Discomfort here

[suzer1013]

My rather disjointed ramblings to follow....

I haven't been posting or reading here like I used to. This is due to many varied things, but I feel it is something within myself that has changed regarding the mission of Soulforce and how it is carried out. I struggle to know whether change in religious denominations can come from an outside group like Soulforce, or if it ideally comes from within the denomination itself. It probably is a mixture of the two, forces from within and without.

I am uncomfortable here for some reason. I could cite some previous posts and attitudes here that have bothered me, but I don't know if I'm being fair or not. We are all human. I certainly have my shortcomings, and I am learning as I go, too. And I'm not even sure it's worthwhile to go into it in detail, but just wanted to say it and air my feelings a bit.

The few posts that I have made recently have not been responded to, and paranoid and overly-sensitive as I am, it makes me wonder if I really "fit in" here. I get the feeling that many here are "activists" (as it probably should be at Soulforce). I am personally uncomfortable with being an activist. At the ex-gay conference we attended the vigil for in November, I was unsure of some of the tactics used. Some of the signs, I felt, were not in the spirit of nonviolence. However, I have no control over other groups and what they include on their signs. And, strangely enough, some of the protesters were looking for dates or remarking on "this cute guy", etc. during the protest. This bothered me, as I felt that not only was it not the reason we were there, it also played into the stereotypes that those people meeting at the ex-gay conference have of GLBT people. So, again, I was uncomfortable. Later, when the protesters began calling the conference participants "Christian facists", it was time for me to leave.

At the same time, I don't want to be judgmental. I don't want to criticize these groups for doing what they felt was right. Name calling, in my opinion, is not a very good way to get our point across or to support those fragile souls attending that conference. But I could be wrong. Maybe such action is needed. But it is not for me.

And I would love to actually sit down with some of you to discuss my discomfort face to face, and perhaps get my feelings across better, but we are all in different parts of the country, so this will have to do.

I am not sure whether actions like the Equality Ride further our cause, or if they just make the "other side" more hostile to us. And yet, when these schools are teaching lies and misinformation which is harmful to GLBT people, I know we must respond in some way. I just don't know the best way to do that.

I have been unable to answer the "Why are you at Soulforce?" thread, because I really don't know. I guess I came here for some comraderie. At one time, I wanted to DO something about gay rights. I wished that I could help change negative attitudes and inaccurate Scriptural teaching within religious communities about GLBT people. At the moment, I'm not sure that Soulforce is the right way for me to see change made on behalf of GLBT people. I am beginning to feel that perhaps the fight for rights should not be in our churches, but should be purely on the secular level. However, I do understand the issue is perhaps inextricably entwined with religion. I may be one of the rare GLBT people that doesn't really care if a church will marry me and my partner, but I do want the government to recognize and give equality to our relationship.

Well, I'm just rambling on, really. I guess I just wanted to share how sad I am that I don't feel like Soulforce is a "home" for me anymore. I did used to feel that it was a home full of friendly faces. And perhaps this is all because of a disconnect inside of me. I often head into different experiences (often church experiences) with a very rosy view of things, and when I am confronted with the inevitable downsides of that experience (no church is perfect), I get depressed and just don't feel a part of it anymore. And that's when I leave, because I can't agree with everything as I once had. When there begin to be too many things I don't agree with, I move on. It's something I need to work on.

So, perhaps it's not Soulforce at all, but me. But I thought I'd share my feelings on it, for what it's worth. Thx. for reading.

Susan

[Zerbie]

Suze, Suze, you make some of the most intelligent and balanced posts on this forum (not to mention how well you write them). I rarely respond after your posts b/c I'm thinking, "Well Suze nailed *that one* - nothing left for me to add."

I have come to understand taht I am NEVER going to agree with everything an organization does, and if I want everything to be done as I would do it, I would have to go it alone. So I stick with the group (as long as it doesn't totally rupture my internal compass). For reference, consider Kara's issues with the military policy challenge. We are never going to all see eye to eye on each of these complex issues. I have my own wonderings about the E Ride too, I think it does a mixed job of both helping, AND activitating opposition. But then again, the opposition was already there and lying dormant, so. . . mixed bag.

If you disagree with posts or strategies go ahead and express that - there will always be somebody else who disagrees who was afraid to say so until you spoke up. The priceless aspect of THIS organization is the love and respect shown by members who disagree on detailed points - the loving friendships that endure throughout the discussions of strategy or interpretation.

