Dreams

[Daniel]

Dreams.

A few days ago, I was corresponding privately with a friend here, and over the course of the conversation, found myself delving into past relationships and issues, all the while thinking about the present.

That night, I went to sleep and had 'one of those dreams'. The kind that wake you up, not with a start, but with a feeling of fascination at the inner workings of the mind, where you ask youself: "What does this mean?"

In short: I dreamt of my Shadow.


In Jungian psychology, the shadow or "shadow aspect" is a part of the unconscious mind which is mysterious and often disagreeable to the conscious mind, but which is also relatively close to the conscious mind. It may be (in part) one's link to animal life, which is superseded during early childhood by the conscious mind; afterwards it comes to contain thoughts that are repressed by the conscious mind. According to Jung, the shadow is instinctive and irrational, but is not necessarily evil even when it might appear to be so. It can be both ruthless in conflict and empathetic in friendship. It is important as a source of hunches, for understanding of one's own more inexplicable actions and attitudes (and of others' reactions), and for learning how to accept and integrate the more problematic or troubling aspects of one's personality. (For example, see The Emperor's New Clothes.)

The shadow may appear in dreams and visions in various forms, often as a feared or despised person or being, and may act either as an adversary or as a friend. It typically has the same apparent gender as one's persona. It is possible that it might appear with dark features to a person of any race, since it represents an old ancestral aspect of the mind. The shadow's appearance and role depend greatly on the living experience of the individual, because the shadow develops in the individual's mind rather than simply being inherited in the collective unconscious.

Interactions with the shadow in dreams may shed light on one's state of mind. A conversation with the shadow may indicate that one is concerned with conflicting desires or intentions. Identification with a despised shadow may mean that one has an unacknowledged resemblance to whatever one hates about that character. These examples refer to just two of many possible roles that the shadow may adopt, and are not general guides to interpretation. Also, it can be difficult to identify characters in dreams, so that a character who seems at first to be a shadow might represent some other complex instead.

Jung also made the suggestion of there being more than one layer making up the shadow. The top layer is the rationally explicable unconscious. It contains material which has been made unconscious artificially; that is, it is made up of elements of one's personal experiences. Underneath this layer, however, are the archetypes which form the psychic contents of personal experiences. Jung described this bottom layer as "a psychic activity which goes on independently of the conscious mind and is not dependent even on the upper layers of the unconscious - untouched, and perhaps untouchable - by personal experience" (Campbell, 1971). This bottom layer of the shadow is also what Jung referred to as the collective unconscious.

According to Jung, the shadow sometimes overwhelms a person's actions, for example, when the conscious mind is shocked, confused, or paralyzed by indecision.

I had read about this sort of thing years ago, and have had dreams where I could identify the concept Jung is talking about, but this dream fairly riveted my attention for the simple reason that the Shadow I saw was, in form and substance, a black featureless shadow in the form of a winged bird- zooming at me out of a dusky sky- large and powerful.

I'm still mulling over the meaning as well as message, and while I'm not asking for interpretation (I have a pretty good idea what the dream is all about), I would like to know if you have had a similar experience and how the experience affected you.

Was it healing? Terrifying? Revealing? Confusing? All of these? None of these?

What did you do about it, if anything?

This curious mind wants to know.


-----------

Last thought: I have a young friend who is very much in love with his boyfriend. They are planning to move in together and recently had curiously similar dreams the same night. One dreamt of a black woman, the other dreamt of a black man (they are white). This certainly fits the description above.

[Jennifer5]

Dreams.

I'm still mulling over the meaning as well as message, and while I'm not asking for interpretation (I have a pretty good idea what the dream is all about), I would like to know if you have had a similar experience and how the experience affected you.

Was it healing? Terrifying? Revealing? Confusing? All of these? None of these?

What did you do about it, if anything?

This curious mind wants to know.



All the time Daniel. I know what you're talking about.

