GLBT-friendly Christians and belief in Satan, demons, and angels?

[Diane Vera]

The thread Who Thinks A Peace Sign Is Satanic? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1632) is in the "National and World News/Issues" sub-forum. Since the discussion has turned theological, I've decided to reply to some posts in that thread here, in what seems to be a more appropriate sub-forum for discussing theology.

I would be very interested to hear how various kinds of Christians here at Soulforce feel about belief in Satan, demons, and angels.

First, about belief in Satan:

On page 2 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1632&page=2) of the above-mentioned thread, novaseeker wrote, in post #22 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=17845&postcount=22), on 01-09-2007:

The question for me is: "is it helpful to think like that (i.e., constantly on the look-out for Satan)?"

I think it isn't, because instead of encouraging the person be awake to reality and constantly looking for opportunities to be loving and life-giving, it instead encourages people to be tentative, suspicious, and judgmental, constantly trying to discern whether something is "of Satan" or not. Generally, it results in a remarkably different approach to daily life and one which, in my own very personal opinion, is not particularly Christian because far from encouraging us to move beyond ourselves and love freely and extravagantly, it instead focuses on the need to keep oneself pure and holy so as to ensure one's own salvation. How far removed this is from the Jesus Christ we meet in the Gospels, who actively sought to sully his hands with the riff-raff of his day, instead of seeking to seal himself off from it to maintain his purity.

The above is more-or-less how I would expect most liberal Christians (and most GLBT-friendly Christians) to feel about belief in Satan. I am curious to know: Do most people in Soulforce agree with the above? Or is there a substantial number of Christians here who do believe in an all-evil Devil?

Also on page 2 of that thread, Blossom wrote, in post #26 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=18071&postcount=26), on 01-12-2007:

Hi Rick,

I'll check later to see if I can think of some resources or websites that you might find helpful. In Christianity, there are different views on who Satan is. Thankfully, agreeing on this isn't a huge deal. Some see Satan as a real person/entity and some see him/it as an evil force. It isn't hard to accept the latter view, since it is clear that there is evil in the world.

But what is evil? It seems to me that "good" and "evil" are simply categories of human qualities and actions, based on whatever set of criteria we happen to be using as a moral standard. Therefore, the idea of cosmic "good" and "evil" seems very unlikely to me, regardless of whether they are seen as abstract "forces" or personified as spiritual political parties. It does not seem to be that "good" and "evil" are fundamental cosmic essences of any kind.

I was brought up by conservative Protestant parents back in the Cold War days. When I was little I believed that capitalism was good and Communism was evil. In my early teens, I learned that Communists believed the exact opposite, that Communism was good and capitalism was evil. I realized that neither side was all-good or all-evil. I realized that both sides had both their good points and their bad points. I then came to realize that, in just about any conflict, it is unlikely that one side will be all-good and the other side will be all-evil, although each side will try to paint itself as all-good and the other side as all-evil. Therefore, the traditional Christian ideas of God vs. Satan and angels vs. demons began to seem to me suspiciously propaganda-ish. This, in turn, was one of my five philosophical objections to Christianity when I gave up Christianity at the age of 15. (I did not consider becoming a more liberal type of Christian, since, at that time, I pretty much accepted the typical conservative Christian all-or-nothing attitude.)

I guess I should state that I am now a theistic Satanist. I became a theistic Satanist many years after I gave up Christianity, at the age of 33, as the result of a totally unexpected series of profound, ecstatic spiritual experiences involving a being that answered to the name of "Satan." I then spent quite a few years contemplating the meaning of those experiences. I arrived at a polytheistic belief system in which I see Satan as a being who, among other things, enjoys challenging dogma and encouraging people to think for themselves. I do NOT see Satan as personifying "Evil," though He does indeed encourage many things that are "Evil" from the point of view of fundamentalist and traditionalist Christians.

Perhaps I should also mention that I've come to see the "God" of liberal Christians and the "God" of conservative Christians as distinct entities. I'm inclined to believe that the entiry I've experienced as Satan is indeed on hostile terms with the "God" of Satan's avowed enemies (conservative Christians, who in most cases do believe in an all-evil Devil) but not necessarily on hostile terms with the "God" of those Christians who don't believe in a Devil and who thus are not Satan's avowed enemies.

I hope I haven't offended anyone here by stating my beliefs. I notice that Thomas Potter (BronzDragon) seems to be accepted here. (He and I already know each other from Satanist forums.)

Anyhow, Blossom went on to say:

To see Satan as a real person/entity, one would accept the traditional teaching that Satan was an angel who fell from heaven (by "fell", I mean chose to rebel against God). The idea is that God gives each individual the choice of whether or not to choose God--free will. This also indicates that God did not create the devil (the bad guy), but rather that God created a good individual (but one, like all of us, who had the choice to turn away from the goodness of God).

When Jesus came, he took the keys of hell and death and therefore overcame satan/the evil one (and therefore all works of evil or darkness). However, we still see that there is evil in this world. The Christian view that I ascribe to is that the Kingdom of God is both a present and future reality. Because Jesus has already been resurrected and thereby overcome death, we can begin to live out the Lord's prayer "thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven", so that we live with confidence and faith, and live as loving, godly people in this world. However, the Kingdom of God is also a future reality in that it will not be fully seen until the return of Jesus Christ (a basic Christian doctrine/expectation).

Furthermore, regarding the questions of "where is satan", I will answer that with a question, "where is heaven? where are angels?". When you think of not only the physical area of the universe, but also of the possiblities of an existence that stands outside of time that boggles our minds, then the "where is heaven/hell, etc." is swallowed up by wondering about God who can stand outside of time and space. We live in a physical realm. Yet many people have seen angels while others in the room see nothing. Where was the angel?

I would be interested to know what, if anything, most of the people at Soulforce believe about angels.

Has anyone here had experiences involving angels, demons, or other spirits?

Please don't worry too much about the possibility of offending me in your replies -- I have a pretty thick skin on these matters.

[BronzDragon]

The above is more-or-less how I would expect most liberal Christians (and most GLBT-friendly Christians) to feel about belief in Satan. I am curious to know: Do most people in Soulforce agree with the above? Or is there a substantial number of Christians here who do believe in an all-evil Devil?

» Thom says: ☛ PS: For our colleagues who would like to know: We define Satanism as Systems or Cultures of Faith whose attitude toward Satan or other related personalities (Kali, Lylyth, Set) is favorable or positive.

Example, it would be like saying that the test of the Christ in the desert after his baptism was a beneficial and necessary act for which act the Devil is suited.

As I finished the book, Religion Gone Bad I got the impression that, at the time of writing, Rev White had never met a Satanist of any flavor. I understood that he continued with what he had believed about us until that time. I also got the impression that, should he ever meet one of us in person, and we sought to join a SatyaGrahi action, that we would be welcomed, he would strive to learn more about us, and be wiser for the relationship. He wrote a couple of stories relating to Wiccans and Pagans, and this is where I gather my beliefs on this subject.

Honestly, you and I both regret that all too often someone will pop up with the Satanic label, and make a silly mess of things. As Satanists, we are reluctant to say who is and is not a Satanist, in part because of scope, and in part because of personal responsibility. We both have found a need to distance ourselves publically from some such persons. Yet, they remain, and make the rest of us look bad to those who have never met us, and rely on stereotypes for their opinions.

I expect that, many people here who were reared Christian, and continue to grow beyond the Cross, still has a little dirty laundry in their closet. I expect the best cure for intolerance is exposure (keep your pants on, I mean like getting a vaccine or being exposed to a biological agent). Folk like you and me who come here, let it be known where our culture of faith lies, are such agents for that education. I know there are Buddhists, Hindis and many others, some of whom have not made their preferences known. I have been here sometime and have yet to feel uncomfortable.

Well, except maybe in one area. I have questions about SatyaGraha and Magic, questions of other areas of ethics relating to where aggressions end (say, in wrestling, forensics, etc.) and violence begins. My discomfort is related more to the scope of study, than if we should broach the subject here.

[Diane Vera]

» Thom says: ☛ As I finished the book, Religion Gone Bad I got the impression that, at the time of writing, Rev White had never met a Satanist of any flavor. I understood that he continued with what he had believed about us until that time.

