me and my predicament [Archive] - Soulforce Community Forums

innout

02-19-2007, 08:25 PM

This is a letter I sent to Kate Burns:

Dear Kate Burns:

I am a gay man who is 44 years old. I recently watched the movie SHOCK TO THE SYSTEM and the extras on the dvd. One was about Soulforce. In my late 20s I found myself in need of religious services, which the Catholic church basically didn't and would't fulfill. I had several family members, uncle, grandparents die before their time slowly and was in need of faith. Unfortunately I found myself involved in born again churches. I believe there is some good in every church and therefore I did get some good out of it. I ended up in three different churches to see if the next one would be better than the one before it. What I found was fake, phoney, and cold. I live on Long Island one of the coldest places in the world and I'm talking about the weather.

Recent events have made me come out to my family. I seemed to accept that I was gay and truthfully I may not have. I hate it. I hate being gay and I hate myself. I sought therapy for many years and saw two therapists, one for 13 years, one for two and one for a few months. The last two advocated my going out there and getting involved. At first, this seemed okay as I had started to do this slowly even before their recommendation. I joined an Out group, I went to clubs and gay bars, I made gay "friends" and went to gay "dinners" to meet people. I wrote letters to church groups that were gay friendly and I offered to volunteer. What I found might surprise you and your group.

What I found was that the gay community is really very much like the born again one. Outsiders often don't fit in. If one is not great looking, well built, outgoing, handsome, sexual, and basically tall and well built...or even just average, one is not going to fit in and one is not going to get returned phone calls or invites. I realize that like myself, the gay community has some mental problems to overcome, mostly due to the prejudice society has imposed. But what I found was that the gay community on LI was not friendly. When Chad Allen on the dvd talks about love and a family in the gay community I know he did not mean on LI. LI is one of the unfriendlist places ever and the gay community echoes even more so. I am currently isolated from the gay community completely. I continued to try: I went to gay bowling, I went to a gay church group (frankly the church was nice but after my horrorendous born again experiences---I saw two church groups shut down and saw the literal hatred of the other and to say I was involved means I was: I was in the TV ministry using their cameras). So I don't think I'm really ready, if I ever will be is doubtful, to go to a formal church ever again.

What's more I found that most gay men (the women I seem to relate to more but even as I met more lesbians at gay bowling, they seemed pretty intent on passing me off to phone numbers to clubs and guys rather than being my friend) were interested in only a few things: Sex, drugs, sex, good looks, dancing, sex, and more drugs. Phone calls were not returned, promises to get me into volunteer groups not followed through on, and basic niceness not adhered to. What was worse was that at gay dinner groups I was ignored or talked to about problems people had. I met many older gay men who seemed sadder and more alone and isolated from the gay community than I was. I met one old man who ran the dinner group and he basically told me he was ostracized by the gay community too. On the flip side of this, I met this guy who was tall, good looking, well built, and somewhat outgoing. He got from the gay community all his needs met (and most of the time, sex wise he would never met the other person's needs). In short he was shallow and selfish...THAT is what the gay community on LI values. He's had much sex (as most gays seem to do here) despite calling on me for help when he's in trouble. The one time I called on him for help he got mad at me. What's worse, he seemed desparate to insult me in subtle ways, discouraging me and comparing himself to me and bragging about his sexual conquests, telling me how he's not into short guys and guys my age. He was about six years younger than I.

One of the guys who ran the volunteer group in the area I knew before he came out and before I came out. I sent him an email. He never answered it.

So now I am here, watching your documentary and stunned at how others can have great relationships in the gay world while I just sort of wile away my time, isolated and not involved in the gay world at all. I find it all smacking of born again hypocrisy.

I once saw Matthew's Shepard's mother speak and had some questions for her which I never got to ask but that's not important now.

If you have any advice forme, I'd love to hear it. I'm lonely and upset that others can pursue this lifestyle, while I cannot, despite my having come out (coming out made almost no difference to my life one way or the other).

Basically my life sucks, I hate myself and and my life and wish to God every night I do not wake up on Earth and every morning, when I do,I wish to God I would just die there on the spot. If being gay means me continuing to try events that never bear fruit or never amount to anything, than I wish even more so that I would just die. It is too bad I do not believe in suicide nor would I ever do that to my famly, because more than ever I want to leave this Earth, more than ever do I feel it is over for me, my life is wasted. I guess I'm just not young enough oir hip enough for the gay community. There's probably so much I've left out but you get the disillusioned idea I have of the gay community on LI. It's selfish and sex centered.

Daniel

02-19-2007, 09:49 PM

Hi Innout- Welcome to Soulforce.

You've written what amounts to a very powerful letter, one which I read as a cry for help.

I'm not a therapist, but you know what? What I'd like to tell you is, despite all that you say, being gay hardly seems the core issue that you are dealing with. Your letter comes across here as if you are someone who is profoundly upset and yes- even depressed. And I gotta tell you: how in heavens name would you expect that kind of energy to attract anyone?

There isn't any magic pill you can take, no incantations to say, but I can say that, having had a few long term relationships, and a husband of 15 years, having a prince means being a prince. Sounds simple. But the truth is that is takes a great deal of courage to make the changes you already know you need to make to have the life that you want. OTHER PEOPLE ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. Sorry. But that's the hard truth. NEITHER ARE YOU THE PROBLEM. YOU NEED TO GET OFF THE VICTIM OR VICTIMIZER WHEEL.

If you look deep within yourself- and this may take some doing- some kind of spiritual practice- you will find a person who is blessed and loved. But you will have to quiet your mind to experience this person. And only that person can help you. Not some therapist. Not some person on the web. The answers are inside you. You will know what to do- and even how to do it- when you calm your mind and listen to the truth in your own heart. You will know who to talk to and who to say 'no thanks' too.

You'll need to clean up your antennae so that you can send and receive messages from your own intuition. You might say that's the Holy Spirit talking to you. However you define it, this is a real experience. Some call it being in the zone, the sweet spot, the groove. What hardly anyone talks about however, is that this groove takes practice, just like a good athlete. As they say in the music world: "Practice make permanent". Having a spiritual practice that attunes you to your inner world can only help you. This means something more than showing up for a service. This means quieting the mind, dealing with one's own projections and negative stuff.

It really is about listening to that Still Small Voice. But how can you hear it, when all you can hear it your own painful cries?

Get still my friend. Get calm. Love is there for you. It is your very Self.

andrewlittle

02-19-2007, 10:00 PM

It isn't because you're gay that my heart cries. It is for the loneliness you are experiencing. It sounds remarkably similar to many, many other people (of which I have been one) from just as many different walks of life, sexualities and areas. The desolation I hear in your words is heart-rending.

I have no doubt that the isolation you are feeling may be complicated or worsened because you are gay, but is your gayness the cause? It would seem that, if you limit your attempts to find friendship to areas that are organized for glbt specifically, the line (which tends to be fuzzy, anyway) between seeking friends and finding lovers runs the risk of becoming extremely confused.

Forgive me, if you can, for using myself as an example, especially since I am not gay.

After a nasty divorce, from a long term marriage, just a few years ago, I experienced soul-crushing loneliness. I was not much younger than you are, but looked substantially older because of the effects of previous bouts of drug abuse, alcoholism and extreme over work. On top of my rather haggard appearance was the issue of hating who it was that I saw in the mirror every day. I disgusted myself, basically. I also suffered depression for many years, but was too stubborn or scared to seek help for it, and that also played into my interaction with others.

Because I was lonely, and because workmates invited me, I constantly went to bars (meat markets, really) and many other gatherings of single people. The common denominator, I eventually found out, was that everyone was looking for the quick fix for something, just as I was - most of the time it was loneliness for them, also. The big problem was, however, that not only wasn't I all that attractive to begin with, but I would wear my self-loathing on my face like a flashing neon sign. It's not a good look, even for a one night stand.

I ended up withdrawing completely, and even failed at an attempt at suicide. It slowly dawned on me, with the help of counseling (that I wasn't particularly thrilled about in the first place), that I went looking for companionship - some kind of personal, social interaction to releive the loneliness - in the very places where competition for attention is the strongest. I could not have put myself in worse places to get rejected.

I distrusted organized religion, and had spent a few years away from church because of it, and so could not stomach the idea of starting to go to church. Besides that, the thought of going to church to find someone to like me seemed about as needy as I could possibly get.

Anyway, I started volunteering at a soup kitchen once every two weeks, because my shrink told me that it might be good to engage insomething where the attention and purpose had to do totally with someone other than myself. Through that I started talking, not just with the people who ate there, but also with others who served there. I got invited to help out a little at a clothing mission that was in a church. From there I met others - others who I wasn't meeting because I was lonely or because I wanted a date. The topics never came up. Eventually one of them invited me to church because their church was "the furthest thing from organized you could imagine."

Anyway, I'm hoping there's some similarity in this long post to let you know that you are not alone, and that what you are experiencing is not simply because you are gay. I would feel privileged to exchange e-mails or private messages should there be any resonance or familiarity or interest in what I have said. If there is nothing in this post that draws you, at all, then just remember that I will pray for you as a brother and unknown friend.

scott snedeker

02-19-2007, 10:31 PM

Dear innout,

Sometimes it takes a special person to help you make the connection with unconditional love of self. Your negative feelings toward yourself are not your fault but they are your responsibility. take baby steps. Fear is what kept you in the closet.

I suggest trying a Reiki circle. It is the path of my strongest connection with unconditional love of self and others. I'll bet you will be amazed. The love I feel brings me to life.

welcome, this is a sanctuary with great love for you.

belladonnacordial

02-19-2007, 10:42 PM

Hello and welcome to the forum,

I have been a bit hesitant to reply because I hardly knew where to start. Clearly you are unhappy. I have no wish to seem harsh or add to your problems. I'd truly like to help.

I wish I could tell you there is a quick fix or a cure for unhappiness. I'm guessing that it took a number of years to reach this level of unhappiness. It will take time to find happiness again.

It sounded from your letter as if you expect to meet people who will make you happy. That isn't how happiness works though. You have to take the steps and do the hard work and make yourself happy.

What scared me the most is when you talk about hating yourself and wanting your life to be over. Do you take good care of yourself? Do you eat healthy? Take vitamins every day? Make sure you get enough sleep? You really do have to find a friend in yourself before you can find friends in other people and love yourself before you can love someone else. Start treating yourself as you would treat your best friend and your lover.

It sounds like various causes are all working in tandem adding to your unhappiness. I get the impression for example that you are not happy with your appearance or where you live. You can take steps each day to improve these things and therefore make yourself a bit happier each day in the process.

To work on your appearance consider joining a gym or your local Y, or yoga or spin classes if that is more your style. At very least walk an hour every day. Exercise not only yields a positive physical change, it improves your health, makes you feel good, gives you energy, and lets off a lot of steam. It will help you to start feeling better about yourself immediately.

Think about where you would like to live, somewhere warmer? A place you visited that you'd like to see again? A place you've only read about or have seen in a movie? Do internet research on the sort of place you'd like to live.

If you already know of somewhere you want to go, figure out what it would take to get you there. Maybe you can transfer in your current job. Start the planning phase, check your finances and make lists of what you would need to do. Maybe you are renting now, don't have much to take, have sufficient money in saving and could move anytime. Maybe moving would be a very involved process for you and would have to become a longterm goal, one you'd have to work toward.

Sometimes just taking the steps to improve our lives can work wonders to help shake off the feeling that things will never change and never get better. I think you have come to a good place to find support and friendship. I wish you well and look forward to talking more in the future.

Best wishes, Donna

Zerbie

02-20-2007, 01:13 AM

Dear InOut,

You've found a welcoming "place" in this forum. I too wish you well and hope that the loneliness ebbs and the negativity gets tossed out the window. It can take work. It sounds a lot like you might be suffering from depression - which can be treated and helped.

Now. I wasn't there with you at those dinners or whatever, so it could be you are projecting negativity and that turned people off. OR you could be dead-on accurate about the shallowness you perceive. There is a lot of stupid shit in the gay community just as there is in the rest of the world. There are a lot of shallow people. There ARE guys who write off every guy who isn't model gorgeous and every guy over 35, and ya know what? They're shallow. That is SO unattractive. But there ARE gay folk out there who are caring people, loving friends, who are not shallow. Like with any other social world, it can take time to find people and get to know them well. Once we're grown up and out of school, it can be very hard to get a close-knit circle of friends - people are busy with their own lives, busy workdays, etc. Don't give up.

I suggest you get screened for a depression, 'cause you sound in a very low place right now. You simply must NOT hate yourself. God loves you enough to put you on this earth and keep giving you breath - if God loves you, who are you NOT to love what God loves? Depression is treatable. Please don't suffer unnecessarily.

Please. I wish you well. I know that God loves you and wishes you joy and fulfilment. Please don't blame the problems in your life on you being gay - if people are shallow, that's because human beings can be shallow shits sometimes, and that has nothing to do with gay/ straight, that's just a human weakness. Please take care of yourself and value yourself. Come back and post us an update. You've found a lot of caring people here who wish you the best.

:pray: :pray: :pray:

shadeseraph

02-20-2007, 11:41 AM

Dear brother:

I read your message and can sympathize somewhat with the frustration. However, I might think it unfair to blame being gay for superficiality and the frustration. Heterosexual and homosexual alike have to work at relationships and superficial people are to be found in all. Generally in our society as a whole it seems to take effort to reach and communicate at depth. Our community of gays comes in all shades, sizes and temperaments just like the rest of humanity. We ourselves have to be careful of stereotyping. It is true, though, because we are not the majority of the population there is generally more effort required, it seems, to find like company and establish something ongoing and meaningful. We must face we live in a discriminatory society and it does have its effect on us positive and negative. However,hating oneself will lead to hating others. I am sure you have a lot to give but you may be concentrating to much on your neediness. There is deep loneliness and frustration among heterosexuals too. Generally in our society it seems we need to work at really loving one another. I am so sorry you are having such a shadow experience. But I do agree you have to lift your heart some if you wish to really get closer to others. No one has an excuse to be rude gay or straight. I remember, by the way, walking into a bar for lack of a better choice the first time and thinking to others, "well...here I am!" and was somewhat disappointed and daunted by the atmosphere and a seeming "blah" response. Then I had to remember, people are people. Not everyone is going to love us and EVERYONE HAS A LOVE MAP of sorts. It is human that some want tall, short, muscular, average, Asian, or Latin. We are wonderfully varied in tastes just like the foods we eat and the arts that we love or don't love. Some like rap, Gospel, or opera and some hate it. I can testify after being a massive gay March that love DOES come in all shapes and sizes. Couples you wouldn't dream of having come together and it was beautiful to see. But...we, anyone...must get past the superficial and strive to make a deeper connection. I believe this is the challenge for all society and not just gay. Perhaps praying a little for those who have hurt and rejected you may be a start. Sometimes we ourselves tend to misjudge others and there intentions. I will say a little prayer, too, for you that your needs be met.

Peace,
shadeseraph
________
Best vaporizer temp (http://vaporizer.org/reviews)

u-dog

02-20-2007, 12:31 PM

I put off writing a response to you INNOUT because I just didn't know where to start. I felt badly, but it turns out to have been the right thing because I could not have said it any better than these other folks have done. I have been where you are now also and I know that it sucks. Let me just add my prayers and support to their wise words.

Dave

tpdncr4christ

02-20-2007, 01:09 PM

!!! I am so sorry!

Welcome to SoulForce, it is a safe place. A loving place, nothing to be afraid of. Except maybe some of the olderguy's humor... that can get pretty scary sometimes...

Any way, this is such a cool place, because whenever you don't feel like loving yourself, we will love you all the more. All those nasty moments when you just don't want to be here, now you can think of us. We will love you and support you and be here for you, cause we're :cool: like that. Yeah...

That's the cool thing about love, the more you give away, the more you get.

Welcome to SoulForce. It is a safe place, a loving place. There is nothing to be afraid of here.

<3 Austin

u-dog

02-20-2007, 01:21 PM

Except maybe some of the olderguy's humor... that can get pretty scary sometimes...

I can just FEEL the love Austin, thanks <hrumpphh... Olderguys indeed!> ;)

nmwolfboy

02-20-2007, 02:18 PM

Welcome, Innout. There's little that i can add which hasn't already been written by others in response to your intro. Please know that many people, whether gay, straight, bi or trans, have felt the kind of pain & despair you relate. You are not alone.

I'm sure it seems that there is nothing ahead for you than what you've already found & felt, but the fact that you've reached out & shared yourself with us shows to me that hope for something else still is part of your spirit.

Please, keep sharing with us. i've found the folks here to be warm & caring. Not a week goes by that doesn't include a post from someone that just sends my thoughts off in directions i've never imagined before.

Again, you are welcome here.

-scott

innout

02-24-2007, 12:14 PM

Scott, what's a Reiki board?

Thanks for the responses

innout

02-24-2007, 12:23 PM

Thnis is the second time I"m writing this. Where to rewrite? First, the gym. I've been going for 8 or longer years. Since my breathing problems started a year or two ago, thanks to being forcemoved to a new room at work, I've not been able to go steady for any amount of time. Genetically I don't think I'm capable of it. When I do go, my breathing gets worse and I tend to hurt myself in jionts and places that are not supposed to hurt. I've had trainers and even joined a program with others (that I couldn't keep up with).

Things get better going to the gym, yeah, but for me, they also get worse.

As far as moving. Yeah I'd love to but since being so unhappy I spend compulsively and to pay off my large debts I have to keep my current job at my current pay...to move away from this physically and emotionally cold LI place I'd need money and to pay my debts I need money. Ijust had to buy a new car (lease actually) and that takes moneyh. I can't just leave my job and go find another and lower paying one. That would make me worse. I'm trapped !

innout

02-24-2007, 12:36 PM

Zerbie

02-24-2007, 12:57 PM

I know I'm not Scott, but Reiki is an "energy healing" technique. It sounds worth a shot!

Back to the point:

Innout, you need a plan.

I'm guessing first, you need a debt-payment plan. There is a lot of advice to be found on that, on the internet, in books, whatever. Make a plan to pay down those big debts and stick to it - WATCH 'EM WITHER AWAY. Each time you get rid of a big chunk you will feel better. When those debts get small, then you can plan ahead to finding a new place to live, OR a more fulfilling job, as it sounds like your current one is not a fit for you.

I'd also look into finding some solution if your workspace is causing or aggravating a breathing problem. Can something be done to eliminate the problem? Are you exposed to a chemical? Too much dust? What?

I also hope you are pursuing every possible angle to manage your health. Breathing is NUMBER ONE! When breathing is troubled, everything is wrong. It's just paramount! Breathing problems are dangerous. Get that taken care of.

If your doctor gives you the go-ahead, I recommend you find an experienced, qualified yoga instructor and take some classes. Provided your doctor okays it, the breathing exercises and restorative poses from a yoga practice might be just the right thing for easing imbalanced muscles around the joints, calming you down and helping you feel better. Ask your doc about yoga.

For right now, maybe some of your favorite music could lift your spirits .

Make a workable plan for positive change, and write it out in baby-size steps, so it doesn't look impossible to actually do. I guarantee if you do nothing, things will continue this way. But if you change something, even one thing, for the better, you will find yourself on an upward spiral. Do something to uplift your heart and do it today.

:pray:

scott snedeker

02-24-2007, 02:19 PM

Scott, what's a Reiki board?

Thanks for the responses

A Reiki Circle is a form of Japanese Healing meditation by channeling spiritual healing energy from the Source Energy (God if you will) through the Reiki Master in to you by touch. The Unity Church usually has Reiki Circles in your area.

My Reiki healers have shown me how to connnect with the unconditional love of my self through Meditation amd Healing touch. The Metaphysical beliefs are not important so don't get hung up on them. Just go with it. In the first 30 min I find it an effort to focus on the relaxing guided imagery of the Reiki Master because of my racing thoughts and concerns. But with focus and allowing yourself to receive their love energy and compassion, all of the noises and worries fade out of my thoughts. I believe that it is in fact a form of hypnosis because I usually dream freeform during the circle. Many people weep their first time because of the release of their emotional barriers. Don't worry. It is a safe place. No money is required but a "love gift " is Customary -about five dollars.

After waking I am in a state of relaxed euphoria and feel like I am in an afterglow following orgasm that lasts for hours or days. Everyone else is too so there is a connection of unconditional love that ripples back and forth.

I have been going to Reiki for 6 months. about every 2 weeks. I have gone from being hard on myself, disappointed with what I am not achieving, and unappealing and unfeeling to others, to being at peace loving myself which then naturally extends to others. I am happy being me. I practice feeling love toward myself and each person I meet. Most of the time they can sense this and they return it. My Pagan meets Buddhist thread is a recent example.

The Key is for someone to show you how to connect with the unconditional love of self. Then the rest follows. People sense this and are attracted to you--and ironically it happens only when you really don't need it anymore!---but you do like it!

Try a Reiki circle. Your inner being loves you even if you don't feel it right now. You are entitled to connect with it . My signature on all my posts was inspired after my first Reiki healing meditation. I hope you do try a Reiki circle and find connection to the love that your inner being has for you.

As for me, my three lovers and I are even more spiritually connected than ever! In our world love is everywhere! Because we feel it within.

All you truly possess is your perception of reality. This is your world. allow random events to direct your focus and your world is chaotic.
Direct your Focus on love of self, beauty and joy and you create a better world for you.

Daniel

02-24-2007, 06:26 PM

....and that something isn't other people!

Inout- Scotty and Andrew have great suggestions (especially the one about helping someone else- volunteering is good medicine- nothing puts our problems in perspective like another persons situation- one which is far less pleasant than our own). And Zerbie has a great point too: make a plan regarding finances. Get some books by Suze Orman. She talks good stuff. Spending starts because one feels empty. Something has to fill the hole in the soul. What's it gonna be? Stuff or real nurturing?

This conversation reminds me of a law of physics: "Things in motion tend to stay in motion." You are going to have to take a great deal of action to get yourself moving in a better/different direction. Life is not going to come to you, served up on a platter. If you feel trapped and stuck, make a plan to deal with things and stick to it. You've now written a second message where the focus is on how everyone around you is not measuring up to your expectations. Well. What's up with that?

And what about prayer? Do you see yourself in your prayers as being the person you want to be- being with the kind of person you want to be with? It may sound nuts, but God can't give us something we don't think we deserve- unconsciously that is. If there is a thought buried deep inside you- 'running you'- and that message is in opposition to your actions- it's time to deal with the matter.

scott snedeker

02-24-2007, 11:07 PM

Dear Innout,

Valley of the Dolls runs contiuously through my head while rereading your post. There is great love for you in Daniel's, Zerbie's and my words. My question is: Can you feel it in the words?

If not, don't feel like a failure. It may be just another representation of the profound degree of your condition.

You are worthy of the love in our words even if you don't believe you are entitled.

Being depressed and emotionally needy tends to push people away because it may be overwhelming to anyone who is not a professional. I have been a physician for 16 years and have treated depression in hundreds of people. pharmaceuticals such as zoloft help a great deal and get momentum toward healing going by restoring depleted brain chemistry closer to normal levels after 3-4 weeks. And don't worry. There is no lethal dose or permanent adverse effect of zoloft or any of the other modern antidepressants. If you take a whole bottle you will get sick but you won't die.

Then the real healing starts with a good therapist and perhaps some other venue to see yourself as lovable and worthy and to put joy back into days that have become joyless. Don't deny yourself any path to comfort. You are entitled to use every resource you have to get well.

NathanATX

02-26-2007, 10:17 AM

wow, things just don't work for me, be it vcrs, dvd-converters players, whatever--I've had to log in SIX times before this worked. If it works. anyway, what was I wanting to post?

Maybe I haven't given the impression in my letter that I've tried. I've met some truly nice seeming people in the gay community, which is all the more puzzling because they again make promises they don't keep, don't return phone calls, and pretty much tell you , yoiu're on your own after giving you the impression that they are going to "hang out" with you. WTheck is that about?

I also feel bad but it IS the gay community that badly reflect the outside hetero world and in a worse way: if anything they should be MORE open to outsiders and the lonliness factor but they aren't. In many ways they are worse. At least here on LI

First of all, welcome to Soulforce! I'm glad you're here.

Two things. First, there is a powerful book called "The Four Agreements" that you must read. (Also, I'd recommend "Beyond Postive Thinking." And if you're able, check out www.landmarkeducation.com (http://www.landmarkeducation.com) and sign-up for the introductory forum. It will change your life.)

Second. "Be the change you wish to see in the world." If you want the gay community to be more nurturing and authentic, then you must become more nurturing and authentic. Instead of taking what everyone does or doesn't do so personally, know that NOTHING anyone else does is about you. Start truly being concerned about others. If someone does something rude, think about why a person would do something like that. Forgive them. Be compassionate. Support people in their healing and transformation.

All of this mess you see around you is a wake-up call. Not only are you the only one responsible for your happiness, but it sounds like these people need you. Maybe God has you where you are for a reason?

Peace,
Nate

belladonnacordial

02-28-2007, 08:15 AM

Hi Innout!

I'm so glad you have come back to talk. I was worried that you wouldn't. I hope it helps to know that people care and truly want to help.

The most important thing is your health. If your job is causing breathing problems, your job is not worth it. Don't assume that you will find a worse job at a lower rate of pay. Put your resume out there. You might just find a better job, at a higher rate of pay in a part of the country you'll like a whole lot better with a lower cost of living. They might pay for your move. You never know until you try. The internet is a great resource. Investigate companies and organizations you might like to work for and submit your resume directly to their websites. Companys tend to keep your resume on file that way, and may not get back to you immediately but as jobs open up.

If you are like most of us, you can cut back on a lot of your spending by improving your quality of life. I gave up cable (and therefore TV since I live in the mountains) over twenty years ago and have never regretted all the time I spend doing other things. I do watch DVDs occasionally but check them out at the library. They don't cost me anything that way plus I have more time to return them.

Walking is great exercise, easy on the joints and the lungs. In the winter months consider indoor walking- museums and malls are great for this. Pack a lunch, take a water bottle, and leave your credit cards at home.

You can improve your nutrition by buying real food instead of the more expensive, preservative and additive laden, pre-processed stuff. Consider eating more vegetables and rice which are quick to cook, better for you, and cheaper than meat. If I know I'm going to have a busy week, I have a big cooking day on Sunday, separate everything into portions, then heat stuff up out of my freezer for quick meals.

You might also consider taking in a room-mate. That would cut your living expenses and provide you with some company. I suggest finding someone to whom you are not at all attracted. It would be unfair to place those kind of expectations on someone just looking for somewhere to live. Concentrate instead on finding someone responsible, stable, quiet, and tidy. Speaking from years of experience cohabitating with all sorts of people, the folks who make ideal neighbors always make the best house-mates.

Remember, if you can just improve one part of your life a little bit, it gets the ball rolling, and makes everything seem a little bit better. Sometimes it really helps to focus on all that is good about our lives too. If we only dwell on the negative, those problems can seem overwhelming. Next time, please tell us about all those aspects of your life that really make you happy.

Best wishes, Donna

innout

04-01-2007, 05:16 PM

Rick336

04-01-2007, 05:54 PM

Innout,

Sorry to hear that life sucks for you right now. Sounds like you're going through some tough times. I wish I knew what to say to make it better but a few words form a stranger is probably not going to do it.

I do know however that happiness comes from inside. I know that must sound like a Hallmark card but it's actually true. The key to a better life is a healthy self-esteem. It has nothing to do with the outside world or other people. It's all in how you see yourself.

My advice to you is to seriously work on elevating your self-esteem. Nathaniel Branden has written some great books on the power of self-esteem. He's done years of research on the subject and has been referred to by many psychologists as the "father of the self-esteem movement."

I highly recomend you check out his books. Borders and Barnes and Noble carry a selection.

I feel certain that if you improve your self-image that life will improve for you. You don't need to depend on others for your own happiness.

Whatever you decide to do, never give up. Everybody goes through tough times. That's just a part of life. It can be a roller coaster ride sometimes. That's for sure. But life can be very good too. It just takes a little work to make that happen.

There are many very caring and warm people in this group. Stick around and get to know us. :)

Rick

Diane Vera

04-01-2007, 07:02 PM

Dumb question: Have you discussed your breathing problems with your boss? Is it possible for you to work in a different part of the building?

Second, have you contacted the Long Island Crisis Center (http://www.longislandcrisiscenter.org/)? I just now found their site via Google, so I don't know if they would be able to help you in any way. But perhaps they might be able to refer you to a gay-friendly psychiatrist. Sounds to me like you're extremely depressed and possibly in need of medication. Also, here's an online Depression Support Community (http://dailystrength.org/support/Mental_Health_Addiction/Depression/?gclid=CLym0NzdoosCFQsEVAod8C8vkg) which you may or may not find helpful.

Third, how far out on the Island are you? Can you conveniently come into the city? If so, you might perhaps find the following links helpful:

The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Community Center (http://www.gaycenter.org/) at 208 West 13th Street in Manhattan. See especially the many different groups (http://www.gaycenter.org/group_index) that meet there. Most likely at least one of them isn't as shallow as the gay groups you've run into so far.
NYC Gay Counseling (http://gaygrouptherapy.com/?gclid=CIqSyb_ZoosCFRssVAodsyRxlA) (I just now found them via Google so I can't vouch for them.)
Oscar Wilde Bookshop (http://www.oscarwildebooks.com/) -- In particular, pick up a copy of the Gay Yellow Pages. You may find all sorts of useful things there, including possibly a good gay-friendly therapist.

Zerbie

04-01-2007, 07:26 PM

Daniel

04-01-2007, 07:54 PM

Nothing much has changed. It never does. I try to change things and they get worse so now I'm sort of just waiting...for nothing if not to die. I hate my life even more than before and hope that I die each night I go to sleep. I have failed myself and the gay community has failed me, the "professionals" who say they know it all, have also failed me. They don't know how to help me.

I agree with others here, expecially Zerbie, Rick and Diane. It sounds like you may be in need of medication (it has helped a great many people!) to deal with depression and issues of self esteem. Sounds like you need something to stop the negative cycle you are in.

When you say "Nothing much has changed. It never does." I have no doubt that you feel this way. Some of negative things we tell ourselves have their source in what others have said to us-and we have swallowed lock stock and barrel because we were too young to know any better. These thoughts can run us.

Now. What I am going to say here may sound very unpleasant to hear, much less contemplate: pain can be a motivator, that is, unless you've decided to give up totally. And if you are thinking about ending your life, you need to get yourself to a doctor right away. I think they call this hitting rock bottom. You might be there right now. And if so, there is no place but up. You've reached out here. That's a good sign. And you must keep reaching out until you find the help and assistance that you need.

I hear you loud and clear that the 'professionals' have failed you. But how many 'professional's' have you been to? One? Two? Three?

That's not enough. You have to keep at it until you find someone who you can trust...someone who you will allow to call you on your 'stuff' in a loving way. And if you can't trust anyone right now- then start there- acknowledge that that is an issue for you and start working on that.

Do you pray me friend? Have you asked the Universe, God or whatever you call it to show you a way out of the morass you are in? You don't have to believe in prayer to pray. You just have to want to get to a better place, and praying is like telling your brain to get ready to seek and be available for an answer, either from your inner intuitive voice or from the outer world when opportunity presents itself. But I can tell you, if you keep listening to that voice that tells you that nothing you do will help- guess what? Nothing you do will help. It becomes a self-fufilling prophecy. And you will miss and discount any help that comes your way.

~

Here's something to try:

A teacher of mine asks her students to take an hour each day and visualize (make into picture form) everything that they say or is said to them. Why? It teaches one to 'see' the motivation and source of one's thoughts. And in seeing one's mental habits, one can choose to change them for the better.

The motto of this site and nonviolience is this: "Be the change you seek." This can seem like a very hard thing to pull off, especially when one is in crisis. But it is worth striving for.

Please do not give up on yourself!

You are in my prayers.

Diane Vera

04-01-2007, 09:12 PM

As far as moving. Yeah I'd love to but since being so unhappy I spend compulsively and to pay off my large debts I have to keep my current job at my current pay

Maybe you should join Debtors Anonymous? There are several DA groups, along with a bunch of other 12-step program groups, that meet at the LGBT Community Center in Manhattan, listed here (http://www.gaycenter.org/groups/12step/12step).

scott snedeker

04-01-2007, 10:12 PM

innout

04-02-2007, 03:19 PM

Well first, I've been on meds in the past and while I finally found one that worked, it only worked for so long. We're talking years here.

Second, I do pray. It basically does nothing to change this horrid life. This has been this way for years.

Third, I'm sort of afraid to go to the city alone. I did go to the center and was told that I was seeing a good counselor, given a few numbers of others that didn't pan out (they wanted my money mostly and a lot of it), and was told to come to the center and sit there and read magazines. Someone might come along and start talking to me. WTheck?

ON top of that, i'm going to go to a bunch of strangers which I basically did here on LI and found a bunch of stuck up, sex crazed, self centered people who don't return phone calls and don't follow through on promises, want only tall good looking people who have sex all the time.

Fourth, counseling: I had some good ones but basically I don't think they know what to do to help me any longer. I tried a new one and he basically told me everything i told him only he put a more negative slant on it and gave me no hope only the hope of talking more and more to him, bragging that even though he was straight, he knew lots int he gay community and I was basically a big mess. I left him wanting to kill myself.

My self esteem? There is none. I don't like myself at all. I couldn't find one good thing about myself if I tried. Every night I hope to die in my sleep and wake up on the other side. I've found nothing to be happy about, nothing to live for, and this life is a waste of time. If God would only answer the one prayer I really wish he would: it would be to take me. I hate being gay. It's ruined my life. Along with a big dose of me, my family and the gay communmity and society in genreal. I so wish I could kill myslf but I can't.

Zerbie

04-02-2007, 03:25 PM

Fourth, counseling: I had some good ones but basically I don't think they know what to do to help me any longer. I tried a new one and he basically told me everything i told him only he put a more negative slant on it and gave me no hope only the hope of talking more and more to him, bragging that even though he was straight, he knew lots int he gay community and I was basically a big mess. I left him wanting to kill myself.

My self esteem? There is none. I don't like myself at all. I couldn't find one good thing about myself if I tried. Every night I hope to die in my sleep and wake up on the other side. I've found nothing to be happy about, nothing to live for, and this life is a waste of time. If God would only answer the one prayer I really wish he would: it would be to take me. I hate being gay. It's ruined my life. Along with a big dose of me, my family and the gay communmity and society in genreal. I so wish I could kill myslf but I can't.

Awright I'll GIVE you something to like about yourself. You're strong enough to endure this. You have not killed yourself, that means you have NOT given up. You're strong and you stick things out. Like that.

So you've tried some therapists and they sucked. Try another. and another. Somewhere out there in this world there is someone worthy of trust. You haven't talked to all 6 billion people. Keep trying.

I guarantee if you don't keep trying things will remain the same.

innout

04-02-2007, 03:53 PM

Thanks.

Also, and don't take offense at this, cause I tend to think people are trying to tell me things they might not be: Is this meant to describe me?

"Never linger too long with the ignorant,
throw stones at their talk.
Walk only with the lovers,
the mirror of the soul gets rusty when
dipped in muddy water."

Just wondering.

u-dog

04-02-2007, 03:56 PM

Innout,

That tagline has been on Zerbie's posts since well before Christmas. Its on all of her posts. It has nothing to do with you personally.

innout

04-02-2007, 03:59 PM

Yeah, I figured that, thanks. Just that I equate myself with the muddy water and the ignorant (I just don't know how to feel knowledgable about being gay and making things better when whatever action i take just makes things get worse). sorry about that.

Diane Vera

04-02-2007, 04:14 PM

Well first, I've been on meds in the past and while I finally found one that worked, it only worked for so long. We're talking years here.

Maybe a different med will work for you now. Your psychiatrist may need to experiment with a number of different meds until one is found that works. Different people react differently to different meds.

Third, I'm sort of afraid to go to the city alone.

In NYC, violent crime has gone way down in recent years. There's much less to be afraid of now than there might have been years ago.

I did go to the center and was told that I was seeing a good counselor, given a few numbers of others that didn't pan out (they wanted my money mostly and a lot of it), and was told to come to the center and sit there and read magazines. Someone might come along and start talking to me. WTheck?

You were told this by whom? A person at the front desk? Or someone in one of the many groups that meet there? Whoever told you the above, please do not consider that person to be representative of all the many, many, different groups that meet at the Center.

ON top of that, i'm going to go to a bunch of strangers which I basically did here on LI and found a bunch of stuck up, sex crazed, self centered people who don't return phone calls and don't follow through on promises, want only tall good looking people who have sex all the time.

Please don't assume that every group is like that. However, it looks like the main kind of group you need right now is a support group for people coping with depression. Offhand, I don't find such a group which meets at the Center. But I would suggest that you also attend one of the "Debtors Anonymous" groups which do meet at the Center. (See one of my previous posts for a link.)

Rick336

04-02-2007, 04:27 PM

Innout,

I know that when you're depressed it's difficult to get motivated to make changes. But please try.

You say you don't like yourself at all. Ask yourself these questions.

Am I an honest person?
Do I care about others?
Do I never take advantage of people?
Am I a hard worker?

If you can answer yes to these questions then there's a damn good reason to feel good about yourself. If you answer no to these questions then it's easy to make the simple changes until the answer is yes.

I don't know you. But I can already tell by the words you've written on this forum that you are very good at expressing yourself. You've got a knack at putting words together to reveal your inner thoughts. Just by the way you punctuate your writing tells me that you're intelligent.

It's obvious that you're an intelligent person. This is another good reason to feel good about yourself. You are smart.

I think intelligence is a very good reason to feel that you are a worthy person. An intelligent, honest, good person has more of a reason to feel good about himself than any of those men out there who are playing games and are being dishonest.

Don't discount your qualities just because you're going through a rough time in your life. Take a good look at yourself and I'm sure you'll see the real you. Not what you think others think you are but what you really are.

And if you see yourself as a person who has made some mistakes, so what? That's a good thing. It means you're normal. Remember, everybody is fallible. Everybody makes mistakes. There are six-billion of us on this planet and all six-billion of us make mistakes daily. All six-billion of us make mistakes in judgement all the time. ALL of us.

Don't give yourself a hard time.You're just like the rest of us. You're a fallible, normal, human being. And I know about fallible human beings because I'm one of them.

I'm intrested in hearing more about you. Tell us about the things in life that you enjoy even if it's simple, everyday stuff.

Rick

Zerbie

04-02-2007, 10:32 PM

Rick - that's so true! Hey Innout, look back at what Rick said - he's right, it's obvious that you are very smart and very good at expressing yourself. Add that to your list of attributes! There are plenty of reasons for you to like yourself. :)

No, that "signature" poem is not directed at you. It's one of my favorite poems of all, and I attached it as a signature to all my posts (it goes on automatically; I don't have to remember to type it in - in fact, I have forgotten it's there, so used to seeing it.) As someone else said, I've had it for a while - maybe a year? I forget.

I'm sorry you see yourself as the "muddy water." I recommend searching until you find a therapist or counselor you really trust to help you delve in to *why* you see yourself that way. You don't sound ignorant to me. You sound like you're in terrible pain. I hope you will find a way out of that pain, but not being qualified to counsel people, plus not knowing you, I have no idea what to suggest other than keep taking care of yourself and reaching out for help from people who are qualified.

Please keep trying - have you been to a psychiatrist recently? Did you get a diagnosis? it really sounds like a serious depression, but I'm just a layperson - all I know is that you talk about hating yourself and wanting to die, and that is scary. Please get responsible help! Dear Innout, you have positive attributes. Like who you are. You're a smart, expressive, strong, endurant guy. Live. Get well. Be able to feel joy, happiness, and pleasure again. :pray:

innout

07-12-2007, 11:44 PM

Zerbie

07-13-2007, 11:46 AM

well here I am, much later and not much has changed. I've found some nice gay guys but they all seem so unconnected to me and to each other in many many ways. They seem so...selfish and self absorbed and interested only in sex and looks, most of them. More promises but no real follow through. Again, I wish I were gay, I wish I were not alive. It's all the same really and will be this way till I die. Whichb I wish were tonight.

Dear Innout,

Please find help! Please! It scares me to see you posting that you want to die tonight. If you are thinking you want to die tonight, please call a crisis hotline or emergency number.

My guess as a layperson is you are enduring a serious depression - but what you need is not guesses, you need a a qualified professional who KNOWS how to help you. It is not normal to feel this way all the time. If you do, it means something has happened to you, and with help, you can find out WHAT and FIX IT.
Fixing it really does feel better than enduring this hell you're in.

Call your doctor and ask for help. S/he may give you a referral to a mental health professional if s/he thinks you are suffering a serious depression. There are ways to treat depression (and other troubles, if it turns out to be something else). Since it has gone on a long time, be willing to try any medications a qualified mental health professional prescribes - after feeling sad and despondent for a long time, the brain learns to keep making itself sad and despondent, which is why psychiatrists prescribe drugs. You do NOT have to suffer like this for the rest of your life. You do NOT have to endure this.

You have come here. That shows you are willing to reach out. I'm so glad. :love: Now please keep going by asking for help from those who are ABLE to really help you. Please call your doctor, say, "Hey, I'm suffering, my life is an emotional hell, I think about dying all the time, what can we try to help me?" and see what your doc suggests.

Please call today before the weekend starts. I want to see you being helped and feeling better.
:pray:

u-dog

07-13-2007, 11:53 AM

Zerbie is RIGHT, Innout this isn't going to get better by itself. It isn't going to get better by just talking about it. It's going to get better with a combination of drugs, talk therapy, and other treatment options.

This isn't about the shallowness of other gay people ITS ABOUT YOUR BRAIN AND ITS DEPRESSION. Please get help now! YOu DON"T have to feel this way. Start with a call to your doctor to get a referal. Follow up with a complete physical exam with a full blood work-up to check your hormone levels, blood sugar etc.

Life doesn't suck and you deserve to experience its "unsuckiness" for a change. Do something! :love::pray:

pnggrad79

07-13-2007, 12:34 PM

Innout,
First off, welcome to Soulforce. You will find great advice, wisdom, comfort and friends here. I was 41 when I came out after 12 years of wishing to God and praying that I be cured of being a lesbian. It was horrible. There is no greater tragedy than one believing he or she is not loved by God, and there is no greater untruth being spread out there that God does not love homosexuals.
It is simply not true and those people or beliefs telling you that you are not lovable, are toxic things and shouldn't be in your life.
You are loved, cherished and adored by God, so much so that when Jesus came and died for us, he actually died AS us-so that every gay man, every lesbian, every bisexual, every transgender died with Jesus. That means that God made a way through Jesus that everyone-not just straight people-could be saved. He loves you that much.
I agree with everyone who said to seek counseling. Seek out affirming gay people, because they, too, can be toxic. Find a good church that accepts you for who you are. Look on gaychurch.org and Whosoever for good articles and places to go. Whosoever is a magazine run by the daughter of a minister in South Carolina. She is a lesbian and calls herself a "recovering Southern Baptist". She is a great writer and I encourage you to write to her or her staff and she will be able to help you out in so many ways.
It will get better. I am glad you came here. We are here to help you and encourage you through this tough part of your life. Hang in there.

Peace and love to you:dove:

paul

07-13-2007, 01:27 PM

BrentRichards

07-13-2007, 03:30 PM

Hi Innout,

I just read through this whole thread and noticed it goes back to February. You show up every couple of months and say the same thing. I see the same people responding to you and extending their hearts to you, caring. I care also.

I understand being alone. I currently have 3 friends, none of them local and none I have ever met face to face. I am now making more, potentially wonderful, friends on this site. I have a love/hate relationship with the internet. The friends I have made in cyberspace are truly amazing and wonderful people, but it's normal to want face time vs. screen time. Still, this beats nothing by far. I'm very grateful for sites like this, they have the power to expand our worlds beyond Long Island or wherever we may be stuck.

Sweetheart, you don't want to die. If you did, you'd be dead by now. And I'm glad that you don't, because you have lots of value, you just need to realize it. What you really want is for the pain and lonliness to end, no? Well hell, that makes sense to me. Who want's to be lonely and in pain? You are going to have to help the process though, nobody can or will rescue you from your isolation. If you choose to isolate yourself because of disappointment, your lonliness will increase, not decrease.

You keep returning here because you have found people here who care about you. Each time you come back, they are here and they do respond, every time. They have all returned your emails or phone call (so to speak). I did a quick search and this is the only thread I found with your name on it, and besides the opening words in February, it's as though you just cut and paste what you've said before. May I suggest that you stick around? Give us the opportunity to get to know you because you are interacting in and around this site. Maybe change your name from Innout to just In :D. Can you see from a practical standpoint that you haven't given relationship a chance here? I think there's a couple of guys on this site who even met the love of their life here. But, you gotta invest yourself. Give as well as take, those are the rules of any relationship, as I'm sure you know. I know you are feeling down now and maybe feel like giving up on people, but the more you do, the sadder you will get. Try hangin here everyday and talking and listening and responding. Hope to see you around In.
one of your potential friends,
paul

Beautifully said, Paul.

And Inn ... I'll add my voice, both as one who has been a major depressive, and suicidal, as well as one who has been on the other end of that crisis phone line ... I worked with suicidally depressed individuals on a daily basis for years. One thing I learned, from their experience and my own, is that it is dangerously comfortable to just talk about hurting, wish to be better, and DO nothing about it. We can easily tell ourselves that calling the doctor, getting the counseling, taking the medicine, etc, probably won't help. But the fact is, we already know that doing what we're doing doesn't help. So time to do something else. So take the advice above. Call your doctor, or a crisis line, TODAY. NOW. And then do what they say. There are times, when depression has us all but non-functional, that we simply need to do as we're told. If we won't take the steps the pro's advise, there is little the amateurs (like us here on this site) can do for us. With the help of the pro's, the help of the amateurs (us again) becomes that much more powerful. Give yourself a chance to feel better. Get treatment.

scott snedeker

07-13-2007, 03:37 PM

innout

07-15-2007, 12:29 PM

thanks to all you responded. Yes, you all do seem like nice people and I"m sure you are. I HAVE called for help. I 've seen someone for close to 15 years and he did help a bit, took me from crying every morning to at least being functional, then about 3 years ago saw another guy who got me to go out there and try some more things that the first guy stgarted to get me to do. THen he decided he didn'td want to see me and gave me recommendations to see someone else. I found a guy I hated who was very ...uhm, critical of me and some of what he said was true, some of it not, I saw him once and left really wanting to kill myself, not just wanting to die. I saw another guy who was pretty far from my house and he was similar to the guy who wanted me to go out there and he told me not much different. I now see a social worker who really did'nt seem able to help me so I'm not sure I'm going back to her. She's nice, as al of them are/were except for that one guy. None was gay counselors. The gay ones I've calld wanted me to pay up front and get "Reimbursed" by my shitty coverage company. Not doing that. THing is none of them give any hope that they truly understand what's happeng to me and how to change it.

I've also tried the med route and for a while one med helped a lot. It took a year or so to find the right one. SOMe made me giddy, some tired, some didn't help at all. The right one lasted for five or six years and I became tolerant to it. SO I went back and back and again none worked. THen I went to another person or two to find out about meds again. They both wanted to put me on cocktails and I was about to do that when they told me one of the drugs if I got a rash I'd have to go right to the hospital. F that S. I've been thinking about it again, going to a psychitrist for some advice on drugs but ...well, I'm not thrilled by it.

On line? Love hate relationship. I just got off aweb page of this guy who used tosay he loved me. He's now cavorting around/about with yonger guys and rubbing it in my face. On top of all of that, (and there's been plenty of guys on line making false promises and ending friendships after seeing a pic of me) I want to be like them. I want to be having sex every weekend like they do but I am not lke that but wish I were. I wish I were anybody but me. I had guys I met through OUTGROUPS who were shitty to me in six or seven different encounters of just trying to go out and have a good time. I had a guy who I talked back from NYC all Saturday night a couple of years ago not want to later talk to me because I woke him up one night when I needed help.

Everyone says they want to help but few act on it. I also find all these stories of guys who met other guys SOMEHOW. Well that doens't happen to me. What happens to me is that I set up a meeting on Match.com and the guy does't show up at the diner we were supposed to met at.

GOd?I was in three born again churches that fell apart or were just out to rob people of their money. I recently tried a gay church and it was nice but again, brought back feelings of those who lied to me, tried to take my money and didn't love me beyond their own selfish reasons. THOSE were the people that professed they loved God and me. What liars!

So you see, there really is no way to turn, no where to go as faras the gay community on LI. No one wants to be bothedred and it is literally me by myself here going out there and trying to find...what?

I have also heard stories of MANY gay guys on LI who kill themselves because they are gay. Well I feel at this time they were right to do that, if they felt the way I do. Wanting and not wanting the same thing all the time. Desiring hot guys and not being able to get them.

Yeah, I never said I was going to kill myself, but I sure wish I could. I do wish I could die in my sleep. I dn't believe in killing myself but I sure wish I could. LIFE does stink. My life does stink more than most others. I happen to be a 44 year old virgin who never gets anyone to like him beyond the surface or if I can do something for that other person. The sad thing is that I know I'll probably live like this for another 40 years or more, unhappy. Being gay and not wanting to be gay is the worst thing in the world beyond getting a disease that kills you slowly. This is killing me slowly. Wanting guys and not being able to have them, yet seeing other guys getting it all the time, guys who treated me badly and shallow guys and guys who just think about and want sex, sex sex. Everyone talks about relationships but no one is really willing to try one with sonmeone knew. I met lesbians at a gay bowling thing and I gave them my phone number because they were really nice and seemed to like me as a friend. They gave me a card to check out a gay clube myself. THAT'S the kind of people here on LI and the kind of gay people I run into ALL the time.

WHere to start on here? I have no idea. All I hear about are groups but when I call the hotlines or phone numbers I get a runaround, little info and less help. SO tell me what do I do? Where do I turn to?

THer'es a ton of help for gays under 16 or under 20 but NONE for me. The "help" I got from OUTGROUPS led to nothing more than trouble.

SO tell me again how good it is to be me and how good it is to be gay and on LI and how there is so much help out there? Where and who? I'ts all a a pack of lies. No one knows how to deal with all these problems I have and on one really gives a shit beyond making thsemelves feel comfortable.

innout

07-15-2007, 12:38 PM

Zerbie

07-15-2007, 01:38 PM

Dear Inn,

Please try to find something you enjoy, something that uplifts you and gives you positive energy. I sense that you are just drowning in bad feelings and negative events - the more you focus on how bad things are, the worse you will feel.

If there is anything at all that gives you a sense of health, joy, and freedom, grab at that thing - whether it's reading, taking a walk outside and looking at trees and flowers, maybe volunteering in some way. Do you like animals? Maybe you could help out at an animal shelter if you care about animals. Or try taking a gentle yoga class if that's medically safe for you. I don't know, I'm reaching here. Just don't give up!

I can't speak for others, but from the little I've gotten to know of Paul, I suspect he really does have your best interests at his heart. Your words and attitude towards him were pretty negative, which, given your pain, is understandable. But please give him the benefit of the doubt - he wants to help a fellow human being. None of us are experts, we are BOUND to piss you off sometimes, it will be accidentally. All I can say is, give us a chance to be your friends, give the helping professions another chance until you find a therapist you really feel good with, and give yourself a chance to find what's positive in life.

Find something, even just ONE thing, that fills you with joy and FOCUS on that.

wmanion

07-15-2007, 02:07 PM

Hi Inn,
I did not come out of the closet until I was 40. I finnaly accepted the truth about myself that I had known from about sixth grade. However, coming out of the closet was not the end all to the issues that I had inside of me...it was my first step.
Like you, I started going to the gay bars...afterall, that is where my people were, right? Wrong? I have never been a bar person, and I wasn't a bar person. A friend of mine that helped me come out told me that when I was in the bar I was unapproachable. I gave off the signal to leave me alone. I thought about this for a long time...the reason I gave this signal was because I was out of my element...I do not even like the smell of beer...and secondly, because I wan not comfortable with myself.
Yes, coming to grips with your sexuality is liberating but at the same time it is not a cure all for all that has been inside of you over the years. I had to open my luggage...so to speak... and start unpacking all the depression, negativity, and self-loathing, that I had brought with me. Soon, I came to the realization that it was not as important to find someone to love me as it was to love myself. I had to be come whole and start respecting the "I" inside of me before I could even expect a "WE" to even begin to happen.
I had the false illusion that just by coming out, I was automatically going to be accepted and the gay community was going to embrace me with this great big hug and all would be well. Unfortunatley, that is not how it works. I still had work to do on me...I had to fully accept myself...and I had to come to the understanding that gay people are just people also. Yes, some are shallow. Yes, some just want sex. Yes, some are unkind. However, there are many who are genuine and do care. There are many who will go the extra mile to make you feel welcomed. And if you continue your journey, and offer friendship, there are those who become your friends and not just aquaintences.
You do not need to be a hunk to be approachable, you do not have to be a hunk to reach out to someone else and be their friend. But you have to be willing to be yourself, accept yourself, and offer genuine friendship yourself, not expecting anything more.
I stopped going to the bars. I stopped putting myself in situations where I would be uncomfortable. Being gay was only part of who I was. I still had my likes and dislikes, and to embrace my dislikes just for acceptance was really demeaning to my well being. We are all on the same journey but we do not all have to take the same road. Find the road you are most comfortable with and learn to love yourself above everything else.

Hugz and welcome to SoulForce.

Bill

scott snedeker

07-15-2007, 08:52 PM

paul

07-16-2007, 07:38 AM

as to Paul's suggestions? It sounds like I"m annoying you and you cover it well with comments and "helpful" suggestions, subtly aiming the blame at me. That's fair enough. I get that. But if that's is your picture in your icon I understand why INTERNET interactions have been good for you--you are good looking and gay guys respond to that first and foremost. Not sure what else to chat about. I mean who on --as you suggested I join other threads---who on here wants to chat with me? A depressed, sad unhappy guy who hates himself, wants to pass on, and has nothing really to contribute? And who hates being gay? Face it, I'm a mess and nothing I do really truly helps change that around.

oh and Paul, I DO want to die but I don't want to kill myself. There is a difference.

Hi Inn,

Sure, you are a little annoying...but I understand both sides of that fence. I feel the same way (that I'm annoying) when I'm in the depths of despair and feel like all I'm doing is complaining. I've felt that way very recently too. I do understand about wanting to die vs. killing oneself, I only feel that way about half the time now;). But I've had long periods in my life where it was hard to put one foot in front of the other, where I prayed if there is a God that God would just take me (and you know what? I bet there are others here who have similar stories). I think it's to both of our credit that we won't kill ourselves, because I think that is the ultimate selfish act. You have spoken a lot of the selfishness of others on this thread, it's something you really seem to despise. The only way to fix selfishness in the world (don't fool yourself, it's everywhere, not just L.I.) is to be unselfish. You know that you cannot change that in others, you've tried, but you can change it in your self and in so doing you change the world.

The suggestions I gave are good ones, as are many here, but worthless if not done. Mine were simple. I asked you to stick around and talk. That's an invitation to "chat" you goose. You're missing the forest for the trees. Again, I understand, been there. There are several people here who care and want to "interact" and "chat" with you, and are doing so. You have 44 years of experience to bring to the table, you have your self which has value, but you're not going to see that if you bury your self and focus all your energy on you. I have no problem "fac[ing] it" that you're "a mess." No big deal to me, who isn't? Check out my intro and we can commiserate together:eek:. You say you "are not sure what else to chat about." The good thing here is you don't have to come up with a topic. Float around and respond to someone else, give people a chance to get to know the other side of you...and there is another side of you.

Thanks for the compliment on the pic, but no, I don't have any "INTERNET interactions" of the type you describe.

u-dog

07-16-2007, 09:32 AM

Hi Inn,

I do understand about wanting to die vs. killing oneself, I only feel that way about half the time now;). But I've had long periods in my life where it was hard to put one foot in front of the other, where I prayed if there is a God that God would just take me (and you know what? I bet there are others here who have similar stories).

:wave: Yup! been there done that! when a therapist asked me if I was thinking about killing myself I answered: "No, but I've thought about thinking about it!" And I have definately prayed asking to come down with cancer or be suddenly run over by a speeding bus... but God was no more willing to do that than he was to make me straight. Sort of makes you wonder "who's the god around here anyway? me or ... you know... God. ;)

Zerbie

07-16-2007, 11:12 AM

:wave: Yup! been there done that! when a therapist asked me if I was thinking about killing myself I answered: "No, but I've thought about thinking about it!"

:'(:love:

Add me to the list.

I guarantee situations can change and will - life can turn on a dime, no matter how much it appears they won't. Do Not Give Up.

paul

07-16-2007, 11:27 AM

Thanks for coming forward you two. I knew there were others. Read on back in the thread, BrentRichards as well.

Inn,

I doubt you will find two finer people to hang with than u-dog or zerbie. Both show understanding, listen and have compassionate hearts. I would venture to suggest that each of these qualities was either born out of or enhanced by their difficult times.

When I encounter someone as yourself, I see the same kind of person, just behind a door. What we are all trying to do here is coax you outside the door. You are not rejected here but welcomed, and dare I say, anticipated? Please walk through the door and join in the loving. That's not an icky sticky platitude. There are people here who need your love.

u-dog

07-16-2007, 11:31 AM

In other words INN, We want you to "SHOW UP" :love:

ladyinred

07-16-2007, 03:18 PM

I'm posting some suicide hotlines here. I don't know how old you are ,so I will post several. Please do not be ashamed of needing help, let no one discourage you or browbeat you for needing it. Do not feel guilty for going through a rough time, being depressed or feeling this way..it happens to alot of people. You are not alone.
http://suicidehotlines.com/

http://suicidehotlines.com/national.html

Gay /lesbian suicide org,
http://www.suicide.org/gay-and-lesbian-suicide.html

http://www.gaycityusa.com/Support.htm

http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Gender/Site/depression/depression_in_community.htm

http://thetrevorproject.org/helpline.aspx

http://www.nmha.org/go/find_support_group

General support resources.

I'd also like to add the feeling of depression doesn't go away overnight.People can have relapses.Needing help and support on an ongoing basis will probably work for you. Nothing is magical and overnight , and ok I am fine. I had struggled YEARS with depression , and feelings of low self worth. I'd also struggled through suicidal feelings and not wanting to live pretty early in my life,and pretty much throughout most of my life .Don't feel just because you are in a slump that you can't get out it, but be patient with yourself and realize things take time.

BrentRichards

07-16-2007, 04:15 PM

My turn to piss you off, Inn ... having been there, I know how easy it is (in fact, it feels like the only option) to "yeah but" every suggestion you get. I did it. "I tried ..." "It won't help because..." "It worked for others but not for me ..." Ultimately had to face the simple fact: I can either keep trying until I find the right therapist, right medicine, right friends ... or I can shut up and feel this way forever. I had to choose keep trying. Hope you will too.

Yes, I've had crappy therapists. I've also had therapists who pissed me off and made me not want to come back any more ... they were usually the best ones! Don't be surprised that you have to change your life to, well, change your life, right?

Yes, I've had medication stop working, and have to start over. It sucks, but not as bad as feeling like dying 24-7.

Again, the comfortable pattern is to "if only" ... if only I felt better, could meet someone, had a magic pill ... The useful pattern is "right now" ... right now I'm making an appointment to see a therapist, trying a new med, picking up a hobby, starting to exercise, whatever ... It's a long walk, but we can either take one step at a time or stand still wishing it wasn't so far.

No one here, or anywhere, is going to have a magic suggestion you've never heard before. Sounds like you've "been there done that." But as much as it feels like it, you haven't exhausted the possibilities. You gotta keep trying. It won't be better tomorrow. It may get worse before it gets better. It might be expensive (monetarily, emotionally, and so on). But it definitely won't get better by believing nothing will help. Give it another shot.

Feel free to yell at me for not understanding and taking "shots" at you ... I know that feeling, too, and as Scott says, it's better than no emotion at all. Get pissed off and get better to spite the jerks you're pissed at. Whatever works.

ladyinred

07-16-2007, 04:37 PM

What I find is we often try to make comparisons of ourselves to others which makes us unhappy,they are so much better it seems, smarter, better looking, more sucessful,blah,blah. This will create much unhappiness because there are always people who may seem to be better than. You may be coming from the feeling of you aren't good enough.Or may be seeking self worth and happiness in something external.Looks do not define your worth, nor do achievments or sucess,All those so-called lucky people that seem so happy are often living in their own personal hell. Your worth can not come from someone elses validation, approval or even loving you. Often because we lack self love we tend to seek in things external to ourselves that we hope will give us happiness and self worth.. The new job, the great body, the achievments....the lover.That does not mean wanting a relationship is bad, nor does it mean you can't or shouldn't be in one, but first you need to deal with the relationship with your self. Someone else is not going to fill the hole or make you whole.You need to learn first to love your self and perhaps work on some self help program that will help you. I would recommend innerbonding because it deals with these core issues and you will find, I think the answers you are seeking.

I do think you want happiness in life you just don't know how to be happy , that doesn't make you a bad person, you may need to examine your core beliefs that are keeping you trapped ,limited and unhappy. The website :www.innerbonding.com. it's 5 bucks to join each month, you can cancel at anytime with no strings attached. Another website is coping.org which deals with issues on self esteem, both these sites have articles on how to rebuild your self esteem and how to be happier,I have many but don't want to overwhelm you here.

rainbow7

07-16-2007, 05:07 PM

Yes, I've had crappy therapists. I've also had therapists who pissed me off and made me not want to come back any more ... they were usually the best ones! Don't be surprised that you have to change your life to, well, change your life, right?

I've been trying to keep a low profile while everyone votes for or against psychotherapy, but I have to respond to this. If you feel anger towards your therapist, it could well mean that you are really working through your stuff! I can't speak for all mental health professionals, but I don't know any colleagues who intentionally try to piss off their clients. Of course there are lots of reasons why you might feel anger towards your shrink, but it could mean you are about to have what a dear colleague calls "an AFGE" (*another f------ growth experience)! Growth doesn't always seem to feel good in the moment. I think it was Kahlil Gibran who wrote

"Your pain is the breaking of the shell of your understanding."

Sort of like an egg hatching, maybe. And here you have lots of people offering themselves to you as catalysts by serving as temporary targets of your anger, which probably means they really HAVE walked a similar path before you, and they sense that you might need this. Can you trust them? It might be your invitation to grow (?)

Polly

"Those not busy being born are busy dying."
-- Bob Dylan

BrentRichards

07-16-2007, 05:30 PM

I've been trying to keep a low profile while everyone votes for or against psychotherapy, but I have to respond to this. If you feel anger towards your therapist, it could well mean that you are really working through your stuff! I can't speak for all mental health professionals, but I don't know any colleagues who intentionally try to piss off their clients. Of course there are lots of reasons why you might feel anger towards your shrink, but it could mean you are about to have what a dear colleague calls "an AFGE" (*another f------ growth experience)! Growth doesn't always seem to feel good in the moment. I think it was Kahlil Gibran who wrote

"Your pain is the breaking of the shell of your understanding."

Sort of like an egg hatching, maybe. And here you have lots of people offering themselves to you as catalysts by serving as temporary targets of your anger, which probably means they really HAVE walked a similar path before you, and they sense that you might need this. Can you trust them? It might be your invitation to grow (?)

Polly

"Those not busy being born are busy dying."
-- Bob Dylan

Bingo ... exactly my point ... though you said it much better.

innout

07-17-2007, 04:24 PM

Not sure what to say to all of this. I guess I've heard most of it before and tried most of it already. All I can is that life does not turn positively on a dime for me. I am exercising but all that does is let me see hot guys that I know I can't have to even look like. I've started walking, wow, big whoop, I still look not like my old self and I'm up to 35 min when I used to run for an hour. The ABRAHAM website did not work for me, I could not find it, it would not load. Trying to find something I like? Well, even the things I like/liked I hate because honestly they're part of the person--me-- that I hate.

I'ts not that I don't appreciate all the answers, I really do. It shows you do care...at least as much as you can on a web site. The hotlines don't really help, I've called them before. If you're not in their home town or if you're not a certain age, they pass you off to others. There's more but I keep forgettting what it was I wanted to respond to.

Love yourself and like yourself and accept yourself before you can be by others? IF that is what it takes, then I should quit right now. I HATE MYSELF TOTALLY.

innout

07-17-2007, 04:31 PM

I've also come the conclusion that bars are not my thing. But one, what is my thing? Not much. Not much that is social anyway. I find I like very little or maybe it's just in this state. And the stuff I do like, well, geeks like me like too like sci fi. I joined a sci fi group and while they are nice people, they dn't seem to really want to connect, again, beyond a superficial meeting or a so so relatinshiop or...one for sex. Which I declined as nicely as possible. Thing is I wasted so many years not seeking guys out, I sort of want to now do that but it just isn't working and maybe part of my doesn't want it to work cause then I'll really be gay. Fact is maybe I'm still a homo phobic homo who thinks gay is wrong. I know I don't think I want the full out and out gay sex and without getting graphic, I don't think I want to get anal or oral. Maybe that's what I hate most the fact that I am gay. Again, there's more but I can't remember what it was I wanted to respond to.

Therapists and medicines? I don't think at this time I'm willing to give them another chance at me. So many have had so long to try so much and they sorta had a semi clue...

Oh yeah, if I don't go to gay bars, what else is there? Oh yeah, I can go to the gay parade and stand around while everyone else has fun. Or I can go to gay bowling and watch everyone bowl, bowl myself and then go home. I even ehard it sueggested I go hang out at Borders bookstore because it was a big gay hanghout and pikup place. And I was willing or thinkgin of giving that a try.

Truth is I don't know what to do that will work. Some therapists say go out there while working on yourself. Others say work on yourself and then go out there. One of you guys said that it will take time...well, how much time do I have?

ALl i know is THIS SUCKS. I wish I were dead from when I wake up to when I go to sleep ALL the time every day, all day, all night...

Daniel

07-17-2007, 05:23 PM

And it's this impression Mr. Innout:

You seems pretty comfortable in your misery. Wearing it like a coat- wrapped right up in it.

Maybe your aren't upset enough. Or angry enough. Or depressed enough. Maybe you need to really hit bottom, because it seems like you've got a heck of a pity party going on.

Pity ain't gonna get you shit. It just isn't. It it did, it would have already.

I agree with Polly: I would run right back to that asshole therapist that pissed you off. You might learn something. You aren't going to like it. You don't have to. Change ain't pretty- especially when we are wedded to our misery. We have to be dragged kicking and screaming out of it. And it also seems like you have a very high bar which other people have to climb over in order to be acceptable to you. That tells me you are one heck of a tough customer on yourself.

We judge ourselves first before we judge others.

Instead of using that titanic will of yours to keep the same ol' ball in motion, you might, just might, see something about yourself worth changing and saving with that therapist. And you know what, you want change cheap. And real change isn't cheap. I wonder if you don't want to pay the price- literally and figuratively. I'd make you pay upfront too- that at least would hold your feet to the fire somewhat.

Instead of waiting for some hot guy to come and save you, you might figure out that you are going to have to see something in yourself worth saving. Why the hell would any guy want to be around your whining? I mean- get real! My hunch is that your are so fucking hard on yourself you can't see anything good about yourself or anyone else for that matter.

I say these things to joggle your brain a bit- and yeah- I can imagine that you will say 'I''ve heard all before'. Well duh. You would be repeating yourself. How about stopping that god-damn loop inside your head for one second and see what else is in your head? And in your heart.

There must be SOMETHING else in there!

Pain can lead us to change. So that's why I say you probably aren't in enough pain yet. We all get mighty comfortable with our pain. We bargain that it's better than what we could suffer if we let it go. It's a bargain, however, that we always lose. Always.

~

Do you have a secret dream? Something you've always wanted to do, be? Does that thought fill you will longing? Joy? Pain? Sadness? Your connection to this part of you is something of great value. Please cherish it. Don't snuff it out. It's your soul speaking to you.

Zerbie

07-17-2007, 05:37 PM

KEEP trying. KEEP looking.

Inn - you can DECIDE to focus on positive things. You can DECIDE to find things you like, both outside AND inside. You have plenty of intelligence, and as evidenced by all your posting here, PLENTY of perseverence. So instead of persevering in focusing on how HORRIBLE everything is, persevere at choosing JOY - choosing renewal - choosing LIFE!! Let LIFE in. Let JOY in. You are shutting out enjoyment, Inn.

You are picking up one negative thought after another and addicting your mind to them like someone picking up a bag of potato chips and not being able to stop devouring them.

Put the negativity DOWN.

Decide that you MUST drop the negativity, and that you WILL drop the negativity.

There is nothing more harmful than to hate oneself. Nothing. But I don't think you really do. I don't think you hate yourself. I think you have some anger (maybe a lot of anger,) towards perhaps yourself but also towards the world. More than anything here, I see that you LOVE negativity. You love feeling bad. You must love feeling bad because even when there is plenty of hope and positivity, you still CHOOSE to feel bad and focus on what's bad about every little helpful thing you ever tried.

You took up walking? You now walk 35 minuetes?! That IS a big deal! That is a very good thing!! Don't punish yourself because 35 mins isn't an hour. Be joyful that you walked - you did something positive. You did something healthy. You did something that chooses health and energy and LIFE!

Do you walk outside? If you do, why not focus on anything and everything you see outside that is uplifting and beautiful. When the air quality is good and the temperature lovely, when there are flowers and trees and birds, take your attention to those beautiful things and drink in the beauty of them. Make the beauty of what is healthy and positive flood in and nudge out the negativity, the way a river gradually erodes rock and carves a smooth path through it. Make a smooth path in yourself for positive joyful thoughts. Habit is forceful and negative thoughts will creep in. Just notice them, and choose something positive to focus on every time you notice your mind turning negative. You'll be so busy practicing that you won't have time to feel bad!

Again, if it's medically safe for you to try, try a yoga class. It will get your mind busy and you won't have time to occupy yourself with negativity.

paul

07-18-2007, 07:48 AM

ladyinred

07-18-2007, 04:17 PM

Inout. I thought this might help you. I hope it does. I know it can be painful when you are dealing with negative emotions about yourself and the opinions of others. But you aren't a bad person because you are dealing with certain negative factors in your own life.Don't allow others to judge and shame you because of what you may be feeling or dealing with now.Frankly not one of us learned what self esteem is or how to love ourselves because of toxic shaming of dysfunctional families(society at large is also dysfunctional and toxic). Most of us have issues and are wounded from things that happened to us. What we learned in our families of orgins is often how to be judgmental, critical and blaming of ourselves and others.(Tell that critical parent,SHUT UP) It doesn't mean you are a bad person because you picked up these tendacies, we've all learned them.....If we had healthier role models that had known how to love themselves, we wouldn't have picked up on the tendacies.
What Other People Think
How to stop putting yourself at the mercy of others.
by Chris Karcher
PARENTGUIDE News 2003/2004

Do you feel guilty when you have to say “no” to a request from a family member, friend or co-worker? Does criticism, however carefully worded, crush you? If someone is mad at you for a small infraction or oversight on your part, or perhaps even for reasons you can’t fathom, does it ruin your day?

Most people would answer “yes” to some, if not all, of these questions.

We often fear other people’s opinions of us. Because we all want to be liked, it is part of our nature to seek acceptance and approval. But in trying to please others, we may fall into a pattern of pleasing everyone else, with the result that we have no energy left for ourselves.

Most of us get anxious if someone is mad at us, so we do whatever we can to avoid the disagreements that cause anxiety. We may try to please others and “go along to get along,” even if it means that we sometimes act in ways that are contrary to our own value system. The fear of not being liked may make it difficult for us to assert our true feelings and opinions. Later, we seethe inside, angry with others and ourselves, instead of facing the issue head-on and letting our true feelings be known. Sound familiar?

Unfortunately, our need for love and belonging is so fundamental to our existence that we will never be able to completely overcome our fear of other people’s opinions. Yet it is important to realize that your worth as a human being is in no way dependent on the approval of others. Disapproval does not decrease your worth, nor does approval increase it. Granted, you are not perfect, but you are valuable.

Will the majority of people recognize your value? Probably not. They may perceive some value if you are wealthy or hold a position of power, but only as long as you continue to maintain that status. You grow in understanding when you realize that authentic power comes from within. Your worth never changes and is not affected by the opinions of others.

Fortunately, you can learn to grow so that you are not overly sensitive or immobilized by feelings of rejection. In fact, many of our most celebrated leaders who fought against injustice and taught the value of love were hated, rejected and persecuted for their beliefs— Christ, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, the Dalai Lama, and Martin Luther King, Jr. all experienced rejection even though they were committed to helping others and doing good work. Most of these celebrated leaders could have avoided persecution, but they chose not to. Why? They would not allow their enemies to have power over them. They stayed focused on their beliefs and refused to give in to the disapproval of their enemies.

You can learn to bring that same power and commitment into your own life. The following strategies will help you overcome the fear of other people’s opinions:

• Accept that a certain amount of disapproval is inevitable.

Disapproval from others is an unavoidable occurrence in life. As we grow, we will experience less emotional turmoil from disapproval and accept that although it is here to stay, it does not need to unduly influence our thoughts or feelings about our own worth. Once we realize this, criticism will not hurt as much and we will resolve conflicts more quickly. Part of overcoming the fear of other people’s opinions is giving up the fight to prove how special we are. It is freeing when we no longer feel the need to prove we are better than those with whom we share this earth. Always remember that you are special, regardless of how special the world may or may not think you are. By focusing on your own intrinsic worth, you can learn to spend less time defending yourself and feeling hurt, and more time moving beyond the turmoil that disapproval stirs up.

• Don’t give another person power over you.

Let go of your sense of personal responsibility for other people’s thoughts and feelings. Ultimately, we know we have little power to change the reactions of others. When conflicts and misunderstandings with others occur, ask what can be learned from the situation, and then put it behind you. When you listen to your inner wisdom instead of human will, you will gain a sense of balance and serenity.

• Change your focus.

Moment by moment you are given the opportunity to choose. If a critical boss is causing you grief, redirect your focus toward your inner wisdom and conscience and allow yourself to listen to what you know is right for you. When you change your focus from people to your inner wisdom whenever you are worried about dislike and disapproval from others, you will connect directly to the source of your worth. It will help you find the peace and confidence to grow and gain strength from the one opinion that really matters— your own.

When you follow these strategies, you stop placing yourself at the mercy of other people and instead focus on what is good for you. Your focus changes from the people in the world to listening to your inner wisdom. Then, before you know it, you realize you are not as afraid of the opinions of others.

Chris Karcher is the author of Relationships of Grace, a guide to building spiritual relationships through grace. Her work involves showing people how to create long lasting personal and professional relationships and finding their purpose in life. She is available for seminars and keynote speeches on charismatic communications, negotiation, profitable personalities and enduring friendships. Contact her at www.relationshipsofgrace.com.

innout

07-19-2007, 03:46 PM

Okay so now I have to stop walking and working out: I have kidney stones and they hurt like hell and sapped all my strength. Tell me again how I'm not a total loser?

keltic63

07-19-2007, 03:57 PM

Okay so now I have to stop walking and working out: I have kidney stones and they hurt like hell and sapped all my strength. Tell me again how I'm not a total loser?

could you ask your doctor about exercise options that wouldn't aggravate the kidney stones? how soon can you receive treatment for the stones?

you came here for a reason innout, it seems you've gotten a lot of advice from our members. May I ask what it is you expected our members to say? Is there something in particular that you wanted to hear from us, that we didn't say?

innout

07-19-2007, 07:01 PM

Honesty, I have no idea. I was / am desperate for some help and reaching out ---poorly--for it. I'm really and literally at the end of my thread. I can just go on and make the best of a miserable life. I'm gay and don't want to be. I'm unhappy and don't want to be. I try to change many of these things and don't succeed. I make four steps ahead and am pushed ten steps back. It seems there are centers more for young gay people that really do seem to care. It just comes down to that fact that if I don't care about myself, then no one else will either? Actually that's not true. People do care about me even when I don't. Or rather they try or say they do. ANyway, what more can I say that I haven't already, that isn't negative? Not much I guess.

Daniel

07-19-2007, 08:15 PM

Okay so now I have to stop walking and working out: I have kidney stones and they hurt like hell and sapped all my strength. Tell me again how I'm not a total loser?

The following passage is from Awakening Intuition by Mona Lisa Schutz. Dr. Shultz is a neurologist and also a medical intuitive. I've spoken with her. She's exceedingly perceptive.

The second center she talks about is one of the 7 chakra's - or energy centers of the body- in this case- in the abdominal area. It has everything to do with sexuality.

What's Driving Me?

Have you ever wanted something and yet been so afraid to go after it, or felt so bad about wanting it, that you never did anything about it? You secretly like that cute guy in your high school algebra class and you thought he liked you, but he was going steady with a friend of yours. You guilt kept you from pursuing a relationship wih him, but then you were outraged when another girlfriend, not so doubt-ridden as you, used every trick in the book to steal him away for herself?

The funamental conflict of the second emotional center is the conflict of autonomy versus shame and doubt, or initiative versus guilt. It has to do with knowing what you want and how you go about getting it. The actions you take and the way you feel about your behavior can affect you health in the organs of this area.

Keith had always wnated to become a lawyer, but he had doubts about whether he could do the course work. For most of his life, he put the though of law school aside. When he was in his thirties, however, married and with a family, he found himself thinking once again about applying to law school. Keith's present job, like most of his earlier jobs, was unfulfilling and not quite what he wanted. He had gone from one job to another, perpetually in search of the proper fit but never finding it. Yet he stayed with each job longer than he should have because he always doubted his ability to perform well in the next job. In everything he pursued, his ambition was neutralized by phobias and fear.

Now he felt the itch to go after what he had though he wanted all his life. Not surprisingly, however, his established pattern held. Worried that his going to law school would be too much of a burden on his family, he hesitated to fill out the applications. His wife, however, was enthralled by the idea of becoming a lawyer's wife. She selected a school in a city she liked, filled out the applications, arranged interviews for her husband, and basically powered him forward, like booster fuel in a disabled rocket.

Keith entered law school, but from the start he had a difficult time. He missed his job and the friends he had made there. He had a hard time forming relationships and dealing with new challenges and struggles. In his first year of law school he developed kidney stones. And his was the mother of all kidney cases. He got not one or two or three, but eight kidney stones. For a young man with no history of or predisposition to kidney ailments, his was unheard of. Keith's condition forced him to take a leave of absence from law school, to the great dismay of his disappointed wife.

What was Keith's inutitive guidance system, through his kidney's, trying to tell him about his life? Speaking to him through the second emotional center, it was telling him that he had to find out what or who was driving him. What did he want, and how was he going to get it? Keith wanted to go to law school, but he had doubts about following that dream. This happens to many of us. We want something but we have doubts about going after it, or we feel ashamed or guilty about going abfter it. We're like the teenage boy asking a girl out on a date for the first time. "Gee, Mary, I don't suppose you'd want to go out with me, would you? No. I guess not. You're probably all booked up." Afraid of rejection, he approaches the object of his desire backwards, in a passive, indirect, and shame-filled way. He's exhibiting too much vulnerability in his half of the second emotional center.

Other people go after what they want with too much intensity. In the movie Sleepless in Seattle the Tom Hanks character, a young widower, finally works up the nerve to ask a female colleague for a date. The woman has obviously been waiting for this moment for a long time. He barely stutters out the invitation before she informs him that they'll have dinner on Tuesday at a certain restraurant. Such overeagerness and shamlessnessm, not surprisingly, doesn't get her very far. She has exhibited too much power.

The Power and the Vulnerability

How do you go after things? Are you active or passive? If there's one drumstick on the platter and you really want it, do you grab it and start munching before anyone else even registers that it's the last piece? Or do you coyly (and passively) demur when it's offered to you? "No, no, you go ahead. I don't want really need it. I'm not that hungry. I'll have this another piece of bread," you say, making everyone else feel guilty and thereby getting what you want indirectly. Being direct versus, uninhibited versus inhibited, guiltless versus guilt-filled, shameless versus shame-filled are all powers and vulnerabilities in this area. Are you a go-getterm or do you sit back and let things come to you?

Keith, the man who wanted to be a lawyer, had an imbalance on the vulnerability side. Still full of doubt and fear, he went after what he wanted in an essentially passive, indirect way- through his wife. He didn't have the requisite drive on his own, so his wife kindly propelled him forward before he was ready to go. His body, however, promptly told him that this wasn't right for him. It's very meaningful that he developed kidney stones. Stones weigh you down so that you can't move forward.

Innout- You've said you've tried everything etc, but I would wager my last dollar that you are a pretty passive person- and shame-filled. After all, you keep telling everyone that you want to die and don't want to be gay.

This is why I asked you what you dream of doing and being. You didn't answer. It bet you can't because shame is driving your life.

So your stones are talking to ya. You can bet on that. Are you gonna listen to what's happening to you, or are you gonna hunker down some more? If you do the latter, you can bet your last dollar that nothing is going to get better.

You're gonna have to untangle the whole 'I don't want to be gay' knot and deal with things- or things are gonna deal with you. In fact, they are already.

So what's it gonna be?

innout

07-20-2007, 03:10 PM

This makes some sense but, however, it's making me more confused. I used to be passive, then as I came out of a shell, was directly active in forming my career...however, the same action did not work in my social life, which always has sucked and still does. That action, that moving to make it better, only resulted in failures over and over and over so yeah, I guess I got passive. Other than that, I'm not sure what you mean and which way to go. Listen to what's happening to me? Does tha tmean I"m not ready to face my gayness yhet? Or that pushingmyself i not good to do? I've gotten a solforce mesage that a Marry Forum is meeting near me. Gee, that sounds fun. Guess I'll go. Why? What for? To meet other gays< I guess. Stand around and look, what? SHame? Yeah, I don't want to be gay. I hate being gay and AM ashamed of being gay or even of being sexual tgo be honest. So what are you trying to say? I should do what? MOve ona nd move out again and force myself into sistuations I know I've tried and keep on trying those? Or what?

innout

07-20-2007, 03:12 PM

amost forgot went back to gym today to work out and did that so that was good but boy, it's like starting all over, and am a weakling. Barely ten pounds did I use to work out with

Daniel

07-20-2007, 04:07 PM

I've gotten a solforce mesage that a Marry Forum is meeting near me. Gee, that sounds fun. Guess I'll go. Why? What for? To meet other gays< I guess. Stand around and look, what? SHame? Yeah, I don't want to be gay. I hate being gay and AM ashamed of being gay or even of being sexual tgo be honest. There are other issues which I won't discuss here as well. Kinda fetish related which I know others have and are not suppposed to be hsameful but are to me. So what are you trying to say? I should do what? MOve ona nd move out again and force myself into sistuations I know I've tried and keep on trying those? Or what?

A really good therapist friend once said to me: "If you listen to a person very carefully, you will notice that they will tell you their problem, how to deal with it, and then promptly ignore what they said."

And you've done this above. And you keep asking the same question and expecting a different answer.

Yes. You need to get Ok with being gay. Ain't it obvious by now? Nothing is gonna change for you until that happens. Nothing. As long as you are radiating the energy of "I don't like being gay", don't be surprised that someone doesn't want to snuggle up close to you.

Truth is: if you don't like being gay, you also don't have much respect (or love for that matter) for any prospective male partner. No wonder guys steer clear of you. I would.

If I were you, I would figure out why you hate being gay- and deal with it, rather than trying to run from it.

The kinky stuff?

Big deal. My own opinion is that consenting adults can pleasure themselves in any way they want as long as they aren't talking advantage of each other. There are lots of ways to play.

That said: love is the best aphrodisiac.

innout

07-20-2007, 05:04 PM

keltic63

07-20-2007, 05:45 PM

all of that true but from my perspective, I haven't met many gay guys out there who deserve respect with the possibility of two exceptions and they are a couple. The gay guys I've met, for the most part, have just verified the prejudiced notions that this country and I have grown up with about gay guys...

You didn't hear what Daniel said. You don't love yourself, you have no respect for yourself because you're ashamed of being gay, and then you cry because you can't find a good man to love you. According to you, there are no good gay men, including yourself. The same disrespect you're showing for your own orientation, is the disrespect you've just shown all of the gay men in this forum. If this is the attitude you have as you're trying to meet guys, no wonder they run!

Deal with being gay. It's not gonna change. You can spend the rest of your life hating yourself because you're gay, or you can find a way to accept yourself. Once you love yourself, love, in the form of another man to share it with, will come to you.

Zerbie

07-20-2007, 11:04 PM

amost forgot went back to gym today to work out and did that so that was good but boy, it's like starting all over, and am a weakling. Barely ten pounds did I use to work out with

You're ahead of me. Last time I went to the gym I had to use the 5 pounders.

Give yourself credit for being ABLE to lift 10 pounders. ABLE to walk. There are people in this world who cannot - who are crippled by polio or by accidents, who live in wheelchairs.

all of that true but from my perspective, I haven't met many gay guys out there who deserve respect with the possibility of two exceptions and they are a couple. The gay guys I've met, for the most part, have just verified the prejudiced notions that this country and I have grown up with about gay guys...

I've met gazillions who deserve the utmost in respect - with inner peace, joy, dignity, integrity, ethics, kindness. There are zillions of beautiful souls walking this earth in gay male bodies.

Inn - have you looked into the feasibility of taking a beginner's yoga class?

And here's more: volunteer for something. Go help out someone who needs help. There are hungry people - there are people with no place to sleep at night. There are puppies and kittens who need adoption or will be killed - adopt a pet, or volunteer at a shelter.
If you go to the marriage meeting, don't go to meet someone to fill your own needs - go to help realize a worthy cause. Go to help the folks there who need volunteers/donations, etc.

tdogg

07-21-2007, 12:16 AM

Great advice for you In/Out. You need only listen. It would help for you to take the focus off yourself for a while.

By volunteering at a pet shelter, a homeless shelter or feeding place, hospice, just about anywhere - you can focus on others who are likely not as fortunate as you. It might help you identify the areas where you are indeed blessed, and help your determination for making your own changes.

No one can do this for you. You are the only person who can make your life different, and to do this you must first decide you want to. Nothing will work of you don't really want any changes.

Going to the gym is a good start. I have yet to get there! I'll probably have to start with 5# weights as well. Embarrasing for someone who had no problem lifting 2 20#ers just months ago. But I'll start and grow from there. Take the first day, and decide you want to grow, and then make that growth happen.

YOU are the ONLY ONE who CAN MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

scott snedeker

07-21-2007, 05:08 AM

Once you love yourself, love, in the form of another man to share it with, will come to you.

Hey! that's my line!:eek::lol::love:

Pablo Rafael

07-21-2007, 08:45 PM

Innout,

I have not responded to you until now because others have said it so much better that I. However, I just have to add my thoughts. (I'm a teacher, we love to talk and give advice, even when it is not wanted.)

Though my situation isn't the same as yours, I would like to share a little. I had a hard time growing up. My dad was abusive, and life at home was stressfull all the time. Though I never really blamed myself for his behavior, I suffered greatly from poor self esteem. Also school was tough. I was the kid who always got picked on. I should have done something about it, but I didn't. As I got to be the teenager, I was the tall, really skinny kid with terrible acne and thin stringy hair. (Back in the 70's when lots of long hair was quite important.)

But to get to my point. It was at one point in college that I decided that I could DECIDE to be happy or DECIDE to be miserable. The choice was mine. At that time I decided I was going to be happy.

The road has been long, but year by year, with God's help I have pulled away from that destructive negative thinking. God does not create losers. All people are wonderful gifts of life. We chose to be losers or chose to be shining lights in our world. Our place in this world is of our chosing it is not imposed from the outside. I believe that Christ's death and resurrection has removed all our failures and all our shortcomings. If I am valuable enough that God wanted to give His life for me, who am a I to argue with that. No room for negative thinking.

I don't do very well in social situations either. I am painfully shy in groups. What I have found helps me in social sitiautions is to get into small groups where I can naturally participate. I know you said you had tried church and didn't find the experience positive. However, church is where I meet most of the people I associate with. I am a musician and find that music automatically gives me a connection. (Want to meet gay men, go to an American Guild of Organists Meeting, it's better than a gay bar to meet guys.) I would urge you to find a church that is warm and accepting. Don't give up, they are out there.

I make connections by giving to others. I am involved as a volunteer at our local library, also on a board that works with non-profit service groups. Giving to others really breaks down barriers. Also a good friend of mine who is 92 years old and works with hospice patients said she has learned one key point from being with those who are dying. "Be positive. People will want to be around you."

As has been suggested. Get out and post on some of the other threads. Join with us. We are a very easy group to be a part of. Internet communication isn't like meeting face-to-face, but it can be of value and encouragement.

And like Zerbie said a few posts ago. The decision is yours to make; you just have to make it.

Now, no more negative thoughts. (Listen to the teacher.)

Tu Amigo, Pablo

scott snedeker

07-23-2007, 02:11 PM

what I hate most the fact that I am gay. Again, there's more but I can't remember what it was I wanted to respond to.

ALl i know is THIS SUCKS. I wish I were dead from when I wake up to when I go to sleep ALL the time every day, all day, all night...

. Trying to find something I like? Well, even the things I like/liked I hate because honestly they're part of the person--me-- that I hate.

Love yourself and like yourself and accept yourself before you can be by others? IF that is what it takes, then I should quit right now. I HATE MYSELF TOTALLY.

Okay so now I have to stop walking and working out: I have kidney stones and they hurt like hell and sapped all my strength. Tell me again how I'm not a total loser?

all of that true but from my perspective, I haven't met many gay guys out there who deserve respect with the possibility of two exceptions and they are a couple. The gay guys I've met, for the most part, have just verified the prejudiced notions that this country and I have grown up with about gay guys...

Maybe you should die, but in a figuritive way. Letting your way of looking at youself (and reflectively gay people) Die. Lettting the old identity die. See yourself as a blank sheet of paper. Your past only exists in your mind. Rewrite it with something better starting at age 10. Explore your new entitlement to fairness and joy. And if something bad hits you in the face say " that's for old so and so, he died.

Maybe take on a Goth identity for a while and/or Attend a gathering of radical faeries

My faerie name is Ash Phoenix symbolizing the burning of my previous identity that practiced self injury. I am comfortable remaining "Ash" for a while. Dead ash has no debts or due punishment coming, all that was burned away.

Imagine yourself dead. Imagine people talking about you after you are dead. Imagine witnessing your own burial. Then realize that the fear is worse than the event itself. Imagine the freedom if you come back as a different person. All of the things you would do with your new freedom from your old life.

My point is in all of these seemingly pointless suggestions is to stop fighting against your pain and desire to die. Go through a preparation and ritual and schedule the event. Then announce it figuritively of course, And pick up with your new life, new name, new future, new entitlement

u-dog

07-23-2007, 02:43 PM

scott snedeker

07-25-2007, 06:56 PM

Scott! What an intriguing idea !! (sounds kind of Christian, frankly, but whatever works I guess ;) )

To deal with suicidal ideation by planning and carrying out a ritual/metaphorical suicide and resurrection... I wonder what Polly will think of that idea .

:inspector: very interesting indeed

Letting Go of self judgement is a common thread in practicing good spiritual hygeine.

Each of us requires a model with which the inner heart can connect. I had to immolate myself spiritually to end the lingering slow death my soul was suffering from my emotional self injury. Hence my faerie name Ash (Ash Phoenix). The name rings true to my heart with promise of rebirth. Ash means the past no longer exists and as such cannot be looked back upon. My past existed only in my mind and was killed along with my previous identity.

I feel no loss. Only freedom and sinlessness. No debt due to be paid before I am entitled to joy. I am entitled to everything I want because that is a given. If I want something..... it will become mine. If I can't have something that I think I want, It is because I am not in vibrational alignment with the desire yet.

Christians who are reborn appear to mirror this very closely to me.

Dear Inout,

Keep posting! Even if the suggestions seem gratuitous and ineffective, your response to them is a step up from focussing on what you are doing to yourself.

You are in despair and come across as feeling unworthy. But you have seen here that you are viewed as worthy of our responses. Perhaps you may see this as being only worthy of pity. If this is the case then that's a baby step up from seeing yourself as being completely unworthy.

I urge you to keep going in this direction. Feeling worthy of pity can solidify an entitlement from which your can make your next baby step to feeling worthy of concern and consideration. How we see you is insignificant. How you see yourself is everything.

If it helps, however, I see you as a homo sapien with intelligence, concern, and desire. I see you as having an emotional handicap. As with any handicap, the right exercise regimen will compensate by making baby step by hard won baby step. This is the resiliant nature of the species to which you belong.

innout

07-29-2007, 12:53 PM

Thanks to everyone who gave suggestions. Volunteering is something I've thought about. Trouble is the gay places I tried to contact didn't bother to contacct me back. As for pet places, I'd want to save them all or bring them all home and I'd get even more depressed if even one were lost or put to sleep. I suppose I could try other places. I also did SO much when I was in the born again churches....would you climb under a church's old spider infested, possibly rat infested floor boards with nails sticking up and sticking down because you were the correct size to bring a TV wire through it? I did. I used to do so much more for people...nothing as extreme as that one thing but I used to care more and used to bother more...and all it ever got me was USED by others and misused by others. I'm not saying that volunteering is out but where and what.

Also the death thing sounds good...but what is this part following?

<<<Attend a gathering of radical faeries>>>>

What are radical faeries and how do I attend a gathering of them? It sounds sort of ...pagan to me and I met a pagan and she talked to me and talked to me and talked to me and really...after that, she seemed to not care at all.

Anyway a new thing has happened. I've gone back to the gym and walking and although it's a struggle I've kept it up. I started watching, quite by mistake, a religious show by Ceflo Dollar. Has anyone heard of him?

Now his two sermons that I've seen (today and last week)...were about controlling your emotions and feelings before they control you or stopping them from controlling yhou if they already are. Today focused more on past hurts, which is also something that hit home. Both sermons were exactly right for me and made me feel good...for a couple of days for the first one. Trouble is I don't want to fall into that born again trap that had me in three previous churches.

My mind knows what he said was true, however, how do I reconcile that with the fact that I am gay. Yes, I'm still running from gay but if the "word of God" says it is okay...which clearly with most people it does not...how to I fight off the idea that gay is wrong. In my mind and my feelings and my emotions IT IS WRONG. And that can be another negative way of fighting the gay thing. How do we know God accepts gay. I've heard, in the Cathlolic church and the born again churches MORE, that gay is not the way, that men should not lie down with other men, and even today Ceflo went into fornication was wrong speech, sex before marriage is wrong speech. These things struck home with me as being right, not being wrong. If that is the case, then how do we know that our "wrong" feelings and emotions that tell us we are gay, are correct. Couldn't the evil forces is in the world make us think we are gay or make us think gay is right or make us think that we were born that way. I know I was not born depressed or negative but got that way. How do we know that it is not the same with gay and I'm talking from a God point of view not a scientific one although both seem to prove that gay is not something people are born with. Some gay guys aDMIT TO me that they were not born gay, that somehow they were influenced to be gay or that they found out they were gay later in life...and some feel it is both being born that way and the enviromental influences. Why do many gay guys have overbearing or overprotective mothers and cold, more distant fathers?

My point is: how to I combat, with scripture the idea that gay is not what God wants for our lives, that gay is wrong, and that gay is of the devil. Now I hate talking about the devil and that was one of the many reasons I left the born again churches while still feelig that I am still born again. But the truth is he exists and he does things to fool us and keep us negative and buried. How do we know gay is not just one more thing from him. WHen I see two effeminate guys walking in the park, holding hands and wearing next to nothing (at the gay parade) it strikes me as ungodly. I know this could just be wrong thinking but that's what I think or feel. Which is right? the feeling that I'm gay or the feeling that gay is wrong or the feeling that gay is nmot of God?

Then there's another whole group that think gay sex is wrong but they see nothing wrong with being gay or huddling, cuddling, anddoingother stufsf with gays. They are called Frotage or Frot I think.

Anyway I've also signed up for the picnic at the near-local gay church so that might come about.

I also wantedto go to the soulforce Marry Me or whatever it was called thie weekend but figuring they wanted activists I th ought I should not go. I'm not sure I agree with gay marriage let alone with being gay and I"m going to go to a gay activity that is looking for people to promote gay marriage? I think if gays want to get married that's fine, they shoudl be allowed and they should have the same rights as eeryone else.

Anyway it's thundering here and I want to get this posted before I lose it or the power goes out. Let me know what you think and thanks again for all athe suggestions.

I like the non negative thinking Pablo suggested but HOW do I do that? How do I change the neative thinking. What did you do, Pablo? I hope I got your name right too. I have trouble going back and forth esp now with ligtnining and thnder threatneing to shut me down.

Okay thanks.

Inn

innout

07-29-2007, 12:55 PM

oh also are there any other threads about scripture that says gay is right? or are not condemning of gayness?

Zerbie

07-29-2007, 02:18 PM

:)Thanks to everyone who gave suggestions. Volunteering is something I've thought about. Trouble is the gay places I tried to contact didn't bother to contacct me back.

Don't limit yourself to "gay places." Volunteer for a cause you care about, or can learn to care about, gay or not. If they don't call back, recognize it's probably because they are understaffed and the volunteer who heard your message lost your phone number on an old post-it note that fell off the computer monitor and someone else swept off the floor. I've SEEN it happen. Give them a couple more chances before writing them off, then if it's still that way, try ANOTHER place.

As for pet places, I'd want to save them all or bring them all home and I'd get even more depressed if even one were lost or put to sleep.

Then make arrangements to adopt a pet from a rescue shelter. Save A Life. That's one life that would not be saved if it were not for you. If you get a dog, then you could take walks together. :)

I suppose I could try other places.

Yes.

I also did SO much when I was in the born again churches....would you climb under a church's old spider infested, possibly rat infested floor boards with nails sticking up and sticking down

:lol: No. Good for you.

I did. I used to do so much more for people...nothing as extreme as that one thing but I used to care more and used to bother more...and all it ever got me was USED by others and misused by others.

Learn to set boundaries. Say yes only when you want to and can follow through. If someone asks for something you can't give or don't want to give, say no. That's your boundary to set.

I'm not saying that volunteering is out but where and what.

That's up to you. Think about something that touches your heart. Some cause you care about. Try searching google and see what's in your area. There are all KINDS of things out there - I've even found out that there are bat protection volunteers in my area. You know? As in rescuing bats - the little furry night creatures - when they get trapped in houses or the like. If something interests you, I bet you can find an organization for it.

Also the death thing sounds good...but what is this part following?

<<<Attend a gathering of radical faeries>>>>

What are radical faeries and how do I attend a gathering of them?

That's a question for Scotty, but yes I believe it is pagan.

Anyway a new thing has happened. I've gone back to the gym and walking and although it's a struggle I've kept it up.

:weee::tup::award: Yayyyy!!!! Go Inn!!!!!! :D This is the most positive, life-affirming statement I've seen from you yet. Good work!!! Keep it up!!!

Now his two sermons that I've seen (today and last week)...were about controlling your emotions and feelings before they control you or stopping them from controlling yhou if they already are. Today focused more on past hurts, which is also something that hit home. Both sermons were exactly right for me and made me feel good...for a couple of days for the first one.

Good! Yes, it sounds like they zeroed in on the problems you're fighting right now.

My mind knows what he said was true, however, how do I reconcile that with the fact that I am gay.

Take what is good from what people say, keep what is good, and leave the rest. Whatever resonates for you, whatever rings a bell of truth for you, keep that. If it doesn't speak to you, leave it. Just don't pick it up.

Yes, I'm still running from gay but if the "word of God" says it is okay...which clearly with most people it does not...how to I fight off the idea that gay is wrong. In my mind and my feelings and my emotions IT IS WRONG. And that can be another negative way of fighting the gay thing. How do we know God accepts gay.

Oh the $64,000 question - more like, a $64 BILLION dollar question. This is one that we each puzzle out our own way, be it through intellectual study of Scriptures, through private contemplation or meditation, or any number of pursuits that we cherish.

I will make an observation. You are totally trapped in the whirlpool of conflicting assertions (gay is natural, innate, and intended by the Creator, vs the anti-gay, unacceptable arguments). In the middle, there's you, and now you have to sift through this loud, swirling mess and find Truth, and the trouble is that it's so loud and messy you have trouble discerning up from down. I see the problem and it's seriousness. Take heart, Inn, it is a survivable problem. These are good questions - important questions!

All these conflicting thoughts can't possibly be correct. Your job is going to be, get quiet, find the center of your being and let your being contemplate God. It is not the job of other people to make up answers for you, though we will try to help you establish perspective by sharing our own experiences. I'll also say that, given the negativity you suffer from at present, getting quiet, calm, and still is probably going to take a long time, so don't expect it to happen immediately. You will need to slowly, steadily rebuild your emotional and physical health before this can happen. So your first priority is to choose to affirm life - every decision you make from now on, choose what will affirm aliveness, draw Life into your body and mind.

You are not bad. You are a bright light. You have immense intelligence and resilience. Put them to work FOR you. Take it one baby step at a time. Take a baby step, then reward yourself for the commitment to life and goodness.

I'm sure the others, Pablo et al, will share with you some of the steps they took along the journey to self-acceptance.

As for me, when I hear your questions, I hear you asking if you can possibly be sure that God loves you if you're gay. That maybe you are doing, or worse - being - something wrong. That this can even be in question is terribly, terribly sad. There is no question - God absolutely loves you!!

Inn, you are not wrong. You are not bad. You are a shining light. God absolutely loves you as you are, "gay feelings" or not. No matter what, God's love is infinite and it is unconditional. No matter how deep in despair you sink or how negative your mind is, God sees only His beloved child. :dove:

y. I know I was not born depressed or negative but got that way

Yes! Dearest Inn, you can UN-get that way. You can lift yourself out of this depression.

Ask your spirit to come be your friend and lift your mind from depression. Your mind will fight it and list reasons not to try, reasons everything is bad, etc. Do not listen to it. Do not follow the negative thoughts. They go to a bad place, and you want to go to a good place. The thoughts will come, and that's fine. Just don't follow them where they go. Do not believe everything you think.

. My point is: how to I combat, with scripture the idea that gay is not what God wants for our lives, that gay is wrong, and that gay is of the devil.

I trust the other members to have lots of responses to this, and I am not good on Bible issues, so I will skip this.

I can only suggest that you take your fears and concerns to Jesus and lay them at his feet. Let Him sustain you through your time of questioning. He isn't going anywhere. ;)

I like the non negative thinking Pablo suggested but HOW do I do that? How do I change the neative thinking. What did you do, Pablo? I hope I got your name right too. I have trouble going back and forth esp now with ligtnining and thnder threatneing to shut me down.

Okay thanks.

Inn

Just don't follow the negative thoughts. They are like a ghost train to hell. Let them board the train without you. You'll hear them blowing the whistle, you'll hear the tracks rattle, but just don't YOU get on the train and go with them.

God absolutely loves you. You are His baby. He does not want you to suffer. Offer him your troubles and problems, and let Him take care of them.

Meanwhile, I am very glad that you're back again.

u-dog

07-29-2007, 02:39 PM

Hey Innout !!

Zerbie is absolutely right when she says that this latest post is the most positive and upbeat one we've read from you! It makes me so happy. :) Every thing she wrote to you is right on the money and I can't think of a thing to add!

With regard to God and being Gay. Why don't you let that just sit for a while. Here is the rock bottom truth of the Gospel. God loves you no matter what. Even if you guess wrong and believe the "wrong thing" about being gay? God is still going to love you. We had a baptism in church today and we sang a song called "I was there to hear your borning cry" the first couple lines go like this:
I was there to hear your borning cry
I'll be there when you are old.
I rejoiced the day you were Baptized
to see your life unfold.

That's God talking to YOU! We can talk at length about the so called "Clobber passages" that straight people use to abuse us, but those words are what its REALLY about !:love:

Zerbie

07-29-2007, 02:45 PM

oh also are there any other threads about scripture that says gay is right? or are not condemning of gayness?

Hey Innout !!

Zerbie is absolutely right when she says that this latest post is the most positive and upbeat one we've read from you! It makes me so happy. :) Every thing she wrote to you is right on the money and I can't think of a thing to add!

With regard to God and being Gay. Why don't you let that just sit for a while. Here is the rock bottom truth of the Gospel. God loves you no matter what. Even if you guess wrong and believe the "wrong thing" about being gay? God is still going to love you. We had a baptism in church today and we sang a song called "I was there to hear your borning cry" the first couple lines go like this:
I was there to hear your borning cry
I'll be there when you are old.
I rejoiced the day you were Baptized
to see your life unfold.

That's God talking to YOU! We can talk at length about the so called "Clobber passages" that straight people use to abuse us, but those words are what its REALLY about !:love:

Oh and also - there's that thing Kara loves to quote. It's so beautiful! What is it? I think it's a psalm? Something about "I (God) knew you when I formed you in the womb"?

Yes Inn, God knew you would have feelings for men, before you yourself knew. And He still made you, so in my mind, that settles that.. ;) :love::love::love::love::love:

kara speltz

07-29-2007, 03:03 PM

:wave: Yup! been there done that! when a therapist asked me if I was thinking about killing myself I answered: "No, but I've thought about thinking about it!" And I have definately prayed asking to come down with cancer or be suddenly run over by a speeding bus... but God was no more willing to do that than he was to make me straight. Sort of makes you wonder "who's the god around here anyway? me or ... you know... God. ;)

Zerbie, I just love your posts, that ending question is classic. One most of us forget on a daily basis. It seems to me that Psalm 139 was written for us LGBTs who struggle so, forgetting that God has always known exactly who we are. Here's my own personal favorite interpretation, which I plan to have read at my funeral, when God's ready for me!

O Lord, you have searched my heart and known it. You know when I sit down; You know when I stand up. You understand my deepest thoughts. You carefully watch over my pathway and are with me when I lie down to rest. You know everything about me. You know everything I have to say. You walk behind me and go before me and have laid Your hand upon me. Your knowledge of me is beyond understanding.

Where could I go from your Spirit? Or where could I go from Your presence? If I move upward to heaven, You are there. If I lie down in (my own private) hell, You are there. If I take a flight high in the sky, or if I go diving in the depths of the sea, Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand will hold me.

You fashioned my inmost being from the start. Your presence covered me in my mother’s womb. I praise You for I am wonderfully and intricately made. Even when I was being formed, my inner parts and bones taking shape before birth. You wanted over me. You knew my every movement and knew me long before I was born and took first breath. My life was recorded in Your book.

O God Your thought of me are so precious and so many, they’re like the grains of sand in the sea-unable to be numbered. When I awake each morning, You are still with me.

Kara

tdogg

07-29-2007, 03:38 PM

Hi Innout!

I too am very happy to see your positive side! As for getting to the gym and walking, well, you actually have inspired me with this...I'm trying to get myself back to the gym after months of being off. Thanks, just what I needed to hear! An inspiring gym story! :love:

Innout, you are asking how to concentrate on the positive and not the negative? I've found that as humans, it's so much easier for us to think about the bad stuff, and difficult to accept the good (such as a simple compliment). I've had a couple ideas that might help you...

First, take a moment at the beginning of each day, no matter what your mood. Write something positive about yourself and put it away in a special box. If you do this everyday, you will accumulate 7 postives a week, 30 a month and 365 a year! Then, when you are feeling down about yourself, open your special box and start reading. It should be very uplifting!

Then, work really hard at trying to be graciously accepting of compliments. This has been very difficult for me, and I find sometimes going back to the old me which has to downplay or qualify good things people say about me. By accepting without questioning, we can begin to truly accept and love ourselves, all the good stuff.

Sounds like you are really on the fast track, though still questioning. I was there, on a rare occasion, I get back there a bit. I just go back to my belief that God created me just as I am, that God loves me just as I am, that I'm very special to God. We are wonderfully and fearfully made - why would the fact that we happened to be made gay anything less than wonderful??!! Embrace YOURSELF. You are SO worth it. Just as you are Innout! :love::D:rainbow:

andrewlittle

07-29-2007, 04:10 PM

It's been a while since I've been very active - just posting dribble really. I've been reading along on your posts, and people's responses, and I think you have been and are in good hands. These people are reaching out to you - and oddly enough, not the you that you perceive. They are reaching out to the Innout that shows through the chink in the poor self-image and self-loathing. They are reaching out to the hope that can be read in some of your words. It's just that that hope that is within you is probably a whole lot easier to see from the outside than the inside.

I've been where you are emotionally, and was there for a great many years - between the ages of 6 and 39, actually. Without getting into the specifics of why I hated my very being, let me just say that I concentrated on the things that were most obvious to me. Initially, of course, so did most therapists. Eventually, however, one therapist saw through my own (by then) finely tuned self-abhorance and decided I hated myself for all the wrong reasons. Concentrating on the wrong reasons blinded me to the real issues that I had yet to even catch a glimpse of, and it was quite the temptation to go back a lot and avoid the new realizations.

If it helps, I read a little of that process in your most recent post - something a less self-critical and self-hating. And when I read it I got a glimpse of a very small, but very colorful little flower trying to peek out from the mass of weeds and matted, rotting plant matter. Look at the flower inside you just a little bit, appreciate it for what it is, and then make an appointment with yourself to see it tomorrow, too.

Set aside the apparent main issue - being gay - and concentrate on what Jesus and scripture say about other aspects of human identity. It isn't hard, there's a damn sight more of them. There's time enough to deal with the clobber passages about being gay, and I'll help if you want when you're ready, but maybe deal with those clobber passages about being human, and real, and self-critical, and growing, and flourishing, and developing into a lover of Christ instead of a victim of scripture.

Try to see in yourself what others are reading in your words - and take just a minute to languish and roll in the beauty of the tiny little bloom that is daring to peek out. It is just as much you as anything else you say or write, but maybe it's the you that's trying to break out and find a voice.

Anyway, I'll keep checking and maybe write when I feel I've got something to add that will help fertilize the growth.

scott snedeker

07-29-2007, 04:13 PM

"You fashioned my inmost being from the start. Your presence covered me in my mother’s womb. I praise You for I am wonderfully and intricately made."

I love it! And I am Stunned! I want to ask:

When did some sneaky pagan insert verses in psalms?:lol:....Just kidding!

Also the death thing sounds good...but what is this part following?

<<<Attend a gathering of radical faeries>>>>

What are radical faeries and how do I attend a gathering of them? It sounds sort of ...pagan to me

You can get a bland idea from wikipedia and teases from www.radfae.com, but the best start I think is to rent the movie SHORT BUS
SHORT BUS is inspired, written and acted by radical faeries. It is an urban translation of the Short Mountain Radical Faerie Sanctuary in Tennessee.
I rented the movie from netflix by what I thought to be random chance three weeks before the my first visit to the Radical Faerie Sanctuary on Short Mountain
The message I got was punctuated by my transformating spiritual death and rebirth on the mountain.

I then saw very clearly that renting the movie was no random event.

"When you are doing the right thing, the universe conspires to help you!"-----Adrain Chesser, my first pagan lover and keeper of my heart spirit.

I started watching, quite by mistake, a religious show by Ceflo Dollar. Has anyone heard of him?
I'll bet you will come to know also that this is no mistake!

Now his two sermons that I've seen (today and last week)...were about controlling your emotions and feelings before they control you or stopping them from controlling yhou if they already are. Today focused more on past hurts, which is also something that hit home. Both sermons were exactly right for me and made me feel good...

Inn, That is the "secret"!!!!!!!!!
Nothing is more important than to feel good. With a good teacher of thought focus you can feel good at any time, just like when you heard his sermon. Practice focussing your thoughts and like learning to play an instrument you will get better at it. If Ceflo Dollar connects with you to make you feel better then jump on it! This is your inner being (who loves you) connecting with the conscious part of you. And insn't it delicious!

Don't get hung up on the metaphysics if they seem hokey. It is just a tool that we humans use to make our way. Just go with it.

I so hope Ceflo Dollar can do for you what Abraham does for me! You will find that as you become more adept at focussing your thoughts that you can have control of what emotions you feel. This is another amazing ability that we humans have. Don't despair if you lose the good feeling. Just go back to the thoughts that made you feel good and get back on track.

Oh! I will have a lot to share with you if you follow this track of spiritual Hygeine!

I like the non negative thinking Pablo suggested but HOW do I do that? How do I change the neative thinking. What did you do, Pablo? I hope I got your name right too. I have trouble going back and forth esp now with ligtnining and thnder threatneing to shut me down.

Okay thanks.

Inn

Answer: "We learn by doing." And you already are!

Pablo Rafael

07-29-2007, 06:00 PM

I like the non negative thinking Pablo suggested but HOW do I do that? How do I change the negative thinking. What did you do, Pablo? I hope I got your name right too. I have trouble going back and forth esp now with lightning and thunder threatening to shut me down.

Inn,

I don't know if I can give any concrete advice. I don't know exactly how it worked myself. I think I just made a firm decision that I was going to look at the positive side of things. I just said that I either could think bad about myself or good about myself. I decided that when I met people I would act cheerful, when I talked about things it would be the positive things. When I saw something that I could do to improve things, I would take the opportunity. I decided that I had the ability to make the world a better place, and I needed to start doing it.

It hasn't been a total success I admit. I still have ghosts that hide in the background and bring in doubts and negativity. I am painfully shy when meeting people because I still think that they probably won't like me. I have to shove those thoughts aside and go ahead anyway. I think a lot of being positive is acting confident and positive even if one doesn't really feel it. At least in my case, when I act confident and positive, people respond to me in kind, and I really do become more self-confident.

A positive environment works wonders as well. I got away from home and from my dad's negative influence. I went to a great Christian college that surrounded me with friends and much support. (I know that Christian colleges have not always gotten positive mention from the members of the soulforce forums, but it was just what I needed.)

God has given each of us abilities. We can spend time looking at what we don't have or focusing on what we do have. Often I see people that I think have everything all together and life must be a dream for them; then I recognize that they have problems of their own. Others have obvious difficulties and do great things. I have a quite severely handicapped student. She has so much struggle in life; yet she is a positive influence to all around her. Her abilities far outweigh her handicaps. I believe that everyone is precious and is a gift from God. Each of us has the capability to improve our world using what talents God has given us.

It has been a joy sharing with you. Thanks for the opportunity.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

innout

07-30-2007, 10:48 PM

I also did SO much when I was in the born again churches....would you climb under a church's old spider infested, possibly rat infested floor boards with nails sticking up and sticking down

what i mean is I DID THIS for them, for God and what I got in return from them anyway was just being used by them

innout

07-30-2007, 10:52 PM

<<<<As for me, when I hear your questions, I hear you asking if you can possibly be sure that God loves you if you're gay. That maybe you are doing, or worse - being - something wrong. That this can even be in question is terribly, terribly sad. There is no question - God absolutely loves you!!>>>>>>>>>>>.

Thanks Zerbie. I don't think God will condemn me or hate me or any of that. I think He will stick with me no matter how messed up I am. But how do I get this awful awful mess of a life on track if I'm not sure what is up or down as you say...if we have to flee sin and yeah the devil, then how do we know that gay is not either or both of those?

innout

07-30-2007, 11:03 PM

as for writing posotive things about myself...whenever I tihnk about myself I think ver little posotives. Don't get me wrong, I still hate myself, hate my life, et etc etc. Things don't really improve or change. I was alone on Sat night and didn't want to be. I am still a great big mess and I t hink some of what I wrote may have sounded more positive than I really am and I really feel. Behind the born again stuff, and I'm not sure about Ceflo Dollar's ministry but behind the born again stuff I once was in was a very strong anti gay rhetoric and that is not what I need right now...or is it? Is being gay and feeling those feelings the WRONG thing and thats' why I feel so conflicted so that's what I'm really asking. I want to be proven wrong that the gay way is the sinful wrong way via the BibleI guess. And I'm going to a picnic/pool thing this Sasturday but I know I probably will have to fight myself tooth and nail to go. It is a gay church sponsered thing and even if I do make it there, will I show my true happy self that lurks under all the bad stuff? Or will I just look like a fearful scared, hatemyself loser? Who no one wants to be around?

Zerbie

07-30-2007, 11:11 PM

Dear Inn,

Have you looked around this site much beyond the forum? I'm quite sure that there is a video you can watch called "How can I be sure God loves me, too?" in which Mel White talks about these matters. You might find it helpful.

Dear Inn, there is nothing wrong with you. Being gay is not evil. Not by a long shot.

If you don't feel emotionally ready to go to a gay church picnic, then don't go. Don't put yourself in a position where you will feel psychological pressure. You don't need any more pressure right now.

Take good care of yourself. Keep up the walking. Adopt a puppy.

Have you looked into taking a beginner's yoga class?

Daniel

07-30-2007, 11:22 PM

We've all been were you are at one time or another. It's not fun. One minute you feel Ok and the then the next you feel like hell. The mind goes up, and then the mind goes down.

Well. That's interesting in itself, don't you think? How about finding ways to bring your mind towards greater stability? That would help, wouldn't it?

That said, I think you already know how to go about it. And that is your desire to be 'proven wrong'. The only way this is going to happen is if you start doing some research. That may not be any fun either, but believe, me, it's the only way a good many of your fears will fade away. So what are you waiting for? There is plenty of stuff to read on the site, as well as book/material suggestions.

This will help you create a basis for youself. Get busy- Ok? Otherwise, your mind is just going to be flopping all over the place.

Use your unhapppiness and fear as motivation. Please don't let it stop you.

Much love to you.

Zerbie

07-30-2007, 11:23 PM

Check with your doc & make sure it's safe for you to try yoga exercises first, but basically:

I feel compelled to just tell you - order this DVD. Buy it now, watch the basic moves instructional, and start following the beginner's class on the DVD.

It's called Strength and Spirit.

http://www.forrestyogastore.com/

There are 3 products on the page. You want the beginner's DVD, which is called Strength and Spirit and it's on the bottom of the page. Just try it.

Yoga lifts mood, changes perspective and outlook, and above all: it requires concentrated attention and in that way it totally distracts us from our problems.

Give it 1000% and you will be rewarded beyond your wildest imaginings.

Just get this DVD and practice it. Every day. Just try it. That's all. Just this one thing.

Basta.

u-dog

07-31-2007, 06:31 AM

Innout,

The people who post here regularly are all pretty incredible people. They are smart, intelligent, compassionate, worldly. Many (most) are successful in their chosen fields of endeavor (doctors, teachers, pastors, bible scholars, psychologists other mental health professionals, successful professional musicians) They are very caring people BUT...

they DON'T suffer fools lightly AND they tend NOT to have much patience with "LOST CAUSES" They are far too mentally healthy for that.

AND YET... they are spending lots of time and energy on YOU...

hmm.....:confused: what does that say about you?

a) you are not a fool and
b) you are not a lost cause

Andy is right. What we see in you is a beautiful flower trying valiantly to poke out from under a huge pile of S**T

Obviously, we all think that the gay thing is a part of the beautiful flower and NOT a part of that pile of "poo" but if you are not ready to accept that yet then just leave it alone. There are other important things about you to focus on and other more important aspects of the Gospel for you to internalize also.

Finally, God lovess you no matter what. Even if you guess wrong about the gay thing... he still loves you and wants the best for you. God is all about the flower and NOT about the S**T THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE GOSPEL. THAT IS WHY CHRIST DIED AND ROSE AGAIN FOR US !!!!!!

:love:

Dave

PS. I don't know squat about Yoga but my son the Christian Violist swears by it and if he AND Zerbie think its good... then by GOD its good.

Zerbie

07-31-2007, 12:25 PM

Innout,

The people who post here regularly are all pretty incredible people. They are smart, intelligent, compassionate, worldly. Many (most) are successful in their chosen fields of endeavor (doctors, teachers, pastors, bible scholars, psychologists other mental health professionals, successful professional musicians) They are very caring people BUT...

they DON'T suffer fools lightly AND they tend NOT to have much patience with "LOST CAUSES" They are far too mentally healthy for that.

AND YET... they are spending lots of time and energy on YOU...

hmm.....:confused: what does that say about you?

a) you are not a fool and
b) you are not a lost cause

Andy is right. What we see in you is a beautiful flower trying valiantly to poke out from under a huge pile of S**T

Obviously, we all think that the gay thing is a part of the beautiful flower and NOT a part of that pile of "poo" but if you are not ready to accept that yet then just leave it alone. There are other important things about you to focus on and other more important aspects of the Gospel for you to internalize also.

Finally, God lovess you no matter what. Even if you guess wrong about the gay thing... he still loves you and wants the best for you. God is all about the flower and NOT about the S**T THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE GOSPEL. THAT IS WHY CHRIST DIED AND ROSE AGAIN FOR US !!!!!!

:love:

Dave

Yes, exactly!!! Inn, go back and read that again and again until it sinks in deep. U-dog's whole note. He is exactly correct!!

PS. I don't know squat about Yoga but my son the Christian Violist swears by it and if he AND Zerbie think its good... then by GOD its good.

(chuckles softly) It's ironic you put it like that Dave; you talk like someone with a lot of yoga experience. Your flower analogy is pure yoga philosophy.

Yoga is better than good. It is a lifeline. Inn, I have a feeling it is precisely what you need most right now. Get that DVD. Order it today.

BrentRichards

07-31-2007, 02:44 PM

But how do I get this awful awful mess of a life on track if I'm not sure what is up or down as you say...

I'm trying to listen to my intuitive self here, and Daniel will be proud of me for this, I'm sure ... as I read these words, here's what I was reminded of, and will therefore share, having no idea if it is useful, but I find it a lovely picture:

I had the good fortune in college to learn to scuba dive. It's tremendously beautiful and peaceful. But things can go horribly wrong, and training must prepare you for that possibility. One thing that you learn quickly is that being surrounded entirely by water, and neutrally buoyant (that is, neither sinking nor floating) it is easy to become disoriented and lose your directions. In fact, when in deep water, or when visibility is limited, it is quite possible to be able to see nothing but water in every possible direction. It literally becomes quite difficult to tell "which end is up" ... you can see why it might be a bit important to identify "up" --that's where you ultimately must go if you're to retell this story another day. Because the feeling of having absolutely no sense of direction is, frankly, terrifying (I've had the experience once in murky water) diving training must teach you, in advance, a very concrete and simple way of solving this problem:

Stop. Breathe. Then follow the bubbles.

So much there, isn't there? Make your own interpretations, as I'm sure they'll be better than mine.

u-dog

07-31-2007, 02:58 PM

I'm trying to listen to my intuitive self here, and Daniel will be proud of me for this, I'm sure ... as I read these words, here's what I was reminded of, and will therefore share, having no idea if it is useful, but I find it a lovely picture:

I had the good fortune in college to learn to scuba dive. It's tremendously beautiful and peaceful. But things can go horribly wrong, and training must prepare you for that possibility. One thing that you learn quickly is that being surrounded entirely by water, and neutrally buoyant (that is, neither sinking nor floating) it is easy to become disoriented and lose your directions. In fact, when in deep water, or when visibility is limited, it is quite possible to be able to see nothing but water in every possible direction. It literally becomes quite difficult to tell "which end is up" ... you can see why it might be a bit important to identify "up" --that's where you ultimately must go if you're to retell this story another day. Because the feeling of having absolutely no sense of direction is, frankly, terrifying (I've had the experience once in murky water) diving training must teach you, in advance, a very concrete and simple way of solving this problem:

Stop. Breathe. Then follow the bubbles.

So much there, isn't there? Make your own interpretations, as I'm sure they'll be better than mine.

Thank you for sharing that Brent. I will find it helpful as well... might even end up in a sermon one of these days... :)

Zerbie

07-31-2007, 04:06 PM

le way of solving this problem:

Stop. Breathe. Then follow the bubbles.

.

Magnificent, Brent. :award:

Yes, absolutely. Stop. Breathe. Follow the 'bubbles.'

Yoga will teach you how to do this.

Get that DVD.

tdogg

07-31-2007, 10:38 PM

Often when I'm having some difficulties in my riding lessons (one mistake can lead to others which can lead to frustration and nothing but mistakes), he'll make me pull into the middle of the arena, stop, breathe and clear my mind. After a few minutes we are ready to roll back out and get back to ridin'! :cowboy:

Similar to the stop, breathe and follow the bubbles! :love: Excellent example, and advice!

Daniel

07-31-2007, 11:12 PM

Stop. Breathe. Then follow the bubbles.

What a great instruction.

It's somewhat different, but your story reminds me of what a friend told me when I was dealing with coming out and rather uptight and depressed. She said:

"Do you know what the First Law of holes is?"

I looked at her blankly. She said.

"Stop digging!"

scott snedeker

08-01-2007, 10:34 AM

I still hate myself, hate my life, et etc etc......... Things don't really improve or change. ..........I'm not sure about Ceflo Dollar's ministry.................... but behind the born again stuff I once was in was a very strong anti gay rhetoric and that is not what I need right now............................. will I show my true happy self that lurks under all the bad stuff?

I'm taking apart a few phrases from your post. In some of them you have identified what you really really really really don't want. This is good if it helps you to better define what you really really really really do want.

I abandoned the bible and the judeo-christian paradigm for a nature-based spirituality (paganism) because of anti-gay rhetoric that was added to the bible over millenia.

Very simply, we believe all living things have an awareness and are connected by an awareness. This connection of which humans we are a part, has an awareness also. This "macro-awareness" has many names that humans call it. The name is a tool for connecting with it. Each human must pick the best fitting tool to optimize his/her spiritual connection to joy, peace, harmony and light. My symbol is Pan, the ancient god of the mountain forests of Arcadia.

Through my image of Pan, who made love to men (shepherds) and women (nymphs), not only is being gay okay but infact gives God joy. The more sex and love-making I do, the closer I am to Him. He is a satyr after all, the incarnation of passion.

Same-sex attraction occurs in nature in nearly all species. My goats go at it every day. (OK that's not a good mental image!:lol:) I love goats! They are funny, playful, loyal and remind me of Pan and the connection of God and nature to me.

Choose a spiritual paradigm that affirms you just the way you are. You can change paradigms as you change. The purpose is connection to your inner being (who loves you unconditionally). The belief that feels best ----is best.:cool:

Practice imagining your self, confident and having a good time before meeting up with people. Keep that image in your presence. When you arrive look around and apperciate the surroundings: " Ah beautiful sky, cute squirrel beautiful trees, cute guy in shorts! nice smile on that one! And then find someone who reflects your mood and comment, "this is really nice! Who set this up!"

Stay at the gathering for a while then when you start feeling social fatigue let them Know that you had a great time and leave. Like anything else stamina in social interaction takes practice and training to be able to have lasting power. Stay too long and you may experience social fatigue and have a negative experience. Like working out, it's not good to over-do it.

you're gonna make it!