Waiting

[tpdncr4christ]

Forewarning: I am looking for advice, logical reasoning, you know, the stuff adult folks can do better than teenagers. Just want to know what to wait for.

Ok so I know about abstinence before marriage, right? But since, at the moment, we can't get married, what do we wait for? Gay marriage isn't exactly around the corner... so... Now I'm not saying I plan on going out on my 18th b-day and getting laid, but I want to know what I am saving myself for... you know? Its no fun to wait for something you can never have. :confused: :confused: :confused:

[u-dog]

Austin,

What we are all fighting and advocating for is the public and official recognition of something that already exists in the hearts and lives of many gay people. we are struggling toward the legal recognition of gay marriage.

That is an important struggle and one worth fighting for, but it IS JUST the recognition. A marriage is made within and between human hearts and (in my experience) in the heart of God. The marriage license doesn't make a marriage real... the covenantal love between two people that echoes the covenant love of God (and draws on God's sustaining power) is what makes it real. When you are ready and agree with another person that you are both ready and you commit your lives and futures to each others care ... then... you will be married. You will probably want (if I have correctly understood your values) to solemnize that reality in some way.. in front of God in front of friends and family.

Whether you want to wait until then to have sex depends on the your own values and your own understanding of the "meaning" of sex. I personally believe that sex has its deepest joy and most profound meaning within the context of a covenanted relationship and that that's what God intended for us. others believe differently. And even if you believe it too, does that mean that you won't have sex until you meet Mr. right? I dunno.

I do know this, though, Austin. I rejoice that you live in an age when a young Christian gay man even has the opportunity to ask these questions. I am overwhelmed with anticipation of the opportunities your life will bring. You are really part of the first generation of young, Christian, gay people who have come of age with the freedom to create the kind of life that you want and the kind of life that will reflect your own self-affirming Christian values. God is certainly smiling.

GD

[scott snedeker]

If love-making feels like the next step to an intimate encounter go with it and be safe. Carry condoms to an intimate encounter so you will not give in to unsafe sex for the sake of spontaneity.

If you inner voice says its not time, then wait. You are your own man with the soul of a man! Your inner being will not mislead you!

Remenber be intimate if it is what YOU want, not for someone elses approval. But don't not do it to please someone else either.

It should be a new joy. You will have good sex at times and not so good sex other times. Remember that you are entitled to joy and adult fulfillment.

[bryanf]

And we most also remember marriage and its ceremony has changed so greatly over the years. It has shifted from being for some communities a sheer family event with the patriarch presiding over it w/ no legal representivies there to religious and/or civil ceremonies. I would encourage you to take a closer look at the sociological development of marriage. It is really interesting. But basically in a sense I do believe we can be in a marriage without the state officially recognizing us. But dang it being a gay guy I have to admit without the formal recognition of the state it can be so hard sometime to wait for that special LTR guy and actually find him. Just be careful about some guys who speak all this garbage about being in an LTR in order to get you in to the sac. Evermore am I starting to understand why so often straight girls get so mad at guys.

-B.Ryan.F.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

Well, there are churches that have their own marriage ceremonies regardless of what the stupid state says. (Double alliteration, I rock;) ) What U-dog said goes along with this as well. The state can't really define marriage. They have no true authority, only God does.

[andrewlittle]

Forewarning: I am looking for advice, logical reasoning, you know, the stuff adult folks can do better than teenagers. Just want to know what to wait for.

Ok so I know about abstinence before marriage, right? But since, at the moment, we can't get married, what do we wait for? Gay marriage isn't exactly around the corner... so... Now I'm not saying I plan on going out on my 18th b-day and getting laid, but I want to know what I am saving myself for... you know? Its no fun to wait for something you can never have. :confused: :confused: :confused:

Well, to best fulfill the expectation of an older adult, the first thing would be to remind you to do as I say, not as I did. (Of course, there's serious doubt you would do as I did, in the first place, but I digress.)

My first responsibility is to say to you that it behooves you to wait until you are at least 35 before having any thoughts whatsoever about sex. Okay? That way you have the best chance possible for entering into a relationship knowing the least about your partner's suitability in one of the most intimate ways you will express your love for each other. This is absolutely necessary if GLBT are to match a 50% divorce rate of heterosexuals. Abstinence is the best way to remain virginal, as well as to have anticipated the moment to the extent that dysfunction of some kind can be guaranteed.

On the other hand, if you are intent on not abstaining until you can't remember what you are abstaining from, then always use temperance.