These dreams always seem to be healing, comforting and revealing... at first I was a little thrown off and maybe even somehow afraid of them, but I got over that part. They occur when I would least expect it, and tend to act out what-ever huge thing that has recently been very heavy on my heart (whether I had recognized that or not).

After one of those dreams, I always wake up (usually after several not so good days), and I feel safe, rested and it's usually a very long time before the issue comes up again (whether I was even truley aware of what the meaning of the whole thing was or not). It always solves the problem, and often occurs when I had finally moved on and forgotten about the problem (or begun to ignor it)



What are you thinking this dream was revealing or telling you? If anything you're willing to share...? Or have you figured that part out yet?

:love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

[Daniel]

I like that David. Though, of course, my gay boy brain immediately went to the following song:

Hit it boys!


BIG D
From : The Most Happy Fella
Frank Loesser - 1956

You're from Big D, I can guess
by the way you drawl, and the way you dress
You're from Big D, my oh, yes
I mean Big D, little a, double l, a s
And that spells Dallas, my darlin', Dallas, darlin'
Don't it give you pleasure to confess
That you're from Big D, my oh yes
I mean Big D, little a, double l, a-
Big D, little a, double l, a
Big D, little a, double l, a- s.
That spells Dallas, where every home's a palace
'cause the settlers settle for no less
Hooray for Big D, my, oh yes
I mean Big D, little a, double l, a-
Big D, little a, double l, a-
Big D, little a, double l, a - s.

I'm a funny guy, start talking about the Sacred and up comes the Profane! (the idea and assocation- not the city or state)

When I was in my thirties, I had a whole series of these big D's, which were probably set off, in my case, because I was meditating like crazy. Even kept a journal about them. Looking through it on occasion, I marvel at what we call the mind, there is stuff there that seems to come from someone other than the person I call 'myself'. In that sense, I understand what you mean, David, when you write these experiences being a link between your subconscious mind (thank you Dr. Freud) and the Divine. It certainly does feel that way. Though, there was a period of about 6 weeks when I kept having terrifying Dreams of Nosferatu. I would wake up in a cold sweat. Nothing divine about that! :lol:

Jen- I love the ones you refer to- the gentle healing ones. Can't get enough of them. Waking up and feeling that, if one doesn't move a muscle, the gossamer, yet deeply felt wings of angels enfolding one, will never end. Sweet dreams indeed.

[Zerbie]

No. I don't think I connect to the Jungian shadow dream. . . unless the shadow can be bright.

I do have dreams sometimes that seem almost the opposite - a white gold woman, body made of white-gold light. She is supposed to be me. Comes to show me things. Maybe it IS the shadow dream and my shadow is light - what would that say about me?! :eek:

When I was psychologically trapped and in terrible physical health at 20, she came to me in a dream - I was at work in a bookstore and she came up to the counter, all shimmering light, wearing flowing white clothes, and purchased a $10,000 silver dove. She was me at 35 years old, and was buying the dove to tell me I would get there. So, I trust I will make it to 35 someday!!! :D

Also, since childhood, I have recurring dreams about a gay male twin. He grew up alongside me and he ages with me. He has had an entire detailed life parallel to mine, inside my dreaming. The most recent time I dreamed of him was when I dreamed he and I stumbled across Awediot outside in the dark, we were surrounded by hateful attacking mobs of people (picture crowds with pitchforks kinda thing:rolleyes: ) and Awediot dug up a sacred relic from the ground to give us two twin cross-like medallions - they were made of luminous white-gold light. The only two of their kind in the world, and we were to use them on a journey into a sacred battle. We put them on and the lights hung as pendants over our hearts and we walked quietly into the dark night by their light.

[Zerbie]

What a wonderful dream! Have you ever considered the possibility that you ARE a twin? Research is beginning to indicate that their are many more twin conceptions than births and that the lost fetus is absorbed either by the Uterus or by the surviving twin. such people often report the life long sense of something (someone) being missing.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: AAAAAAAAAAArrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

David that scares me to freaking DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Omigod, now I'm always going to wonder if that happened. :(

When I was little I used to sit and cry for a missing male counterpart who I was sure had evaporated into the sunset once. I used to look around for his face in crowded places.

