Infringing on private schools rights

[josh]

Why do you insist on causing uproars and not honoring the rights of private schools? I have a close gay friend who strongly disagrees with your tactics as do I. You bring more ire than understanding with your false crusades. You choose to interpret the Bible and scripture in your own way, that is fine, I love the fact that we can all do that. But when you are unwanted at certain schools and still try to force your narrow ideas on others, it is poor taste and does more harm than good. You claim to have open minds but with your Equality rides you deliberately trespass (i.e. BYU last year) on other peoples property and rights, trying to do a good thing the wrong way doesn't mean it is right. I love gays and lesbians, I love all people. Don't fall into this fallacy crusade, when trying to preach your version of the gospel, no means no, if you are unwanted, accept it and move on to others more sympathetic of your cause. My ancestors were murdered because of public intolerance to their form of religion, I sympathize with your cause, and the persecution you face. Please don't try and force your version of life on others.

[keltic63]

welcome to the forums josh.

do you think that soulforce is performing some new kind of protest that hasn't been done before? what other ways might we bring these issues to the attention of the public and the schools that hold oppressive policies toward gay and lesbian students?

[andrewlittle]

Why do you insist on causing uproars and not honoring the rights of private schools?
What rights do private schools have? To what extent are they "private"? They participate in federal and state student loan programs, which taxpayers fund - all taxpayers, BTW - as well as the larger fabric of community and society. They are not churches - even if they are affiliated with them.

As to uproars, how do you go about disagreeing with someone - keeping silent? Judging by your presence here, I don't think so. You disagree - you entered a space to voice that disagreement - you stated an opinion - isn't that an uproar that should not have been caused, by your rational? Space is space - cyber or physical.

I have a close gay friend who strongly disagrees with your tactics as do I.
And you have voiced your opinion about that. Good for you (seriously). Even though your close friend is gay, he also disagrees. That is wonderful, and one of the benefits of a free (well, almost) society - we each get an opportunity not to just agree/disagree, but also to voice it.

Did all black people agree with the civil rights movement? Did all women agree with suffrage? Is the agreement of each and every oppressed, denigrated or rejected person required before campaigning for change? I don't think so.

You bring more ire than understanding with your false crusades.
Two unfounded assumptions. It is only your opinion, as well as that of SOME others, that this campaign is false. How do you know that "more ire than understanding" is brought? You are universalizing your opinions into facts, now, which is extremely arrogant.

You choose to interpret the Bible and scripture in your own way, that is fine, I love the fact that we can all do that. But when you are unwanted at certain schools and still try to force your narrow ideas on others, it is poor taste and does more harm than good.
Let's see - ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto and ditto. (see above)

At each and every Equality Ride event, people have sought to converse with the Riders - some of whom are GLBT; some of whom are straight looking for dialogue; some of whom are straight and pissed off royally. But none of whom were shackled, dragged to appear before the Riders, and forced to engage with them. FORCE is an interesting word - look it up a dictionary, okay.

While you're at it - check out the meaning of "narrow". Doubtless, it has excaped your attention that it is always a word indicating "exclusion" rather than "inclusion". The Riders seek to exclude no-one. How about you?

You claim to have open minds but with your Equality rides you deliberately trespass (i.e. BYU last year) on other peoples property and rights, ...
Lesson in English, rhetoric and logic - try to make sure that one part of a sentence has something to do with the next part. It might serve you well in being understood.

That property exists, at least to a small extent, because of taxpayers (see above). A school is, by its nature, public to some extent. You can disagree, your school administrators can disagree, the whole world can disagree, but that still has nothing to do with being open-minded. Actually, it would be the opposite.

... trying to do a good thing the wrong way doesn't mean it is right.
Your universalizing your opinion again.

Many people have discussed, funded, organized and campaigned for this and other civil rights issues. Many other people have criticized those efforts as "the wrong thing". Why is you opinion of greater value and merit than theirs?

I love gays and lesbians, I love all people. Don't fall into this fallacy crusade, when trying to preach your version of the gospel, no means no, if you are unwanted, accept it and move on to others more sympathetic of your cause. My ancestors were murdered because of public intolerance to their form of religion, I sympathize with your cause, and the persecution you face. Please don't try and force your version of life on others.

I could go on, but suffice it say, many people die seeking change - Indians, Indigenous Americans, South Africans, other Africans, Central and South Americans, Moaries, Aborigines, women, African-Americans, undocumented aliens, and, yes, GLBT folks. We can either be proud and learn from all these people, as we celebrate the benefits that they bestowed on us, or we can cower and be afraid while we continue to live in a prison in which we are then complicit. What did you learn from your ancestors struggles, besides fear?

[Daniel]

I love gays and lesbians, I love all people.

Josh- welcome to the forum.

