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suzer1013
02-06-2007, 10:50 AM
This is an excellent essay sent to me by my former minister, but also to be found on Simon Barrow's website. I've been thinking a lot about the "Is there room for dialogue" thread. I was dismayed to see Blossom abruptly pack up and leave just when I thought I was beginning to have a better understanding of dialoguing with folks who are coming from a very different perspective. Despite her decision to leave, I think we can continue dialoguing with others, and this article was, for me, very informative and opened my eyes to some of the difficulties with terminology and our ability to see eye to eye.

I've included the bibliography at the end, as there appear to be many excellent resources folks here might be interested in.

Susan

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Added by Jamie McDaniel
Original research article available at:
www.ekklesia.co.uk/research/070201 (http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/research/070201)
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Facing up to fundamentalism -Feb 01, 2007

"Fundamentalism has suddenly become a matter of concern for everyone, whether or not they are personally religious. It affects education in science and history; it affects political elections in some countries, and through this it affects international relations; it may affect the question of whether [hu]mankind survives [far] into the twenty-first century. Therefore, if people want to understand the world in which they live, they may find it necessary to understand something about fundamentalism." ~ James Barr

INTRODUCTION

The fact that ‘fundamentalism’ is used as a general, often indiscriminate and imprecise form of abuse, does not mean that there is not a real problem behind it. But getting to the nub of the issue in the context of media and public policy debate – where the desire for shorthand often overcomes the demands of clarity – is not easy.

In this paper we are addressing primarily the phenomenon of Christian fundamentalism in Anglo-American contexts, but with an awareness of global concerns and plural/secular pressures.

‘Fundamentalism’ is popularly used in two different, but overlapping, senses – (1) to denote a set of convictions which their adherents see as ‘fundamental’ and others as extreme or irrational dogmatism; and (2) to denote a procedure for arriving at convictions, often associated with ‘literalism’ in the reading of authoritative sacred texts.

Both these definitions are problematic, because they superimpose a term which actually arose in a specific setting (early twentieth century American Protestantism, in its response to the rise of modernism) onto the whole gamut of religious expression.

We must face the fact that the earlier, specific meaning of the word is now probably irrecoverable as a discreet definition – as Martin E. Marty and R. Scott Appleby observe in their encyclopaedic The Fundamentalism Project (five volumes, University of Chicago Press, 1993-1995) - speaking instead of 'fundamentalisms', plural. But it is still worth noting.

1. OBSERVATIONS

The five ‘fundamentals’ annunciated by US Presbyterians in (and subsequently articulated in twelve volumes called The Fundamentals, 1910-1915) are: the infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture, the virginal conception/deity of Christ, penal substitutionary atonement, Christ’s bodily resurrection, and the facticity of the miracles. The ‘personal return’ (second coming) of Christ is usually added.

It is worth noting that all of these feature in classic evangelical statements of faith (such as that used by UCCF) and that three of them are connected to foundational Christian doctrines – the nature of Christ, resurrection and parousia, making it impossible to regard the problem of fundamentalism as entirely extrinsic to the mainstream. Different interpretations of atonement and miracles have abounded in the churches, it should be recognised – The Fundamentals seeks to fix these (and other Christian convictions) in particular ways, based on a belief about the essential antagonism between God and humanity – one, ironically, which mirrors the assumptions of a certain strain of modernity.

The key to historic Christian fundamentalism is often taken to be infallibility/inerrancy, terms which can denote either similar or distinguishable ‘doctrines of scripture’ (that is, human propositions about the Bible) – with conservative evangelicals (often wrongly termed ‘fundamentalists’) seeing the biblical message as unerringly truthful in all that it teaches, but not necessarily on all that it touches or describes (I. H. Marshall).

Biblical scholar James Barr – in Fundamentalism (1977), Escaping from Fundamentalism (1984) and Beyond Fundamentalism (1984) – has noted, with others, that Christian fundamentalism is mostly not, as its critics inaccurately claim, ‘literalistic’ in it scriptural references. Instead he shows that fundamentalism understood as a particular, authoritarian reading of the Bible is actually a surprisingly 'modern' phenomenon – a distorted version of rationalism which fits selected texts into a pre-determined ideology which it then reads back into them (eisegesis).

He demonstrates this by elaborating the ways in which fundamentalist interpretation resists the plain or surface meaning of the text for one which harmonises its irregularities in favour of a particular doctrinal outcome. He also shows that those who claim ‘only one possible meaning’ for the texts they use as knock-down authorisation for their opinions frequently come up with different or diametrically opposed accounts of what the ‘one truth’ is. Fundamentalism is notoriously sectarian.

The key word is ‘interpretation’. If fundamentalism is rendered coherent and is characterised by any one thing, it is its refusal to recognise that its reading of scripture is, like all textual reading, interpretative. Rather, it sees the authoritative text as being unmediated.

2. DEFINITIONS

It is this prior philosophical conviction (unacknowledged as such) about unmediated truth which perhaps gives us the best way of pointing to the problem of religious fundamentalism in the contemporary – given that the terms is now inescapably used to describe similar features of different religious systems, including, notably, Islam. (Inter alia, inter-faith specialist Christopher Lamb noted how unhelpful this is to interreligious encounter in an article in the Autumn 1997 edition of ‘Christian’ magazine.)

Giles Fraser (‘Why legalism misrepresents the Bible’, Ekklesia, 27/01/07) observes a further twist: “When someone put in those nasty verse numbers, the lawyers started to feel it was their book — a set of regulations. Chapter and verse started sounding like paragraph 1, subsection 3 of a legal contract. That was the point at which some Christians began to reject the idea that the Bible could be read in various ways, and, worse still, that it might contain contradictions or poetry. Such things would undermine its status as the ultimate legal document.”