Oh I am SO freaked out!!!!!!! I feel like I'm in a horror movie. :(

Can I go to an endocrinologist and have this tested? It would make me feel better to find out it's not true and it's just another part of my fantastic imagination. Nothin' wrong with imagination. But a lost twin would break my heart. :'(

[Zerbie]

I didn't mean to freak you out. We have twin sons so we have done a lot of reading about twins over the years. I don't think that there is any kind of test. The way they discovered this phenomenon was that... this might be freaky do you want me to say it? let me know

Oh come on!!!!

It's not going to be like the South Park episode, is it??

[Zerbie]

The way they discovered this phenomenon was that they began to find tiny little skeletons encysted in the bodies of the surviving twins and a large number of these persons had had the long term sense that someone important was missing. Only a tiny minority of surviving twins have remnants like that. Most lost twins are either reabsorbed by the Uterus or absorbed and disappear into the surviving twin.

AAAAAAghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :(

Crap. I don't WANT to know. shudder.

That's really sad. :'( Omigod.

[andrewlittle]

Perhaps, Zerbie, you could consider it God's way of preserving the preciousness of the creative energy. A built-in plan to recover the potential that was present, and make it real within the body of either the mother or the other twin. It would also be the constant presence of the life energy and love potential within you that would, otherwise, be lost.

BTW, David, geesh.

[Zerbie]

I didn't mean to upset you :(

You haven't done anything wrong. :love:

It's a disturbing subject that's all, like watching the news.:rolleyes: All is good between friends. :p

It is just so tremendously sad to imagine a person who so nearly was yet will never be. :'( I really feel for those surviving twins who found skeletons!!!! That must be an unbelievable feeling. :'(

[Daniel]

David- so my song and dance was really Gay of me? But you knew that already! (which is the title of an interesting memoir by Dougall Fraser, an openly gay psychic who I've had the good fortune to meet. http://www.dougallfraser.com/index.php ). I'll take that as a compliment! ;)

Zerbie- Wow! What great dreams! Thank you for sharing them. Reading them fills me with wonder and joy. Though I hardly know of what I speak, what you seem to be experiencing is on the other end of the spectrum, that being in touch with your superconsicous. The Shadow is just that- a shadowy aspect- that which is towards the unconconscious. Or course, we're using the paradigm of pyschoanalytic and tranpersonal psychology here.

There was one dream, from many years ago, that I still think about. I was at a friend's house, the church parsonage actually. My friend was in the process of divorcing her husband and coming out to herself as a lesbian. We stayed up half the night talking about things. An hour or so after I fell asleep I dreamt that I was standing at the base of an ancient tree, the roots of which were covered with large glowing gems, the colors of the rainbow, which lit up the underside of the tree canopy. I knelt down and picked each one up and put it in the palm of my hand, and in doing so, felt in my heart what each color meant, a difficult thing to put into words here, which may be why I remember the dream still.

What I sensed and felt was beyond description here, as if I was seeing/experiencing what color really was, as if the color that we see with our earthy eyes is only an echo of its true nature. Each color had a distinct emotional quality. And as I picked up the last one, it being a blue-ish lavender, I sat straight up in bed, opened my eyes, heart pounding, and felt as though my heart was connected to everything and everyone with a piercing intensity.

[Zerbie]

The tree dream is gorgeous!!!!!!

[andrewlittle]

Whadya mean "Geesh"? Just because you don't know as much really interesting stuff as I do is no reason to say "geesh" Start watching the Discovery Channel for crying out loud in a bucket!

At your age, David, I am sure you've forgotten more than some of us youngsters have known. At any rate, I digress.

Several of my friends have told me the wonderful attributes of their sensitivity "gaydar". I'm just wondering if yours need fine-tuned. Perhaps it's in the shop for service.

Anyway, geesh.