I would have left that protest too, if people were shouting "Christian fascists" at participants. We had one guy shouting insults at participants who were leaving for lunch break, and every time I moved to get away from him, he still ended up near me, and I was so afraid he was going to cause an angry confrontation. Not to mention how offensive I found his behavior with which I did not want to appear associated. Unfortunately, THAT happens sometimes, and I too take that as a cue to leave, either a few yards away, or all the way home.

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk about details some more, or your concerns. You're a valuable member of this community, and you have a brilliant head on your shoulders. I would hate to lose you! PM me, k, Suze? I have an appointment now, but will be home the rest of the day and evening.

Z

[BruceChris]

I am sorry to hear that you get bummed out here sometimes. I have always liked your comments. Sometimes, I have started threads that few people responded to, so I know how you feel there.

Rest assured, that no group has ever improved their civil rights without activism, and activists. And activists usually include everyone from rioting radicals, to marchers, to armchair professors who just write letters to the editor.

Any change that comes about in any denomination, or any other social grouping, only with repeated pressure and challenges, and only over time.

I would love to reach out to you, and be your "chat buddy", but that is something I'm not all that good at. Besides, you would probably want someone of the female persuasion.

I just read Zerbie's piece, I don't think I can add much to that.

God Loves You, we Love You, and God STILL Loves you, Bruce Chris


P.S., I have never used the phrase "Christian Fascists", but I have been known to talk about militant ignorance, now and then. Luv Ya.

[Lydia]

I may be one of the rare GLBT people that doesn't really care if a church will marry me and my partner, but I do want the government to recognize and give equality to our relationship.

You can't be that rare - I feel the same way. :)

I'd miss you if you left.

[suzer1013]

Thank you all for your responses so far -- it makes me feel a bit better just to be heard on the subject. I can't respond more fully until later tonight.

Just want to mention, though, that I'm not really thinking of leaving, per se, but I am trying to figure out my commitment here, why I feel less committed lately and the reasons for that. This wasn't intended to be an "I'm leaving" post, though I can see why it could be taken to mean that.

BruceChris -- I'm comfortable chatting with anyone, male or female -- you needn't worry about that, but I do thank you for taking it into consideration. :)

Susan

[BenL]

Susan,

Please don't go. I know exactly how you feel. "Conversations" on forums like this are chancy things. A lot depends on who's online and what catches their interest. Sometimes the thoughtful posts like yours go unanswered because they can't be responded to with a quick, off-the-cuff comment. I am in awe of the things you've posted since I joined. I'm still learning about this group and the movement it represents, so I can't often add anything to many threads. And don't think that what you write is not read. Check the numbers of people who have hit your posts. The number of active posters on a forum is always far outnumbered by the people who lurk.

Besides, you're one of the few 'Piskies (at least by upbringing) who post regularly. I just don't have time to trawl the Web for articles and blogs, and I have used the links you posted to keep up on my own denomination.

I can relate to your down cycle with the church and even with the SF forums. Fatigue and frustration can lead to a sense of disconnect with any organization, even the ones that are important to us.

As an example of a kind of disconnect I experience here, I have never had much to do with Fundamentalist churches or organizations. I'm not familiar with the culture or with the doctrine, except through what I've read. As a result, I have not had the gut-wrenching experiences some of our members have had. So, when people post all those links about FOF and Dobson and the like, I find it hard to take them seriously (the Fundies, not the posters). I know I should, but it's not where I feel called to contribute.

When I post things out of my own Christian experience, I wonder how sick and tired our Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, agnostic and non-believing members must be of the whining Christians here. :lol: So I try to generalize it more so that more people can relate. But, in the end, I can only write out of my own experience, and I need others to write out of theirs so I can learn.

One of my chief concerns is with reconciliation between GLBT people and the people who have oppressed us. I don't want to see them banished to hell. I would much rather see us all gathered up in God's love. I sense something of the same feeling in your posts. You help keep us on track, with our eyes on the prize, as Martin Luther King and Paul of Tarsus have said.

In the end, what's important is our relationship to God. The church is a human institution, albeit founded by Christ. It exhibits all the foibles that come with the human condition. So, yes, I get fed up even with my welcoming and affirming parish at times. That's a Sunday when I'll probably worship somewhere else for a change, and then find out how much I miss home.

You are valued, here Susan. Take a break if you need to, but do stick around.

BenL

[Rick336]

Susan,

Stick around. Many of us on here who regularly post messages don't always get an immediate response. But, our opinions are read by a lot of people, both by members of Soulforce and guests who drop in to read what we have to say and find out who we are.

Sometimes I'll leave the forum for awhile because my interests are directed to something else important. But then I come back and read the comments and news and upcoming events then put in my two cents worth.

If you do decide to leave, remember, you can always come back. ;)

Rick

[tdogg]

Hi Suze,

Hey, I get how you feel - sometimes I feel like the best thread-killer in the world! But then, other times I get responses. I think like Zerbie said, and I feel like that as well, can't really say it better or ad to it, so I don't bother to respond.

Think about this - you might not get the responses you expect, but you never know who is lurking around, and what they are getting out of your words, your story, your experience and opinion. So, if nothing else, that makes what you say totally worth it!!! Plus, those of us who hang out here, get blessed by you also, even though we might not say it out loud, we are still blessed by your words.

I have mixed feelings about the Don't Ask Don't Tell action. Whether or not I agree, it's an action Soulforce is backing and those involved feel passionate about it. Sort of like the war. I totally DO NOT agree with us being in Iraq, but I'm not going to put down our soldiers for it. They are doing their job. I will support, even if only in my thoughts and prayers, those involved in SF DADT.

Equality Ride - it's not perfect, but I think it's necessary and the kids are doing a bang up job. Even if they get through to one or two students, it's worth it. AFter hearing from some who attend the colleges and see how the ER action has helped them, it's so worth it. None of us are perfect, we sometimes do and say stupid things, but on the whole I believe the ER riders are doing a great and worthwhile job.

Protesters are their own animals. Zerbie said it great, move away, far away and home if necessary. But for those inside, if they see those who are peaceful, loving that is what will stay with them. Sure, the others will get the attention and the media, but the peaceful loving ones will get the attention of those who need them the most.

Anyways, Suze, you are a valuable member of our SF group, don't go, don't stop posting, keep it honest and real and be yourself. We really DO appreciate and love you. Take care!

Tdogg

[Zerbie]

At one point, I nearly stopped visiting this forum - it was a long time ago and I forget what was posted that upset me so. Glad I stuck around.

As I wrote in the title above, energy moves in cycles. Like waves, we might be on an up-energy crest full of enthusiasm for a while, then it peaks, rolls back down, and then we feel more despondent or tired than enthused or hopeful. Then it rolls back around again. Really, human energy, physical and emotional, flows in cycles. Perhaps you are now at a low ebb. When that happens, go ahead and rest. Back off the activism, ya know?

It's so easy to get burned out, feel a sense of uselessness from activism. That sort of thing (activism) especially needs to be allowed to flow in cycles. If I'm all over the place with protests and marches and tee shirts lately, it's because I just took 5 years off from LGBT activism, so now I've missed it. I'm quite sure at some future time I will bow out for a while again, to rest.

[Pablo Rafael]

Susan,

I have always appreciated the things you have posted. I sort of feel like Zerbie. After reading your well-thought-out posts I don't often have anything to add or at least anything that sounds halfway intelligent. If someone posts something absurd, I can always come up with a stupid response, however.

I have to say that I was a little uncomfortable at first with some of the things that were being said in various threads. Being a fairly conservative Christian, I found some of the beliefs of some people a little difficult. It has really helped me to listen to what people from all beliefs have to say, and I have gained a greater respect for everyone. I am more comfortable now and a little less bothered by differences of opinion.

I am very much concered about the religious discrimination against LGBT individuals. I have found Soulforce a strong voice in that area. The fact that there are people from varying belief systems adds to its strength. I am also concerned by many gay activists that seem to promote a spirit of hostility and immorality. I do not support them nor do they represent me as a gay Christian. My goal is to show that a person can be a strong Bible-believing Christian and gay at the same time.

You are exactly right that the change in the church must come from the inside. There are many of us here at these forums that are trying to foster change from the inside. We need to have gay Christians in our churches. Too many LGBT individuals have left the church; I think that is starting to change. I think the activites that Soulforce engages in are mainly starting points for those of us in the churches to bring to completion.

Thanks for posting and sharing your thoughts.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Zerbie]

I have to say that I was a little uncomfortable at first with some of the things that were being said in various threads. Being a fairly conservative Christian, I found some of the beliefs of some people a little difficult. It has really helped me to listen to what people from all beliefs have to say, and I have gained a greater respect for everyone. I am more comfortable now and a little less bothered by differences of opinion.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

Hey Pablo, that's really cool. :cool:

Me too - the other way 'round. I think it's making my 3D relationships better, for that reason. :love:

[scott snedeker]

Dear suzer,-

-I have appreciated your contributions to soulforce. Your posts are some that have given me most comfort. One might consider me to feel quite the outsider being one of few pagans on this site.