It is the belief that revealed truth is to be apprehended directly and in an unmediated (often legalistic) form by a privileged group which distinguishes the ‘fundamentalist mindset’ – and which makes it possible, despite the difficulties noted above, to use the term more generally. But its pejorative and abusive connotations often disable such descriptive usefulness with emotivism.

3. PROBLEMS

Emotion aside, however, it must be recognised that convictions about being the recipient of un-mediated truth, when combined with the view that ‘error has no rights’, leads frequently, if not unassailably, to totalitarianism. This can be the case in some forms of modern Christian fundamentalism, where the ‘classical’ formula has been further revised in the direction of a violent, vindicatory apocalyptic that validates divinely mandated victory for the carriers of a particular viewpoint. And where the erosion of power and influence that flowed from Christendom has produced a victim mentality which equates loss of suasion or privilege with anti-Christian prejudice (something which may, it must be conceded, exist) and persecution (which, in the plural West, does not). In this sense, the fundamentalist mindset, reinforced by an all-encompassing, localised and inward-looking culture, can be profoundly damaging, corrosive and dangerous – not least to biblical faith, and to politics as a negotiation of power in the presence of difference.

Catherine Madsen (in ‘CrossCurrents’, the journal of the Association of Religion in Intellectual Life, USA) has made the following challenging observation: “To grow up politically is to understand that there are other points of view, and that you cannot erase them; that there are no shortcuts to respect, and that one must earn one's dignity; that our obligation to our fellow humans is to make our own point of view not unassailable but intelligible. What do you want so badly that you have to develop an impenetrable and threatening rhetoric to talk about it, or blow yourself and the bystanders to bloody shreds rather than ask for it sanely? The Buddhist monks who immolated themselves in protest against the Vietnam war did it one by one; they went into an open space where there were no people and sat in the flames.

“Like totalitarians of all ideological stripes and mystics of all religions, painstaking thinkers of all cultures know each other intuitively across the boundaries of opposition. Totalitarians do not like them; indeed they are always at risk from the totalitarians in their own culture as well as those in the enemy's. In spite of this—or because of it—they are determined to construct a trustworthy language, a language dense and durable enough to resist the corruptions of politics. That language, if any, is religious. We will be lucky if it ever finds its way into prayer.”

In his book Faith and Politics After Christendom (2006), Jonathan Bartley has outlined some ways in which Christian fundamentalism, routinely thought of as aggressively assertive but not violent, can spill over into the use of violence – and in some cases already has. See also ‘The end of Christendom as a political threat’, Ekklesia, 09/01/07, Karen Armstrong’s study, The Battle for God (2001), and Leonardo Boff, Fundamentalism, Terrorism and the Future of Humanity (2005).

4. UNDERSTANDINGS

A confused diagnosis often leads to a confused understanding of, and response to, fundamentalism. As we have seen, although it has cognates from the past, the fundamentalist mindset is inherently modern (in its approach to texts, and in its use of technology, we might add). To view it as a refusal of modernity in all its forms is incorrect. It is, in many respects, a perversion of modernity in primarily, but not exclusively, ‘religious’ form. (For a broader perspective on this, referencing Islam, see John Gray, Al Qaeda and What It Means to Be Modern, 2005.)

The terms ‘conservative’, ‘traditional’ and ‘orthodox’ – as well as ‘evangelical’ and ‘radical’ – are also frequently used, incorrectly, as definitive for an understanding of fundamentalism in contemporary discourse. In fact conservatism shows a respect for past traditions of reasoning and living which fundamentalism often eschews in its pursuit of unmediated truth in the here-and-now. Tradition, rightly understood, is about continuity through development, argument and change in community, not individualism and fixity. And orthodoxy originates, as the word suggests, from a disposition of praise – translated into the formularies which provide the grammar and syntax by which relationship to God (through the experiences, signs, actions, encounters, thoughts, traditions and texts which convey God) can be transmitted. It is, as Rowan Williams points out, inherently creative rather than rigid – seeking, as in the doctrine of the incarnation, to hold together as paradox things which a more eliminative mind would want neatly to distinguish or ‘order’.

Meanwhile, an evangelical is one committed to the evangel, good news, contained in the biblical record and fully-fleshed in Christ, and radicalism (radix, ‘root’) means rooted in such a way as to be able to move to the risky frontiers. Of course, meanings are contested. But all of these dispositions can be clearly distinguished from fundamentalism. Some writers appear to miss these distinctions, or unhelpfully blur them (Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and Richard Dawkins) to serve ulterior polemical purposes.

5. RESPONSES

The following observations are offered as some initial guidelines toward more substantial responses. These might include a risk assessment of fundamentalist activity (including putative violence), further public policy information-sharing, more developed education programmes within the churches (and beyond), projects concerned with transitioning away from fundamentalism, and exchanges with other faith communities as they seek to address the challenge in their (different) contexts:

• Since fundamentalism involves claims about unmediated truth, perhaps the best and surprising response (for Christians) is the Bible itself – which proves to be, in its variety, subtlety and engagement of the reader in its broad range of understandings and practices – nothing like the book (mis)described by fundamentalism. Deep engagement with scripture and with the interpretative, communal and life skills it requires of us is something the churches generally under-emphasise. Interestingly, a survey by Christian Research has indicated that ‘fundamentalist’ churches are often among those where the Bible is studied least, contrary to general assumptions.

• Similarly, fundamentalism tends to reduce Christ to an ideological tool, de-emphasising the person of Jesus, the Jesus-movement in Christian history and discipleship – and therefore the central Christian conviction that the Word has become, first and foremost, flesh. It is the lively materiality of the Gospel to which the texts bear testimony, both by calling us to recognition, and by showing us how we fall short of the vulnerability of God in Christ. The religiously-sanctioned horrors and genocides of the Bible can and should be read this way, with the Spirit-impelled Jesus as the hermeneutical (interpretative) key.

• ‘Infallibility’ and ‘inerrancy’ are human constructs which stress the inviolability of something within human control. The Christian message, by contrast, is that God has chosen the ‘weak vessels’ of flesh, textuality, history, reason and tradition through which to address us. In this respect, as David E. Jenkins has observed, “fundamentalism is fatally flawed” from the perspective of a mainstream Christian orientation. The biblical language is of “inspiration”, divine wisdom working with, in and through the mind and the heart, rather than over and against these things.

• Fundamentalism as a mindset is a refusal of conversation. In must cases it cannot be out-argued or ‘reasoned with’, because its narrow premises are constructed in such a way as to eliminate critique and encourage self-affirmation. But this should not lead us to the dangerous conclusion that encounter with fundamentalists is unnecessary or unfruitful.

• On the contrary, many Christians pass through a ‘fundamentalist phase’, especially when they are young or new to the faith. Security and relationship are precisely what enable people to move beyond this stage, and to discover a rootedness which is about grace rather than self-assertion. Writing people off and labelling them reinforces the exclusive culture which nurtures the fundamentalist mindset. Encouraging Christians to mix and talk widely, both inside and outside the church, opens windows to closed minds if it is done in the right spirit.

• James Barr and others – including highly-regarded evangelical scholars such as James D. G. Dunn and I. Howard Marshall - are right to stress that ‘evangelical commitment’ and the mindset of fundamentalism are not the same thing – indeed they are opposites, since the former is a disposition of faith (reasonable trust) rather than certainty.

• There are very particular problems stemming from fundamentalism which churches and Christian organisations need to address much more directly than they are at the moment. One of these is ‘creationism’ and its cousin Intelligent Design, which posits a conflict between natural science and divine wisdom, and rejects the traditional Christian view that God creates ex nihilo (i.e. donates rather than manufactures) and upholds the whole world process rather than a part of it where ‘gaps’ can be identified. The problem of creationism stems in part from a blinkered reading of Genesis which ignores its varied and figurative expression and imposes instead the refutation of a modern theory of origins (evolution) – which it mistakenly thinks of as a threat.

• Another challenge is that of ‘Christian Zionism’, which again reads selected biblical texts in a rigid and pre-determined way (as evangelical scholars Don Wagner, Stephen Sizer and Colin Chapman have demonstrated). The result is an ideology which divides the hope of Israel from justice for Palestinians, and turns Christian politics into a tribal identification with land claims, rather than a universal message about God’s gift of peace, justice and a ‘new creation’.

• Current arguments around sexuality within the churches are also infected by 'proof-texting' and other procedures reflective of, if not necessarily rooted in, the fundamentalist mindset.

• The violence inherent in, or attached to, notions of totalising communal inerrancy and penal substitutionary atonement are also issues which require much more debate. On the latter, see Consuming Passion: Why the killing of Jesus really matters (2005), edited by Simon Barrow and Jonathan Bartley.

• In the USA and elsewhere there are identifiable (and self-identifying) fundamentalist movements. In Britain most Christians eschew the term, but ‘the fundamentalist mindset’ can be seen in some non-denominational and ‘new’ churches, as well as within traditional denominations. Creationist ideas can be found within some Church of England settings, for example. It is not just a problem ‘out there’ for the historic churches, and it is clearly an ecumenical as well as an inter-faith challenge.

• Finally, Christians and others would do well to seek to re-evaluate and disarm a form of discourse which simplistically pits religious ‘conservatives’ against ‘liberals’, seeing fundamentalism as the purest form of the former and non-belief as the purest form of the latter – as if the choice was between Jerry Falwell and Richard Dawkins. It patently is not. The processes of conservation and liberality are much more interesting than that, and indeed need one another. Responsible generosity towards the past, present and future go together with an attitude that we are not controllers, but recipients of the sheer gift that is God in Christ. A very different kind of theological and cross-community conversation is needed at the tail end of Christendom and in the continuing uncertainty that is post-modernity. One which questions our answers rather than reinforcing our stereotypes.


Simon Barrow
January 2007

[This paper was originally prepared for a consultation in Elizabeth House, Westminster, London. Further research and response may follow.]

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suzer1013
02-06-2007, 10:50 AM
Here's the bibliography:

SELECT BIBLIOGRAPHY

Alves, Rubem: Protestantism and Repression (SCM Press, 1985)

Armstrong, Karen: The Battle for God (Ballantyne Books, 2001).

Barr, James: Fundamentalism (SCM Press, 1977).

_________: Escaping from Fundamentalism (SCM Press, 1984).

Barrow, Simon: 'Does Christianity kill or cure?' (Ekklesia, July 2005).

Barrow, Simon and Jonathan Bartley: Consuming Passion: Why the killing of Jesus really matters (Darton, Longman and Todd, 2005).

Bartley, Jonathan: Faith and Politics After Christendom (Paternoster Press, 2006).

_____________: 'The end of Christendom as a political threat' (Ekklesia, January 2007).

_____________: 'What are the chances of a holy war?' (Ekklesia, November, 2006).

Bawer, Bruce: Stealing Jesus: How fundamentalism betrays Christianity (Three Rivers Press, 1998)

Boff, Leonardo: Fundamentalism , Terrorism and the Future of Humanity (SPCK, 2005).

Bruce, Steve: Fundamentalism (Polity, 2005).

Cameron, Peter: Fundamentalism and Freedom (Doubleday, 1995).

Campose, Paul: ‘Secular Fundamentalism’, Columbia Law Review, No. 94, (1994) p. 1825.