What is at stake here is not a final and ultimate interpretation of the bible, as if one 'side' must win out. Far from it. As long as there are people alive there will be all sorts of interpretations of scripture.

The point here is that the civil liberties of gay persons are being circumvented by those who feel that the exercising of freedom of religion gives them the right to discriminate. I don't see how discrimination of any kind can be equated with freedom- much less religious freedom: It it antithetical to posit that one has freedom at the expense of another. It would be more accurate to say that limiting the freedom for any person ultimately places one in bondage. (Do you think that gay friend of yours should have the right to marry his/her partner? Be able to decide what should happen if that partner goes in the hospital? Not be fired because he/she is gay? Not be denied at place to live?)

If you really mean what you say above, I would think you would meet the ERide with open arms. That is, of course, unless you just like to hear yourself say nice words.

[Zerbie]

I wasn't gonna weigh in on this, especially as tired as I am right now, but I see I have opened the reply window despite my hesitation, so here goes.

Technically, a private space is a private space and I would agree that in such an environment, one is free to set the rules one desires. I've never had a personal issue with a Christian school's policies, beccause it would never occur to me to attend one - I would choose avoidance, and be happy to leave those schools to those who enjoy them as they are.

However - when or if public funding comes into play, then it is indeed a matter of taxpayers funding discrimination if a university or college receives state funds AND chooses to discriminate against gay people ("out" or otherwise). I am not clear myself on whether this is always the case, or whether some institutions are entirely privately funded. If they are run entirely on private funds, then I agree that *technically* they have a "right" to discriminate. Technically. Which is not the same thing as morally.

My school recently had a big brouhaha over whether its Christian campus club could be allowed to exclude homosexuals. As I recall it was ruled that they were permitted to exclude. I remember thinking that technically I agreed with the decision, though morally, I opposed their mandate of exclusion. What I would love to see would be that the "Christian" groups would choose to cease exclusion and discrimination out of their own free conscience. Apparently, for some groups, that isn't going to happen any time soon. I believe SF supports the E Ride as a means of opening the discussion, and offering hope to gay and questioning students at those institutions who may be feeling isolated.

To draw a parallel, and this may anger you Josh, but please take time to consider how analogous it really is, an older family member was talking to me about this issue of "freedom of expression" as desired by some "Christian" groups today. The outcry of some conservative christians is that the call for gay equality impinges on their freedom of religion, of association. They would be "forced" to "condone" homosexuals. My family member said, "I saw an interview in the 60s about the african-american civil rights movement. A white lady was interviewed about why she opposed it, and she said that allowing blacks to eat at "white" restaurants impinged on her *right* to eat at a restaurant where no black people were dining. The opposition to gay equality now sounds just like what that white lady said in the 60s."

[nmwolfboy]

But when you are unwanted at certain schools and still try to force your narrow ideas on others, it is poor taste and does more harm than good. You claim to have open minds but with your Equality rides you deliberately trespass (i.e. BYU last year) on other peoples property and rights, trying to do a good thing the wrong way doesn't mean it is right. I love gays and lesbians, I love all people. Don't fall into this fallacy crusade, when trying to preach your version of the gospel, no means no, if you are unwanted, accept it and move on to others more sympathetic of your cause.

I've seen responses from glbt BYU students who welcomed last year's SF Equality riders with much joy. Some of them braved arrest in welcoming the Ride. Though the administrations of the schools visited by the Equality Ride may not welcome Soulforce, the Riders definitely make a huge difference in the lives of the glbt students who already attend these schools. Since so many glbt students choose to suicide or are otherwise damaged when faced with the unloving and hurtful policies of these schools, it's clear that the Riders' visits are effective at the very least in prompting dialogue that makes a huge difference for good.

The Equality Ride is hardly in poor taste. It's a dedicated act of compassion. My question is this: if the administrations of these schools really have faith that their policies are right, why does the Equality Ride provoke such fearful reactions on their parts?

[NathanATX]

Josh,
Welcome to the forums.

Why do we go where we are not wanted?

Because our gay/bi/lesbian/trans/queer brothers & sisters are suffering immense spiritual & emotional violence at the hands of these religious schools.

I attended Oral Roberts University, I really know what it's like being gay on a homophobic campus.

The most heartbreaking effects of this spiritual & emotional violence is the violence these dear children of God end up commiting against themselves because they truly believe they are worthless and that God hates them.

They become addicted to alcohol and drugs. They become addicted to unsafe, promiscuous sex. And, tragically, many are unable to carry the weight of the religous persecution and end up killing themselves.

www.affirmation.org (http://www.affirmation.org) is a website for Gay Mormons.

Their suicide page is heartbreaking.

Here is one young man's story.