[Zerbie]

How do they know a twin was conceived and absorbed? Do they have some kind of observation that twins were conceived, and then can see one absorb into the other?? What makes them postulate that those people who feel someone "missing" are surviving twins?

[Daniel]

Just thinking here: isn't 'Geesh' the sister to Ganesh?

Ga·nesh (g?-n?sh') also Ga·ne·sha (-n?'sh?)
n. Hinduism.

The god of wisdom and the remover of obstacles, son of Shiva and Parvati, depicted as a short fat man with an elephant's head.

[andrewlittle]

... that David is a short fat man with an elephant's head. Wow, that's incredibly insensitive. Is there some kind of epidemic?

Oh no! My mistake. you were saying David is the sister of a short fat man ...

You know, David, I don't I'd take that from someone like Daniel.

[Daniel]

... that David is a short fat man with an elephant's head. Wow, that's incredibly insensitive. Is there some kind of epidemic?

Oh no! My mistake. you were saying David is the sister of a short fat man ...

You know, David, I don't I'd take that from someone like Daniel.

Ah.....such two dimensional thinking. And on a thread about dreams at that! What seems absurd is truth....just like in a dream.

You figure it out! (ahem.....what about the 'remover of obstacles' part? Crazy Wisdom.....no David isn't crazy either.....geesh as koan....?)

Geesh!

And how about a dream of your own? Hmmmmm? Dream a little dream with me.

[Zerbie]

... that David is a short fat man with an elephant's head. Wow, that's incredibly insensitive. Is there some kind of epidemic?

Oh no! My mistake. you were saying David is the sister of a short fat man ...

You know, David, I don't I'd take that from someone like Daniel.

Hey everybody, come quick! There's a fight on the playground! :p

[superhippy7890]

I've had a Syadow dream a few times. I perfer not to think about it.

[andrewlittle]

Zerbie:Hey everybody, come quick! There's a fight on the playground!

Daniel's just calling David names, and I won't have it. Somebody's gotta protect the old folks here.

Daniel:And how about a dream of your own?

I would, Daniel, but I haven't remembered any dreams since I was fifteen. I used to have repetitive nightmares and learned to tune out my dreams. That has come with a considerable price tag, however, in my later years. (Don't tell David I said "later years" - he seems convinced he's older.)

Daniel:Hmmmmm? Dream a little dream with me

Yes -well - dream on Dancing Bear.

[superhippy7890]

hmm I say wer let the fight happen! Boys will be boys after all!

[Daniel]

I would, Daniel, but I haven't remembered any dreams since I was fifteen. I used to have repetitive nightmares and learned to tune out my dreams. That has come with a considerable price tag, however, in my later years.

Fooey...I feel deprived....cause I bet you'd remember some interesting ones, that is, if you remembered to remember.

How about risking going to bed every night for the next two weeks and telling yourself before you drop off "I remember my dreams" with the companion thought that one will do fine thank you very much. Bet you'll come back here with one. No Shadow or anything icky.

There's a whole world in there! Just like here.

A little auto-suggestion can be a good thing, non?

[andrewlittle]

David:Fooey...I feel deprived....cause I bet you'd remember some interesting ones, that is, if you remembered to remember.

How about risking going to bed every night for the next two weeks and telling yourself before you drop off "I remember my dreams" with companion thought that one will do fine thank you very much. Bet you'll come back here with one. No Shadow or anything icky.

A little auto-suggestion can be a good thing, non?

I'll give that a try. I've never really tried anything to get them back. I did think, not to long ago, that that might be the goal of my next round of counseling. I'll give it as shot - by gum.

If I do remember one, I promise I'll keep it as un-icky as possible. I have a feeling most of my icky thoughts come during the day anyway. Ooh - there's another one.

A little auto-something can be a good thing - I'm not sure about suggestion, though. Oops, that was another one.

[Daniel]

David:

I'll give that a try. I've never really tried anything to get them back. I did think, not to long ago, that that might be the goal of my next round of counseling. I'll give it as shot - by gum.