Chapman, Colin: Whose Promised Land? (Lion, 2002).

Fraser, Giles: 'Why legalism misrepresents the Bible' (Ekklesia, January 2007).

Gray, John: Al Qaeda and What it Means to be Modern (Faber & Faber, 2004).

Henry, Carl F: The Uneasy Conscience of Modern Fundamentalism (Eerdmans, 2003).

Howard, Roland: Charismania: When fundamentalism goes wrong (Continuum, 2005).

Jenkins, David E: ‘Fundamentalism fatally flawed’, God, Miracle and the Church of England (SCM Press, 1984).

Kung, Hans and Jurgen Moltmann: Fundamentalism as an Ecumenical Challenge, Concilium, (SCM Press,1992/3).

Lawrence, Bruce: Defenders of God: The Fundamentalist Revolt Against the Modern Age (Harper & Row Publishers, 1989).

Loader, William G. R.: Jesus and the Fundamentalism of His Day (Eerdmans, 2004)

Madsen, Catherine: 'Learning to converse like grown-ups' (Ekklesia, November 2006 + Fall 2006, CrossCurrents: Journal of the Association of Religion in Intellectual Life)

Marsden, George: Understanding Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism (Eerdmans, 1991).

Marsden, George: Reforming Fundamentalism (Eerdmans, 1987).

Marshall, I. H: Biblical Inspiration (Hodder and Stoughton, 1982, rep. Paternoster).

Martin, William: With God on Our Side: The Rise of the Religious Right in America (Broadway Books, 1996).

Marty, Martin and R. Scott Appleby: Fundamentalisms Observed. The Fundamentalism Project. Volume 1 (University of Chicago Press, 1993).

Marty, Martin E. and R. Scott Appleby: Fundamentalisms and Society. The Fundamentalism Project. Volume 2 (University of Chicago Press, 1993).

Marty, Martin E. and R. Scott Appleby: Fundamentalisms and the State. The Fundamentalism Project. Volume 3 (University of Chicago Press, 1993).

Marty, Martin E. and R. Scott Appleby: Accounting for Fundamentalisms. The Fundamentalism Project. Volume 4 (University of Chicago Press, 1994).

Marty, Martin E. and R. Scott Appleby: Fundamentalisms Comprehended. The Fundamentalism Project. Volume 5 (University of Chicago Press, 1994).

Nielsen, Niels S: Fundamentalism, Mythos, and World Religions (State University of New York Press, 1993).

Percy, Martyn: Fundamentalism, Church and Society (SPCK, 2002).

Peters, Ted and Martinez J. Hewlett: Can You Believe in God and Evolution?: A Guide for the Perplexed (Abingdon, 2006).

Sharma, Arvind: Fundamentalism and Women in World Religions (Continuum, 2007).

Sizer, Stephen: Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon? (Inter-Varsity Press, 2005).

Student Christian Movement: The F-word – A resource guide to fundamentalism (SCM, 1993).

Wagner, Don: Anxious for Armageddon (Herald Press, 1995).

BruceChris
02-06-2007, 03:57 PM
I sat down to read this innocent looking thread, and before I knew it, I had read the whole thing. Despite myself, I suspect that I actually learned something, and (Please don't tell anyone) I actually had to stop and think in places. :confused: :eek: :confused:

Hey, SoulForcers, are we going to allow ourselves to be subjected to this sort of treatment now, or in the future? I say let's stand up and throw off the yoke of understanding and open-mindedness, once and for all! :weee:

The Bruce Guy :smashy:

BenL
02-06-2007, 08:48 PM
As Bruce jokingly implied, that was a lot of work, but well worth it.

I always mistrust oversimplification of arguments on the other side of any argument. This gives depth and texture to what we probably would rather dismiss as simplistic. These are real people, and the fundamentalist movement arose out of real concern and dissatisfaction. Fundamentalism would not have survived or thrived if it did not hit some need in human nature. Understanding that need would go a long way to breaking down the barriers between "us" and "them." Who knows? We might even be able to talk about "us" for a change.

I'm the first to admit that wouldn't be as much fun as an all-out shouting match. (Actually, I hate confrontation personally, but I don't mind letting others do my shouting for me.)

I hope those who have lived in the Fundamentalist culture, and who may have been deeply hurt by it, will respond with insight to this rather academic paper.

BenL

Daniel
02-07-2007, 01:00 AM
Fascinating essay. Thanks for posting it here.

I agree with you Suzer. Just as it looked like the 'dialogue' thread was going somewhere, a primary contributor left the conversation.

~

My observation is that the fundamentalist is someone who is concerned, more than anything else, with safety.

ladyinred
02-07-2007, 03:12 AM
http://www.whosoever.org/v2Issue2/fundamental.html
Part of the article:Modern fundamentalist Christianity is mostly about controlling people's beliefs and people's behavior. It is also about controlling God. We want to be able to explain why things happened and why they didn't; because, if we cannot explain them we are not in control of them.

Jesus didn't follow the religious rules and it made the Pharisees very angry. Most of their anger was rooted in fear. They were afraid they might be wrong about who God was and how God behaved.

In the early 80's I was the Director of Education for the Atlanta Gay Center. In that capacity I taught a class at the Atlanta Police Academy. Each month I tried to teach them ways to be sensitive to the lesbian and gay citizens of Atlanta.

I would begin by asking everyone who was left-handed to hold up their hands. Then I would ask those who had a left-handed child or spouse to hold up their hands. Then would ask people who had left-handed friends to raise their hands. By this time of course everyone in the room had their hands up. Then I would say, "Did you know that the same portion of the population is lesbian or gay as is left-handed?"

You never saw people yank down their hands so fast. Most of my time was spent answering their questions. All would be fine until someone would ask a question about religion or the Bible. Then my life became hell. The more devout the questioner the more hateful they became. Finally an atheist in the room would come to my rescue.

