Who's entitled to be called gay?

[Joe Allen]

I don't mean to be contentious, fellows; but, I have a problem with a heterosexually married homosexual or bisexual man calling himself "gay."

But, I could have ended up that way, too. Although I did not leave the closet until 4 months after my 41st birthday, I stopped dating women a few months after I was 35.

I have read quite a few articles in professional journals and several case study books all written by licensed and certified mental health professionals in the past 15 years or so and the majority of those dealing with sexual orientation issues did not call a closeted man "gay."

People talk about Ted Haggard being gay; but, he is unhappy with his sexual orientation and publicly denies it. His own spoken words to reporters has proven that he is definitely NOT exclusively heterosexual.

I do have a friend who is a few years older than me who is married to a woman. Mac does not call himself gay; but, according to what he tells me he is neither a heterosexual nor a bisexual. He stopped sleeping in the same room with his wife years ago. As to whether she knows anything or not, he has not said. His wife had children before he married her and they are married with children now. I don't judge Mac at all and when he visits me, he is just his normal self. He is like me in that sometimes he wakes up early in the morning. He sort of makes an opportunity because of that and sometimes goes out for coffee. And, about once a month while he is out, he comes to see me. We do talk about many of the things we have in common otherwise and that includes talking about the Lord.

[andrewlittle]

Your friend doesn't call himself gay, which is his prerogative. The issue seems to me, not what other people call someone, but how do people self-identify.

It seems legalistic to contend with someone who identifies themselves as gay.

Perhaps they are doing it because of the elevated social position it provides them; maybe because it comes with less baggage and stigmatization than self-identifying as straight; possibly because of the myriad of social privileges being gay bestows on them; perhaps because it means that their employment is secure and trouble-free. Hmmm.

Maybe, Joe, you can identify the benefits that would cause someone to misidentify themselves as gay - to claim the title that you seem to think is best saved only for a certain kind of person.

Perhaps, we should just let people identify as they will, and lose any sense we have of a hierarchy of legitimacy for gayness. After all, aren't all GLBT folks already suffering from the hierarchy of legitimacy to which dominant culture adhers. Let's not institute another absolute standard by which people can be rejected and ostracized.

Also, Joe, if I could be so bold, might I suggest you read the first post of a thread before you start a bit of a contentious discussion. Rick came looking for support, for God's sake, not someone to pile shit deeper by getting pissy about how he or someone else self-identifies.

[u-dog]

Frankly Joe, Your reaction is what I expected to recieve from ALL gay and lesbian people when I decided to begin coming out. I had so convinced myself that I was a coward and that my lack of authenticity was so complete that the whole gay community would scorn me and my self-disclosure.

Guess what? You're the first. The gay community here, on other forums, at the gay affirming church where my wife and I attend, among gay and straight friends and family. My self-disclosure and self-identification as gay and my life story have all been treated with respect, compassion, openess, and interest by GLBT people. Even our decision to stay together and explore what our somewhat unorthodox relationship can continue to offer us has been supported and encouraged by the GLBT people we know. Some days our gay marriage therapist seems more committed to the success of our marriage than we are (thats a joke -- but at least AS committed).

So I wish you all the best as you deal with "your problem", Joe. but it is YOUR problem, not mine. And it is CERTAINLY not Rick's problem. As a young man I made decisions that I would NOT recommend to others. As a result of those decisions I find myself married to a woman whom I continue to love profoundly and in all probability will stay married to her as we enter grandparenthood. That reality notwithstanding, however, I am gay. I have always been gay. I will always be gay and I am not ashamed of that fact.

Rick: You are who you are. Your marriage is what it is. I for one am eager to hear your story and to learn about the unfolding of your self-understanding. I can tell you from experience that you and your story will be recieved and honored in this place. You have many decisions to make ahead of you and not all of them will be easy. I wish you the best.

[keltic63]

Joe,

I find your post to be really offensive. It's judgmental.

Gay is a self-identifying term; of course it's not going to be in the professional journals you've read. I'd question any study that used the term "gay" in place of "homosexual orientation."

Just because Ted Haggard makes proclamations about his orientation, does not mean that it is what he claims. Orientation is what it is, whether you affirm or deny it.

It's already been pointed out that instead of offering words of support for Rick, you've kicked him when he's down. That is NOT what we are about here at soulforce.

And I'll take Andrew's post 1 step further. If I am reading between the lines correctly, and I believe the implication is there, you are helping your friend Mac to be an adulterer. It doesn't matter that she doesn't know about his orientation, that they don't sleep in the same room; it is all deception. If this is indeed what you are saying in your post, you need to stop casting stones.

[andrewlittle]

I copied this discussion from another thread, so that the original poster would not be subjected to further criticism or pain as a result. The story so far:

[merged posts from former thread to this one.....-moderator]


Please, let's continue as we see fit.

[andrewlittle]

These may be a little bit rambling.

I find it interesting that Ted Haggard was brought up in the same context as "heterosexually married homosexual or bisexual" men, especially since the objection is to those who self-identify as "gay". I don't think there's any doubt that Haggard does not identify that way, although the contention that "his own spoken words to reporters has proven that he is definitely exclusively heterosexual" is far-fetched. There is such a thing as denial. And there is such a thing as prurient. Neither is healthy and despite what he says, his behavior decries any claim to "exclusively heterosexual".

But, my main problem is the arrogance and insensitivity it takes to liken people who claim the identity of gay, despite being married to people of the opposite gender, with someone who demonizes GLBT people while surrepticiously purchasing same-gender sexual encounters because of his "dark side".

I'd like to see that one unpacked.

Also, if I understand your argument, you seem to believe that someone is not entitled to use the identity of "gay" if they live a life that does not "look" like some pre-determined, pre-approved gay lifestyle (I am using that word intentionally). Forget what your books say, Joe, but do you say that closeted people are not gay? Do you contend that to be gay one has to live a certain way?

If so, are you not promoting the argument that being gay is a lifestyle - a voluntary choice to live a certain way?

Your post smacks of some kind of elitism - some kind of acid test of true "gayness" for which only certain people qualify. How is that different than an acid test for a true Christian - one which excludes gay people from belonging?

[keltic63]

Your post smacks of some kind of elitism - some kind of acid test of true "gayness" for which only certain people qualify. How is that different than an acid test for a true Christian - one which excludes gay people from belonging?


No True Scotsman (http://www.answers.com/topic/no-true-scotsman)

[belladonnacordial]

Hi Joe!

Labels other than the ones that we accept for ourselves are really useless if you think about it. Even our own labels only work so far as a kind of short-hand to describe our general situations to one another. Have you ever met two people whose shared identification describes the same set of preferences, life experiences, and circumstances? I never have.

Sure there is a lot of confusion and denial out there. There is also a lot of learning and self-discovery going on in the course of any lifetime too. Why should anyone be punished however they identify, self-identify, or mis-identify?

Look around. There is always going to be someone more gay, or more straight, or more bisexual. Does that discount anyone else's self-identification? I think not. The moment it becomes a contest we all lose.

Wishing you love, peace, equality and that one day when none of this will matter in the least to anyone but ourselves, Donna

Andrew,

Good call restarting this thread over here.

[scott snedeker]

Sexual identity was a mortal struggle for me in my youth. So when I decided to live true to my nature, I was "ultra-gay" wearing a gay flag pin on my lapel to work at the hospital and telling everyone when the opportunity arrived (opportunities I often created).

I need to define myself clearly. And anyone who didn't do the same was seen as a coward in my eyes. It was a step that I probably do over again given my nature and the societal pressures of the time.

Everyone is on a journey. We see ourselves differently throughout the different ages of our lives. We will never finsh changing unless we die inside.

Attraction to men can be labelled many things. In Spain, an older man (30's and above) with a family is still considered straight if he is strictly a top when he has sex with other, usually younger, males. A gift to the younger fellow is then customary after. (Boy! did I love Spain!:) :) :) ) Wish I were young again! The younger bottom is cherished : "He's a NICE boy!" An older bottom, however, was not accepted in the same fashion and much of the time was an outcast:'(

Two of my regular playmates are married to women. One is married as a favor for her greencard. The other is just as wild as the woman he married. Neither consider themselves gay. Not a problem for me.....just feeds my fantasy of "corrupting" a straight man:D :D (believe me these fellas needed no help!)

In medicine the phrase "men who have sex with men" is replacing "gay" and "homosexual", It's a bit clumsy though and probably won't catch on.

I get more out of focussig on the person than the label.

[Daniel]

Everything goes in reverse.

The entitlement that is presupposed to exist on the part of straight white males, exists in its own fashion within the gay community which is expressed in thinking that posits that only those who are certifiably gay are the ones who should be first in line for whatever is being doled out at the moment. If one doesn't pass muster with the cognescenti, one cannot enter the kingdom of the fabulous.

This is what gatekeepers do.

But the truth is that those who not feel they are able to be themselves- whatever their place on the continuum of sexual expression- are in need of compassion. They are suffering, just as surely as Christ suffered in the Garden.

Everyone is seeking happiness and love. Everyone. Even those who do destructive things are seeking love and happiness. Their just having a harder time.

[Joe Allen]

Joe,

I find your post to be really offensive. It's judgmental.

Gay is a self-identifying term; of course it's not going to be in the professional journals you've read. I'd question any study that used the term "gay" in place of "homosexual orientation."

Just because Ted Haggard makes proclamations about his orientation, does not mean that it is what he claims. Orientation is what it is, whether you affirm or deny it.

It's already been pointed out that instead of offering words of support for Rick, you've kicked him when he's down. That is NOT what we are about here at soulforce.

And I'll take Andrew's post 1 step further. If I am reading between the lines correctly, and I believe the implication is there, you are helping your friend Mac to be an adulterer. It doesn't matter that she doesn't know about his orientation, that they don't sleep in the same room; it is all deception. If this is indeed what you are saying in your post, you need to stop casting stones.

GAY has become a self-identifying term in the past 10 years or so and the religious right has promoted it.

Literally and scripturally speaking, only married men who have sex with women who are not their wives are committing adultery. There is nothing in the Bible about Homosexual or even bisexual adultery. If bisexual adultery were in the Old Testament, the relationship that David and Jonathan had with each other would be bisexual adultery since both of the men had wives when they had sex with each other.

In fact, Jonathan's father used euphemisms accusing Jonathan of having a sexual relationship with David one time when David did not show up with Jonathan for dinner with Saul one evening. David was hiding out from Saul since Saul wanted to kill him.

You might consider Mac to be having adultery and you might think I am an enabler, too; but, I don't. He has not even had sex with his wife in several years and they don't even sleep in the same bedroom either. His marriage to a woman did not make him a heterosexual nor a bisexual.

[Joe Allen]

Everything goes in reverse.

The entitlement that is presupposed to exist on the part of straight white males, exists in its own fashion within the gay community which is expressed in thinking that posits that only those who are certifiably gay are the ones who should be first in line for whatever is being doled out at the moment. If one doesn't pass muster with the cognescenti, one cannot enter the kingdom of the fabulous.

This is what gatekeepers do.

But the truth is that those who not feel they are able to be themselves- whatever their place on the continuum of sexual expression- are in need of compassion. They are suffering, just as surely as Christ suffered in the Garden.

Everyone is seeking happiness and love. Everyone. Even those who do destructive things are seeking love and happiness. Their just having a harder time.

What I do with Mac when he comes to my home is out of my unconditional love for him as human being and a brother in the Lord, too. Sex is a special gift from our Creator and was meant to be shared in the right situation.

When I was active in the Family of Faith MCC years ago, we had an open discussion during a Bible study time, not during a worship service, about Christians and sex. When I talked about sexual activity done with the right person being a divinely spiritual experience, both the pastor and co-pastor and others looked at me as though they had experienced the same thing with their partners.

While I don't approve of using the bed in the bedroom as an evangelical tool, I have been in situations a few times where the Lord used me in the bedroom to minister to other gay men. I did not plan on it being that way; but, they showed interest in me first and asked me if they could go home with me from the club. Just like I am not in the closet about my sexual orientation, I am not in the closet about my relationship with Jesus either.

It is something else when you tell a person, who is having a problem with guilt about his sexual orientation and feeling rejection from his family and his church, "The Lord loves you unconditionally just as you are and you should not worrry about what others say about you." And, the person cries with tears of joy and hugs you because of what the Holy Spirit told you to tell him.

Some of those men never went to bed with me again; but, they introduced themselves to me when they said they wanted to go home with me and they remained my friends until I moved back to Tulsa in Jan. 92.

[suzer1013]

Thank God we have the right to even be able to argue over such "entitlements." As I follow the story of the anti-GLBT legislation in Nigeria, I can't help but wonder what our Nigerian GLBT brothers and sisters would be thinking of our arguments. Self-identifying as gay is literally deadly to them.

I don't mention this to be preachy or moralizing, so I hope it doesn't come across that way. I just wish we could all step back for a moment and take a deep breath. I understand the frustrations everyone has expressed above, but let's not forget the big picture.

Maybe things would be better phrased with the old therapy standbys of "when I hear ____________, I feel _____________" -- it might further our understanding of each other, without feelings getting hurt. Might be worth a try, 'cause I really to understand and hear where each of you are coming from.

Love and peace to y'all....

Susan :) :love: :pray:

[belladonnacordial]

Hi Suzer!

I haven't really met you yet! I'm Donna.

Thank you for putting this argument in perspective for us.

Thank God we have the right to even be able to argue over such "entitlements."

Amen! You are right, too, that we should all take care to watch out for each other's feelings. Hopefully we can all disagree about anything but show love for one another too.

Much peace and love to you,
Donna

[BruceChris]

There is a group of men who call themselves GAMMA, or Gay And Married Men's Association. I think that pretty much covers things.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Joe Allen]

I copied this discussion from another thread, so that the original poster would not be subjected to further criticism or pain as a result. The story so far:

[merged posts from former thread to this one.....-moderator]


Please, let's continue as we see fit.

I missed this posting. I thought the title of the subject thread looked odd. I didn't remember writing it.

Thanks.

[Joe Allen]

There is a group of men who call themselves GAMMA, or Gay And Married Men's Association. I think that pretty much covers things.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

Yes, and there are guys who are exclusively homosexual in their sexual orientation who prefer to be called "F a g g o t," too. They don't like to be called anything else and they prefer to call all homosexuals by the same name.

[BruceChris]

And you sound like you just want to have a confrontation. Can you tell me just what it is that really upsets you?

O.K., from now on, I am a gay pink elephant. (And you can't prove that I'm not)

Peace and Love, Gay Pink Elephant

(If andrew ever reads this, he will NEVER let me live it down.)

[andrewlittle]

Gay Pink Elephant said:
O.K., from now on, I am a gay pink elephant. (And you can't prove that I'm not)

Peace and Love, Gay Pink Elephant

(If andrew ever reads this, he will NEVER let me live it down.)

Bruce, you silly, silly man you. If I had any shame at all, I'd forget I ever saw this. But ...

[Joe Allen]

And you sound like you just want to have a confrontation. Can you tell me just what it is that really upsets you?

O.K., from now on, I am a gay pink elephant. (And you can't prove that I'm not)

Peace and Love, Gay Pink Elephant

(If andrew ever reads this, he will NEVER let me live it down.)

Gay Pink Elephant said:


Bruce, you silly, silly man you. If I had any shame at all, I'd forget I ever saw this. But ...

Oh, I am not really angry as such at anyone in real life; but, it does not help us whose sexual orientation is exclusively homosexual and are completely out of the closet to move ahead for equal rights for gays when closeted homosexuals heterosexually married and heterosexually married bisexuals claim to be gay, too.

Men who are in denial of there sexual orientation and use women as a beard are not "gay" because they are not happy with their God-given sexual orientation.

I did not call myself gay when I was in the closet and according to many certified and licensed mental health professionals, I did the right thing by not claiming to be gay before I left the closet. Oh, I had gay and bisexual friends who knew what my sexual orientation was; but, none of them knew my family and did not go to the same church I did. Oh, one bisexual friend, Bill, knew my parents and they just thought I was just his good friend and they met his wife and kids, too.

[Zerbie]

Ya know, the comment about heterosexually-married bisexual people kinda rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it's not what you meant but what I heard was that I'm "not helping the cause." What I get out of your words is you think I don't belong in this community. :mad:

Why did you join this forum, Joe?

[Joe Allen]

Ya know, the comment about heterosexually-married bisexual people kinda rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it's not what you meant but what I heard was that I'm "not helping the cause." What I get out of your words is you think I don't belong in this community. :mad:

Why did you join this forum, Joe?

This individual forum, Faith and Nonviolence, or Soulforce Community Forums, Zerbie?

I found out about the "Soulforce Community Forums" because of Nate and I both being MySpace.com Friends. Both of us went to Oral Roberts University.

But, I have know about Mel White's Ministry since 1998 and I first saw him in the latter 1980s when we both attended the same MCC in N. Hollywood.

Oh, I don't have a problem with heterosexually married bisexuals who admit they are bisexuals and self-identify as bisexual. While they can be happy about their sexual orientation, IMO, it would be better for us who are exclusively homosexual if they did not call themselves "gay."

Oh, I have no problem with a guy who is a bisexual and in a committed relationship with a person of his own gender and he self-identifies as "gay." And that is because it is a same-gender relationship, the same kind of relationship a committed gay couple has.

In regard to my local friend, Mac, he has never identified himself as bisexual or gay in my presence.

[belladonnacordial]

it does not help us whose sexual orientation is exclusively homosexual and are completely out of the closet to move ahead for equal rights for gays when closeted homosexuals heterosexually married and heterosexually married bisexuals claim to be gay, too.


Are you sure? I would think the more people who can identify with 'your' cause the better.

At any rate I don't see how they harm you just by existing and self-identifying to the best of their abilities.

Don't forget that heterosexuals can use the same argument that 'marriage' is a term to describe a heterosexual union. It doesn't 'help' them that gay men are trying to hijack their terms.

The fact is I think it does help them in the way it helps all of society to work toward tolerance, inclusion, and equality. There is strength in numbers. Those things that divide a society internally make us all easier prey to the war and hate-mongers, and the political, corporate, and religious predators.

Just food for thought, :)
Donna

[belladonnacordial]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerbie
Ya know, the comment about heterosexually-married bisexual people kinda rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it's not what you meant but what I heard was that I'm "not helping the cause." What I get out of your words is you think I don't belong in this community.

Why did you join this forum, Joe?

This individual forum, Faith and Nonviolence, or Soulforce Community Forums, Zerbie?


Hold up, Joe, are you implying that Zerbie isn't welcome in any of the above? No wonder she is feeling a bit rubbed the wrong way.

Just for the record, Zerbie, I'm honored to have you anywhere you wish to be. I'm also honored to be part of any community of which you are a part. I feel the same way about every person here, male or female, across the orientation spectrum, whether or not we can agree that grass is often green. Let's not take a bad day out on each other.

Peace and love,
Donna

[Joe Allen]

Are you sure? I would think the more people who can identify with 'your' cause the better.

At any rate I don't see how they harm you just by existing and self-identifying to the best of their abilities.

Don't forget that heterosexuals can use the same argument that 'marriage' is a term to describe a heterosexual union. It doesn't 'help' them that gay men are trying to hijack their terms.

The fact is I think it does help them in the way it helps all of society to work toward tolerance, inclusion, and equality. There is strength in numbers. Those things that divide a society internally make us all easier prey to the war and hate-mongers, and the political, corporate, and religious predators.

Just food for thought, :)
Donna

I am assuming that "Donna" is your legal name and "bella donna" means "fair lady"; but, a "belladonna cordial" would be an alcoholic liqueur mixed with a poisonous drug. I don't know if you self-identify as "Christian" or not but I do find it odd that some folks choose internet IDs that have no connection with their relationship with Christ Jesus.

A Soulforce Moderator decided to use his or her power to create a new subject forum and make it look like I started a thread using the words "Who's entitled to be called gay?" That certainly looked like someone was a computer hacker pretending to be me.

Some of you folks who barely know me have been accusing me of lots of stupid things and some act like they are know-it-alls, too.

I do not have a problem with a person who is exclusively homosexual or bisexual and is married to a member of the opposite sex and the person is not claiming to be gay. But, I am constantly encountering heterosexually married men on the internet who are gay curious or closet homosexuals with nothing but sex on their minds; and they do some kind of Yahoo Search to find older openly gay men through their Profile IDs. And, they themselves have nothing to identify themselves in their Yahoo ID Profiles.

All heterosexual marriages with marriage licenses filed are "civil unions" in the United States of America because the license has to be picked up from a civil court clerk and/or a civil marriage bureau. The person who signs the license must have government authority to do so. The US Government literally does not recognize a couple as married because their wedding ceremony was in a church and a preacher officiated at it. Churches and church denominations in and of themselves have no authority to issue marriage licenses. Churches can only give a minister authority to officiate at a marriage ritual in their churches and they have to file proof of that authority with the civil government.

Oh, people talk about a person breaking marriage vows when they cheat on a spouse. But, the government does not require the use of vows when a couple gets married. In all states where heterosexual marriages allowed, if a man and a woman can get a person authorized to sign the marriage license form to put his or her name on it. His signing it makes them married, especially after the document has been filed with a civil bureau.

There are no wedding rituals in the Bible at all where a priest or a preacher presides over the ceremony.

My heterosexually-married friend, Mac, has never told me that he is a bisexual or a gay man.

[suzer1013]

Hi, Joe. Forgive me if I am making some assumptions below, but I am basing what I write on what I have seen you offer here.

I want to express my concern about the tone of your posts here. It seems you have alot to offer us, but you are coming across (at least to me) as angry and defensive and seem to be attacking individuals here. From what you've written, it seems you've been hurt by certain situations in your past with heterosexual men who may be "experimenting". I can understand your frustration with that situation, but no one here has personally hurt you as far as I know.

Many of us here try (and yes, sometimes fail) to put the principles of nonviolence to work in our lives, and the Soulforce boards are a place we wish to welcome people -- all people, whether gay, straight, bi, queer, trans, etc., etc. etc. All are welcome, in whatever way they choose to self-identify.

I consider the people here my friends, my family, in a way. I don't like to see anyone disrespecting other people. It sounds like perhaps you've experienced that in the past and so are coming on full force here. Maybe we can all take a deep breath and try again? I hope that you, too, can come to see these boards as a friendly place to be and find the comraderie many of us share.

Blessings,

Susan

[belladonnacordial]

I am assuming that "Donna" is your legal name and "bella donna" means "fair lady"; but, a "belladonna cordial" would be an alcoholic liqueur mixed with a poisonous drug. I don't know if you self-identify as "Christian" or not but I do find it odd that some folks choose internet IDs that have no connection with their relationship with Christ Jesus.


Clearly, if you are taking issue with my name, you must feel like I'm attacking you.

I'm curious though, why do you feel other people should pick internet IDs according to their relationship with Jesus Christ? You seem to have a lot of rules for other people to follow. The more rules you have for us, the more we are likely to disappoint you.

Since you seem curious, 'cordial' can be a candy too, and my nick could be read as 'beautiful lady candy.' I chose it years ago partly because it is memorable, partly because it has personal meaning for me that has nothing to do with drugs or alcohol, and partly for the ambiguity and implication that nothing is as it appears. In that respect it reflects the internet and life in general and acts as a constant reminder to me that I need to strive to glimpse at the truth beyond appearances.

I am not a Christian. I do hold many Christian beliefs. I find personal truths in various religious doctrines, including the truth that none of us can know anything. If I come across as a 'know-it-all,' I apologize.

Some of you folks who barely know me have been accusing me of lots of stupid things and some act like they are know-it-alls, too.


If you feel I have accused you of anything 'stupid,' I apologize. If you feel anyone has misunderstood what you are saying, feel free to correct us. For having opinions and expressing them, I'm not going to apologize. You are stuck with that. :) Feel free to debate me, though.

I do not have a problem with a person who is exclusively homosexual or bisexual and is married to a member of the opposite sex and the person is not claiming to be gay. But, I am constantly encountering heterosexually married men on the internet who are gay curious or closet homosexuals with nothing but sex on their minds; and they do some kind of Yahoo Search to find older openly gay men through their Profile IDs. And, they themselves have nothing to identify themselves in their Yahoo ID Profiles.

I'm sorry you have encountered this problem. It really is no excuse to take out your frustration with that behaviour on the people here, who are obviously not part of your problem. I very much doubt, for example, that the person bearing his troubles in "Hello my name is.." was trying to deceive or sexually harrass anyone.

A Soulforce Moderator decided to use his or her power to create a new subject forum and make it look like I started a thread using the words "Who's entitled to be called gay?" That certainly looked like someone was a computer hacker pretending to be me.


Andrew first moved the thread unofficially so that we could discuss the post you made in a 'Hello my name is...' thread. He didn't think that subject was an appropriate one to inflict upon someone saying hi and asking for understanding. I moved my first post from that thread to this one myself. I doubt anyone thinks that you named or started this thread. If they did and are reading this, they will know what happened now.

It is not my goal to personally attack you or anyone else here. Some including myself disagree with some of your opinions. I don't deny your right to hold any opinion you want to hold. Nor do I disrespect you for disagreeing with me on any subject. I don't even care how you choose to express your disagreements with me. I am the duck's back. It just rolls right off. I do suggest you try not to lash out at other people in general. It is counter-productive to having the truth in your opinions and arguments considered by others.

As far as I'm concerned how you live your personal life and the nature of your relationships is strictly up to you and your beliefs, and is none of my business. I wouldn't judge you for making choices that would not be right for me, nor is my respect for you dependent on your moral code. If you were my friend, and I hope you are or will be, I'd point out that the fact that you feel the need to defend these choices so strongly may indicate that those choices weigh upon your conscience. It might be best to accept that fact, and if you love your friend, forgive yourself the circumstances. In my opinion, love is the best guide for how to live.

Peace and light to you, Donna

[andrewlittle]

A Soulforce Moderator decided to use his or her power to create a new subject forum and make it look like I started a thread using the words "Who's entitled to be called gay?" That certainly looked like someone was a computer hacker pretending to be me.

Okay, let's set the record straight, here. Or maybe just point to where it is already straight, but perceived crookedly.

You posted in reply to the following message in someone's introductory thread: (emphasis added to make point)
I am a new member and am in the need of support from those that feel can help me.
I am a Christian and just recently admitted to myself and a few others that I am gay. The conflict I am experiencing is not with my faith but with the fact that I have been married for 34 year and still am. My wife does not know, or she does and hasn't mentioned it. I have 3 grown children.
I'm searching for those that can relate, share their experiences, etc.
You responded with:
I don't mean to be contentious, fellows; but, I have a problem with a heterosexually married homosexual or bisexual man calling himself "gay."
You also wrote about Ted Haggard in this post - a post about a married man realizing he is gay. While it may not have been intentional, this man coming to grips with his sexuality and asking for help, was compared to one of the most nototious GLBT antagonists simply because he happened to share the same kind of marital status.

Joe, when people show up on these forums seeking support, we try to give them support. We save our attitudes, if we have them, for a more general conversation area, but surely not in the same thread in which someone came looking for help. Your post, there, was insensitive and unfortunately placed.

So, then, I - not a moderator, but I - copied your post and those responding to your posts to a new thread with the title that appears at the top. I picked the title, and still say it lines up well with what you voiced. I, however, put the first three posts into one long post under MY name, not yours.

It was then that the moderator, responding to my request to delete those posts from the original thread, moved yours and the others to the new thread. In doing so, since it created duplication, he removed my conglomeration to make it easier to follow.

Okay, you didn't name the thread, but the first post is yours - exactly as you typed it - word for word. Your words, Joe, not some computer hacker pretending to be you. No-one put words in your mouth, Joe. As for the title, maybe it would have been better as "I have a problem with some people calling themselves gay", but I see little difference there. If you do, by all means feel free.

Some of you folks who barely know me have been accusing me of lots of stupid things and some act like they are know-it-alls, too.

Most of us don't know you, Joe, just like you don't know us. Some people eaze in and get to know others, some storm in and declare themselves here. We're all different. But we do appreciate some common courtesy, as I am sure do you. But, Joe, with this quote above, I believe you are seeing yourself reflected in a mirror - you may be projecting.

If you go back and read your posts, Joe, - trying to read them through someone else's eyes - this is how you come across to many of us. We're not much different in that regard, possibly. Some of the rest of us don't like this approach any more than you. But, why is it okay for you, and not for us?

This site is relational, Joe, and we'd like to be in relationship with you. Some of what you say is downright touching, but some is insensitive and arrogant. We're no different, except when someone tells one of us we're being insensitive and arrogant, we try to listen, understand, do a little self-reflection and restate what we said in a more compassionate way. It's what we try to do to remain in relationship with each other, and what we like to have done for us.

That's what some of these posts are about, Joe - trying to enter into relationship with you, rather than just be preached at or preach to.

[tpdncr4christ]

Austin here... I hate to just butt in on the conversation, but I feel implied to...

I've written about three reply's. I think the moderators would have stepped in on all three. That doesn't happen very often Joe. In my opinion, you don't deserve to be called gay, at least not the gay I am.

Concerning the word "gay" I embody the word more than most people. I don't cross dress... but I do cross excesorize. I have this lovely little pin from disney land that is a rainbow of Mickey's head. I wear it all the time. I have multiple pink shirts, I style my own jeans. I'm even working on an embroidery pair, with vines and flowers. I have a coordinated wardrobe that spans one color of the rainbow everday. I shave my legs and my armpits. I even have a design for my own clothes line, including a T-shirt with a campfire on it (with rainbow flames) with the caption "Caution: May cause third degree burns." I love theatre, and talk in a tenor voice. I am truly magnificently fantabulously flamboyantly gay, and very much not afraid of it.

However, does that make me any more gay than my boyfriend? Unless he is laughing, or kissing me... you can hardly tell that he is gay at all. In fact, many people think he is dating his best friend, not me... :eek: Does that make him any less gay than me? No. If you are a boy, and you like boys, or a man who likes men, you are gay. If you are a man who is married to a woman, who likes men, you are gay. End of story. Identify yourself as you will, but that is my definition.

I, like you, have a problem. My problem is with guys who make these exclusive club houses, with their "no girls allowed" signs on them. Don't be exclusive, it's not cool. It's straight (rather than saying "it's gay").

:rainbow::rainbow::rainbow:

[andrewlittle]

It's straight (rather than saying "it's gay").

:rainbow::rainbow::rainbow:

I'm going to have to remember that - "Man, that's straight"
:tup: :weee: :weee: :weee: :weee: :tup:

[tpdncr4christ]

I think straight people have an unfair advantage over gay people, cause there is no derogatory term for them. So we've gotten into say stuff is straight, or stiff, rather than saying its gay.:D

[Joe Allen]

Austin here... I hate to just butt in on the conversation, but I feel implied to...

I've written about three reply's. I think the moderators would have stepped in on all three. That doesn't happen very often Joe. In my opinion, you don't deserve to be called gay, at least not the gay I am.

Concerning the word "gay" I embody the word more than most people. I don't cross dress... but I do cross excesorize. I have this lovely little pin from disney land that is a rainbow of Mickey's head. I wear it all the time. I have multiple pink shirts, I style my own jeans. I'm even working on an embroidery pair, with vines and flowers. I have a coordinated wardrobe that spans one color of the rainbow everday. I shave my legs and my armpits. I even have a design for my own clothes line, including a T-shirt with a campfire on it (with rainbow flames) with the caption "Caution: May cause third degree burns." I love theatre, and talk in a tenor voice. I am truly magnificently fantabulously flamboyantly gay, and very much not afraid of it.

However, does that make me any more gay than my boyfriend? Unless he is laughing, or kissing me... you can hardly tell that he is gay at all. In fact, many people think he is dating his best friend, not me... :eek: Does that make him any less gay than me? No. If you are a boy, and you like boys, or a man who likes men, you are gay. If you are a man who is married to a woman, who likes men, you are gay. End of story. Identify yourself as you will, but that is my definition.

I, like you, have a problem. My problem is with guys who make these exclusive club houses, with their "no girls allowed" signs on them. Don't be exclusive, it's not cool. It's straight (rather than saying "it's gay").

:rainbow::rainbow::rainbow:

The moderator should have told me by email that my original post starting a thread I created was moved immediately after it was done. I use a disposable email address for these forums so that any thing connected with Soulforce will go into my "Spirituality" topic email folder.

I am NOT anti-female at all. When it comes to having friends, I am omni-social. The "no-girls-allowed" thing is just a phase normal boys go through and some immature men never grow out of (and that includes homosexual adults, too).

I have every right to self-identify as "gay" since I am out of the proverbial "homosexual closet" and happy being just whom I am. When it has no connection with homosexuals, the word "gay" refers to being "cheerful and lighthearted." When I was 16 years old, my uncle's senior class play in high school was "When Our Hearts Were Young And Gay." It was based on the book of the same name by Cornelia Otis Skinner and was about 2 teenage girls who traveled to Europe on their own on a cruise ship and what they did in Europe.

I was not cheerful about being a homosexual when I was in the closet.

Unless another exclusively homosexual man has the special gift of "gaydar," there is no way that a person can even know what my sexual orientation is if they see me out in public. I usually wear denim jeans (I have two pair of Wranglers with the PBR logo on them - - That's Professional Bull Riders) and sometimes wear bib overalls. Most of my shirts are western style or the kind a rural man would usually wear (I do like flannel and denim shirts). If I dress up, I wear cowboy boots (I spent over $200.00 for the last pair I bought and they will probably last me at least a decade; they are ALL leather. I do have pair in really good shape that are 12 years old but, they are made with imitation leather. I have no stereotypical characteristics.

Oh, I have a Wrangler shirt which a Native American lady sewed rainbow ribbons on it so that I have a Native American Style Ribbon shirt. She also did bead work and beaded jewelry. She even made a pink triangle drop ear ring for me and I did not even ask her to do that.

I am a member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. While I look more like Gabby Hayes of Old TV and movie westerns, Native American full-bloods have asked to what tribe I belong and I had not even mentioned being Native American yet. I have recognized men having Native American ancestry without them telling me, too.

Oh, I have some rainbow lapel pins and even a rainbow striped baseball style cap which I bought at a Christian bookstore many years ago.

I knew a macho type who was born in Mexico and he never kissed his partner when they were together. Mike was raised not to show natural affection to another man. But, when he shook my hand when he saw me or was saying goodbye, I felt that he really loved me unconditionally as a friend. Mike used his truck to move me to Richard's place and he did not even charge me for doing and would not take any money.

I was raised by parents who showed natural affection to all of their children by hugging and kissing them. One of the sins listed in Romans 1 is the sin of being without natural affection.

[andrewlittle]

... that's why I liked it so much. It kind of rings of my wife saying to me, "Damn, you're such a man." Trust me, I know darn well it's not a compliment, but I've been saying it a lot lately myself. It turns cultural dominance on its ear, where it belongs.

[belladonnacordial]

stuff is straight, or stiff

Hey now, some of my best friends are heterosexuals :D

Since my bottom is getting rather straight now, I think it's time for bed.

Peace and love my siblings, Donna

[Daniel]

I love theatre, and talk in a tenor voice. I am truly magnificently fantabulously flamboyantly gay, and very much not afraid of it.

Ah....theatre-cross-accessoring-man. The gods have smiled on you. And I smile with them.

[Joe Allen]

Oh, I have had people LOOK-AT things I have posted in forums and in internet Message Bulletin Boards and they only looked for key words in what I posted without reading the whole thing. I have quoted what someone else wrote; but, in their reply to my post, it was obvious that they had not read I was quoting someone else so that I could comment on it.

There are people who read the Bible they same way they read these messages. They read their preconceived ideas into what they read without even trying to understand what the author was writing in the first place. They read the book of Jonah and they don't see that God created a great fish to swallow Jonah, they see a whale swallowed Jonah. They will even swear that it was a whale.

[Daniel]

Oh, I have had people LOOK-AT things I have posted in forums and in internet Message Bulletin Boards and they only looked for key words in what I posted without reading the whole thing. I have quoted what someone else wrote; but, in their reply to my post, it was obvious that they had not read I was quoting someone else so that I could comment on it.


Hi Joe- I'm sure we have all felt that things we have written here are not given their due. It's so easy to be aggrieved at things said, not said, or not said well enough to suit our ego. God knows I've had my share of run-ins with various posters here. Why- in fact- as recently as a day ago- I got all fired up about something on another thread. But you know what? Life goes on. How are we going to spend the time that we have here? Complaining and moaning that others do not take us seriously?

There are more important things to do here.

[tpdncr4christ]

The moderator should have told me by email that my original post starting a thread I created was moved immediately after it was done. I use a disposable email address for these forums so that any thing connected with Soulforce will go into my "Spirituality" topic email folder.

I am NOT anti-female at all. When it comes to having friends, I am omni-social. The "no-girls-allowed" thing is just a phase normal boys go through and some immature men never grow out of (and that includes homosexual adults, too).

I have every right to self-identify as "gay" since I am out of the proverbial "homosexual closet" and happy being just whom I am. When it has no connection with homosexuals, the word "gay" refers to being "cheerful and lighthearted." When I was 16 years old, my uncle's senior class play in high school was "When Our Hearts Were Young And Gay." It was based on the book of the same name by Cornelia Otis Skinner and was about 2 teenage girls who traveled to Europe on their own on a cruise ship and what they did in Europe.

I was not cheerful about being a homosexual when I was in the closet.

Unless another exclusively homosexual man has the special gift of "gaydar," there is no way that a person can even know what my sexual orientation is if they see me out in public. I usually wear denim jeans (I have two pair of Wranglers with the PBR logo on them - - That's Professional Bull Riders) and sometimes wear bib overalls. Most of my shirts are western style or the kind a rural man would usually wear (I do like flannel and denim shirts). If I dress up, I wear cowboy boots (I spent over $200.00 for the last pair I bought and they will probably last me at least a decade; they are ALL leather. I do have pair in really good shape that are 12 years old but, they are made with imitation leather. I have no stereotypical characteristics.

Oh, I have a Wrangler shirt which a Native American lady sewed rainbow ribbons on it so that I have a Native American Style Ribbon shirt. She also did bead work and beaded jewelry. She even made a pink triangle drop ear ring for me and I did not even ask her to do that.

I am a member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. While I look more like Gabby Hayes of Old TV and movie westerns, Native American full-bloods have asked to what tribe I belong and I had not even mentioned being Native American yet. I have recognized men having Native American ancestry without them telling me, too.

Oh, I have some rainbow lapel pins and even a rainbow striped baseball style cap which I bought at a Christian bookstore many years ago.

I knew a macho type who was born in Mexico and he never kissed his partner when they were together. Mike was raised not to show natural affection to another man. But, when he shook my hand when he saw me or was saying goodbye, I felt that he really loved me unconditionally as a friend. Mike used his truck to move me to Richard's place and he did not even charge me for doing and would not take any money.

I was raised by parents who showed natural affection to all of their children by hugging and kissing them. One of the sins listed in Romans 1 is the sin of being without natural affection.

Ok... Let's talk. The "No Girls Allowed" signs is from a post of mine forever ago. It was about exclusiveness and people building metaphorical tree houses where people decided that only certain people were allowed in their tree house. I wasn't refering to you being anti-femine at all... sorry...:eek:

I don't quite understand the rest of your reply. You're "problem" is when married men call themselves gay. I don't see how that can be a problem... so I would like some clarification as to what it is you want to hear. Because I think you are the only one with said problem.