Well....that's interesting. Funny how things like this turn up.

You might try keeping a pad and pencil by your bed too- as a reminder and suggestion. I've found that this only works if one does it every night, no skipping, for at least two weeks. One has to have single-minded persistence, wishing for it doesn't help. Even telling yourself you are going to remember during quiet time during the day is very helpful.

[Jennifer5]

Man! I sign off for a few hours and andrew starts making mischief. Daniel would NEVER say bad things about me. Andrew is just stirring up trouble.

Man I would sure hate to be the manager of his assisted living facility. He'd be stirring up trouble and the blue-haired ladies would be clubbing each other with their walkers. it must be terrible. And he just sits down in the rocker by the bird cage and chortles to himself until supper time.

Behave yourself Andy or there'll be no bingo for you tonight!
:lol: I think that's perfectly said David.


Daniel how is it that I man like you, who means to harm, continues to manage to get so upset with you... I just really don't understand how people seem to continually misunderstand your kind heart and gentle words... can't anyone take a joke anymore?:rolleyes:

Andrew, I know you're a good guy too, but you have to know that Daniel wouldn't ever do anything of the sort... :love:

Love to all of you... now let's get back to the topic and stop bickering :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

Jen- Everything's Ok. It's just 'boy talk'. ;)

[andrewlittle]

... but the old guys started it. Especially that David. You watch him while I'm gone, will ya.

Keep me in your prayers, if you will. I'm off to my last trainwreck with my presbytery.

Be good while I'm gone. :lol: :disagree: :wave:

[Jennifer5]

Jen- Everything's Ok. It's just 'boy talk'. ;)
I know, but somehow 'boy talk' seems to always turn out an argument...:rolleyes: and as long as you all realize that too, and don't get caught up in it.:love: ...and thank you

[tdogg]

Boys will be boys...like when I tell our big barking dog "quit acting like a dog and be quiet!" A little boy play is acceptable...

Dreams - once I had an incredible in-full-color dream that myself and another went to Russia and rescued a Christian prisoner from a jail cell in the ground, it was so scary and dangerous, but we successfully got him out of the country. I was 007 and batman all rolled into one butch chick. The most amazing dream ever.

In the years with my ex, I had recurring dreams that people would hide dead human bodies in my house, car, office, etc and I would have to deal with the bodies so no one thought I killed them. It was horrible. Once I left him in 2001, never had another one of those dreams. Someone thought maybe it was a part of me that had died and I was supposed to 'get rid of it finally'. ??

I have recurring elevator dreams - I'm always trying to go up but either the elevator doesn't work, there's too many people trying to go down, hits the wrong floors. Sometimes I have to go down before it starts to go up, or I have to go down, get off and take another one up. Once I opted for the stairs. Weird...

Lately I've been having recurring water dreams. Mostly, where I'm in a body of water - ocean, lake or wide spot in a river usually including a rushing water area - and I'm submerged either jumping in, trying to touch bottom or against my will somehow. I usually wake from those disturbed, they aren't that scary while I'm dreaming, but once awake they bother me for some reason.

On rare occasion I fly in my dreams - nothing like it!!! Maybe I was a bird in my last life....Ok, one last one - maybe my favorite - I was dreaming of a chicken I was playing with, it was snow white, and when it turned I noticed it had a bright purple tail - I started chuckling, it struck me as clever, and when I woke was still chuckling out loud. It was a wonderful dream!!

Funny, a commercial is on about Disney and 'dreams'....

[Zerbie]

I know, but somehow 'boy talk' seems to always turn out an argument...:rolleyes: and as long as you all realize that too, and don't get caught up in it.:love: ...and thank you

Oh no, please don't stop them. This is fun! :) Zerbie wants to see a good playground fight. ;) Go right ahead boys. ;)

[Jennifer5]

Oh no, please don't stop them. This is fun! :) Zerbie wants to see a good playground fight. ;) Go right ahead boys. ;)
Alright... fine... go back to your fighting boys. ;)

[Daniel]

On rare occasion I fly in my dreams - nothing like it!!! Maybe I was a bird in my last life....Ok, one last one - maybe my favorite - I was dreaming of a chicken I was playing with, it was snow white, and when it turned I noticed it had a bright purple tail - I started chuckling, it struck me as clever, and when I woke was still chuckling out loud. It was a wonderful dream!!

Ah.....you remind me of so much.

When I was a child (now this is embarrasing, but I don't give hoot anymore) I thought I could fly. Of course, part of my brain knew that I could not, but another part, whatever part that is, craved it like you can't believe. So here's the silly part (and I know I will never live this down- but come to think of it- after you've worn a tube top and thrown a baton in a bad opera and sashayed across the stage, nothing fazes you): remember the Flying Nun? Well darlings, I made my own hat and ran around the back yard. My parents never said a word- but must have known at that point- if they didn't already- that they had a queer duck on their hands.

I have had flying dreams since I was a child, And for most of my life they mirrored my Flying Nun days- trying to get in the air and not getting very far- always straining for altitude. Though as I have aged and come into my own, those dreams have changed. I really fly now. And percieve that as having everything to do with allowing love in my life.

Gay boys can fly!

[Jennifer5]

Ah.....you remind me of so much.

When I was a child (now this is embarrasing, but I don't give hoot anymore) I thought I could fly. Of course, part of my brain knew that I could not, but another part, whatever part that is, craved it like you can't believe. So here's the silly part (and I know I will never live this down- but come to think of it- after you've worn a tube top and thrown a baton in a bad opera and sashayed across the stage, nothing fazes you): remember the Flying Nun? Well darlings, I made my own hat and ran around the back yard. My parents never said a word- but must have known at that point- if they didn't already- that they had a queer duck on their hands.

I have had flying dreams since I was a child, And for most of my life they mirrored my Flying Nun days- trying to get in the air and not getting very far- always straining for altitude. Though as I have aged and come into my own, those dreams have changed. I really fly now. And percieve that as having everything to do with allowing love in my life.

Gay boys can fly!
Honestly Daniel, I'm a little surprised that you would share that:p ....did you ever try jumping off of anything so you could see what it felt like to fly? I mean I know that jumping off of just stairs, can feel like flying when you're little... as long as you didn't do anything stupid in the process, being a flying nun is harmless.:D

*On that note, I couldn't help but wonder, because I was one who grew up with my big brother who always considered jumping off the roof of the house into the (6ft deep) pool... as far as I know he never actually did it... but I thought he was just a little bit stupid to even consider figuring out if he thought he would clear it... (of course, meaning if he trying and didn't make it, he's probably end up in the hospital, or worse dead)... (but I guess this falls back under the catagory of boys will be boys :rolleyes: )

[Daniel]

Honestly Daniel, I'm a little surprised that you would share that:p ....did you ever try jumping off of anything so you could see what it felt like to fly? I mean I know that jumping off of just stairs, can feel like flying when you're little... as long as you didn't do anything stupid in the process, being a flying nun is harmless.:D


Nope. Didn't do anything stupid like that, thank goodness. I was always jumping up into space, not down into the ground. ;)

[Zerbie]

When I was a child (now this is embarrasing, but I don't give hoot anymore) I thought I could fly. : remember the Flying Nun? Well darlings, I made my own hat and ran around the back yard.

Awwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!! :love: :lol:


My parents never said a word- but must have known at that point- if they didn't already- that they had a queer duck on their hands.

"Queer Duck!:sing: He's intellectual. . .:sing: "

. Though as I have aged and come into my own, those dreams have changed. I really fly now. And percieve that as having everything to do with allowing love in my life.

Gay boys can fly!

Now that's :cool:

[Jennifer5]

Nope. Didn't do anything stupid like that, thank goodness. I was always jumping up into space, not down into the ground. ;)
ummm... alright... I believe you ;)