It is somewhat amusing to watch a person who is typically rational and graceful begin to froth at the mouth about this issue. I always wonder what it is that they are so afraid of? They don't generally become so angry with Jewish people who might not believe Jesus is the Messiah. They usually aren't so hateful with Hindu's who don't believe Yahweh is the One true God. Why does this issue stir fury of the fundamentalist so?

I could speculate about that, but what it obvious is that like Jesus we haven't done anything that warrants our being spiritually destroyed. Fundamentalism is almost always a fear based faith. That is as true of our fundamentalism as it is of theirs.

Jesus lived free from fear and for that they wanted to destroy him.

ladyinred
02-07-2007, 03:29 AM
http://www.whosoever.org/v5i1/christian.html "How dare they call it love."

ladyinred
02-07-2007, 03:35 AM
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/258439.htm
Part of the article:Gay Rights vs. Religious Freedom

Image © Austin Cline
Original Poster:
National Archives Opposition to equal civil rights for gays comes in many forms. Religious conservatives are losing the argument that there is something necessarily wrong with homosexuality, so they appear to be turning to a new one: treating gays like fully equal citizens and human beings is incompatible with conservatives’ religious liberty.
Since when did the preservation of religious liberty require treating members of a minority like second-class citizens? To be fair, expanding the sphere of rights that are protected can impose limitations on others. The rights of Jews to be free from discrimination means, for example, that employers can't refuse to hire someone who is Jewish. What's wrong with that, though?

ladyinred
02-07-2007, 03:44 AM
http://atheism.about.com/od/gaymarriage/a/GaysReligion.htm
part of the article:Both slavery and segregation were based upon religious beliefs; it would have been easy for slavers or segregationists to make the same argument Rick Duncan offers: it’s incompatible with religious liberty to treat blacks like equal human beings or equal citizens. Ultimately, they lost the cultural, social, and political arguments. Society changed, and today both slavery and segregation are wrong. People who argue that whites are superior to others and should have access to special privileges unavailable to non-whites — even if they base their claim on religious beliefs — are labeled racists and ejected from polite company.

The same will eventually happen with gays in America. Even today, it’s harder to be openly bigoted against gays than it was a couple of decades ago, with the main exception being bigotry framed in religious terms. At some point, though, such bigotry will be treated with the same contempt as racial bigotry framed in religious terms. Christians will have to choose between social ostracization or modifying their views — just as they have had to do on racial issues. This isn’t a threat to religious liberty because no one has a religious “right” to hold and advocate views without social consequences.

ladyinred
02-07-2007, 04:00 AM
Seems Satanists have more rights then gays... Geeeeeeeesh.
http://atheism.about.com/od/gaymarriage/a/Discrimination.htm


The idea that there is a conflict between protecting gays’ equal civil rights and protecting Christians’ religious liberty is often compared to past Christian claims about the religious foundations of racism. Many dispute the analogy between race and homosexuality because homosexuality is a “choice” or “lifestyle” whereas race is not.Let's consider other analogies...

Dietary Restrictions
Christianity doesn’t have dietary restrictions, but they are common in other religions. Judaism and Islam, both of which are theologically close to Christianity, prohibit adherents from eating pork for example. Such restrictions are normally taken seriously by devout believers and often constitute serious religious doctrines for them, mandating behaviors which help distinguish them from others in society.

Would it be justified for believers to discriminate against those who refuse to abide by such dietary restrictions? Would be be legal to refuse to hire, rent to, or serve people who eat pork? What if they are adherents of the religion in question who don’t agree on the importance of these restrictions? Of course such discrimination wouldn’t be permitted. Regardless of how important such restrictions are to a religious believer, the state’s interest in protecting the equality of all citizens is far greater than in protecting some peoples’ beliefs about how they should treat those who don’t abide by all their religious rules.



Religion vs. Religion
Discrimination related to religious dietary restrictions isn’t very likely, but what about discrimination due to following the “wrong” religion? It’s more plausible that someone might not want an adherent from a very different religion to have a position of power and influence over children, for example, or even to simply be around. Discrimination against someone for being a Satanist, or even a Hindu, isn’t far-fetched.

Just as some don’t want a lesbian teaching their children or a gay man serving as a scout leader, some many not want a Satanist teaching in public school or a Hindu as scout leader. Not wanting children to be “influenced” by a homosexual is no less important to some than not wanting them to be “influenced” by a Satanist or a polytheist. The state's interest in protecting a person against religious discrimination is greater than the state's interest in protecting the "right" of a person to discriminate against a person because of their religion.



Gender Roles
In America, at least, religiously motivated discrimination against women is more likely than such discrimination on the basis of eating the wrong things or following the wrong religion. Not only is belief in divinely mandated differences in gender roles common, but so is the effort to promote such distinctions in law, politics, and culture. Given also how closely connected these beliefs are to the attitudes towards gays, this analogy is strong.

Can an employer refuse to promote a woman to manager due to the religiously motivated belief that women should not have authority over men and, moreover, that she should be home taking care of the house? What if he refuses to hire a young mother or to give maternity leave to a man due to the religiously motivated belief that women are responsible for raising and nurturing children? Could he pay men more than women because of the belief that men are supposed to be the breadwinners?

No. In such cases, a person is not only prevented from acting on their religious beliefs, they are in fact forced by law to act contrary to their religious beliefs. No court would accept as a valid justification for exemptions from generally applicable anti-discrimination laws the claim that one has a First Amendment right to discriminate. Regardless of how deeply felt the belief is that God has decreed different social roles for men and women, the fact remains that acting on such beliefs harms others.