Douglas Cornell Stewart, Jr. (1973-2006)
http://www.affirmation.org/suicides/douglas_stewart.shtml (http://www.affirmation.org/suicides/douglas_stewart.shtml)

http://www.affirmation.org/images/suicides/doug_stewart.jpg
Douglas Cornell Stewart, Jr., was born July 5, 1973, in Provo, Utah. He committed suicide in St. Louis, Missouri, on March 8, 2006, exactly 30 years to the day his grandfather (http://www.affirmation.org/suicides/carlyle_marsden.shtml) committed suicide. Douglas was 32.

Douglas was a gifted cellist, and was a Utah Sterling Scholar in music. He served an honorable mission for the LDS Church starting in the Hamburg Germany Mission and finishing in the Minneapolis Minnesota Mission. Shortly after his mission, he married in the temple, but after a year of marriage he divorced his wife, came out to his family and friends, and became actively involved in the fight for homosexual rights.

Doug received his BA degree in Philosophy from Whitman College, in Walla Walla, Washington. He loved history, art, politics, animals, and nature, and was an avid reader. He is remembered for his sense of humor, his keen intellect, his compassion, and his winning smile.

He is survived by his parents, four sisters, and three brothers.

In 1998, Doug was one of the presenters at the Affirmation conference held in Portland, Oregon (http://www.affirmation.org/conference_archives/1998.shtml#doug_stewart). At that time he was 25.

Doug's maternal grandfather was Carlyle D. Marsden (http://www.affirmation.org/suicides/carlyle_marsden.shtml), a gay Mormon who took his life in 1976.

Doug was dearly loved by his family, and will be missed greatly. A graveside service, for family and friends, was held March 14th, 2006, at the Tonaquint Cemetery.


As people of faith and as a community commited to ending spiritual and emotional violence we are compelled to raise our voices to heaven over the devastated lives of our brothers and sisters.

If we don't do it, then who?

[josh]

I appreciate all who replied and I see the majority of you feel strongly about your cause, I guess it's better than apathy. Some of you have sought to 'debunk' my 'opinions' intellectually and some sought to appeal to the emotional side, and some sought to insult my opinion (i.e. hear myself say nice things), either way I appreciate your responses. It is true when I wrote my initial thread I sought a reaction, some were angry, and some were respectful in voicing their opinions. Now I feel I better understand the people who are attempting to champion this cause, which is what I was hoping for (understanding). I also feel many of you have much anger concerning the way you've been treated. May I humbly suggest counseling and using the atonement of Jesus Christ in your lives, I was abused as a child and counseling has really helped me channel my anger and ill feelings. I don't say this in an arrogant way, please don't misconstrue it in that manner. I wish you all the best and I hope you are treated with respect wherever you go, and remember those who disagree with you are people too, and their opinion counts just as much as yours.

[keltic63]

I appreciate all who replied and I see the majority of you feel strongly about your cause, I guess it's better than apathy. well, we're not part of soulforce because we're apathetic!!!! :lol: :lol: Some of you have sought to 'debunk' my 'opinions' intellectually and some sought to appeal to the emotional side, and some sought to insult my opinion (i.e. hear myself say nice things), either way I appreciate your responses. It is true when I wrote my initial thread I sought a reaction, interesting that you admit this now. why kind of reaction were you hoping for? some were angry, and some were respectful in voicing their opinions. Now I feel I better understand the people who are attempting to champion this cause, which is what I was hoping for (understanding). I also feel many of you have much anger concerning the way you've been treated. May I humbly suggest counseling and using the atonement of Jesus Christ in your lives, I was abused as a child and counseling has really helped me channel my anger and ill feelings. I don't say this in an arrogant way, please don't misconstrue it in that manner. I wish you all the best and I hope you are treated with respect wherever you go, and remember those who disagree with you are people too, and their opinion counts just as much as yours.

I can't help but feel you might have considered this before making your first ranting post.
In this case though, we're not really talking about opinions; we're talking about policies and prejudices that cause spiritual, and sometimes physical violence against lgbt people.

[NathanATX]

I appreciate all who replied and I see the majority of you feel strongly about your cause, I guess it's better than apathy. Some of you have sought to 'debunk' my 'opinions' intellectually and some sought to appeal to the emotional side, and some sought to insult my opinion (i.e. hear myself say nice things), either way I appreciate your responses. It is true when I wrote my initial thread I sought a reaction, some were angry, and some were respectful in voicing their opinions. Now I feel I better understand the people who are attempting to champion this cause, which is what I was hoping for (understanding). I also feel many of you have much anger concerning the way you've been treated. May I humbly suggest counseling and using the atonement of Jesus Christ in your lives, I was abused as a child and counseling has really helped me channel my anger and ill feelings. I don't say this in an arrogant way, please don't misconstrue it in that manner. I wish you all the best and I hope you are treated with respect wherever you go, and remember those who disagree with you are people too, and their opinion counts just as much as yours.