But I have found defenders when my pagan views attract sarcasm and rejection.

These defenders come I think, because they recognize that My number one prioty is spreading the message of unconditional entitlement to life , love and equal privilege.

You will be missed by me if you leave.

[Daniel]

Suzer- I love your posts. Wise. Well-written. From the heart. You just let it all out- whatever you are going through. And that's what you've done here. I know this can be discomforting. But please don't head for the hills. We love you.

[tpdncr4christ]

Baisicly everyone has said stuff that I don't need to say, but I'm gonna say it anyways. You bring such cool insights to different threads, and you are really smart. We would miss you...

But if this isn't the place for you, try Gay Christian Network (http://www.gaychristian.net). They are all about support, not activism. It sounds like thats what you are looking for. Its a safe place there too... and the cool thing is, you don't have to leave here, to go there. :love:

[suzer1013]

Thank you all for your kind and thoughtful words. I love y'all. You've given me a lot to think about. In fact, I talked for a long time with my partner last night about this. I'm not sure I understand my feelings fully yet. I guess I'm trying to figure out when and where activism is appropriate to create change, and when it is appropriate in a religious context.

I have spent a lot of time on several Episcopal blogs, and I've found that discussions with those who would oppress us rarely, if ever, create change. No amount of presenting our case, supporting it with scripture, and doing so in a loving manner, help end the bigotry and discrimination against gay people. These folks just don't want to hear it. And I may be coming to the realization that real change is created one-on-one, in person. That is, if change happens at all. And sometimes I think all the discussion and arguing actually just makes those who would oppress us more cemented in their anti-gay views.

I'd like to share with you a blog entry by an Episcopal minister in California. I don't want to steal it without his permission, so I'll just give you a taste of it here, and direct you to his blog to read the rest. His story is amazing to me, and he is an example of the people we need to be creating relationships with. His blog is here (and it's a wonderful blog, if you care to check it out beyond this particular link):

http://caughtbythelight.blogspot.com/2007/02/personal-manifesto.html

And here's a sample:

I have seen ministries wrecked by homophobia. I have seen the scars born by LGBT clergy who have made pilgrimages into the unknown as they escape hostile dioceses. I have sat with them as they listened to subtle, patronizing bigotry couched in gentle, "pastoral" voices. I have watched them get sliced and diced online and in person, told to return to the closet, and seen in print how they are regarded by some merely as abominations. I have watched them react with heartfelt sympathy to those who conscientiously cannot find their way out of the theology that prevents them from accepting sexuality other than that between a man and a woman. I have seen them persevere through elections, searches, and discernment processes where they knew, at the end of the day, they were being rejected simply because of their sexual orientation.

They have taught me healing ministry. They have taught me how to cry and be honest about who I am. They have loved me while even knowing that I could walk away from them because of their sexuality. . .that I could walk away at any moment with impunity as far as the greater society and Church is concerned, because I have that privilege. I have betrayed them in word and deed as an ordained priest. I have sold them out to chummy up with people I fear. I have dismissed and abstracted them away in my writing and preaching. And, yet, they continue to love me and call me back again and again to my full humanity in community and communion. And what is more Christ-like than that? Does not Christ love us most visibly and without reserve when we betray him? Is that not what the gospels and our greatest theologies about salvation teach us?

I have seen the face of Christ most in the wounded, loving, caring, and compassionate gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, and transgendered Christians of this Church, lay and ordained. I am who I am because of who they are, and who God in Christ has been through them. They have become a part of me, and an integral part of my spiritual journey into the heart of God in Jesus Christ.

So, to the Primates I now say, as a priest at the growing edge of the Anglican Communion, and with no intended reproach towards those who strongly disagree with my position on human sexuality:

Wherever my brothers and sisters are damned, I am damned as well.

God bless you, Rev. Richard. This was written, as you may know, after the recent Anglican Primate's meeting in Tanzania.

Susan

[cousin.of.zuzu]

Thanks for this link... Says a psudo lurker. :)

[Lydia]

That was really beautiful. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. I, for one, have added that blog to my "favourites" list....and I don't do that very often!