Change

[tpdncr4christ]

Let's talk about change. Two quotes:

Is there any time we are “suppressing the truth” through silence? How are we teaching them to deal with the onslaught of misinformation available to them everywhere, from what they believe are trustworthy sources?

After relocating to San Francisco a few years later, I searched and polled local Baptist churches and quickly realized that Tulsa did not hold a monopoly on Baptist churches operating under legalistic Christianity fueled by fear, ignorance and misinformation governed by well-meaning, but misguided Christians.

The first quote is from Life Site (http://www.lifesite.net/), an anti gay website discussing the misinformation websites like Soul Force spew out into the world. The second one is from here, Soul Force, a gay affirming website discussing the misinformation websites like Life Site spew out into the world.

It feels like there is a line drawn on the floor, and we stand on one side, and they stand on the other. No one wants to move, but we all want the other people on our side. How can we trust anyone if there is so much "misinformation" flying about? Don't you think by now God, or someone with a brain, would have said something that is so true and ultamatley undeniable that no one can can dispute it? Please someone, explain this without using the word "misinformation" because I am tired of hearing it.

How can we achieve change, if we are too busy fighting people with information? It feels like we are just throwing mashed potatoes at each other, just getting messier and messier and not willing to clean each other up.

[Jennifer5]

You're right Austin, and believe me I know what you mean about "misinformation"... the one that makes me sick everytime I hear it now though is, "it's all just a misunderstanding".

I think you're right on with line being set in place and you're on one side of the other. I think sometimes the issue is that maybe everyone is trying to hard. When you try and push someone out of their comfort zone to quickly, you get a very bad reaction. If we want to agree and get along with these people on the other side of the 'line', then we have to learn to first love them. Think about it, will you listen to you enemies? ..No, it's your friends that you're going to trust. Learn to love one another, and only then can progress be made.

(good topic, and I'll post more on this later... unfortunately I have to go for now)

[Daniel]

The use of the word 'misinformation' in the context that it is used by the persons/website in question only shows how the meaning of language is often twisted. What the writer in question is talking about is the party line of thought which believes the one can 'pray away the gay'. The thinking being that, if only more people were believers of a certain stripe, every one would be straight and all would be well with the world.

True knowledge - ie information- the sort which is evidenced by the sciences, shows that gay people have existed in all cultures and time periods. The only difference between our time and those past is the social context in which same sex activity took place and the significance attached to it.

Now- when those who posit that gay people can be made straight -and can produce the actual numbers - showing thousands who are now blissfully attracted to members of their own sex- then we can talk about information and misinformation.

There is a great difference between facts and assertions. A mind that does not want to see differences can hardly tell the difference.

This isn't a matter of sides, lines in the sand, or respect for religious beliefs. This is about our lives- and the having the freedom to live and thrive without religious oppression.

[tpdncr4christ]

This isn't a matter of sides, lines in the sand, or respect for religious beliefs. This is about our lives- and the having the freedom to live and thrive without religious oppression.

So how do we go about living without religious oppression. Better yet, how do we get to a point where both of us can coexist peacefully, and truly peacefully.

[BenL]

Austen,

You have hit the heart of the problem in your post. Is all this effort about winning or about reconciliation? If the first, then all's fair in love and war. Misinformation is a principal tool of making war. If it's about loving our neighbors, then it's peacemaking that's called for.

That said, I'm not suggesting that we all roll over and play dead. People have to be called out for untruth, especially when that untruth is used to hurt people. I believe that truthtelling is at the core of the Soulforce mission. But so is nonviolence, and that's a principal path to peace. It's the two together that I understand as the unique calling of Soulforce.

Your level of discernment belies your youth. Living what you believe is a noble undertaking and is often far more difficult to do than to propose.

Peace,

BenL

[u-dog]

It happened during Indian Independence movement, the Anti-apartheid movement, the American civil rights movement, during the suffrage movement, during the abolition movement. Any time a group of people want freedom and equality, someone has to stand up and ask for it. Then, when it is refused, they have to stand up and demand it. Then they have to demand it again and again and again until they get it. When misinformation and lies are used as weapons they must be refuted carefully and rationally and reasonably and an alternate vision of how things can be must be raised up. This is what MLK and Ghandi and Mandela and Susan B. Anthony and Frederick Douglas all did. When physical violence is used as a weapon then those demanding what is theirs by right must be willing to stand up and recieve that violence non-violently (thereby resisting it).