It is the harm to others upon which courts must focus — government exists to protect people from harm, not to protect the ability of some to harm others because they think God tells them to. People have a right to believe that homosexuality is abhorrent, but they don’t have a constitutional right to act on that belief if their acts cause harm. This is why protecting the equal civil rights of gays is no more a threat to religious liberties than is protecting the equal civil rights of women, Satanists, and pork-eaters.

ladyinred
02-07-2007, 04:14 AM
WHO really wants special privileges? Another article......
Guaranteeing Civil Equality does not mean Granting Special Privileges
A common Christian Right argument against protecting gays’ basic civil rights is that gays are seeking “special” rights unavailable to others. This is untrue, but it’s rhetorically powerful and sounds convincing. It's also hypocritical because if any group in America is benefiting from and defending special rights for themselves, it’s religious believers. Why do Christians favor restrictions on gays which they would never accept for themselves?

Gays’ Special Status
The only “special” status gays have is something they abhor rather than seek: not being fully protected by the Constitution. In too many places, gays have no legal protection from being denied a job, a promotion, or housing merely because they are gay. Some go so far as to assert a “religious right” to refuse to provide the same medical treatment to gays as they do to heterosexuals.

It’s arguable that the point of this is the preservation of heterosexual privilege — one of the few traditional privileges remaining today.

Male, Christian, and religious privilege have all been under assault through the 20th century, and to varying degrees, all have been undermined. Their future is doubtful; heterosexual privilege, though, seems relatively secure — not absolutely secure, just apparently secure relative to the other privileges.
What is it about some people that they need to feel superior to someone...anyone? There are men who need women to be inferior, Christians who need non-Christians to be inferior, religious believers who need nonbelievers and atheists to be inferior, citizens who need foreigners to be inferior...and heterosexuals who need gays to be inferior. Why can’t those who are different be equal in their differences?

Immutable Characteristics vs. Chosen Behavior
Complaints about “special” rights for gays often rely upon contrasts between homosexuality and characteristics like gender and race. Gender and race cannot be chosen, so it’s reasonable to bar discrimination because of them. Homosexuality, they claim, is a lifestyle choice which does not merit the same protection. That most research shows homosexuality to not be a choice is irrelevant — in part because they define homosexuality as same-sex sexual behavior, not as same-sex attraction.

Even if homosexuality were chosen, though, the “special” rights argument would apply equally to religion. Beliefs may not be chosen through acts of will, but they do involve behaviors and they are not immutable like race or gender. Religion is arguably as much about behavior and lifestyle and homosexuality,(OOPs I think he meant heterosexuality) if not more so. Thus, a principle argument used by the Christian Right here would deny anti-discrimination protections to religious believers.

The Christian Right probably doesn't think such discrimination is constitutionally or ethically valid as a general principle; instead, they see gays as too abhorrent to remain inside the normal parameters of law and morality. Gays are inferior beings who are so perverse that they shouldn’t be treated as equals.

Special Rights for Religious Believers
Ironically, there is a class of “special rights” in America — but for religious believers, not gays. If a person has a sincere religious belief, they can apply for — and are usually granted — exemptions from generally applicable and neutral laws. Employers, too, are required to accommodate people’s religious beliefs even if this means exempting them from generally applicable, neutral rules in the workplace.

Religious believers enjoy a broad array of special rights and privileges unavailable to others who may want exemptions for non-religious reasons; yet some of these same religious believers whine about gays demanding “special rights” for themselves — rights which amount to no more than the same civil protections which everyone else enjoys. When Christians demand exemptions from laws everyone else has to follow, they are simply demanding the ability to freely exercise their religion; when gays simply want to be able to work and shop without being discriminated against, they are unjustly demanding "special" rights.

Special Rights vs. Equal Rights
When interracial couples fought for the right to marry each other, were they asking for equal rights or special rights? They wanted the same rights as other couples, but conservatives insisted they really wanted special rights. After all, no one was allowed to marry members of another race, so all were treated equally. Right?

It is a profound insult to tell people that their desire to enjoy the same basic rights as other Americans is really a desire to have “special” rights unavailable to others. It’s possible that some Christians do consider housing, jobs, and medical care to be “unusual demands” — at least, when it comes to gays. Homosexuality is condemned by God, so perhaps they don’t deserve the ability to hold a job, to buy food, or to find shelter like other citizens.

ladyinred
02-07-2007, 04:28 AM
Gay Marriage vs. Divorce & Remarriage...... Man ,this guy is so good in his arguments and reasoning....
Banning Divorce to Protect and Preserve Traditional Marriage
Religious conservatives are fierce defenders of the idea that gay marriage must be absolutely prohibited to "save" traditional marriage. They even argue that anything remotely resembling marriage, like civil unions, must be banned as well. If we ignore how most of this position is tied inextricably to religious ideology, and focus solely on the claim that traditional marriage is in danger, what do we find? Inconsistency and hypocrisy.

History
The arguments being used by the Christian Right today against gay marriage are not unique, nor did they appear out of nowhere. These arguments are an integral part of how the Christian Right views the world, and they have used the same arguments in the past to oppose the liberalization of divorce laws. Thus the problems with both the Christian Right's rhetoric and agenda on gay marriage can be revealed most readily by comparing gay marriage with divorce.

Those who attack legalizing gay marriage say they are defending the institution of marriage, but if that were really true, why aren't they spending at least as much time and vigor attacking divorce? After all, more divorces mean fewer marriages, so isn't divorce more of a threat than gay marriage? For a long time, divorce was impossible or very difficult to obtain in America.