Temperance says that, if there is a strong attraction, but a gut feel that you're not too sure about this, wait until next time maybe. Don't be in a hurry to share your most intimate experience, unless you're quite sure it's the right thing for BOTH of you.

Run like a striped-ass ape if your date says something like, "Oh, come on - you owe me this much" or if you realize that your date has yet to use your name, opting instead for the ubiquitous "sweetie" or "buns of fire".

Also, think twice if your date has asked what it is that you really want out of a relationship, and then says, "Boy, that's exactly what I'm looking for." Your experiences won't match mine, of course, but each time that happened to me it cost me a house.

Lastly, to be sure you've found Mr Right, nothing works like bringing up the "Pre-Nuptual Agreement." If that doesn't keep you waiting, nothing will.

[tpdncr4christ]

What's LTR?

[Jamie McDaniel]

Well, I didn't make it until I was married (four months from now) but I did wait a loooong time (longer than my heterosexual church friends I believe) while searching for mister right. I don't feel like I missed out, although if I had been hit by a truck in my late twenties I certainly would have. :lol:

So I still believe True Love Waits (modified to be inclusive of LGBTs of course) is a good path for teenagers and young adults, especially those of faith, because it challenges us when we are young, in the midst of all our urges, to give sexual intimacy a special place, rather than a casual occurrence. However I also understand that we have human needs and fulfilling our sexual longings is a very strong need indeed. So I agree about being safe and making sure you know how a condom works (I didn't at 18 :o )

On the marriage thing, u-dog is exactly right. We're not fighting for marriage, we're fighting for the legal, clerical, and societal recognition of what already exists. An important distinction to be sure.

Added: Ok, I just read Andrew's post that appeared while I was typing mine. That was great! And as another suggestion, go watch the video in this thread (www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1238).

And seeing that you are a Grey's Anatomy fan (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2247), let me bluntly add that there are other ways to "scratch the itch" (as Addison challenged McSteamy to do for 60 days) while waiting for the right one. It's not like one's sex drive must have no release when not in a relationship. Ok, that's all I'm saying about that. Perhaps Andrew has something else wise to tell the young people.

[NathanATX]

Wait for love.
Wait for commitment.
Wait for the time when you and your partner can say you are really ready.

[Daniel]

That's what think anyway.

(LTR means Long Term Relationship)

What do you have to look forward to? I'd like to answer your question in this way:

I've been in three major relationships in my life as a gay man- the third relationship has endured for 15 years. My perspective is that being in love and making a life with another man is not a simple matter of finding the 'right person'. The person is only part of the equation.

Our parents are our first models in the relationship department. And aside from the whole matter of gender roles, our 'love map', as another poster put it, is encoded in our brains. I saw that clearly in my first relationship- in hindsight of course! What I've come to understand is that we gain perspective as well as experience as we age/mature if we keep our eyes, ears and minds open. We can choose what we want to keep from our parents, what we want to build on, and what we want to change or modify. If we're blessed with loving- and after we come out- excepting parents, our journey in love is all that much smoother. If not, it can be hard. Self loathing- internalized homophobia- can ravage one's relationships.

Ceremony makes a difference- that I can attest to. But it's not magic. It can't make up for what isn't already present in a relationship. And when the goodies that accompany new found love diminish as they must (one would probably die or become enlightened if one stayed in the-cosmic-explosion-skies-have-opened-love-is-all-there-is feeling forever), the stuff lurking in the shadows makes itself known. And what do I mean by stuff? All that needs healing. And everyone has something that needs healing. A loving relationship means that one has the opportunity and the privilege to grow into one's Self with one's Beloved. One learns what it means to love, which is something altogether more than a feeling.

My sense, to put it simply, is that Love has its way with us. Sometimes I think we each pick our own personal lesson in love before we arrive here.

And a practical matter (I won't be coy here): enjoy yourself. Learning to be wonderful lover takes practice and an awareness of one's own body. Self-pleasuring isn't something to be ashamed of. The simple truth is that we can't take someone to a place we're never been to before- which is another way of saying we can't give what we don't have.

It's not for nothing that the Trantrics among us teach that the orgasmic state is the place where spirit touches matter. Seeing one's beloved as the holy face of God doesn't hurt either.

[Zerbie]

According to what my driver's license says, I qualify as an adult. :p
A lot younger than Andrew, but a lot older than you, Austin, oh and before I forget, LTR = Long Term Relationship.

I didn't wait until I found "the one," and some of the reason for that was doubt that I ever *would* find "the one." Surprise! :D Couple that with a terrible time questioning my sexuality in my late teens, and I rushed into something that turned out miserable. I had a small few sexual relationships after that and before I married my guy.

My feelings on the matter of waiting are mixed. I had some very pleasant experiences, and some truly lousy ones. But I will say that once you find your ideal partner, nothing else even comes close!

Sexual exploration can be so exciting! But it isn't everything. It isn't all that. What matters is taking care of yourself, meeting your needs responsibly, and adhering to your own value system. If you DO decide to have sex, be responsible and always use protection, always.

If you want to wait until you have a commitment made with your someone special, then by all means wait! Sex with your lifelong partner is on an entirely different level from sex within more casual relationships.

I'm gonna take a plunge here Austin and say wait. Wait until you have your own legs to stand on, your own adult life, and a sense of perspective about who you are and what your journey is.

[u-dog]

to observe what a miracle this community is? In our sex-aphobic culture a young gay man has the freedom (from shame and embarrassment and the stupid notion that he should already know everything) to ask one of the central questions of life and get logical, reasoned, SEASONED, answers from people who have walked the path before him -- answers that share a wealth of experience but don't presume to tell him what he SHOULD do. What a rare thing this is. How few straight young people have a safe place to ask such questions much less gay ones.

I hope I haven't spoiled the magic... but I had to tell you guys how beautiful you all are!:love:

[andrewlittle]

As a young person, unlike you Austin, I had little in the way of self-respect, which is why so many of my decisions where so self-destructive. Self-respect, integral to all the other advice you've received, is your best sense in deciding when and what is appropriate for you.

Sexuality, as has been stated, is part and parcel of who you are, and who and what God has created you to be. You possess a remarkable intellect and sensitivity, as well as creative and social maturity, which, I think, you respect and hold in high regard. Hold your physical being in equally high regard, as yet another aspect of that with which God has gifted you, and you will make choices that are appropriate for you.

You may make mistakes in your sexual choices, as in any other walk of life, but self-forgiveness goes hand-in-hand with self-respect. It cannot be stated strongly enough that common sense protection, in the form of condoms or abstinance or whatever, may afford you the time and opportunity to forgive yourself for those things that you later deem to be mistakes. May all your choices be healthy ones.

While I envy you somewhat as you face a life armed with the innate gifts and sense of self you possess, I also would not trade places with you for any reason. As many mistakes as I have made, I am who I am because of all my life's experiences - and I eventually began to like that person enough to want him to stick around and flourish.

I just hope that you, each and every step of the way, can look in the mirror and like what you see. Then, as with all other decisions, just keep the holiness of that image in mind as you make your choices about relationships.

Yours truly, great Uncle Andy. (Capital "G" omitted intentionally, by the way)

[scott snedeker]

You may make mistakes in your sexual choices, as in any other walk of life, but self-forgiveness goes hand-in-hand with self-respect. It cannot be stated strongly enough that common sense protection, in the form of condoms or abstinance or whatever, may afford you the time and opportunity to forgive yourself for those things that you later deem to be mistakes. May all your choices be healthy ones.

.

Yours truly, great Uncle Andy. (Capital "G" omitted intentionally, by the way)


Andy, I love ya!

[BronzDragon]

Forewarning: I am looking for advice, logical reasoning, you know, the stuff adult folks can do better than teenagers. Just want to know what to wait for.

» Thom says: ☛ Um, you have heard some of the logical reasoning that comes from some adults? I think kindergarteners have more common sense that some adults fifty or older.

Ok so I know about abstinence before marriage, right? But since, at the moment, we can't get married, what do we wait for? Gay marriage isn't exactly around the corner... so... Now I'm not saying I plan on going out on my 18th b-day and getting laid, but I want to know what I am saving myself for... you know? Its no fun to wait for something you can never have. :confused: :confused: :confused:

» Thom says: ☛ My first question is, why are you letting the loyal oppression, I mean, opposition, define marriage for you. The Truth is, they can make the laws read that your marriage would not be legal. As a minister, I can still perform the ceremony, my signature just will not change the legal status of the licence. I say, the only real difference between before and after marriage is the ceremony itself. I expect you can find at least one minister in your neighborhood who is willing to perform a nonlegal wedding. You might have to broaden your choices to include alternate cultures of faith. Do you know how many pagans are legally ordained because their friends couldn’t find a minister to perform the rite without insisting on a change in faith? Then again, there are a few Metropolitan Community and United Church of Christs out there.

Begin here, if you will. What, by your own standards, would constitute a marriage? What land marks would you look for? A willingness to witness the glories and follies of your partner with a “no but” kind of love? To share food and drink? Even if there is only enough for one of you? Do you think of your partner before you conclude every major, and most minor decisions, or wait until after and start rewriting your plans?

[dsdrane]

Hi, Austin.

Personally, I think abstinence before "marriage" (in all the various forms it takes) can surely be a good idea for some, but, ultimately, I think it's of questionable virtue and, potentially, even a big mistake.

Without a doubt, if one doesn't want to get pregnant (assuming one has the ability) and/or doesn't want the risk of being exposed to various STDs, abstinence is absolutely the way to go.

However, if you have a decent head on your shoulders, know the facts, act responsibly and with maturity, I don't see any reason why you should have to make some a priori decision to abstain. Except for the aforementioned, what exactly would be the point? To prove an ability to deny oneself? I guess, but again I would ask why and to what end?

I didn't have my first sexual experience until I was 22. It was the day before college graduation, and this thing that I had fretted about and stressed over for years unfolded in the most wonderful, unanticipated, natural, completely stress-free way possible with someone I loved and trusted (but was not in love with). I couldn't have scripted it better. That said, if a similar situation had presented itself, say, when I was closer to your age, that would have been fine, too. In fact, for me, it very possibly could have been downright helpful.

Abstinence can also be problematic in terms of sexual compatibility. Every couple is different, but, to one degree or another, sex (again, in all the various forms it takes) is a part of couplehood. What happens when you develop a relationship, rent the U-Haul, pick out a china pattern, and move in only to discover an utter and complete lack of sexual compatibility. Whoops!

That's what I call a C.A.B. -- a Completely Avoidable Bummer.

Anyway, unless you have a burning desire to have a manifesto (and more power to you if you do), I would go out on a limb and proffer a third way: the decision not to decide. Let your faith and your common sense guide you...and be happy.

:cool: ,

David

[Jennifer5]

I actually would say personally... what David just posted makes the most sense to me. Of course, this is just how things sound to me right now.. in a couple years I may feel differently on this issue. Listen to what the people you trust have to say, follow your heart and be safe.

Remember you're smart boy... you will know what's best... we all love you:love:

[u-dog]

I also, you may be surprised to hear, thought David's reflections were helpful. ( I was getting all ready to disagree with him, then discovered that I didn't) There is a continuum that runs from "f*** everything that moves and is warmer than room temperature on the one hand to "only after marriage" on the other. You wouldn't necessarily have to be sitting squarely on the endpoint of that spectrum to be true to your values, Austin, and knowing something about yourself and your partner sexually before beginning a lifelong relationship is probably wise. Having said that, however, doesn't negate what I said earlier about the true meaning of sex being rooted in commitment and covenant.

[Joe Allen]

During Bible times, all a man and an not-married woman had to do to be officially/legally married in the sight of the God of the Jews/Israelites/Hebrews was to have one act of sexual intercourse.

There are no wedding ceremonies provided over by a Levite Priest for the Jews nor by a pastor for the Christians in the New Testament.

At the wedding banquet at Cana where Jesus turned the water into wine, the couple was not yet married because they had not gone to bed yet and had sex.

The Church existed for several centuries before there was even a church wedding. And that was not until after the leaders of the Roman Empire declared Christianity to be the official religion.

[Sharone]

Well, I can only speak from my understanding and experience. My partner and I were together for a while before we decided that we were going to be together for the rest of our lives, that we were THE ONE for each other, and had a ceremony between us and God. I had always believed in waiting until I got married. Since the state doesn't recognize gay marriage, we had our own ceremony and that was that. We did have a church wedding 4 years ago that meant a lot to both of us, but it was more of a renewal of vows than a wedding. Smile.
The bottom line is to not compromise what you believe because the state says you can't legally marry. Decide what you will accept as marriage to you. If it's having a church ceremony in a gay affirming church, then wait for that. If it's meeting someone and dating for a certain amount of time until you know you're both committed, then wait for that. Don't just decide it's hopeless to wait for legal marriage. God knows your heart. God also knows what's going on with gay marriage right now. I feel His grace is wide enough to cover us.
Peace to you. Hang in there.
Sharone

[Daniel]

Way to go David! While I was waxing philosophical/psychological you hit it out of the park. Your thoughts on the matter are sane and sensible.

I was reflecting on why I wrote what I wrote, and see the light in your message: my own first sexual experiences weren't as wonderful, stress-free and natural as your own- and I include my first 4.5 year relationship in that statement. And like many gay men, I don't think I'm alone in that experience. When someone is as 'underwater' as I was about life and love- having little sense of Self- all kinds of 'mistakes' can be made- which is why I put the whole matter in the context of a learning curve.

The greater sense of Self one has, the better. That is why it is so important that young GLBTQ persons understand -as in experience in their bodies- that God loves them- and that love-making with another person- in this case someone of the same sex- is an expression of that love. It is the one way in which Love becomes Real.

[tpdncr4christ]

Thank you all so much! I love your answers and I am thankful for your wisdom... yeah I said it, wisdom. Its just, in health class last semseter, I wanted to ask that question so badly but my teacher was very akward when it comes to sex in general, let along gay sex:eek:. I'm glad to know you all are there when I need you. It means a bunches!

Again, thank you.

Austin

PS. I've decided not to decide. It seems fitting enough.

[Joe Allen]

As a person who has always been homosexual (but closeted until after I was 41 years old), if after I decided to leave the closet behind decided and I had waited to have sex until after I actually fell in love with another gay man, I would not have been able to say "I am a gay widower" today.

My closeted relationship with a bisexual, Bill, in Tulsa, Oklahoma was used by the Lord to get me out of the closet. And, the Lord used two men in an Assemby of God, which I was attending in March 1984, to give prophecies about making an important decision which applied to my needing to decide to move to California when Bill and his family did. I did not remain in Ontario, CA where Bill had a job waiting for him. But, I ended up in East Hollywood and stayed with a Pastor I knew as a fellow grad student at ORU.

It was because I went to check out a gay cinema on Hollywood Blvd where I made friends with an openly gay guy and he invited me to his home. I won't go into a lot of detail here but you can check out my My Space Blog for the complete testimony. Roger and I did not have sexual contact after that week; but, because of him and his partner, Al, taking me out to dinner and a club on Saturday night, that got me to where I would meet Ed officially 2 weeks later.

I did not fall in love with Ed when I went home with him on April 14 and had not yet been in love with him when I moved in with him 10 days later. I just felt at home with him. About a week or so after we were together and I was talking to him in the kitchen while he was fixing something to eat, I thought to myself, "I want to spend the rest of my life with this man." Actually, I was still with him when Ed went to be with the Lord on March 2, 1991.

See Joe Allen's MySpace Profile (http://www.myspace.com/oklahomacountryboy) with link to my blog.

[u-dog]

Joe: Thnks for sharing that beautiful story!

Austin: Thank YOU for asking the question!! One of the REALLY frustrating things about being an Old Fart is that you are finally old enough to have figured some stuff out and then no one young asks you anything . And if you tell them anyway they don't believe you! :lol:

Just one more example of God's sick sense of humor! Anyway... You and all the other "Young farts" are a real blessing to this group!

[Joe Allen]

Joe: Thnks for sharing that beautiful story!

Austin: Thank YOU for asking the question!! One of the REALLY frustrating things about being an Old Fart is that you are finally old enough to have figured some stuff out and then no one young asks you anything . And if you tell them anyway they don't believe you! :lol:

Just one more example of God's sick sense of humor! Anyway... You and all the other "Young farts" are a real blessing to this group!

You are welcome. I am old and I do fart because I eat too many Tex-Mex foods with beans in them, along with other food with fiber in them.

Farting gets old when it "odorizes" your skin between the legs. And, then you have to use odor eater type powder down there. ;)

God does work in mysterious ways. I have been told that I need to publish my life story so that younger folks could read it.

Oh, when I was about 12 years old in the Junior Boys Sunday School Class at the Assembly of God in Claremore, Okla., one of the lessons was on the friendship that David had with Jonathan. I had prayed to God that I would have the kind of friend that Jonathan was to David.

Well, after I became an adult, I found out that David was probably at least 10 years younger than Jonathan.

Well, Ed was 12 1/2 years older than me and when he met me, I had only been out of the closet a month. That was 1984 and he had been out since 1967. Ed also looked after me because he did no want to see me get hurt like he was when he left the closet. But, Ed learned the hard way about being gay. I had read a whole lot about it before I left the closet.

[cousin.of.zuzu]

I agree! This is a very beautiful resourceful discussion. :) You all are amazing. Good posts all.


to observe what a miracle this community is? In our sex-aphobic culture a young gay man has the freedom (from shame and embarrassment and the stupid notion that he should already know everything) to ask one of the central questions of life and get logical, reasoned, SEASONED, answers from people who have walked the path before him -- answers that share a wealth of experience but don't presume to tell him what he SHOULD do. What a rare thing this is. How few straight young people have a safe place to ask such questions much less gay ones.

I hope I haven't spoiled the magic... but I had to tell you guys how beautiful you all are!:love: