob or tmw or anyone else that comments here.

You Joe, are a work of worldly art. That's not a good thing btw. The kind of art that sucks up those around you and shits them out. You are a classic example of one who would recieve the pearls of God and shit them out for a world to witness. You would eat up God's word like the blood soaked raw meat of hell and curse the messenger / cook all in one breath. You're insincere.

I am not Stacy Harp, God bless her, but I will not hug you with words. Why? because I know your quest is not sincere, nor are the questions you ask. Your so called unanswered questions are already set hard, fast, and in unfixed terms in your mind. You truly do not seek God's word. That's as transparent as glass. You seek your own selfish desires and hope your little humble request here will entice a 'bite'.

My suggestion, find another blog to be saved on. Your salvation is dependent on No man Joe! That includes your idols Ghandi etc..or mankind for that matter.

You want to get serious? you know how to reach me for a private talk. My guess, you don't have the balls to confront me, and I will not waste my blog space pandering to a silly boy fishing for another buddy in hell's palace.

Your sorry ass remains in my prayers.

All opinions, ideas, religions, ideas, thoughts, acts, etc..are not of equal value. Everything must be held up to the word of God before anyone can say it is good and right.

1/29/2007 11:12 PM

and we wonder why we have wars....

[andrewlittle]

That's the way to win converts to Christ, eh? Evidently, Joe, it's not your language you're going to hell for, unless of course this guy's driving the f%$#@$^ train.

Good reasonable questions that you asked - possibly a little attitude showing, but good and reasonable nonetheless.

The answers were -wait a minute - there were no answers. That's the problem, Joe, you asked questions. How dare you question this guy's psychopathic faith? Ignorant free thinker that you are, you evidently hit a raw nerve when he couldn't come up with any reasonable answers. Reasonable hell, he couldn't come up with any.

What website was this, pray tell. I could use a good free-for-all with some self-righteous, foul-mouthed, closed minded, hateful, ignorant pseudoChristian.

And, BTW, I agree with him on one thing. You, Joe, are indeed one fine piece of art.

I'd love to put those posts side by side in a frame, with a poll next to it asking, "which of these guys is on a fast track to hell?" I think most people (and I wouldn't give a crappe what their orientation would be) would say that you'd be passing this SOB on the track heading the other direction.

[Whispering] And remember what I said earlier, Joe, this would be the guy. He'd look good in blood red.

[Zerbie]

Does this guy ever read his own words? I have no idea who he is, but it's crystal clear he is describing himself, not Joe.

[frankandcathy]

I was SHOCKED and appalled to read this "response." :eek: :eek:

I personally call this a religious spirit. (Yeah, yeah flaky charismatic here).

Religion tries to "do what's right" in order to "impress" God but has no real backbone. There is no real seeking of the person of God or trying to understand the essence or spirit of God. It's just a set of rules that you follow.

This guy had a religious spirit. In my opinion, all people who get hateful about people who aren't converting to their opinion have a religious spirit or disposition. It's the, "If I can't jam you into this hole I've carved out for you, then I'll just cuss you out" idea. This guy doesn't want you to get saved because he wants the best for you; he wants you to get saved because that's what you're SUPPOSED to do, damn it!

Whoa. I've never actually heard any Christian sound like this. And I'll wager that this guy isn't one, either. How very sad. I'm so sorry this was ever said to you in the name of the Lord.

~C

[Joe Brummer]

but wait it continues.....



I wasn't looking for an understanding of Christ or God Mark, I am trying to understand you and people like you! Your post explains much. Thanks!



and the response from our buddy...
Mark said...

I wasn't looking for an understanding of Christ or God

Noooo really? too late to honest now boy.

Mark, I am trying to understand you and people like you!

'people' like me? you really mean, not like you?

You are such a Narcissistic A- hole joe. I mean that in the most loving way possible.

1/29/2007 11:29 PM


so I replied:
Joe Brummer said...

There is no way to call people names and have it be loving.....Trust me...I have read that part of the bible....

I am pretty secure in my beliefs and have no need of salvation Mark, I think we all need understanding of each other....

Uf this is what finding Christ has done for you, name calling and rudeness, then I can see why not many follow your denomination of Chrisitantity. Maybe you should re-read the bible....
and the final reply, since I am done with this....


Mark said...

There is no way to call people names and have it be loving.....Trust me...I have read that part of the bible....

Really boy? Then tell me what John the Baptist did and said? key word vipers.

I am pretty secure in my beliefs and have no need of salvation Mark,

Good for you boy. I, however, am not "pretty" secure, I am absolute certain secure.

I think we all need understanding of each other....

Again, what a load of insincere crap! I no more need to understand you fucked up life anymore than you need to understand why I curse alot. :)

Uf this is what finding Christ has done for you, name calling and rudeness, then I can see why not many follow your denomination of Chrisitantity. Maybe you should re-read the bible....

Again Joe, you are insincere.. Take your BS comments and eleswhere. You bore me, coward.

1/30/2007 12:12 AM

So, you don't think he is an example to christians everywhere? I can't imagine why he wouldn't inspire everyone to christ.....

[Pablo Rafael]

Joe,

It always astounds me how people like that can act the way they do and then actually put the title "Christian" to themselves. The worst enemy to the cause of Christ is those who call themselves "Christians". Such a person has never thought to put into practice the words of St. Paul, "They will know we are Christians by our love."

There is much damage done to the cause of Christ by various idiots who take on the label of "Christian". However, I am not going to apoligize for being a follower of the Christ. I don't let it discourage me from trying to tell others about the love of God. Our job as witnesses is not to "convert" people. That is beyond the power of any person. Our job is to spread the Word of God and let the Holy Spirit do the work. I believe that Christianity has much to offer. It is a message of love and salvation. It is a free gift of God. It is not a hammer or a sword.

Witnessing is not convincing someone or forcing someone to believe. It is simply spreading the light of Christ to the World. If our actions as Christians don't show love, then we need to take a good look at ourselves and see where we are going wrong.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Daniel]

Joe- I came upon this thread early on but didn't post. And now that I've come back to see catch up with things, and having read through your experience with the Red Devil (who I imagine writing in his underwear at home in the dead of night- single and lonely), don't know whether to laugh or cry.

The guy sounds like he is offering the same salvation he needs himself. I hope he finds it.

There's that old saying: "We teach what we need to learn."

[tpdncr4christ]

I think we ought to get this Mark dude some chocolate laxitives... clear him out a bit.

But I like him. Its people like him that help us. We go to the middle of the road folks and say, hey look at this guy, then they look at us and like us... Whether or not he know's it, this Mark it witnessing everyone right to us. :love:

[Joe Brummer]

I thought maybe you guys would be interested in reading where the conversation went. I am no longer going to reply on that conversation becuase I think it feeds the negativity and spiritual violence thing, but it is an interesting read when you see what an addiction the bible rather than being guided by the bible can do.

Here is the link to the post....

http://chesterstreet.blogspot.com/2007/01/marriage-is-not-love.html


The comments are interesting. I would ask that none of us continue to feed the comments there either.