Most religious groups opposed divorce in all but the most extreme circumstances — even if a woman was beaten regularly by her husband, clergy would counsel her to stay with him and learn how to better submit to him in order to avoid the abuse. Conservative Christians attacked divorce and the liberalization of divorce laws in the same way they attack gay marriage
today. They argued that divorce laws should be tightened, not relaxed; they argued that marriage was a religious rather than a legal issue, and that the law should be used to defend religious tradition as they defined it; they argued that divorced people should be treated like criminals; and they argued for greater social censure and ostracism for those who get divorced anyway.

Did civilization collapse on itself, as conservative Christians claimed it would in the wake of liberal divorce laws? No; and while most religious groups continue to at least disapprove of divorce, they have learned to accept its presence — even the Catholic Church authorizes more annulments in America than anywhere else in the world. American culture changed and conservative Christians had to change with it, though few would admit this openly.

Why Not Ban Divorce?
The Christian Right's arguments about the need to protect and preserve traditional marriage work equally well in support of banning divorce as they do in support of banning gay marriage.

Here is the text of the 2004 Anti-Gay Marriage Amendment:

Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman.
Neither this Constitution, nor the constitution of any State, shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the union of a man and a woman.
What if that were changed:

Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the permanent union of a man and a woman.
Neither this Constitution, nor the constitution of any State, shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the permanent union of a man and a woman.
This should eliminate divorce by defining marriage as something that cannot be dissolved. It should also prohibit recognition of remarriage after divorce when performed abroad, just as it would prohibit recognition of gay marriages performed abroad. How many would support this alteration? Very few, I expect — but those who think that gay marriage should be banned are hypocrites for not adopting a similar line when it comes to divorce. Opposition to divorce, both as a threat to marriage and as contrary to Christian scripture, is supported both by the history of America's Christian Right as well as the logic of their own arguments against gay marriage.

Few Americans would accept banning divorce, though. Today divorce is easier than it was in the past because society has decided that divorce is a civil matter, subject to civil laws voted on by elected representatives — not religious laws subject to the interpretation of unelected religious leaders in a sharia-style situation.

It’s unfortunate that similar arguments are being made once again in the context of gay marriage, but it’s not surprising because the Christian Right subscribes to an absolutist religion which allows no compromises. The existence of a civil, secular sphere of life where one can escape religion is unacceptable to them — and that’s why, in the end, their most basic goal is to eliminate that sphere by any means necessary.

ladyinred
02-07-2007, 04:31 AM
http://atheism.about.com/od/gaymarriage/a/underminine.htm
they stop at nothing. It is typical that the religious right would find a scapegoat... Considering that marriage is still going strong in the world.And being 6 billion strong in terms of population I fail to see how a minority like gay people would have an effect on str8 marriages and their ability to have children.. the religious right are fundamentalists who seem to believe in the inerrancy of the bible, yet what is their reasoning based on..While I'm not atheist I studied enough to know that it is anything but inerrant. Yes I believe in a loving God, but I seriously doubt he condoned intolerance and slavery like it says he did in the old testament. I'm not trying to offend Christians here.. But do you honestly think a loving and just God would condone injustices like slavery and inhumanity? I often say man's inventions not God 's intentions.. Whose "morality" does that serve, God's or man's? I'm a strong supporter of civil rights and I don't believe women or minorities like blacks or gay people are inferior. That is just another excuse to justify oppression in the name of God.. I would never attribute that kind of thinking to God and personally think it is blasphemous.

novaseeker
02-07-2007, 09:39 AM
A very interesting article.

as if the choice was between Jerry Falwell and Richard Dawkins. It patently is not.

I agree with this, but the atheists are now on the march as well ... a new kind of fundamentalist atheism is finding a voice in people like Dawkins and Sam Harris. Harris believes that fundamentalism *is* religion, and that people who are not fundamentalists are simply people who do not believe everything their religion and its sacred books teach, and by clinging to the religion they empower and enable fundamentalists. Harris is wrong, generally because he himself is a fundamentalist when it comes to empiricism, but nevertheless the new voices of atheism are harsh ones that are critical of anyone who holds to a non-fundamentalist religious perspective.

andrewlittle
02-07-2007, 09:39 AM
Quoting Simon Barrow:
Both these definitions are problematic, because they superimpose a term which actually arose in a specific setting (early twentieth century American Protestantism, in its response to the rise of modernism) onto the whole gamut of religious expression. We must face the fact that the earlier, specific meaning of the word is now probably irrecoverable as a discreet definition...
This is always true when labels become the primary method of identifying participants (or non-participants, I guess) in a disagreement. What is true of "fundamentalist" is also true of "liberal", "conservative", "progressive", "moderate", "evangelical", and many others. In each and every case, the original meaning has become muddied by the variety of uses each has endured.
The five ‘fundamentals’ annunciated by US Presbyterians in (and subsequently articulated in twelve volumes called The Fundamentals, 1910-1915) are: the infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture, the virginal conception/deity of Christ, penal substitutionary atonement, Christ’s bodily resurrection, and the facticity of the miracles. The ‘personal return’ (second coming) of Christ is usually added.
Presbyterians, having "settled" their own problems with New School-Old School controversies, actually responded to an ongoing debate in Reformed circles that was related to arguments about, and within, Unitarianism. Traditional Congregational churches were challenged by rationally-disciplined Unitarianism, while the Unitarian movement grew increasingly disquieted with the "heretical" New England Transcendentalists centered around Ralph Waldo Emerson. The Presbyterian General Assembly overstepped its authority and made a declaration establishing the Five Fundamentals of Christian faith, but then immediately began backtracking from the "essential" nature of the declaration.

As it turned out, only those who held a "dispensationalist" or "pre-millenial" view supported the Fundamentals. This led to a split (yet again) in which the Fundamentalist Presbyterians appealed to Baptists for comradery. It can be rightly said, I think (and I am Presbyterian) that the Presbyterians muddied the water, added fuel to the fire, and then stepped back and began pointing fingers at those who continued to hold the views they had so mistakenly proposed.

As a result, the "second coming" has been inextricably intertwined with "Fundamentalism" and was the single most important unifying doctrine. As Barrow rightly points out, people who hold to all of the tenets of Fundamentalism can be found within every denomination, and virtually everyone and every church in mainline Christianity adhers to at least one or two.
... it must be recognised that convictions about being the recipient of un-mediated truth, when combined with the view that ‘error has no rights’, leads frequently, if not unassailably, to totalitarianism. ...‘classical’ formula has been further revised in the direction of a violent, vindicatory apocalyptic that validates divinely mandated victory for the carriers of a particular viewpoint.
LEFT BEHIND series as has been discussed in other threads. This series of books can be found in most mainline church libraries, which shows just how "un-thinking" many people are with regard to theological issues.
The terms ‘conservative’, ‘traditional’ and ‘orthodox’ – as well as ‘evangelical’ and ‘radical’ – are also frequently used, incorrectly, as definitive for an understanding of fundamentalism in contemporary discourse.
We have to become more creative, and exacting, in our use of descriptors and labels. We are not the only ones who have difficulty understanding the meaning of the labels. People who self-identify with one or more of these names generally do not know the theological and social baggage the names carry. If we attack a "name", therefore, we attack large groups of people who are unaware of the negatives associated with the title.
Deep engagement with scripture and with the interpretative, communal and life skills it requires of us is something the churches generally under-emphasise. The biblical language is of “inspiration”, divine wisdom working with, in and through the mind and the heart, rather than over and against these things. Amen ... Amen ... Amen. The Bible as the solution, rather than the enemy. The task is to teach people about the complexity and subtlety of scripture - not to dismiss it outright. Of course, that would require a Biblically educated clergy and laity - something the "liberal" churches have consistently moved away from in the last century. Theological discussion now occurs at judicatory levels, rather than in the pews. We've stripped the average church-goer of the very tool he/she needs to dismantle "popular" theology.
... many Christians pass through a ‘fundamentalist phase’, especially when they are young or new to the faith. Security and relationship are precisely what enable people to move beyond this stage, and to discover a rootedness which is about grace rather than self-assertion.
Many, many Christians, however, have simply stayed at this basic phase of faith development. The fault lies, in my opinion, directly with the mainline churches. Where are future Christians grown - in Sunday School and Youth Groups. Generally speaking (not always - there are definitely exceptions), the curriculum used has been easy for a teacher to use, which makes it also rife with over-simplification and "absolutes". The Christian Ed leaders, also generally, are those who themselves are less theologically mature, more dogmatic, and biblically unreflective. This is not an indictment of those who provide this service, but an indictment of the churches who have failed miserably in providing adequate training and oversight for this all-important function of the church. Christian Ed is usually an afterthought, not a primary function like worship.

I worked with two churches, recently, who have decried the lack of young adults in their pews - especially those that they raised as children. I asked them each to find as much old Christian Ed material as possible. Then I asked them to read the stuff they've been teaching their kids. They were appalled, but said they didn't know it was so simplistic and judgmental. I said, "Shame on you. That's what happens when you leave to to someone else." The truth is that, though Christian Ed, mainline churches (Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian, etc.) have been raising Baptists or [insert other denomination or church you feel is unhealthily rigid]. Then they wonder why the hell they go somewhere wlse when they grow up. The answer is that many are not given the opportunity to "grow up" in faith, because we do not give the attention to Christian Ed that it deserves.

Okay, that was a preach. Sorry.

I agree completely that the use of labels impedes dialogue. We have to name more concretely the tenets with which we disagree. We have to get specific and intentional. The church has to become more about education in all its aspects, and less about the individual "warm fuzzy" of a personal relationship with the idol we've created in our heads.

In order to right the wrongs that have endured so long, we have to learn and educate intentionally. This will take time - and lots of it. But, then again, maybe we're too busy to take the time. It's so much quicker to just bitch about it as we peruse the collateral damage of our own lack of involvment.

ladyinred
02-07-2007, 05:40 PM
I hope I didn't offend any one by saying I don't believe the bible is infallible.While I believe much of it is divinely inspired. I can't help but not ignore the passages I find appalling. I tend to hold views much like moderate or progressive Christians. The men who wrote much of the old testament were influenced by culture and other circumstances at the time and were not infallible in their knowledge of God. As man has developed more or progressed throughout history , we've changed our mind about many issues.. especially the ones that cause suffering for many people.. You will see the contrast with Jesus though about God and the traditions of the Pharisees in the new testament. Jesus often challenged them on many things , their practices, their form of worship, their views on the sabbath.. how they treated and viewed others.These also speaks of new understanding and progress.Jesus could be said to be quite the revolutionary in terms of religious thinking, because many of his teachings and ideas were a radical departure from the old way of thinking and the status quo and the so called religious ideals of his day.

ladyinred
02-07-2007, 05:50 PM
I had often wondered why the apostles in the new testament after Jesus's crucifixion and in later writings didn't condemn slavery as an abomination. I guess due to the time they were living in and the culture , it was still a widely accepted practice and they could do little to change the customs at the time. But they did try to maintain some equilibrium by admonishing that while a slave had certain responsibilities in his actions toward his master, that slave owners were not to be cruel in their treatment of their slaves. Not exactly what we would call ideal, but again due to the practices and customs still widely held and accepted as the norm during their time, at least an attempt to establish more humane treatment of slaves.

ladyinred
02-07-2007, 05:58 PM
I also believe that the human species is a progress in work, as we move away from brutality, violence and intolerance, injustice and oppression, we become more compassionate and strive to live by Christ's example.. I hope that makes sense.