No, you may not suggest counseling.

We're not angry about the way WE are being treated.

We are horrified by the abuse that is happening to the students in religious schools.
We are repulsed by the use of God's name in condoning and encouraging this violence.
We are committed to standing up for those who can not stand up for themselves without putting themselves at risk of more violence.

[u-dog]

I also appreciate the fact that Josh is staying engaged with us and didnt just pop in, pull the pin on his grenade and run off. His comments, right and wrong, are made in good faith and I appreciate them. I hope you stay in conversation with us Josh! God bless.

[Zerbie]

Hello again Josh,

One doesn't necessarily become an activist out of anger, nor necessarily because one was mistreated oneself. For my own part, I love my gay friends deeply and know that they deserve to be included in the social world with the same complete acceptance that their straight counterparts receive. Seeking what is right need not be an act of anger. Quite the contrary, in fact. ;)

You will run into some angry "gay activists" now and then, but most really angry people will not be attracted to the energy and style of Soulforce. They will be elsewhere for the most part. Here, you find kind compassionate gentle people who seek what is right and best for ALL. I doubt that anyone here will seriously devalue you as a person.

One point of contention however. AS to 'opinions' different from Soulforce, this is about much more than an opinion or a belief. It's about people's lives, their experiences, and their innermost hearts. Their spiritual journeys. That amounts to far, far more than an opinion - it's an entire lived reality, and anti-gay "opinions" do a lot of harm to real, innocent people. We will oppose you relentlessly on the "opinion" matter. It's not out of anger to you, who we barely know. It's out of love and concern for our fellow human beings, innocent people, who do not deserve the earthly hell they have been thrust into by such opinions.

The strong language is not meant to condemn you Josh, but I do ask you to think again and again and again about these matters. Do you know what kinds of discrimination gay people face, institutionally? Do you have any idea what kind of internal hell it is to be gay and sincerely believe that means there is evil in you? Do you know what is at stake for the gay community?

Lastly, many of the people you are posting to on these forums ARE commited Christians already, so suggesting Christ to them is a bit unnecessary.

[Joe Allen]

When I was going to Oral Roberts University, which is a private non-church affiliated institution of higher learing, in the spring of 1977, they initiated the "No Fat Students" rule (my name for it).

That semester, I went into the Health Office in the Aerobics Center for therapy on my knees problem shortly after that new rule was enacted.

I was put on a diet program by ORU's doctor and was told that what my ideal weight and body fat (for my height) was supposed to be and if I did not reach that weight within so many pounds or my body fat was at a certain percentage, I would not be allowed to be on campus the fall semester.

Well, while I weighed 183 lbs, they told me that I should weigh 140 according to their charts. I did agree to try to get my body to fit their new guidelines.

I did not need to be put on an exercise program since I worked out 7 days a week and lifted weights every other day of the week while going to school that spring semester.

I weighed 144 lbs. when I went back to the ORU campus and reported to the Health office in the Aerobics center. My body fat was even better than what they had requested.

(The truth is that due to my body type and the fact that I have short legs and arms, my real ideal weight is 160 lbs. And, a few years ago, my VA doctor said so. I told him that I weighed 160 when I turned 18. I was not considered fat at that weight. I am 5'4" tall; but, my body length is more the size of what a person would have that is over 6' tall. In fact, sitting down, I appeared to be at least an inch taller than either of my brothers who were 6' tall.)

I did not know it at the time; but, since the VA Education Bill was paying for books and tuition and I had a federal government loan to pay all of my other expenses at ORU, what ORU doing was illegal.

Some other students who got government grants and loans to attend ORU got the US Government involved in the situation and made ORU drop that rule.

While I don't want to close down ORU, I still like its original purpose; I would like to see the US Government get involved in regard to its no homosexuals rule in the Student Honor Code.

From what I understand, it is against the law for any institution, business, or corporation which gets and/or accepts federal funds to discriminate against anyone because of their sexual orientation.

I would find it quite interesting if some current students who are openly gay away from ORU and are getting government grants, loans, benefits, etc. would tell ORU that they are gay and have a right to an education at ORU because of federal law.

And, if ORU kicked them out, they would file a complaint of discrimination against ORU with the federal government.

I am disable and on fixed income and I have a HUD rental voucher program helping me pay part of my rent. Property owners who rent to those who get help from a HUD agency and they in turn accept the HUD money are not allowed to discriminate against someone because of their sexual orientation. That Federal rule applied before it was legal to be openly gay in Oklahoma.

[Joe Allen]

Why do we go where we are not wanted?

