Can Anyone Help Make My Head Make Sense?

[somanyquestions]

Greetings from paradise. By most appearances, I am a successful Pastor, dynamic leader, loving husband and caring father. While these things are true to an extent, although mostly on the surface (except for caring father, I really am passionate about my awesome two kids), they are not even a fraction of who I really am.

Who I really am...well, who am I, really? I have become who I have always wanted to be and yet everything I have never wanted to be at the same time. This has created the greatest brain $%& in the history of mankind.

I truly love what I do as a Pastor. I love my congregants tremendously and they love me just as much. Although conservative (please don't hate me for this :) ), I am not your typical Pastor. I am very open and loving. I am highly relational, I know each member of my growing church by name. I know their stories and they know mine....well, except for the deep secrets that have never been shared...until this moment with you.

My earliest memory including homosexual feelings goes back as young as the age of 5. This has truly been a life-long struggle. It has been a struggle because of two reasons:
1) I grew up in a tremendously homophobic family and could never have come out without being outcasted by my family whom I love very much.
2) Although the gay feelings were always there, so were the desires to fall in love with a woman and have a family.

I liked sex with women - I still do. But there is an emotional/physical bond with men that is unequalled in every way...OK and I love the sex too {blush}.

I am not willing to give up my wife and kids, my ministry and the church that I love so dearly. At the same time, I am pained and dulled after so many years of repressing truth from within me. In a perfect world, I would live both facets of whom I am, but you and I know that this is not perfection - only what I would like perfection to look like.

So I throw this out to the public at large (or at least to the SouldForce public at large), seeking wisdom. Please, I earnestly seek wisdom - not opinions or prejudices - just pure and simple wisdom.

Thank you.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Hi somanyquestions and welcome.

Since I'm up late tonight, I thought I'd attempt a response. However there are others here who have been in opposite sex relationships that can probably supply much more wisdom.

Do you think you identify as bisexual or homosexual. If you are bisexual, could you find relief by being open about your orientation with people close to you, such as your wife? I think for many bisexuals, that makes all the difference because they no longer feel like they are repressing a big truth about themselves. They open up about their attractions to people of the same sex.

Now if you are homosexual like me (I'm probably close to a six on the Kinsey scale) then a deep need in your life is not being met by being in an opposite sex relationship. In such a situation, you probably can't even socialize with gay friends or even be in the company of people like you except in secret. That's a tough place to be and the tension that builds from it is what ultimately pushes some of us out of the closet whether we would have chosen to come out or not.

We can recommend some great resources to help with the questions. There are books for Baptists, videos for Methodists, stories for Presbyterians, articles for Catholics and more out there.

[HarmlessEccentric]

Have you read "Stranger at the Gate" yet? Mel had to face some of the same questions, and I found his story to be very helpful.

I'm not in your position- I was raised in the church and had a career in the church, but I didn't get married or start a family. I can say, though, that I found living a lie to be incredibly draining, and the more I faced the difference between who I was and my life, the more I was torn in half.

For me, finding ways to live my life honestly, even though it meant changing my life almost completely, was the answer. That might not be your answer... but the further I move toward a life that is fully integrated with my homosexuality, the more I experience a sense of relief and freedom.

So the first step is to look deeply inside yourself and decide who you are and what you need. For me, that involved a summer spent doing almost nothing but swimming and thinking (I think best in the water, don't ask me why). We get so many signals from outside ourselves that figuring out what's inside us can be incredibly difficult.

Have you thought about a nice long prayer retreat? Go up to a cabin in the woods with a notebook, a pile of pencils, and a sleeping bag, and try to get in touch with God and with your own soul?

[u-dog]

Hi SMQ,

You and I have some things in common. I too am a pastor. I'm not a conservative. I am orthodox theologically and liberal on social issues. I am in a 20+ year marriage with a woman and just sent the last of our incredible kids off to college this year. My family is not homophobic, nor is my wife. I disclosed my same sex attraction to her before we married, but only came out to her as "gay" in the last two years. It has been difficult, but it has deepened our relationship and our love for each other. The kids still don't know but my siblings and a few close friends do. I have no question that my kids will be fine with it when I disclose to them (probably this summer) We also attend a gay affirming church together on Sunday evenings. All of this has helped to relieve the tension and the burden of living inauthentically. I don't think I could have gone on living the lie much longer. twenty years of chronic, off and on depression would eventually have killed me.

You didn't say much about your wife and her attitudes, but it seems to me that whatever you decide to do... you need to share your secret with her. If you decide to stay together, your relationship won't be real -- won't be everything it CAN be, until she knows the WHOLE you. If you decide to leave your marriage, she deserves all the time and attention she needs to process the information and deserves to be a part of the decision making process. If you decide to open your marriage in some way that allows you to explore the gay side of your nature... she needs to be aware of the risks you will be taking that involve her as well. Believe me, this will NOT be easy. but it will be easier than if she finds out in some other way. Once you are out to her, there are lots of resources (well, maybe not LOTS.. but some) for her and for you in deciding how to shape your lives post-disclosure. I waited WAY to long to open this conversation with my wife because I was afraid. Afraid that once I told her it would be all over, and I didn't want that. I wanted to live in the same house with my kids and watch them grow. Afraid that word would get out and it would destroy my career. Afraid that I would spend the rest of my life alone. I suppose any of those things COULD have happened, but they didn't and now I wish I had been honest sooner. But thats just my experience.

Blessings on you SMQ You are in my prayers.

Dave

[andrewlittle]

Although conservative (please don't hate me for this :) ), I am not your typical Pastor.
While you will frequently find sweeping generalizations about "conservative Christians (CCs)" and "fundamentalists" on these boards (most of the time in response to sweeping generalizations from some CCs), some of the members are, in fact, quite conservative in many respects. We have embraced visitors with very conservative views, but who asked questions openly, humbly and with an ear to hearing. I, for one, span a spectrum of conservative to liberal on different issues of faith. Anyway, that's the long answer.

The short answer is that we'd like to offer you a safe place, out of love, in which you can explore your journey.

...there is an emotional/physical bond with men that is unequalled in every way... I am not willing to give up my wife and kids, my ministry and the church that I love so dearly. At the same time, I am pained and dulled after so many years of repressing truth from within me. In a perfect world, I would live both facets of whom I am, but you and I know that this is not perfection - only what I would like perfection to look like.
There are people on these boards, who may introduce themselves to you (oops, there's one already), who have life experiences very much like yours, and who have have resolved them in various ways (or not). I think, therefore, you will find some kinship within our "doors".

May I ask some clarifying, deeply personal, but still anonymous, questions? It may help us understand the level of pain you are experiencing and provide us better opportunities to support you in your quest.

If so, please respond. My questions, anyway, will be very direct, but will be asked out of love and respect for who you are as a living image of God.

[Zerbie]

You are most welcome here. :love:

I've never been in your situation, but I do want to respond to welcome you and offer you whatever support I can.

I agree with Dave (that is, U Dog) that you probably need to talk about this openly with your wife. *Especially* if you are considering having sexual contact with men while remaining married. There are too many risks associated with that NOT to be open with your partner, risks for both of you. Your wife deserves better. And you deserve a resolution to your conflict.

There are resources out there for situations like this. Straight Spouses Network - you might try a search on that, and see what comes up. Or search your local gay community for confidential support groups or family therapists who are experienced in counselling mixed orientation marriages.

You need a way out of two mutually-exclusive non-negotiables. There are folks out there with stories of their own, gay-friendly therapists, support groups - keep searching and see what's out there. There may be grey areas that you haven't thought of before. There is a way to resolve this. You, along with your wife, need to find it.

But meanwhile, I second the suggestion to take off for a long weekend by yourself, getting in touch with your deepest spiritual needs, and the guidance that will set you on your best path. It won't necessarily be fun, but it will put you in touch with a you that's beeen neglected since you were 5 years old :'( :love: - and then you will have a chance to grow into your complete self - inside you will be whole. :dove: In my book, it's the inside stuff that really matters, because that's what we have to live with 24/7. Lying down to sleep at night, it's your inside stuff you have to bring to the pillow. Ya know?

[dsdrane]

Hello, Somany.

I would like to add my voice in welcoming you.

I would also like to congratulate you on giving "voice" to your secret by seeking counsel from others. It can't have been easy, but, then, we've all been in that place (albeit in widely different situations).

I agree especially with Zerbie and Harmless' suggestion to get somewhere quiet and continue to listen to the voice that has clearly already started speaking with you. I think you know full well what you need to do, but, again, as we all know, there are a number of ways to get from Point A to Point B, and that's where the thinking and planning come in. It is my hope for you -- as well as those you love -- to get where you're all going with the best prospect possible for living happy lives.

It's cliched, but a journey of 1,000 miles begins with one step. And you, my dear Sir, have already taken your first.

Keep going!

[somanyquestions]

Wow. You mean there actually exists a place where I can openly talk about these things? My most sincere gratitude for your postings filled with grace and love.

Jamie - you ask a question I have been asking myself for decades (that makes me sound old! I'm only 41. Still a puppy :) ) I honestly do not know if I am bi or gay. Any advice on figuring that one out?

AndrewLittle - you may ask as many clarifying questions as you would like. I will answer them honestly and openly.

UDog, Harmless, Zerbie, DS - thank you for your caring feedback and suggestions. Two things you all mentioned are so true: I need to get away and do some serious soul searching. I need to be open with my wife about all of this - but that seems so incredibly impossible.

I have preserved the sanctity of our marrriage but I struggle with aproaches form openly gay men in our community. I'm an attractive guy and my eyes do wander towards the same (often unintentionally) - which creates situations where I can be very vulnerable at times. Why do public bathrooms have to be so damn difficult. I just want to pee, darnit! :) I do remain faithful to my wife. I fear what my irresponsibility could bring into our marriage and will not allow that to happen.

Again, a million thank you's for your warm and welcoming comments. I asked for wisdom and that is exactly what I have found here.

God bless your lives in many great ways.

p.s. - Do I need to clarify the conservative thing? Although I am conservative in many ways, I am also very open in many others. It's a strange equilibrium that is neither left nor right, nor even the middle. Sort of like my life, I guess.

[nmwolfboy]

You are very welcome here. :wave:

Though not in your situation, your confusion, pain, and love for others comes through loud & clear. God can help you make some sense out where you are right now. There are many here at Soulforce who are willing to listen and share what wisdom we've been blessed to discover.

i add my voice to those who have suggested that you make some kind of retreat, to make some space for your soul-searching. My prayers are with you.

-Scott

[scorpiogirl]

Hello and Welcome! :)

About your question on figuring out whether you are gay or bi, I thought you might find this helpful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

The page also has links to other informative sites that may help you.

:love:
Merritt

[andrewlittle]

You don't mind that name, do you? I liked Dave's take on your pseudonym better than the acronym.

You don't need to clarify, for me anyway, the conservative thing. It sounds somewhat akin to where I stand. I was curious, however, if there were doctrines, dogmas, rules or attitudes, especially in your local church, that added to your pain. It was more a question of knowing how much, if at all, the very position you love compounds your situation because you have to remain silent about, or even espouse, organizational homophobia or condemnation. It would be that much more painful if you have to generally participate in the criticism of who you really are.

Another question was to see if I could understand what was more troubling or painful for you when you said, "I am pained and dulled after so many years of repressing truth from within me. In a perfect world, I would live both facets of whom I am, but you and I know that this is not perfection - only what I would like perfection to look like."

Is the abstinence from being able to love authentically the central issue in this, or the fact that you have to deny or chamoflage who you are, or both equally?

As to the gay or bi thing, it has been discussed here in several forums. Ultimately we all fall somewhere on a continuum from purely heterosexual to purely homosexual, with few being truly at one extreme or the other. For almost all people (addly enough, especially homophobes) there is some measure of attraction to and for both genders. The level of each attraction, or the intensity of one over the other, may give us some way of self-identifying.

You mentioned enjoying sex with women, but really loving sex with men. These could be in equal or unequal levels. The latter could be more attractive right now because it is more difficult or impossible to enjoy.

Really, though, gay or bi would be a label you may or may not wish to own. It is primarily a way of self-identifying to describe aspects of your sexuality. It wouldn't change who and what you are as a person or child of God.

[Zerbie]

Wow. You mean there actually exists a place where I can openly talk about these things? My most sincere gratitude for your postings filled with grace and love.

Jamie - you ask a question I have been asking myself for decades (that makes me sound old! I'm only 41. Still a puppy :) ) I honestly do not know if I am bi or gay. Any advice on figuring that one out?

I need to be open with my wife about all of this - but that seems so incredibly impossible.

I have preserved the sanctity of our marrriage but I struggle with aproaches form openly gay men in our community. I'm an attractive guy and my eyes do wander towards the same (often unintentionally) - which creates situations where I can be very vulnerable at times. Why do public bathrooms have to be so damn difficult. I just want to pee, darnit! :) I do remain faithful to my wife. I fear what my irresponsibility could bring into our marriage and will not allow that to happen.


p.s. - Do I need to clarify the conservative thing? Although I am conservative in many ways, I am also very open in many others. It's a strange equilibrium that is neither left nor right, nor even the middle. Sort of like my life, I guess.

Welcome back. Brave soul! These are tough questions, but well worth delving into for *your* answers.

Hmm, gay or bi? Tough one. One that other people deal with also. The problem I think is that labels are a convenience for many people who DO perceive themselves as solidly one orientation or another, but for a lot of the rest of us, we are more fluid in our experience than a strict label can describe.

I think it's quite possible that you are genuinely bisexual - being bisexual need not mean an equal level or emotional and physical attraction to persons of both genders, but there can be degrees. I always tended to be more viscerally, physically attracted to women and more emotionally drawn to men. But sometimes it was the other way around. If this is indeed a question that you've lived with for decades then maybe it's time to ask some different questions. Rather than pinning down "what" you are, figure out what needs you have that are not being met - then figure out ways to meet those needs that fit with your value system and the relationship with your wife.

Feel free to use us as a sounding board. Yep! There are places where these things can be talked about openly, and this forum is a good one. As internet fora go, this is one of the safest. People who don't play nice tend not to stick around here for long. It makes me kind of sad that you haven't been able to hash these things out with anyone til now, but otoh I'm glad you found this place!!!

At 41 you still have lots of life ahead of you! I do encourage you to be open with your wife about what you're going through. Who knows what kind of growth you might go through together? Take your time though - I would recommend talking with a therapist or at the very least, making a concrete plan about what it is that you want to share with her and to what end.

I encourage you to ignore the cute guys in public restrooms. Lotsa problems that could be, as I know you are aware.

If you are secure in yourself - once you have a sense of who you are orientationally, and are secure in your relationship, you won't be vulnerable this way. But you are right to be wary - there are some predators in the gay community, and even if you don't run into that - you could run into far more complications getting into affairs. I think perhaps one of the questions you need to answer is if you can live with yourself without exploring relationships with men in a sexual sense. Maybe some of the guys can help you ask those kinds of questions.

Though fwiw, I seem to recall such a thing as a Klein sexual orientation grid. ?????? :confused: Sound familiar anyone? Anyway, whatever it's called, there is a questionnaire you can print out and answer by yourself and it places you on a sexual orientation grid.

For me, I resolved the issue of who I was and I met my needs in dating women (and men) before I met my husband. I needed to date people of both genders and would have exploded if I had tried to commit to one individual before that played out. That way, when I did meet my guy I was ready to commit to one partner, and I knew it.

No you don't need to clarify the conservative thing. :p This thread is about your personal situation, not a political or theological debate (those happen on other sections of the website if you want to jump in.) Anyway, most people are NOT caricatures of a "liberal" or "conservative" stance. Most are a mix, like you.

Glad you're still around. I wish you and yours the utmost best. :pray:
:love: :love: :love:

[marutidas]

Namaste Somany, Hugs:love:

Unfortunaetly, I have never been in your current predicament, so there is no real adivice I can give you.

The only thing that comes to my mind, I follow your heart, really look deep inside, what does your soul tell you? This maybe easier said than done, but only you knows whats best for you.

Just look to God for strength and the answers will come.
~~~Maruti Das:flower:

[belladonnacordial]

Hi SMQ!

Welcome to the forum! This is a safe place with wonderful people. I am so happy that you have found us.

I am 40, bisexual, and female with no preference as to the gender of my partners. I have had numerous long-term relationships with both men and women. I am about to celebrate ten monogamous years with my partner who is male. I knew that I was bisexual before I ever heard the term.

Many who express a preference in one direction or another choose to self-identify as bisexual simply to honor that other aspect of their sexuality even if it is a secondary aspect. Ultimately self-identification is about what you feel best honors the truth of you. There is no wrong answer only one more right for you.

As you know, society seeks to pressure us to conform. While pressure does not change who we are, it can lead to an awful lot of pain and confusion. Those pressures exist within the GLBT community as surely as in society at large. That is why it is important to heed Zerbie and Harmless and others who suggest a sort of informed meditation on the subject. I suggest these are some helpful questions you might ponder:

Do you sexually fantasize about women?
Were you in a loving sexual relationship with a man would you still be sexually attracted to women?
If homosexuality rather than heterosexuality were the norm in our society, would you still seek out sex with women?

You will find much inspiration, unconditional love, friendship, and support here and many people who can relate to your beliefs, problems, and experiences. Feel free to private message me any time you want to talk.

Much love and peace to you,
Donna

[Joe Allen]

Hello and Welcome! :)

About your question on figuring out whether you are gay or bi, I thought you might find this helpful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

The page also has links to other informative sites that may help you.

:love:
Merritt

The Kinsey scale from "0 to 6" or "1 to 6" is sort of a straight line continuum with "6" being exclusively homosexual and "0" or "1" being exclusively heterosexual.

In my personal academic research study and talking with others, to guys especially, if I were to draw a graph of the varieties of sexual orienation, it would be more like a bell curve with omnisexuals in the middle at the highest point on the graph. An omnisexual is a person who is bisexual; but, his physiological sexual attractions feelings are directed toward both genders on an equal basis. I really believe that bisexuals outnumber heterosexuals and homosexuals combined.

My sexual orientation is exclusively homosexual. But, I tell folks that I am bi-social (as in omni-social) in that I have friends who are all genders.

When I was attending Christian Chapel (Assemblies of God) here in Tulsa, Oklahoma in the latter half of the 1970s and the early half of the 1980s, some of the elders in the church knew almost every thing about me except they did not know my sexual orienation. Many of the things which they knew about me which they did not find out from me or those who personally knew me was told to them by the Lord through the power of the Holy Spirit.

"somanyquestions", if you have a person in your church who is in the closet and has the special gift of "gaydar," he might know what your sexual orientation is but, won't tell anyone nor talk to you about it.

In another AG, where, Ray, a friend of mine was attending which was the same church I attended before I went to ORU, there was a man, Gene, who was a musician like Ray. Ray (an ORU grad) asked me, after I left the closet, if Gene was gay. That was because Ray's gaydar worked with Gene. I later had an answer to Ray's question; because, I personally knew another guy, Dwight, who told me about going to a motel room with a guy named Gene and when he told me everything he knew about the person and even where he lived, I told Dwight that I had known Gene for years. But, I had never thought he would be doing that. Well, by the time that Dwight new him, Gene's wife had divorced him. But, Gene remained in the closet. My mother's information about Gene and his marriage was that his wife treated him badly; but, I believe that she divorced him because she found out his secret life.

I don't know if Ray and Gene's pastor know about them; but, their pastor has known that I am openly gay since 1990. When Mom still lived in Tulsa, she knew that Ray was gay away from the church and his job as a teacher. Ray had wondered if Mom knew about him since we spent a lot of time together when I lived with Mom in the early 1990s. I told him that Mom did not care about that and she only cared about his relationship with the Lord.

When I told Mom about what Ray asked, she mentioned his playing violin solos at her church where Ray was also a member. She said, "Oh, some of the older folks who often request that he play specials might want him out of the church if they knew." After I no longer lived with Mom, the pastor mentioned that several of the church members had gay relatives. One of those members was also the pastoral counselor on his staff who had an openly gay son who is a Christian. That staff member went to be with the Lord a few years back; but, he was licensed and certified as a mental health therapist.

[Joe Allen]

Sometimes a person can have sexual fantasies about others, of the same gender or the opposite gender, and yet in real life, experience no internal physiological sexual attraction toward those in his sexual fantasies.

It is possible to have a sexual fantasy about a member of the opposite sex and yet have no sexual feelings toward that person at all when in their presence.

I have a friend who is in complete denial of the fact that he does experience physiological attractions towards guys and he tells others that he is neither gay nor bisexual. A few months ago, Kaland was staying with me and he told my neighbor, Mike, that the medicines he was taking prescribed by a psychiatrist prevented him from having erections. I immediately piped up and interrupted the conversation they were having and said that I knew better than that. Mike knew that I am openly gay; but, he accepted Kaland's claim that he is not gay.

Kaland has a problem with accepting himself due to the fact he was sexually abused by a step-father and he refuses to tell mental health professionals what happened. He works really hard at trying to prove he's a real man by dating women and even marrying one. His own mother denies that Kaland was abused at all. While I know that Kaland has fantasies about members of the opposite sex and I have observed him looking at heterosexual "stuff" on my computer, he never showed sexual arousal when there was no men in the pictures. But, he has gotten arousals when snuggled up to me on the sofa when there was no sexual touching taking place and nothing to remind him of sex either. He thinks that just happens for no reason. He told me one time that in order for him to have sex with a woman, she had to initiate it first.

[somanyquestions]

Well, I took the Kinsey quiz and there is still no concrete answer...which leads me to some of the comments posted where perhaps this is not that important. I scored a 4. Honestly, though, I feel more like a 5.5 or 6. I feel like a homosexual living a heterosexual man's life.

Bella asked in her post:
Do you sexually fantasize about women?
Were you in a loving sexual relationship with a man would you still be sexually attracted to women?
If homosexuality rather than heterosexuality were the norm in our society, would you still seek out sex with women?

My answers all led to a definite Homosexual orientation.

ALittle asked if my despair was wrought from a longing for same gender love or from a denial of who I really am. The answer to that question is mostly pain caused by denial and some pain caused by not being able to love a man as much as I would like to.

You guys have helped see the orientation issue more clearly and to more specifically identify with my self. Perhaps that's a good first step in a healing process?

Another great question was if I felt I had to repress my orientation because of doctrinal or dogmatic stances in my denomination. That is a great question because I have intentilonally stayed far away from condemning anyone's choice in life. I teach a Gospel of peace and love - and an ever increasing search for depth and meaning in a relationship with God. Out of that, comes a natural desire to live in His will for your life. Yes, my denomination is openly against homosexuality, but you will never hear that messge come from my mouth - how hypocritical would that be?!

Thank you, again, for your kind words and wisdom. As a Pastor, I pour myself into everyone else and often am left empty. I am not accustomed to having others pour into me. It is quite refreshing!

Love and blessings.

[NathanATX]

Well, I took the Kinsey quiz and there is still no concrete answer...which leads me to some of the comments posted where perhaps this is not that important. I scored a 4. Honestly, though, I feel more like a 5.5 or 6. I feel like a homosexual living a heterosexual man's life.

Bella asked in her post:
Do you sexually fantasize about women?
Were you in a loving sexual relationship with a man would you still be sexually attracted to women?
If homosexuality rather than heterosexuality were the norm in our society, would you still seek out sex with women?

My answers all led to a definite Homosexual orientation.

ALittle asked if my despair was wrought from a longing for same gender love or from a denial of who I really am. The answer to that question is mostly pain caused by denial and some pain caused by not being able to love a man as much as I would like to.

You guys have helped see the orientation issue more clearly and to more specifically identify with my self. Perhaps that's a good first step in a healing process?

Another great question was if I felt I had to repress my orientation because of doctrinal or dogmatic stances in my denomination. That is a great question because I have intentilonally stayed far away from condemning anyone's choice in life. I teach a Gospel of peace and love - and an ever increasing search for depth and meaning in a relationship with God. Out of that, comes a natural desire to live in His will for your life. Yes, my denomination is openly against homosexuality, but you will never hear that messge come from my mouth - how hypocritical would that be?!

Thank you, again, for your kind words and wisdom. As a Pastor, I pour myself into everyone else and often am left empty. I am not accustomed to having others pour into me. It is quite refreshing!

Love and blessings.

When I was a church leader and going to ORU, I was the same way. I made it a point to never be condemning of anyone.

[Daniel]

Hi SoManyQ,

I see you've met quite a few wonderful people here, and would like to add my voice to the encouragement you've gotten to listen to that Still Small Voice inside you.

Even though I've sat on a cushion for years in meditation, there are times when I'm too wound-up or upset to do that. Then a long walk is in order- just getting out and seeing something else can give me much needed perspective.

The Spirit can speak to us- I swear- through the wind in the trees- or the light on the water. We're just swimming in Love.

:love:

I send you much peace and joy.