Remember the pictures of civil rights marchers being sprayed by firehoses and attacked by police dogs? Those pictures were what undermined the forces of Jim Crowe and convinced the "moderate middle" that the status quo was no longer tenable.

Someone said (here or on another thread I'm not sure -- maybe it was suzer?) that no one on the other side is ever convinced by arguments no matter how careful they are. That is true. BUT THE OTHER SIDE IS NOT WHO WE ARE TALKING TO!!! It is the moderate middle. AND THEY ARE WATCHING AND LISTENING. AND they are moving steadily in our direction!!

We are never going to convince James Dobson to change his mind, but there are a lot of people who are not yet our supporters but who are uncomfortable with his rhetoric. They are our audience. They are the ones who will defeat marriage amendments and vote the neo-cons out of office.

[Rick336]

u-dog,

Very well said bud. You definitely hit the nail on the head.

Rick

[Daniel]

So how do we go about living without religious oppression. Better yet, how do we get to a point where both of us can coexist peacefully, and truly peacefully.

David has put the whole matter in precise terms. It really is about going out and and meeting with those who have policies and laws that discriminate, going right up to their front door and speaking truth. To do this, one has to have tremendous inner resolve, stamina, as well as a commitment to the path of nonviolence. One can't take no for an answer.

This reminds me of the old tradition in India where one who was seeking a spiritual spiritual teacher was often turned away. In fact, a teacher worth his salt was expected to turn the student away. It was not until the student had come before the teacher three times that the students was then accepted.

Of course, the circumstances are different, but I believe the principle is the same: we must stand up again and again and again for our freedom. How badly do we really want it? The test is in how much we are committed to our own freedom as well as the freedom of all people. It's not others who we have to convince, but ourselves.

[Emproph]

You have hit the heart of the problem in your post. Is all this effort about winning or about reconciliation? If the first, then all's fair in love and war. Misinformation is a principal tool of making war. If it's about loving our neighbors, then it's peacemaking that's called for. I was talking to my dad recently and mentioned one of the lies the anti-gay lobby (FRC) used, and he retorted – rather matter of factly – “oh, so it’s political.” Since then I’ve been using, and understanding the word “political” as being synonymous with lies, as in the portion highlighted above.

It's become clear to me in the year since being here at Soulforce that the political goals of the religious right are to win at any cost, this includes the use of dishonesty. To that extent, reconciliation in and of itself is their enemy.

Our political agenda is to secure equal protection under the law, and they know this. If you’re of the supremacist ideology (as the religious right is), then the equality of those who are understood to be inferior is literally an attack on your superiority. They see us as dogs who want the same rights as humans, hence the idea of “special rights.”

Their goal is to redefine America in their supremacist image, we're just practice. It's a religious goal that can only be accomplished with the unwitting help of those who are liberal and/or non-religious altogether (our moveable middle). Thus the need to inspire fear and loathing through the use of intentional dishonesty.

Remember the pictures of civil rights marchers being sprayed by firehoses and attacked by police dogs? Those pictures were what undermined the forces of Jim Crowe and convinced the "moderate middle" that the status quo was no longer tenable.

Someone said (here or on another thread I'm not sure -- maybe it was suzer?) that no one on the other side is ever convinced by arguments no matter how careful they are. That is true. BUT THE OTHER SIDE IS NOT WHO WE ARE TALKING TO!!! It is the moderate middle. AND THEY ARE WATCHING AND LISTENING. AND they are moving steadily in our direction!!

We are never going to convince James Dobson to change his mind, but there are a lot of people who are not yet our supporters but who are uncomfortable with his rhetoric. They are our audience. They are the ones who will defeat marriage amendments and vote the neo-cons out of office.
Agreed. The only thing I would add is that the mainstream media has not picked up on the political aspect of the anti-gay religious movement. If they did, our “moveable middle” would fully understand that all the evil attributes of the so-called “homosexual agenda” apply entirely to the tactics of the religious right, and not to our fight for equality.

And for the record, most of the political/lies aspect of it is related to the leaders, like Dobson and ilk, not necessarily the followers. The problem is, most of the followers will usually ONLY listen to their leaders. When friends and family members start saying to them, “Hey did you hear what 60 minutes said about Dobson the other night?” then it might be a different story when it comes to reaching them.

[Jim Burroway]

Emproph,

You hit the problem squarely on the head.

I think there are some in Focus who are beginning to develop new messages directed at us which can be seen as "more loving". I saw what may be a test-drive of some of it at Love Won Out in Phoenix and in Alan Chamber's new book, "God's Grace and the Homosexual Next Door." Only time will tell of Focus actually adopts some of this language in the years to come.

But one thing I do know about Focus, moreso than FRC, is that they are extremely aware of how to use language according to the particular audience they are trying to reach.

[kara speltz]

Remember the pictures of civil rights marchers being sprayed by firehoses and attacked by police dogs? Those pictures were what undermined the forces of Jim Crowe and convinced the "moderate middle" that the status quo was no longer tenable.

Someone said (here or on another thread I'm not sure -- maybe it was suzer?) that no one on the other side is ever convinced by arguments no matter how careful they are. That is true. BUT THE OTHER SIDE IS NOT WHO WE ARE TALKING TO!!! It is the moderate middle. AND THEY ARE WATCHING AND LISTENING. AND they are moving steadily in our direction!!

We are never going to convince James Dobson to change his mind, but there are a lot of people who are not yet our supporters but who are uncomfortable with his rhetoric. They are our audience. They are the ones who will defeat marriage amendments and vote the neo-cons out of office.

Last year when Soulforce was in Colorado Springs to confront Dobson, we had a wonderful hotel clerk who was extremely helpful and friendly. She thought we were absolutely fabulous and always went out of her way to do little extra things for us. I learned in conversation that her mother actually worked at Focus on the Family.

I continue to believe, that our main job is just to show up and be out there as LGBTs reflecting God's love in all the dark corners of the world. Real change doesn't happen over night. It's slow, and plodding. Think about the South today. It's been almost 50 years since the first of the Jim Crow laws were overthrown, but racist attitudes still prevail. That's why Gandhi's and King's understanding of nonviolence is so important. Our enemies can only become our allys when love prevails.

Kara

[scott snedeker]

Change by attraction is stronger than opposition. This is also Abraham's message.

Austen, as usual your clarity inspires me.

I think the best is to display a contrast:
Love vs Fear.

Activate unconditional love of self and others and you will attract love. I think this is our best destiny

Actvate fear and judgement and a sense of inadequacy and you will cause repulsion. I think it is important that we avoid the temptation of doing this.

And let people use their feeling as a guide as to which is a true touchstone for them.

Kara, I am always enjoy reading your posts and am grateful for what you helped create here. Have you encountered Abraham's discipline of thought focus? If not I'll bet You'll find an interesting resource especially for non-christain folk like me to connect with spirituality and unconditional love www.Abraham-hicks.com

[kara speltz]

Change by attraction is stronger than opposition. This is also Abraham's message.

Austen, as usual your clarity inspires me.

I think the best is to display a contrast:
Love vs Fear.

Activate unconditional love of self and others and you will attract love. I think this is our best destiny

Actvate fear and judgement and a sense of inadequacy and you will cause repulsion. I think it is important that we avoid the temptation of doing this.

And let people use their feeling as a guide as to which is a true touchstone for them.

Kara, I am always enjoy reading your posts and am grateful for what you helped create here. Have you encountered Abraham's discipline of thought focus? If not I'll bet You'll find an interesting resource especially for non-christain folk like me to connect with spirituality and unconditional love www.Abraham-hicks.com


Dear Scott: I wasn't familiar with that particular website, but it reminds me a lot of a book I read years and years and years ago, before my return to being a Christian (eclectic style). The book was called, "The Nature of Personal Reality," and it was channeled by an essence named Zeth, if I recall correctly. It basically shares the same vision. While I consider myself a charismatic Catholic, my spiritual path is extremely eclectic having studied, wicca, buddism, yoruba, and huna religions. It all fits together for me. I've earmarked the Abraham site and will check it out in more depth. Thanks Scott.

[scott snedeker]

Kara,

You are indeed perceptive for Zeth is referenced by Abraham multiple times.

Thanks again.