Because our gay/bi/lesbian/trans/queer brothers & sisters are suffering immense spiritual & emotional violence at the hands of these religious schools.

I attended Oral Roberts University, I really know what it's like being gay on a homophobic campus.

The most heartbreaking effects of this spiritual & emotional violence is the violence these dear children of God end up commiting against themselves because they truly believe they are worthless and that God hates them.

They become addicted to alcohol and drugs. They become addicted to unsafe, promiscuous sex. And, tragically, many are unable to carry the weight of the religous persecution and end up killing themselves.

If we don't do it, then who?

I attended ORU as a graduate theology student during the school terms of 75-76, 76-77 and 77-78. I was in the closet in those days like a whole lot of other students, both undergrads and grad students. In 1992-94, I found that I knew a few folks who left the closet after they were graduated from ORU. One of them was on my wing in the dorm and he had dated the woman who later became the assistant pastor of the MCC I attended for several years. Another one attended the same Tulsa Church I did when I was still in the closet. I met Ray before I went to ORU but, I did not know that he was gay until 1986. Ray still attends the same Assembly of God in Tulsa. I don't know if the pastor, Phil, knows he is gay or not; but, Phil knows that I am and he has no problem with my minstry for the Lord.

In 1998 and in years thereafter, I found out a whole lot of guys whom I knew when I went to ORU were in the closet back then. One of them was my first roomie at ORU.

Oh, the folks in charge of ORU and the Roberts family are in denial of the fact that Ronald Oral Roberts, the late older brother of Richard, was openly gay before he died. They only admit that he "had a drug problem." But, the drug problem was related to his family and the fact that his ex-wife would not let him see his children.

[andrewlittle]

I appreciate all who replied and I see the majority of you feel strongly about your cause, I guess it's better than apathy. Some of you have sought to 'debunk' my 'opinions' intellectually and some sought to appeal to the emotional side, and some sought to insult my opinion (i.e. hear myself say nice things), either way I appreciate your responses.
I'm not sure what you expected, Josh. You obviously felt strongly about the issue you brought up in your first post, and stated such. It shouldn't be surprising, though, that the very organization that promotes Freedom Riders would have a great many people who feel strongly about the issue. No, we are not apathetic. That would go without saying, I think.

While I could be wrong (not the first time if I am), the remainder of the quote above seems just a little bit duplicitous. You stated certain things in your post. How would you like us to express our disagreement with those things? Was there a better way?

I, for one, did not debunk your opinions - debunking refers to disproving facts. What I did do was to try to bring to your attention that idolizing opinions to the point of treating them as facts is inherently arrogant and misguided.

I also feel many of you have much anger concerning the way you've been treated. May I humbly suggest counseling and using the atonement of Jesus Christ in your lives, I was abused as a child and counseling has really helped me channel my anger and ill feelings. I don't say this in an arrogant way, please don't misconstrue it in that manner.

Knowing the people who responded as I do, I think you misread the posts if you perceived anger in any of the responses - some frustration, perhaps, but no anger. If I appeared angry in my response to you, I would say that would be because you are unfamiliar with my style (this is probably true also for the others). If in doubt, there are a few posts on this forum in which I did express anger. This post pales by any standard of anger. (This is not intended to be humorous, BTW)

My passion, which you may interpret as anger, does not result from the way I have been treated. I have always been treated with the respect that is extended towards a member of the white, middle and upper class, male, heterosexual, educated dominant culture, since that is what I am. You may largely recognize much of that privileged social location, I would guess.

I do have a passion for fighting injustice in general, and for alleviating the damage done to my GLBT sisters and brothers in particular, especially when it is done in the name of Christianity.

So I do take a certain amount of umbrage at the two suggestions you made. I can fully appreciate that you did not mean them in a way that was arrogant, but arrogance can, indeed, be unintentional when it results from belonging to a privilege social location.

You came onto this forum objecting to a campaign which we embrace. We defended that campaign. You, then, seem to get defensive because we defended the campaign against your seemingly unwarranted assumptions. Our reaction seems quite predictable and rational - therefore I think the suggestion of counseling, intended or not, is arrogant. You seem offended that we should defend. Did you expect otherwise? If so, who is out of touch?

As to "using the atonement of Jesus Christ in our lives", well therein lies a great deal of arrogance, however unintended it may be. (When I refer to arrogance, I am not positing that YOU are arrogant, but that you are coming from a social and religious perspective that is systemically arrogant. This is not a personal attack, okay? See below, if you will.) All of the people who responded are spiritual people; most are Christians; at least two are ministers of mainline denominations. Many of use use more than the atonement of Christ in our lives, opting also to include the life, ministry, message and resurrection of Christ to guide our paths.