I haven't read that book yet. What did Mel White say about us?

[Diane Vera]

Back to the topic of this thread: What GLBT-friendly Christians believe about Satan, demons, angels, etc.

Below are some posts from the thread Evangelical Leader Steps Down in Alleged Gay Affair (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1488) pertaining to belief in demons.

I would be very interested in the comments of anyone here who grew up believing in demons, and who, in particular, may have believed that homosexuality was caused by demons.

To all such readers: How have your beliefs changed over the years? If you have stopped believing in demons, what led you to stop believing in them? If you still do believe in demons, have your beliefs about them changed in any way? I would also be very interested in your comments on the following:

In post #87 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=14534&postcount=87), 11-12-2006, on page 5 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1488&page=5) of the thread Evangelical Leader Steps Down in Alleged Gay Affair (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1488), Daniel gave us some quotes from the following article in Harpers: Soldiers of Christ: Inside America's most powerful megachurch with Pastor Ted Haggard (http://www.harpers.org/SoldiersOfChrist-20061103288348488.html) by Jeff Sharlet; posted on Thursday, November 2, 2006; originally from May 2005. One of the quotes was the following, about one of Ted Haggard's congregants:

Sitting across from me in her kitchen, she closed her big brown eyes and shushed herself. “I'm listening,” she said quietly.

“To the TV?” I asked. In the next room, Aaron Michael was watching an action movie; the house was filled with the sound of explosions.

“No,” said Linda. “To my Spirit.” She opened her eyes and explained the process she had undergone to reach her refined state. She called it “spiritual restoration.” Anyone can do it, she promised, “even a gay activist.” Linda had seen with her own eyes the sex demons that make homosexuals rebel against God, and she said they are gruesome; but she did not name them, for she would not “give demons glory.” They are all the same, she said.[3] “It's radicalism.”

She reached across the table and touched my hand. “I have to tell you, the spiritual battle is very real.” We are surrounded by demons, she explained, reciting the lessons she had learned in her small-group studies at New Life. The demons are cold, they need bodies, they long to come inside. People let them in in two different ways. One is to be sinned against. “Molested,” suggested Linda. The other is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. You could walk by sin—a murder, a homosexual act—and a demon will leap onto your bones. Cities, therefore, are especially dangerous.

In post #114 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=14909&postcount=114) on page 6 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1488&page=6) of that thread, Steven E. Webster wrote, on 11-21-2006, regarding the use of "exorcism" to "treat" homosexuals in Ted Haggard's church:

Friends,

This was an interesting article--make sure you read it to the end.

http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1326724&secid=1

I appreciate that the Gazette did a good job of presenting spokespeople for the various points of view, and not just presenting the Focus on the Family side of this story. Besides the interview with the rep from American Psychological Association, I really liked the lesbian former member of Haggard's church who describes what "treatment" was like--including "exorcism." I gather that belief in demons was a regular part of Haggard's "theology." How did this clown ever get to be President of the National Association of Evangelicals?

Maybe that last remark was too unkind. I gather belief in demons may be a regular part of Pentecostalism and that Haggard appears to be a Pentecostalist in addition to being Evangelical. I'd like to show Pentecostalism respect without having to grant much credit to belief in demons. I'd be happy if their are any Pentecostalists in our group that can enlighten us on this aspect of Pentecostalism.

In post #144 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=19714&postcount=144) on page 8 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1488&page=8), tdogg replied, on 02-06-2007:

Finally, regarding the questions of Pentecostals and belief in demons - as I was raised in a Pentecostal environment and have Pentecostal relatives, I can tell you demon belief is alive and well in that sect. Pentecostals are comprised of about 4 or 5 different sects that have similar foundational beliefs but differing minute detail beliefs. Those I am familiar with (mainly of the Assemblies of God sect), belief in demons, and that belief goes anywhere from me personally being controlled by the devil and his demons as indicated in my being a lesbian in a relationship with another woman, to every single possible bad thing that can happen is a result of demonism (exampled, even the flue is caused by influence of a demon). So, for one to show they are truly saved and devout Pentecostal believers, you better not even catch the flu.

The speakers I've heard on this, including various relatives, really truly belief in the demon thing. Apparently they do not believe 'their' Jesus or their 'God' can save anyone from being controlled by these horrible sinful creatures. Therefore, they must always be on their toes, walking on eggshells and keeping track of their Christian cohorts, lest they or their loved ones come into contact with a person's demon(s) and they 'catch' what that particular demon is all about.

So far, it seems that most of the Christians in Soulforce do not believe in demons, which is what I would have expected. Is that true?

[Lydia]

Do what you will with this story....

Has anyone here had experiences involving angels, demons, or other spirits?

I still don't know what it was, but I did have a strange experience when I was about 7 years old.

My family was having a rough year. Money was tight and my two younger brothers had recently developed health problems that, while not life-threatening, did rack up medical bills that my parents had no way of paying off.

It was the middle of the night. I walked out of my bedroom and down the hall to use the washroom. When I exited the washroom I noticed something standing at the other end of the hallway, just at the mouth of our living room. It looked like a wolf, but much larger than any wolf I had seen before or since.

It was standing at the end of the hallway. It's head was pointing towards the window in the living room, it's fur was bristled, and I could hear (or feel?) a low growl rumbling in the back of it's throat.

Needless to say, I was terrified. Too terrified to go back to my own bed. I ended up sleeping in my parents' room that night. When I woke up, it was gone. But over the next year or so things did slowly improve for us. An extended family member loaned my parents the money to pay off the medical bills, my mom was offered a series of college scholarships that paid nearly all of her first few years of nursing school, and my father was able to get a slightly better paying job that helped to make our finances less shaky in the meantime.

Part of me thinks that it was just the nightmare of a kid who was living in a house full of stress. Except that most dreams tend to fade with time. This "dream" hasn't. If I close my eyes, I can still see every inch of that thing. And 16 years after the fact it still scares me a little. I still don't know if it was protecting my family or if something else was preventing it from hurting us.

[Lydia]

What GLBT-friendly Christians believe about Satan, demons, angels, etc.

I believe that there is a spirit-world. There's God, but in my opinion there are also other....things out there.

I don't know what I think about the devil. Sometimes I think it's a personification of the worst of humanity, sometimes I don't.

I do believe, however, that it would be very foolish to ascribe every evil thing out there to "the devil." Humans are neither inherently good nor inherently evil., IMO. We're as capable of loving acts as we are of violent ones.

If there is a devil, I think it works mostly through the acts of humans. More specifically, I think it uses emotions like fear or hate to draw out the worst in us.

And I highly doubt it carries around pitchfork. ;)

[Joe Allen]

I believe in the existence of "The Accuser" (that's "Ha Satan" in Hebrew). "Ha Satan" as a position title does no appear in the Bible until the book of Job. The Hebrew noun "satan" appears quite a few times before the book of Job; but, it has to do with human beings being the accusers.

I believe that demons are Ha Satan's angels who were also created by God. When Lucifer, aka Ha Satan, rebelled against God, and was kicked out of Heaven, 1/3 of the angels went with him.

I do know that the devil, aka Satan, exists because I have rebuked him in the Name of Jesus and he talked back to me.

I do believe that angels exist and while I have never personally seen one; I have met Holy Spirit filled people who have seen angels. But, they did not know they were angels at first. Contrary to Christian Othodoxy theological tradition, angels do not have wings. Everytime the word "angel" appears in the Bible, wings are never mentioned. Cherubs are God's creatures who have two wings and they are divine warrior beings. Some folks have seen Cherubs because they would not have recognized a representive of God who didn't have wings. Angels with wings are a pagan mythology creation.

Oh, I have felt the presence of angels at different times. What that was an external feeling, I have felt the strong presence of the Holy Spirit on the inside, too.

[BronzDragon]

I still don't know what it was, but I did have a strange experience when I was about 7 years old. ...

» Thom says: ☛ Personally, think about this. A Dog is really a wolf dressed in civilized clothing. Yeah, the only differnce between the two is how they look, no matter how far they have drifted from the original design.

Any ways, this is what I am thinking on the subject. Your Pucca (a traditional name for a fairy dog or wolf) was facing outward, away from your family. We cultivated Wolves to be predators protecting us from predators. That you saw this fairy beast, and conditions began to improve is telling me much.

[Diane Vera]

I do know that the devil, aka Satan, exists because I have rebuked him in the Name of Jesus and he talked back to me.

What sort of thing did he say back to you? And how do you know that it was indeed Satan, rather than a part of your own mind?

I'm not asking you to prove it to me, which obviously you can't. I'm just wondering your basis for deciding.

[BruceChris]

Right after signing up, you've been posting a LOT. Some very thoughtful posts, too. You seem to have elicited quite a response from Lydia, too. (Yeah, I know, she has the right to post as much, or as little as she wishes)

I happen to believe that hu/man kind is more than capable of creating all of the pain and suffering in the world, aside from that caused by natural processes. Wo/man's ignorance, stupidity, and insensitivity, greed, fear, and denial can more than account for it, as far as I'm concerned. I do have to point out that a large part of what my background is, comes from the "Course in Miracles".

I believe that God is both He and She, I have no need for Satan, but in all fairness Satan, if existing, could be He and/or She.

Also, given that if God is perfect Love, then on the judgment day, Satan could just throw in the towel, say "Oh, Hell, game over, I'll accept Christ too", and be saved, along with the rest of us.

I know, that idea would utterly horrify many Conservative Christians (CC's), but then again, I'm sure that what many very boring and very ordinary people do in bed would probably horrify most of them.

I just finished "Religion Gone Bad", and I do not recall any specific mention of Satan's influence on the Religious Right (RR). Far too many people just desperately need something Absolute and Infallable to believe in. In this world of ever increasing change, and rate of change, there can be ever more fear, as more and more things that we have "Always known", are no longer true.

If you want something to read on that subject, I recommend Spong's "Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism"

Hoping to read more of you, Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[bryanf]

I believe that God is both He and She, I have no need for Satan, but in all fairness Satan, if existing, could be He and/or She.

Also, given that if God is perfect Love, then on the judgment day, Satan could just throw in the towel, say "Oh, Hell, game over, I'll accept Christ too", and be saved, along with the rest of us.

The object of love here is what is important. Even if God is perfect Love, it does not necessitate that if there is a Devil or demons that they would love Him and make Him the object of their love. The issue here is the object of first love. The traditional view advocates that the Devil has a high view of himself above that of God. In short he loves himself more than God. This is what would be the basis of his trouble. We may say that God loves us so much that he allows us to make our own decision. That might be what is going on here. And the lastly redemption seems to be a human offering that spills over into creation; it is possible yet generally not viewed that demons will not be restored to their intended purpose in the final restoration/resurrection. In short we might could say the saving works of Christ may have not been meant for the demonic.

And in regards to the thread of this question. I have no problem whether there are or are not entities known as demons or even angels. I tend to believe though that they do exist.

[Diane Vera]

To those Christians here who do believe in a Devil and/or demons:

What effect, if any, do you feel that this belief has on your life? Does it have any effect on how you go about making moral decisons? Does it have any effect on how you view the world in general? Do you consider it an important belief, and, if so, in what way is it important?

As I mentioned earlier, in the thread Who Thinks A Peace Sign Is Satanic? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1632) in the "National and World News/Issues" sub-forum.
On page 2 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1632&page=2), novaseeker wrote, in post #22 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=17845&postcount=22), on 01-09-2007:

The question for me is: "is it helpful to think like that (i.e., constantly on the look-out for Satan)?"

I think it isn't, because instead of encouraging the person be awake to reality and constantly looking for opportunities to be loving and life-giving, it instead encourages people to be tentative, suspicious, and judgmental, constantly trying to discern whether something is "of Satan" or not. Generally, it results in a remarkably different approach to daily life and one which, in my own very personal opinion, is not particularly Christian because far from encouraging us to move beyond ourselves and love freely and extravagantly, it instead focuses on the need to keep oneself pure and holy so as to ensure one's own salvation. How far removed this is from the Jesus Christ we meet in the Gospels, who actively sought to sully his hands with the riff-raff of his day, instead of seeking to seal himself off from it to maintain his purity.

I would be interested in comments on the above from those here who do believe in a Devil or demons.

[bryanf]

To those Christians here who do believe in a Devil and/or demons:

What effect, if any, do you feel that this belief has on your life?

It reminds me that I am not a creature solely dependent upon myself. That I interact with other parts of nature.

In short its just another outside force to stimulate my thoughts and actions

Does it have any effect on how you go about making moral decisons?
If morals are something that is innately known and/or truly exist a part from us, then these entities only affect us in so much as how to respond to morals. Thus in their living they either encourage us or discourage us by action and/or presence to live by these moral standards.

If morals are something that is developed whether it be socially or otherwise; then these entities are placing input into the great consciousness of creation. Thus making moral decisions are relative by the interaction between and within all of creation. Whether it be known or unknown.

Personally I still opt in the belief that there are morals that exist a part from us and are not developed. So I actually take the first view of things.




Does it have any effect on how you view the world in general?

In truth yes. It reminds me that this world is more than what I can see of it. For the good and the bad. This carries over to how I look at others and all of creation.


Do you consider it an important belief, and, if so, in what way is it important?
Good question. I am not sure.

If you do or do not believe in it, well it still radically changes how you live and believe. We can have beliefs that impact us to a small degree. But this belief will directly affect the methods and praxis of how we go about living in a large degree. In short it is core element of the hermeneutics of life. So let us ask then question, "How shall I live".

[Lydia]

<b>What effect, if any, do you feel that this belief has on your life?</b>

Very little. It's something I rarely think about. I'm not afraid of the devil or of demons - I believe that God is much more powerful than any demon and that s/he will protect me from any spirit that wanted to harm me.

<b>Does it have any effect on how you go about making moral decisons?</b>

No.

<b>Does it have any effect on how you view the world in general?</b>

It reminds me that we are not alone, that there is a spirit world out there that is every bit as "real" as the physical realm. It reminds me that the next world will be very different than this one, and that in the end God will redeem everyone and everything for his/her Glory.

Maybe even the devil will be redeemed in the end, as someone else said earlier? :)


<b>Do you consider it an important belief, and, if so, in what way is it important?</b>

No. It certainly isn't something I'd ever fight over with anyone. Life is too short for that.

[Diane Vera]

It reminds me that I am not a creature solely dependent upon myself. That I interact with other parts of nature.

...

It reminds me that this world is more than what I can see of it.

There are plenty of other things, besides belief in a Devil or demons, that could remind you of the above. What effects do the belief in a Devil and/or demons, in particular, have on your life?

This carries over to how I look at others and all of creation.

In what specific ways?

If you do or do not believe in it, well it still radically changes how you live and believe. We can have beliefs that impact us to a small degree. But this belief will directly affect the methods and praxis of how we go about living in a large degree.

In what specific ways does it affect the ways you live and believe? In what specific ways does it affect your methods and praxis? Could you give some examples?

[andrewlittle]

I am fascinated with this thread, so far. I am fighting back the urge to (metaphorically) cut and hinge Vera's scull, so I can peek inside at the workings of her mind. I'd like to do that with a great many people whose writing and questioning borders on the brilliant but, of course, what little self-control I possess prevents me from doing so.

I have been tempted to post but, as has been evident, I've been too busy thus far getting my knickers in a wad over other issues which have been far too trivial to break away from to get into something as meaty as this subject. Since I'm almost done unwadding, I am contemplating the questions and responses that this discussion raises.

For now, I'd just like to say: Nicely done. Good conversation. Keep it up.

See you soon, hopefully.

[bryanf]

There are plenty of other things, besides belief in a Devil or demons, that could remind you of the above. What effects do the belief in a Devil and/or demons, in particular, have on your life? In what specific ways?
Well first off I don't believe I am possessed or anything. Or atleast hope not. *lol*.

Anyhow if they do exist, I generally accept the assumption that my spirit or even myself as a whole may respond to them whether I be conscious of it or not.

Mainly I wrote the first response to say that there are things in nature that affect us; whether mentally, physically, and/or spiritually. I have no problem if there is something else to add to that field of things. I hope that answers your question there.


In what specific ways does it affect the ways you live and believe? In what specific ways does it affect your methods and praxis? Could you give some examples?

How might I live...
In working mental health for a number of years, I came across a few cases in which I had thoughts come across in my head that this may be more going on in these cases. Do know that I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist so I am not qualified to make medical assumptions. However my field for training in ministry did make me speculate sometimes if some of these cases actually may have had some spiritual causes. So I often would pray and fast for the people that I worked with. One might say it was coincidence that a number of them would significantly improve during times of prayer and fasting for there deliverance from whatever may cause their disorder (whether it be chemical or others, I never specified but asked God that if it be one or the other or both for Him to have mercy upon them); but I do believe it may have been a God thing in many of their cases. I am reminded of one family I worked with as a community support worker. They asked me to come by during my offtime to begin praying for one of their children who was an individual with autism. He is such a sweet boy but quite often went into fits of rage significantly hurting others. So I would come by in my off time and pray gently over him. I would always ask God to have mercy upon us and him. If that there was anything afflicting him or causing him grief in this life whether it be a spiritual or physical oppression to have mercy upon him and remove it. And I always thanked God that this child was a child preciously and dearly loved by him. Well in about the 2nd week while praying for him he began to speak a few words. What amazing about this is that the family has no memory of him ever speaking before. He always had difficulties with the American Sign Language that I would try to teach him before. Now here he is after prayer beginning to speak. As time went on over the months that I worked with him, he would become ever more peaceable particularly after periods of prayer and their was much improvent. By the time I left he had developed a vocabulary of 84 words; though mostly verbs and nouns. Anyhow the reason I am including this story is from where I had prayed for him and included a prayer for deliverance from spiritual oppression that in time he eventually had significant improvement. And in honest his family true believes that prayer was the cause of his improvement with hard work on all those involved.

So in how I think and act, I make allowances that there might be something more than I am seeing going on in these events. I love my Lord God and know that he is in control. I ask him if there is anything that is contra to him, whether it be a spiritual entity or other, that it shall be done away with.

And finally I would say there have been a few instances in which I have encountered people in a religious setting that acted or believed they were possessed or oppressed by something demonic. After much intercessary prayer they would be quenched. And quite often they would be improved.

[bryanf]

The object of love here is what is important. Even if God is perfect Love, it does not necessitate that if there is a Devil or demons that they would love Him and make Him the object of their love. The issue here is the object of first love. The traditional view advocates that the Devil has a high view of himself above that of God. In short he loves himself more than God. This is what would be the basis of his trouble. We may say that God loves us so much that he allows us to make our own decision. That might be what is going on here. And the lastly redemption seems to be a human offering that spills over into creation; it is possible yet generally not viewed that demons will not be restored to their intended purpose in the final restoration/resurrection. In short we might could say the saving works of Christ may have not been meant for the demonic.

And in regards to the thread of this question. I have no problem whether there are or are not entities known as demons or even angels. I tend to believe though that they do exist.

One mini-note. I forgot to say there were some in the early church who held a view that eventually even the demonic would be restored to the goodness. If I remember right, I think Saint Ireneaus is in this camp of believing in the restoration of all things.

Anyhow I just wanted to be fair. ;o)

[Diane Vera]

In working mental health for a number of years, I came across a few cases in which I had thoughts come across in my head that this may be more going on in these cases. Do know that I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist so I am not qualified to make medical assumptions. However my field for training in ministry did make me speculate sometimes if some of these cases actually may have had some spiritual causes.

What led you to believe this about these people?

And finally I would say there have been a few instances in which I have encountered people in a religious setting that acted or believed they were possessed or oppressed by something demonic.

How did these people act?

[bryanf]

What led you to believe this about these people?
Its weird but yet kind of hard to say. Sometimes you would just get this feeling in the pit of your soul that somewhat was not right. I think that was the most common thing that would happen. And then I would begin privately praying that to the Lord that if there was something there have mercy on them but that whatever also maybe there condition to please have mercy upon them.

Other times it could include just some general weird stuff that would happen around them.

With each of these individuals I never knew or not whether they were or were not. Just sometimes I had this gut instinct of something saying that something was not right. So I would simply in the end pray to God if there was something not right please have mercy upon the individual and remove or correct whatever is not right.



How did these people act?
As each of us are different, so is everyone else.

[Diane Vera]

Other times it could include just some general weird stuff that would happen around them.

I'd be interested to hear more specifics if you feel inclined to share them.

But what I'd be even more interested to hear is how your belief in a Devil affects your perception of the everyday world, apart from your dealings with specific people whom you perceive as being troubled by a demonic influence. Does it in any way affect, for example, how you go about making moral decisions?

[bryanf]

But what I'd be even more interested to hear is how your belief in a Devil affects your perception of the everyday world, apart from your dealings with specific people whom you perceive as being troubled by a demonic influence. Does it in any way affect, for example, how you go about making moral decisions?

Sometimes in the inward banter of my head I will ask the question, could this might be a temptation of sin or something inspired by the demonic. I do believe that sometimes we maybe encouraged to sin or do things not so good from encouragement from the demonic. I don't blame most of my actions on the dmeonic. In truth I am the only one to blame. however by believing they exist and some may even tempt, I try to filter my thoughts. Now here is the thing if they don't exist, this is just allowing a new filter in my head to process things in making a moral decision. So either or, the filter is a good thing because it provides me another avenue to consider things out by.

[Daniel]

Diane-

Now that I've read through this thread I think I have an answer for you- though I'm not sure that I can offer anything substantive in terms of 'experiences' per se. Yes- as a meditator- I've had a number of whoppers- but these have not involved angels or demons. However, they seemed plenty 'real' at the time.

That said, I remember vividly - when I was in the AG church- people who were prayed for because it was decided that they had demons in them- and witnessed the sweating, the crying out, the agony and fear in the room. (On the other side of the continuum, I saw people slain in the spirit.) It was also common to encounter the thinking - which still exists I imagine- that gay people were possessed of demons. And I remember men crying at the altar call to be delivered of the demon of homosexuality. Such weeping I have not heard since. The sound of a soul being rent in two- inconsolable- beyond all life- seeing only death and pain.

Such is the nature of fear.

So do I believe in demons? Not as an independent reality. Though my sense of things is undoubtedly influenced by the study of Buddhism which does not posit independent beings called 'God' or the 'Devil'. Instead, Buddhist thinking posits angels and demons, gods and monsters, as emanations of the mind, 'beings' ultimately encountered in the Bardo after death (see The Tibetan Book of the Dead). For them, embracing the wrathful deities is part and parcel of becoming enlightened.

As someone who was terrified of the dark, I have found practical wisdom in such teachings.

Regarding 'beings':

I have, upon opening my eyes after a deep meditation, found myself looking into the face of Christ which hangs in the air about a foot in front of mine- as if through the wrong end of a telescope. It's always a surprise. Does the face seem 'real'? For two seconds or so...yes. Then if fades away as my attention becomes focused on the outer world. What do I do? I merely say hi to that face and let it go at that, remembering the words of a Bodhisvatta:

"If you see the Buddha on the Road....kill him!"

What I take from this admonition is this: wrapping one's life around an experience...or trying to replicate an experence....can halt the very thing the experience is meant to engender. For myself, this has meant finding a path between what seems like a thing and the Real Thing....which...in Buddhistic terms.....may be 'no-thing' at all.

[Diane Vera]

Sometimes in the inward banter of my head I will ask the question, could this might be a temptation of sin or something inspired by the demonic. I do believe that sometimes we maybe encouraged to sin or do things not so good from encouragement from the demonic. I don't blame most of my actions on the dmeonic. In truth I am the only one to blame. however by believing they exist and some may even tempt, I try to filter my thoughts. Now here is the thing if they don't exist, this is just allowing a new filter in my head to process things in making a moral decision. So either or, the filter is a good thing because it provides me another avenue to consider things out by.

If this isn't too personal to answer comfortably, what sorts of things tend to ge filtered out by that particular filter that wouldn't get filtered out otherwise?

And is it always a good thing? I would think that, in at least some cases, it could prolong a gay Christian's agony over believing that one's sexual orientation is wrong. Also, more generally, it seems to me that it might make a Christian more afraid to question traditional beliefs, out of fear that one's questions are of the Devil.

[Blossom]

In working mental health for a number of years, I came across a few cases in which I had thoughts come across in my head that this may be more going on in these cases...

...So I often would pray and fast for the people that I worked with. One might say it was coincidence that a number of them would significantly improve during times of prayer and fasting for there deliverance from whatever may cause their disorder (whether it be chemical or others, I never specified but asked God that if it be one or the other or both for Him to have mercy upon them); but I do believe it may have been a God thing in many of their cases. I am reminded of one family I worked with as a community support worker. They asked me to come by during my offtime to begin praying for one of their children who was an individual with autism. He is such a sweet boy but quite often went into fits of rage significantly hurting others. So I would come by in my off time and pray gently over him. I would always ask God to have mercy upon us and him. If that there was anything afflicting him or causing him grief in this life whether it be a spiritual or physical oppression to have mercy upon him and remove it. And I always thanked God that this child was a child preciously and dearly loved by him. Well in about the 2nd week while praying for him he began to speak a few words. ...By the time I left he had developed a vocabulary of 84 words; though mostly verbs and nouns. Anyhow the reason I am including this story is from where I had prayed for him and included a prayer for deliverance from spiritual oppression that in time he eventually had significant improvement. And in honest his family true believes that prayer was the cause of his improvement with hard work on all those involved.


Bryan, thanks for sharing that.

Reminds me of:
Mark 9:20-27
And they brought the boy to him. When the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. Jesus asked the father, "How long has this been happening to him?" And he said, "From childhood. It has often cast him into the fire and into the water, to destroy him; but if you are able to do anything, have pity on us and help us."

Jesus said to him, "If you are able!-- All things can be done for the one who believes." Immediately the father of the child cried out, "I believe; help my unbelief!"

When Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You spirit that keeps this boy from speaking and hearing, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again!" After crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse, so that most of them said, "He is dead." But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he was able to stand.

[bryanf]

If this isn't too personal to answer comfortably, what sorts of things tend to ge filtered out by that particular filter that wouldn't get filtered out otherwise?

And is it always a good thing? I would think that, in at least some cases, it could prolong a gay Christian's agony over believing that one's sexual orientation is wrong. Also, more generally, it seems to me that it might make a Christian more afraid to question traditional beliefs, out of fear that one's questions are of the Devil.

For a long time what I believed I knew of morality as taught by Scripture and believed to be revelation of God was a hinge point to measure things by. I still believe in measuring things according to Scripture, I still believe it is canon. However I have learned to be interactive with it and understand there is a living Spirit (God) who often works behind it to interact with us.

Anyhow when I would lust or have thoughts that might lead me to sin, I would filter it out through these set of values. If something was particularly strong, I would begin to ask God if this was simply my sin nature or was something tempting me. Then I would pray to ask for mercy from God and deliverance. As we all now see the issue of being gay did not go away. Actually the Evangelical subculture mindset which I was working from assisted in my reading of Scripture to continue a persecution of myself into living a half-life. Anyhow my lens (so to speak) have changed and I read scripture a tad differently. Which is alright. Anyhow alright I hope that answers your question.

[RainbowL'elly]

i'm a strange sort of christian- there's a lot i just don't believe in when it comes to the 'traditions' of various denominations and biblical interpretations- one of those things is the devil as a supreme wickedness.

humans conjure up some pretty sadistic things on their own- just look at the 'saw' movies- not that the writers are going to go do what they write...but there have been people in this world who have done that kind of thing...these are the people we call sociopaths and psychopaths...definately not 'right in the head'.

i do believe in lucifer morningstar as a real being, however, but not as a wicked one- he did something stupid, like we all do, and ended up with a shitty deal for it- he went to hell to rule there. i tend to think of lucifer as that voice that asks us why we believe what we do and asks us to challenge the authority over us when we don't agree with it- he is not an evil being, but an intellectual being who doesn't accept 'because they said so' as a good enough answer for anything.

it's hard to explain what i think of lucifer- he is an instigator, but not a bad guy- he doesn't want people to end up making the same mistake he did, but he doesn't like people to just follow blindly either.

it's interesting, but in that light, he seems to be a lot like jesus.

i don't believe in demons. i don't quite know about traditional feathery-winged angels either... i do believe in sprit guides, unseen faerie gentry, ghosties, and a general over-arching spiritual bind for all things that are. the idea that there are absolute evils and absolute goods just seem too black and white...why should anything be so cut and dry? if it is truly 'as above, so below', who is to say that those in the ether are either pure or wicked when humankind is definately not?

i am starting to discover i am a goddess christian and it is a very interesting path to find myself on. my concepts of lucifer are continually evolving as i wander. my experiences with the otherworldly vary and i do not mind making those connections, but i do have to say that it is not always a benevolent experience- i do not, however, believe in demons.

[Diane Vera]

i do believe in lucifer morningstar as a real being, however, but not as a wicked one- he did something stupid, like we all do, and ended up with a shitty deal for it- he went to hell to rule there. i tend to think of lucifer as that voice that asks us why we believe what we do and asks us to challenge the authority over us when we don't agree with it- he is not an evil being, but an intellectual being who doesn't accept 'because they said so' as a good enough answer for anything.

it's hard to explain what i think of lucifer- he is an instigator, but not a bad guy- he doesn't want people to end up making the same mistake he did, but he doesn't like people to just follow blindly either.

it's interesting, but in that light, he seems to be a lot like jesus.

Historically, the name "Lucifer" has referred to more than one being. (See the online Catholic Encyclopedia article on Lucifer (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm). See also What about Lucifer? (http://www.theisticsatanism.com/CoAz/belief/FAQ-CoAz.html#Lucifer) on the Church of Azazel (http://www.theisticsatanism.com/CoAz/) site.)

Anyhow, it's interesting to meet a Christian who perceives Lucifer more-or-less the same way I do, at least in terms of how He relates to humans. (I don't believe in the "fallen angel" idea.)

[Diane Vera]

For a long time what I believed I knew of morality as taught by Scripture and believed to be revelation of God was a hinge point to measure things by. I still believe in measuring things according to Scripture, I still believe it is canon. However I have learned to be interactive with it and understand there is a living Spirit (God) who often works behind it to interact with us.

Anyhow when I would lust or have thoughts that might lead me to sin, I would filter it out through these set of values. If something was particularly strong, I would begin to ask God if this was simply my sin nature or was something tempting me. Then I would pray to ask for mercy from God and deliverance. As we all now see the issue of being gay did not go away. Actually the Evangelical subculture mindset which I was working from assisted in my reading of Scripture to continue a persecution of myself into living a half-life. Anyhow my lens (so to speak) have changed and I read scripture a tad differently. Which is alright. Anyhow alright I hope that answers your question.

Not quite. You wrote: "Actually the Evangelical subculture mindset which I was working from assisted in my reading of Scripture to continue a persecution of myself into living a half-life." What I'm wondering is whether your belief in a Devil, in particular, was one of the factors that led you to continue a persecution of yourself (along with other aspects of the Evangelical subculture and how it encouraged you to interpret the Bible).

[RainbowL'elly]

Historically, the name "Lucifer" has referred to more than one being. (See the online Catholic Encyclopedia article on Lucifer. See also What about Lucifer? on the Church of Azazel site.)

Anyhow, it's interesting to meet a Christian who perceives Lucifer more-or-less the same way I do, at least in terms of how He relates to humans. (I don't believe in the "fallen angel" idea.)

intriguing- i'll have to look up those articles when i have more time to sit and read. i've always used the name in the singular and never heard it used plurally- i'll definately check it out.

it's great to find somebody to relate to- when it comes to my spiritual beliefs, that's something that is a bit rare ;).

[bryanf]

Not quite. You wrote: "Actually the Evangelical subculture mindset which I was working from assisted in my reading of Scripture to continue a persecution of myself into living a half-life." What I'm wondering is whether your belief in a Devil, in particular, was one of the factors that led you to continue a persecution of yourself (along with other aspects of the Evangelical subculture and how it encouraged you to interpret the Bible).

For a very long time I inflicted myself with undo suffering because I would wonder whether my attraction to other men was biological, spiritual temptation, psychological problem, or my own corrupted desires. Feeling called to minister to others I placed probably more undo weight upon the spiritual temptation side of it, particularly that there might have been a demonic entity trying to corrupt me. I prayed hard, fasted, came to a point of committing physical violence upon myself to the point that I was contemplating suicide because the urges did not go away. I questioned myself so dearly. I loved God with all my heart, but I began to question to whether I was trully a Christian since this would not go away. Though it was through the spiritual disciplines that I came to be substained by God and to know his love even more during this time. I however had difficulties accept it because I believed, whether I acknowledged it consciously or not, that I was outside of grace for who I am. I have since then come to know that is not true.

Persecution from the Evangelical subculture was reinforced by the communities general anti-lgbt slurs. I am still heavily involved in the Evangelical subculture and it is a blessed day not ot hear some sort of slur. This expressed, and fairly accepted, hatred encouraged me to hate myself. I wanted to be accepted and love by others. They were/are my family and friends. Who I truly am would cause me to be exorcised from the community. That will most likely happen when I do come out. I have lost a few friends already by revealing who I really am. So yeah basically the fear of losing my love ones was a very big factor in causing me to be afraid and hate myself.

The develope dhatred for my side of sexual desires caused me to become somewhat split. I would become so tired to spend so much of my energies fighting against myself.

But yeah I basically reasoned it was one of two things:
#1 either a demonic temptation to destroy me
#2 that Dr. Dobson was right about a lack of a father figure growing up and that sexual abuse would promote homosexuality in a child.

So I blamed my own mind and an outside force. I contemplated the ex-gay ministries for a long time. But after looking at their tactics did I come to discern that there tactics are nearly identical to the theory and praxis of torture.

Alright anyhow I hope that answers your question some more. But you are welcome to keep asking questions if you want. Or if you would like we can try to do this during a phone interview if that would help.

B.Ryan.F.
real name: Ben

[WillySF]

Just some random thoughts on the subject of the Devil, diabolical agents and the forces of good and evil.

My first thought is, "gee, mankind sure has some mighty fanciful notions about invisible things". It's all rather medieval wouldn't you say? I think the reason these ideas stick around is that they are really pretty intriguing. I mean, let's be honest here – if we were going to make a play on stage and there was a list of characters, who want's to play the devil? Show of hands… I thought so! Yeah, the devil is sexy! He's smart. He puts meaning into the words independent agent. Isn't there a part in all of us that wants to emulate him? I sure do.

Anybody know where this concept came from? I'll give you a hint: Zoroastrianism.
a monotheistic pre-Islamic religion of ancient Persia founded by Zoroaster in the 6th century bc.
According to the teachings of Zoroaster, the supreme god, named Ahura Mazda, created twin spirits, one of which chose truth and light, the other untruth and darkness. Later writings present a more dualistic cosmology in which the struggle is between Ahura Mazda (Ormazd) and the evil spirit Ahriman. The scriptures of Zoroastrianism are the Zend-Avesta. The language survives in isolated areas of Iran and in India, where its followers are known as Parsees.
Well, alright… I gave it away. So sue me.

Plenty of its tenets have been adapted within Christianity during the ages. Not to mention there were a number of demonic cults in Europe during the middle ages that took ahold of the public consciousness.

It really has little to do with traditional Jewish or Christian thought however. The "satan" means "adversary". In Hebrew scripture Satan is simply doing a job for God by testing God's children (mankind). If you were to think of life as a game of sorts, you should probably have a rule book (the Torah), but you also need an opponent. How else could you be forced to grow? You can't play by yourself. Well, you can… but it's idiotic.

You know what's really scary? I'll tell you what I think, it's what one man is capable of doing to another man – especially under the guise of divine dictate! Now that's some scary, well you know what. Kind of puts that silly little red man with the tail and horns in his place now, doesn't it?

If you believe in a God that created the Universe and resides within it, then nothing can truly exist outside of that universe that is not part of God. That includes good and evil, yin and yang, light and darkness, space, time and matter. It's all God. We're God. Ooh…now there's a concept! Mind blowing stuff – and you don't need a hallucinogenic substance to trip on that. Maybe evil exists so we can know what we are not? To quote my hero, George Carlin, "these are the thoughts that keep me from being a more productive member of society".

[BronzDragon]

I do believe that sometimes we maybe encouraged to sin or do things not so good from encouragement from the demonic.

Thom says: ☛ Within the Hindu Cultural complex is a sect of practitioners dedicated to Siva and Kali, called the Aghori. Basically, they are Graspers (Aghoram, same as found in SatyaGraha) of experiences. They ride a delicate balance between experiencing the taboos of Hindu culture, garnering experiences from it on one hand, and not devouring or clinging to the results on the other. They will walk among the dead, eat what Hindus’ generally consider unclean, and seek to accomplish, again, what Hindus’ generally consider shameful. They don’t do it because it is taboo or shameful and are looking for an adolescent thrill (You know what I am talking about). They do it because the experience itself will give them insight into their natures as humans, individuals, and gods (remember, Hindu, all are manifestations of god).

Question, what sin is it you are trying to avoid? (No, don’t need an answer, just guiding a thought, here.) Why are you trying to avoid it? The bible? is written, edited, and interpreted by fallible and often uninspired humans, sometimes no wiser than yourself. We know of words that scholars misinterpret badly and for bad reasons, άρσενοκοīται, for example.

So, are you trying to avoid a sin because you think it is a sin? Or because someone else does? And do you think that God is so severe a judge that he will do anything more than ask you if you liked the results of your action? Then help you find ways of acting better next time?

The daimon that is guiding you may simply be trying to get you to grow, through experience, or getting you to face your ethics, cultivate what is truly good, and cull what is truly worthless but weighing you down.

[Diane Vera]

As I mentioned in a post on page 3 of the thread GCN & Their Current Discussion of Soulforce (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2574), a couple of folks at GCN voiced the opinion that gay self-hatred is to be blamed on the Devil. Another person disagreed, noting a parallel to fundies who blame homosexuality on the Devil.

I am naturally curious to know what various kinds of Christians here at Soulforce think of this.

[Diane Vera]

In the thread Worldwide religious trends (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2573), Steven E. Webster wrote:

My brother is a United Methodist missionary in Africa. He is a progressive politically and theologically (although I'm sure most folks here would say he "sounds like" an evangelical). His main focus is helping hungry people improve their agricultural practices so they can feed themselves better. He is an agriculturalist first, but he is also a preacher.

He has seen first hand the ugly side of the African belief in witchcraft. One of the family members of one of his parishoners was stoned to death for allegedly being a witch--this is a common occurrence in Africa. My brother preached a sermon against this practice and required the whole congregation to confess their complicity in this man's death. It was pretty dramatic.

On the other hand we have many more western missionaries who encourage the belief in evil spirits and witchcraft. The right wing of my own denomination (United Methodist) in this country harbors people who believe in evil spirits and witchcraft (in the bad sense of evil forces allied with the "Christian" Satan).

Why are you putting the word "Christian" in quotes here? Do you feel that their belief differs in any significant way from traditional Christian beliefs about Satan? If so, how? Or do you just consider these beliefs to be incompatible with Christianity's central themes, however much they may unfortunately be a part of Christian tradition?

These people believe that homosexuality is caused by demonic possession, for instance.

How common is that last-mentioned belief among conservative Christians, in your experience?

Although I do not mean to attack all Pentecostalism, a lot of these nutty folks seem to be part of the Pentecostal movement. (Seems to me that belief in works of the Holy Spirit should not automatically lead to irrational belief in and fear and panic of all sorts of evil spirits.)

The aspect of the witchcraft belief which is endemic in Africa which my brother is confronting is the way this belief is used and manipulated to scapegoat "enemies." I'm not saying belief in spirits is inherently wrong--but it is wrong when it becomes the basis for irrational and violent attacks on perceived "enemies."

It seems to me that these beliefs cease to be Christian when they lead to fear, panic, irrationality and violent attack on perceived enemies.

Steven Webster

What are your own beliefs, if any, regarding "evil spirits"?

Also, do you feel that it's possible to have belief in an all-evil Devil without at least some degree of fear, panic, and irrationality, or at least paranoia? If so, how?

[NathanATX]

I don't believe in "the Devil" as an entity. I think the devil is simply the personification of intentional wrong-doing... the aggressive, rebellious, "I know this is unloving, unkind, negative, a violation of my commitments, irresponsible and I'm going to do it anyway" way of being.

"The Devil made me do it" is the world's oldest cop-out.

We are tempted by our own laziness, insecurity, greed, selfishness, etc.
As a Christian, I use the imagery of Jesus' death and resurrection and believe that we "die to ourselves" when we consciously choose to ignore those temptations... regardless of the cost. And then we are resurrected into a new awareness of how good and blessed we truly are and our strength to resist tempation continues to grow.

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

This is a reply to some questions in Diane's recent post.

I've heard "heresy" defined as taking a standard Christian belief too far. The highly dualistic belief that Satan is an evil power (an evil God) in direct competition with God can be such a heresy.

I would say that I'm an agnostic when it comes to the existence of evil spirits. They may or may not exist, I don't know and I don't much care. It seems to me that the "proper" Christian attitude towards evil spirits should be that they have no real power. As long as we align ourselves with God we have no need to fear such beings. To succumb to that fear by engaging in "panics" like that exemplified in the Salem witch-trials and more recent similar events is a failure of faith in God. (And for agnostics, a failure of faith in reason.)

Some of the early church "fathers" (Augustine, for one, I think) argued that evil had no real being. Since God created creation as good, evil is simply a negation of God's good creation, or it's a deficiency of some kind. If we compare good and evil to light and darkness, evil (darkness) has no real being, but is simply the absence of light. (There is the scripture from John's Gospel: "the light shone in the darkness and the darkness could not overcome it.")

I'm also agnostic about the Devil (don't believe in him, don't know if he exists, don't care). I like the view of one of the church fathers (Origen, I think) that God will eventually "save" everyone including Satan. Satan is no different than any other created being--he has "gone wrong," but is capable of being made right with God eventually, in this view.

Belief in evil spirits seems to me to be just part and parcel of the rise in irrationalism in general. Some people want to reject the enlightenment and reason and they open the door to all sorts of irrational beliefs. We are being taken over by our own fears and dark obsessions.

How common is this belief in spirits? I gather that Ted Haggard, disgraced former president of the National Association of Evangelicals, and his congregation had a very lively belief in evil spirits.

Steven Webster

[kara speltz]

Friends,

This is a reply to some questions in Diane's recent post.

I've heard "heresy" defined as taking a standard Christian belief too far. The highly dualistic belief that Satan is an evil power (an evil God) in direct competition with God can be such a heresy.

I would say that I'm an agnostic when it comes to the existence of evil spirits. They may or may not exist, I don't know and I don't much care. It seems to me that the "proper" Christian attitude towards evil spirits should be that they have no real power. As long as we align ourselves with God we have no need to fear such beings. To succumb to that fear by engaging in "panics" like that exemplified in the Salem witch-trials and more recent similar events is a failure of faith in God. (And for agnostics, a failure of faith in reason.)

Some of the early church "fathers" (Augustine, for one, I think) argued that evil had no real being. Since God created creation as good, evil is simply a negation of God's good creation, or it's a deficiency of some kind. If we compare good and evil to light and darkness, evil (darkness) has no real being, but is simply the absence of light. (There is the scripture from John's Gospel: "the light shone in the darkness and the darkness could not overcome it.")

I'm also agnostic about the Devil (don't believe in him, don't know if he exists, don't care). I like the view of one of the church fathers (Origen, I think) that God will eventually "save" everyone including Satan. Satan is no different than any other created being--he has "gone wrong," but is capable of being made right with God eventually, in this view.

Belief in evil spirits seems to me to be just part and parcel of the rise in irrationalism in general. Some people want to reject the enlightenment and reason and they open the door to all sorts of irrational beliefs. We are being taken over by our own fears and dark obsessions.

How common is this belief in spirits? I gather that Ted Haggard, disgraced former president of the National Association of Evangelicals, and his congregation had a very lively belief in evil spirits.

Steven Webster

Dear Steven: As is so often the case, I absolutely agree with you on everything you've said here. The closest I came to believing in evil was when a family member was struggling with crack and watching the changes that he went thru, it felt like such an evil thing. I remember saying if there is such a thing as the devil, crack is the devil's tool.

It seems to me that the devil, or satan or whatever evil, is all part of the "fear" theory that I find so many fundamentalists cling to, and to me base their entire philosophy on. They scream at us that we're going to hell, (another thing I'm agnostic about) as if the only reason to change would be out of fear. Interestingly enough, a pastor of mine once pointed out that the thing Jesus repeated the most, wasn't about love, but "fear not."

To me if fear is the motive, for anything we do, than it is seriously questionable and not Spirit led.

Kara

[Diane Vera]

In this Soulforce press release (http://www.soulforce.org/article/249), October 2003, Kara Speltz is quoted as saying:

“The Catholic Church is conducting an unholy Crusade against gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people and their families, both inside and outside the church,” said life-long Catholic Kara Speltz, chair of the Soulforce Catholic Denomination Team. “Not only is the church imposing its superstitious and unscientific attitudes against GLBT people in an attempt to deny us our civil rights, but they are actually kicking us out of the church for exercising our rights.”

I find it interesting that she characterized the Catholic hierarchy's attitudes toward GLBT people as "superstitious."

It seems to me that anyone who believes strongly in an all-evil Devil (as the Catholic hierarchy still officially does) is likely to have a superstitious approach to morality in general. By that I mean that, if you see "good" vs. "evil" in terms of "God" vs. the "Devil," then morality isn't something you can evaluate based on down-to-Earth criteria such as the consequences of your actions. Rather, morality becomes a matter of blind obedience to "God" and avoiding what are perceived as snares of the Devil. Thus, among Christians, I would expect there to be a very strong positive correlation between Devil-belief and persistent homophobia.

[Diane Vera]

I've heard "heresy" defined as taking a standard Christian belief too far. The highly dualistic belief that Satan is an evil power (an evil God) in direct competition with God can be such a heresy.

At least in theory, even the most Devil-obsessed fundies are not Zoroastrian-style dualists. They believe that their God has deliberately allowed Satan to become "God of this world" (or "God of this age"), supposedly as a consequence of human sin.

How common is this belief in spirits? I gather that Ted Haggard, disgraced former president of the National Association of Evangelicals, and his congregation had a very lively belief in evil spirits.

A strong belief in evil spirits is pretty much ubiquitous in the fundamentalist/evangelical world, as far as I can tell.

What I was asking you earlier was how common, in your experience, is the belief that homosexuality in particular is caused by demons?

[Diane Vera]

I don't believe in "the Devil" as an entity. I think the devil is simply the personification of intentional wrong-doing... the aggressive, rebellious, "I know this is unloving, unkind, negative, a violation of my commitments, irresponsible and I'm going to do it anyway" way of being.

To those Christians who strongly believe in the Devil as an entity, the Devil is associated with much more than just the sorts of things you would classify as "intentional wrong-doing." As far as I can tell, many such Christians think of the Devil as the ruler of just about everything outside their own little box.

Personally I'm inclined to believe that people with such a belief system are scapegoating a large part of the spirit world, just as they are also scapegoating a large part of "the world" on the physical plane as well.

[BrentRichards]

What I was asking you earlier was how common, in your experience, is the belief that homosexuality in particular is caused by demons?

My two cents: In my experience of the evangelical community (of which I still consider myself a part) belief in the devil and evil spirits as literal entities is pretty commonplace. However, in much of the evangelical world (the part that is not fundamentalist or pentacostal) that belief doesn't have a whole lot of practical outgrowth ... most aren't prepared to give these entities "credit" for specific problems/evils. Those that talk too much about the devil et al. tend to be looked at a bit askance (in my experience). That being said, I have NEVER actually spoken to anyone who seriously believed that homosexuality is caused by demonic possession. I've read some people who think that, and I know the opinion is out there, but I do NOT think it is common in the mainstream evangelical world.

Whether Biblical teachings on Satan and evil spirits are intended as literal or figurative, I have to give my favorite theological answer: Uh, I dunno.

I tend not to give evil entities much focus in my spirituality, on the principle captured by one wag's take on the Lord's prayer: "Lead us not into temptation, we can find it ourselves!"

[Diane Vera]

My two cents: In my experience of the evangelical community (of which I still consider myself a part) belief in the devil and evil spirits as literal entities is pretty commonplace. However, in much of the evangelical world (the part that is not fundamentalist or pentacostal) that belief doesn't have a whole lot of practical outgrowth ... most aren't prepared to give these entities "credit" for specific problems/evils. Those that talk too much about the devil et al. tend to be looked at a bit askance (in my experience).

Hopefully this means that the evangelical world has learned a thing or two from the experience of the "Satanic Ritual Abuse" scare of the 1980's and early 1990's (http://www.theisticsatanism.com/asp/intro.html), plus the exposure of outright frauds such as Mike Warnke (http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss098/warnke_index.htm)?

That being said, I have NEVER actually spoken to anyone who seriously believed that homosexuality is caused by demonic possession. I've read some people who think that, and I know the opinion is out there, but I do NOT think it is common in the mainstream evangelical world.

I wouldn't expect that particular belief to be common anywhere except perhaps among the more extreme fundamentalists and Pentecostals. I'm wondering if it is common even there.

Anyhow, apart from that particular belief, have you noticed any differences in attitudes toward gays between the fundamentalists and Pentecostals on one hand, and more mainstream evangelical Christians on the other?

As I mentioned in post #39 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=25375&postcount=39) on page 2 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2311&page=2) of this thread (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2311), it seems to me that homophobia and a strong belief in an all-evil Devil are both part of the same superstitious approach to morality, even if one does not directly attribute homosexuality itself to demons. Thus I would expect to see a strong correlation between the two. Have you observed such a correlation?

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

Diane has asked a couple of times in this thread just how common is it that some Christians take seriously a belief in devils and demons and attribute homosexuality to demons. I really can't answer that--I don't hang out with Christians who seriously believe in a real Devil and actual evil spirits, just as extremely few Christians I know speak in tongues--but as you know that practice is fairly common in certain segments of Christianity--notably among Pentecostals.

Coincidentally, Exgaywatch.com is carrying a story today of a ex-ex-gay lesbian who describes the attempt to heal her of possession by "the demon of homosexuality. Here's the link http://www.glamour.com/news/articles/2007/04/curegay?currentPage=1.

Here's the pertinent quote from the article:
“Then he put his hand on my head and I felt myself falling backwards. They’re all praying that the demon of homosexuality will leave me. I’m crying on the floor, having this religious experience and being told God loves me.”
She looks down, wincing, and messes with her medium-length brown hair.
“I don’t want to trivialize this,” she says. “It meant a lot to me at the time.”

I don't know if anyone can tell you, Diane, how common such experiences as the above are--but I've heard of enough instances to think it's not uncommon, particularly among charismatics and pentecostals. It should be noted that charsimatics and pentecostals are also found in mainline Protestant and Roman Catholic denominations. As a movement, pentecostalism is one of the fastest growing in Christianity. As I understand it, the breakaway Episcopalian congregations in Virginia are charismatic.

I don't know if this is of any help to you, Diane. I'm not quite sure what you are driving at.

Steven Webster

[BrentRichards]

Hopefully this means that the evangelical world has learned a thing or two from the experience of the "Satanic Ritual Abuse" scare of the 1980's and early 1990's (http://www.theisticsatanism.com/asp/intro.html), plus the exposure of outright frauds such as Mike Warnke (http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss098/warnke_index.htm)?

I honestly don't know if we've learned, or if that particular belief has just fallen out of fashion (gasp! an evangelical said that?)


Anyhow, apart from that particular belief, have you noticed any differences in attitudes toward gays between the fundamentalists and Pentecostals on one hand, and more mainstream evangelical Christians on the other?

For all practical purposes, not much difference. If anything, there might be a difference in whether folks believe a self-affirming GLBT person can really be saved (evangelicals more likely to say yes, fundies no) ... but both generally have a similar view of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, and probably are equally homophobic in practice ... my own opinion, of course.

As I mentioned in post #39 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=25375&postcount=39) on page 2 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2311&page=2) of this thread (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2311), it seems to me that homophobia and a strong belief in an all-evil Devil are both part of the same superstitious approach to morality, even if one does not directly attribute homosexuality itself to demons. Thus I would expect to see a strong correlation between the two. Have you observed such a correlation?

I have not ... it may be that folks in the two camps are homophobic for different reasons, but they're both (equally?) homophobic.

Tangent/clarification: I should say of the general topic that I DO in fact believe in the existence of genuine evil. It is just that whether that genuine evil is attached to a literal, personal entity called Satan or not is a matter of some indifference to my faith.

[Diane Vera]

it may be that folks in the two camps are homophobic for different reasons, but they're both (equally?) homophobic.

What are the differences (or possible differences) in reasons?

Reasons matter, it seems to me. Some kinds of reasons are harder to let go of than others.

Tangent/clarification: I should say of the general topic that I DO in fact believe in the existence of genuine evil. It is just that whether that genuine evil is attached to a literal, personal entity called Satan or not is a matter of some indifference to my faith.

How do you define "evil"?

Thanks for your replies to my questions.

Thanks also to Stephen E. Webster.

[Diane Vera]

To Rick336, pnggrad79, rainbowcat, and other Christians who have posted in the thread Why Focus on the Family is of the Devil (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=807):

Do you believe in a Devil? Or, when agreeing with the sentiment that "Focus on the Family is of the Devil," are you just using the phrase "of the Devil" metaphorically?

(The author of the article discussed in that thread (http://www.elroy.net/ehr/focus.html) is no longer Christian. Most likely he does not still believe in a Devil, I would guess, although I haven't yet asked. See About the Author (http://elroy.net/ehr/aboutelroy.html).)

[Rick336]

Do you believe in a Devil? Or, when agreeing with the sentiment that "Focus on the Family is of the Devil," are you just using the phrase "of the Devil" metaphorically?

No I don't believe in the devil. The heading, "Why Focus on the Family is of the Devil" is from Brian Elroy McKinley. His words, not mine.

But I do think Focus on the Family is emotionally harming young LGBT kids. So I do agree with McKinley's article.

Rick

[Diane Vera]

But I do think Focus on the Family is emotionally harming young LGBT kids.

With that I certainly agree too.

However, with only rare exceptions, Christians who believe in a Devil tend also to be homophobic. Therefore, it is unlikely that a Christian who believes in the Devil would say that Focus on the Family is of the Devil.

[Diane Vera]

Anyhow, apart from that particular belief, have you noticed any differences in attitudes toward gays between the fundamentalists and Pentecostals on one hand, and more mainstream evangelical Christians on the other?

For all practical purposes, not much difference. If anything, there might be a difference in whether folks believe a self-affirming GLBT person can really be saved (evangelicals more likely to say yes, fundies no) ... but both generally have a similar view of the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, and probably are equally homophobic in practice ... my own opinion, of course.

As I mentioned in post #39 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=25375&postcount=39) on page 2 (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2311&page=2) of this thread (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2311), it seems to me that homophobia and a strong belief in an all-evil Devil are both part of the same superstitious approach to morality, even if one does not directly attribute homosexuality itself to demons. Thus I would expect to see a strong correlation between the two. Have you observed such a correlation?

I have not ... it may be that folks in the two camps are homophobic for different reasons, but they're both (equally?) homophobic.

But, as you said, most evangelicals do believe in a Devil, even if that belief doesn't find much practical application amongst mainstream evangelicals.

Thus, it does seem to me that, among Christians, there is a strong correlation between homophobia and belief in a Devil in general (not just fundy-style belief in a Devil). Would you not agree?

Of course, the correlation is not 100%. For example, there seem to be plenty of gay Christians over at GCN who believe in a Devil. But nevertheless the correlation seems to me to be pretty strong on the whole.

The main underlying reason for the correlation may be simply a traditionalist mindset, given that both homophobia and belief in a Devil are traditional among Christians. Fundamentalist/traditionalist adherents of other religions, e.g. Hinduism, tend to be homophobic too, even though those religions do not believe in a Devil.

Nevertheless it does seem to me, also, that belief in a Devil would inherently tend to reinforce homophobia, as part of an authoritarian and generally irrational view of the nature of "evil."