Assuming there is "one right way" or one defining form of Christianity or social ethic is inherently arrogant. It is also something that many of us buy into and use in our arguments, thereby extending its arrogance without intending to be arrogant.

I wish you all the best and I hope you are treated with respect wherever you go, and remember those who disagree with you are people too, and their opinion counts just as much as yours.
Thank you, and the very same to you. One way to encourage that is to engage in dialogue, which I also hope you will stay and do. You may not believe this, but you have not been disrespected in these posts. If disrespect had been intended, the message would have been loud and clear. We have extended the hand of dialogue and discussion, and I for one pray that you choose to "stay and play". All of us will be the better for it, I believe.

[josh]

;) Once again, I'm back, out of the responses I've recieved I appreicate u-dog's reply the most, even though we are discussing on-line I still feel a sense of humility and understanding in their words. Don't hate me or be angered because I've pondered 'my opinion' again and again and I still am at odds with your way of thinking, some posts portray the attitude that gays and lesbians have the 'market cornered' on persecution and no one else can 'feel their pain', lets not be so naive. It is true I dont understand the intense persecution homo-sexuals face, but it is false to believe you are the only ones that have faced persecution.

[andrewlittle]

Glad to hear it. I look forward to continued discussion. I'm not being a smart-ass with this next comment, but maybe u-dog (Dave, by the way) would be a good "moderator" and voice of reason if things get touchy.

[NathanATX]

;) Once again, I'm back, out of the responses I've recieved I appreicate u-dog's reply the most, even though we are discussing on-line I still feel a sense of humility and understanding in their words. Don't hate me or be angered because I've pondered 'my opinion' again and again and I still am at odds with your way of thinking, some posts portray the attitude that gays and lesbians have the 'market cornered' on persecution and no one else can 'feel their pain', lets not be so naive. It is true I dont understand the intense persecution homo-sexuals face, but it is false to believe you are the only ones that have faced persecution.

Who has said we are the only ones who have suffered?

So you're ok with violence committed against GLBT young people because others have suffered too?

Is that "compassion?"

Josh, the Equality Ride is about helping people become aware of the effects of the spiritually and emotionally violent words and actions that GLBT students have to endure at religious schools.

Anyone can claim ignorance once. When you don't know you're hurting someone and they tell you the impact of your words and actions, you should stop. The Equality Ride is drawing a line in the sand. They are once and for all telling these schools their anti-gay policies have very real, human, child-of-God VICTIMS.

Continuing to be violent after one has been alerted this way is nothing but commiting intentional violence because of stubborn pride.

Nate

[u-dog]

I don't think anyone here thinks or is claiming that we are the only people ever to experience persecution or oppression, however the fact that we share that dubious spotlight with others doesn't soften the experience for those who have been and are being diminished by it. I feel a little guilty for including myself in that group since I have lived comfortably under the shelter of white, male, hetero privelege most of my life (even if I did cower in fear of disccovery the whole time and inflict a quarter century of suffering on myself and the best person I know in order to stay under cover)

"Injustice ANYWHERE threatens justice EVERYWHERE" -- MLK jr.

the oppression of GLBT persons takes an enormous toll not only on GLBT persons but on everyone -- yourself included (I am assuming that you are straight -- if thats wrong forgive me). The depth of love and friendship that you can have and express with a male friend is circumscribed by the fear that you will be thought "gay" that is a loss to you and to all straight men that is directly caused by homophobia and oppression. Our churches and schools and companies, and armed forces and all of our other institutions are robbed of the gifts that GLBT people have to offer. It is a loss to EVERYONE and it all boils down to a hatred born of fear born of ignorance.

[kara speltz]

;) Once again, I'm back, out of the responses I've recieved I appreicate u-dog's reply the most, even though we are discussing on-line I still feel a sense of humility and understanding in their words. Don't hate me or be angered because I've pondered 'my opinion' again and again and I still am at odds with your way of thinking, some posts portray the attitude that gays and lesbians have the 'market cornered' on persecution and no one else can 'feel their pain', lets not be so naive. It is true I dont understand the intense persecution homo-sexuals face, but it is false to believe you are the only ones that have faced persecution.

Dear Josh: Wow, your statement about we're not the only ones who have faced persecution comes out of the arrogance of entitlement and privelege.
Surely, we have not as a people, been sent to gas chamers; or lynched simply because we are the "wrong color," and for most of us our lives involve a great deal of privelege as well as unintentionally oppressing others.
But if you would actually do your research instead of pontificating, you would see the devastating, life threatening effects of homophobia.

The fact is that we, as people of faith should take seriously the
dehumanizing of any one. We can't say to someone - oh, they had it worse, especially if you are standing in a place of privelege, because the acceptance of that privelege is, I believe, in and of itself, a sinful act.

What I would recommend is spending some time with the Equality Ride video and allow yourself to take it all in, in a prayerful way. If it doesn't bring you to tears, then pray for the capacity of compassion, because it appears to be a virtue, you have not spent a lot of time embracing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycYoMnhopp0

Kara

[Zerbie]

;) Once again, I'm back, out of the responses I've recieved I appreicate u-dog's reply the most, even though we are discussing on-line I still feel a sense of humility and understanding in their words. Don't hate me or be angered because I've pondered 'my opinion' again and again and I still am at odds with your way of thinking, some posts portray the attitude that gays and lesbians have the 'market cornered' on persecution and no one else can 'feel their pain', lets not be so naive. It is true I dont understand the intense persecution homo-sexuals face, but it is false to believe you are the only ones that have faced persecution.

Okay, let's not play the Who Has Been Hurt game. Wrong is wrong, no matter who the "victim" is.

Since you say you don't understand the intense persecution homosexuals face (and have faced for generations) I ask you to learn about it, from first-hand experiences. There is a lot you can read, or you can start by simply asking folks here. Find out what it is that is being objected to, before you seek to place a barricade in the way of rectifying those wrongs.

It's not a way of "thinking," Josh. It's a way of loving. If I love my neighbor, I'm not going to sit idly by and say "Well that's okay," if his employer fires him for being gay (to name only one example of the sorts of things that happen to gay people often.)

[josh]

According to Kara I am white and heterosexeual and privileged, those are interesting conclusions to jump to. Maybe I'm purple and asexual:lol: , and poverty stricken. {edited combative statement}

[kara speltz]

According to Kara I am white and heterosexeual and privileged, those are interesting conclusions to jump to. Maybe I'm purple and asexual:lol: , and poverty stricken. Thanks for the hate Kara. I guess hetero's aren't the only ones with narrow minds

See you don't even comprehend, that there is no hate in my statement:unhappy: If I'm wrong, about your background, please help me understand. I have folks of all persuasions in my life. Gay, straight, black, white, very rich and very poor. I made the conclusion that I did, because your postings reek of arrogance - an arrogance I rarely see in people who have experienced oppression. So fill me in Josh. I'd love to find a place where we can come together, and that is never in lording it over another. Common ground comes from our shared suffering. Kara

[keltic63]

According to Kara I am white and heterosexeual and privileged, those are interesting conclusions to jump to. Maybe I'm purple and asexual:lol: , and poverty stricken. {edited combative statement}

OK, I didn't see the combative statement, but I'm going to step in here as well and say that we need to be careful about reading these posts carefully. I went back to kara's only post in this thread, it is unedited, and thus it is the original. She refers to heterosexual and white skin privilege, but she in no way made that statement in an assumption about you, josh.

many of us have shared personal stories in this thread. we've invited you to dialogue. please do that with us, instead of throwing bombs at each other.

[u-dog]

Josh, take a breath buddy! There wasn't anything hateful in what Kara said. The world looks different if you are NOT white, male, and heterosexual than it does if you ARE any or all of those things. I am white, male, and to all appearances (including the wife and grown children) heterosexual. I can and do enjoy the privelege that comes from it. But being, (despite appearances) gay, I am also aware of what I would be giving up (my career, my status in my community, the good will of many of my neighbors) if it were to become known generally that I am gay. I have endured close to 30 years of chronic depression keeping that information under wraps, monitoring my every word, pretending to feelings I didn't have, shutting down my emotional responses to other boys and (in the fullness of time) men. even though I have been able to enjoy privelege... it has cost me in other ways. I'm currently in the process of changing careers and coming out in order to live more authentically. I believe that it will be worth what it costs.

Being a white, male, wealthy, heterosexual does not make you a bad person. It simply affects how you see the world. It allows you to overlook the suffering of others as though it doesn't exist... because you take advantage of what privelege offers without realizing that it IS privelege. I think what people are asking you to do is to listen to people who have different experiences than yours and to learn from them.

You seem like an intelligent and well-meaning young man, I hope you stay here and get to know the folks who are here. They are good folks. They are not hateful. Even if they are jumping down your throat because you piss them off -- they don't hate you.

Dave (u-dog)

PS If you are IN FACT, purple, and not white... please let us know and we will take you off of the white privelege list

[josh]

I was just teasing Kara, she seems like a sweet lady, I admit, one of my many faults is that I often search for reactions, which is counter-productive to this blog, so please accept my apologies. Personal attacks on character I feel are counter-productive as well (i.e. lack of compassion, arrogant). I have been chastised on this blog for using generalizations and some of you are falling into them, I hope you are not chastised as well. In historian circles it is called the 'fallacy of mass man', when millions of individual living men are charged into "masses" and are thereby deprived of individuality itself. Thanks for the concern Dave and Keltic, you seem like great guys.

[marutidas]

Namaste Josh,

Well, Where to begin, Some many have said so much already, calm and balanced, even with you very pointed comments.
*Deep Breath*Release*

OK,
First of all, can you put your self in someone else's shoes, can you understand where we are coming from? Many of us have had our trials trying to find understand ourselves, our sexuality and our place i the world with God in it. Next try to imagine that people revile you for no more than being different from them, calling you an abomination or unnatural and that God hates you.

The view that we hate christians or that we are merely interpreting the Bible to fit us is false.One would point out the same thing happening in the consevitive movement,Considering the verses and passages not used in modern life such as it being a sin to Touch the skin of a dead pig or to be divorced or wearing clothing made of two different materials and so on and so forth. AS you may or not know is that there are 6 verses that condem us, but both Jesus and God are silent on this issue, why is that? Or the mountains of Pyscological or Sociological and Pathological reseach saying that it is not a Sickness and has not appeard in the American Psycologist handbook of pathology since 1973.

Just please think about that before you continue with this line of very pointed discussion, please think and pray about this.

~~~Maruti Das:flower:

[suzer1013]

Hi Josh, and welcome to Soulforce. :)

When reading your posts here, I was struck by something. Let me state first that while I support the Soulforce Equality Ride, I do also have questions about its effectiveness. But I will support it because I believe in the message of freedom from religious and political oppression for GLBT people.

What struck me was this: there are Mormon missionaries who come to my house once or twice a year to try and convert me. They arrive unannounced and are unwanted on my private property. I also see Mormon television commercials on television, which are trying to promote the LDS church, and that is broadcast on my private property. The only way not to see the commercials would be to turn off my television, but I enjoy certain shows so I continue to watch. As for the missionaries, I am polite to them, and send them away with kind refusals.

What are the similarities between missionaries proselytizing door to door and with the Equality Ride? What are the differences?

Susan

[josh]

Thanks for being kind Susan, you sound like a great caring woman.

[josh]

Well, I have appreciated all your responses concerning the grenade I threw in my first post, the reaction was more positive than I expected, and so I have learned a good deal (I feel) about the sons and daughters of God who are carrying out this crusade and their own personalized version of Christianity (which we all have, since no one is the same). I wish nothing but peace in your lives and I'm sorry that I truly don't agree with your cause (just as I am sure you don't believe in mine). But even though we disagree on certain things, I hope we can agree that Jesus Christ truly is the Savior of the World, the Redeemer of all mankind, and our friend through this arduos journey of life. "En nome de Jesus Christo, Amen."

[suzer1013]

Josh, I'm glad you came back, but I'm sorry you didn't answer the questions I posed. I really am interested in the answer.

Would anyone else care to discuss the similarities and differences between the Equality Ride and door-to-door missionaries? I really do see the two as very similar. Anyone else have an opinion about this?

Susan

[scott snedeker]

Josh,

I sense in you words an openness to expand your understanding of unconditional love of self and others.

In my youth I spoke out against another gay guy in highschool because I felt threatened that he was revealing that I was gay. He reflected what I feared in myself. It took a long time for me to forgive myself for hurting him.

Whether or not you have attraction to the same sex and this gay friend is in fact you or not is immaterial. I think that deep down if your connection to uncondtional love is strong enough, you will overcome any fear or discomfort of your own nature or the nature of others.

If I can forgive myself and love myself, then forgiving others and connecting with unconditional love of others follows easily without effort.

Your inner spirit has great love for you. It has enough love for you to love yourself and others unconditionally.

My part in soulforce is to spread this message of unconditional love; a message so needed in gay folks who are not in good connection with their entitlement to the unconditional love of self, and to others who's barrier to love prevents them from sharing it with gay people

[josh]

I agree Scott, I appreciate you for accepting me despite the differences of our beliefs, I feel you are truly emulating Jesus Christ when you show this unconditional love, and when the time comes when we meet the Lord, I pray that he blesses your name for understanding this principle, I myself would hope to some day(whether in this life or the next) reach the point of unconditonal love, sadly though, I must battle the biases, imperfections, and misconceptions that we all struggle with in this world. I have read literature concerning both sides of the homsexual argument, and I have come to the conclusion that I must try to love all people, and whatever confusion or arguments we as human beings have, I know that when we meet the Lord face to face and bathe his feet with our tears in gratitude for his infinite merciful atonement, that he will provide us with a perfect understanding.

[scott snedeker]

sadly though, I must battle the biases, imperfections, and misconceptions that we all struggle with in this world. I have read literature concerning both sides of the homsexual argument, and I have come to the conclusion that I must try to love all people.......

I think you have won many of these battles already!:) :)

Imagine how you will feel after you win more of them!:love: