Non-violence?

[askyourself_9]

First and foremost this is NOT an anti-gay propaganda spam instead I hope that this post promotes discussion and some critical thinking...

Within the concept of "non-violence" there is an often over looked issue of respect...while several organization ranging from fair-trade, PETA, as well as LGBT rights organzations promote the use of "non-violence" often times the concept of respect is not considered. I bring this up in reference to the methods used in the Equality Rides. With stops primarily geared towards private Christian school often times without an invitation, it would seem that there is a disconnect between theory and practice. Aren't most "gay bashers" projecting their beliefs onto others who either have no desire to hear or disagree in the form of "God hates fags" and other horrific slogans. It would seem that while the subject matter is different the methods are the same. The fact that the Equality Ride goes to colleges with or without an invitation would seem that whether or not an institution wants to hear it or not Soulforce is projecting ITS beliefs without respect or concern for the people who it is trying to communicate with. I'm sure one defense to this statement will be that "These institutions do not explicitly tell Equality Ride not to come." While this may be true one must take into account the fact that Soulforce is a LGBT rights organization, an institution cannot say no without commiting political suicide. So in essence, an institutions hands are tied and Soulforce is exploiting that with little or no consideration otherwise. While still "non-violent" it would seem that Soulforce has progressed into "sophisticated subversion" in the same vein as the people who are so close minded to LGBT rights...

Again, for those who will flag this as a "hate post" you are grossly mistaken...I wish you all luck and God's grace in the challenges ahead of us all...Much love and respect....

askyourself_9

[kara speltz]

First and foremost this is NOT an anti-gay propaganda spam instead I hope that this post promotes discussion and some critical thinking...

Within the concept of "non-violence" there is an often over looked issue of respect...while several organization ranging from fair-trade, PETA, as well as LGBT rights organzations promote the use of "non-violence" often times the concept of respect is not considered. I bring this up in reference to the methods used in the Equality Rides. With stops primarily geared towards private Christian school often times without an invitation, it would seem that there is a disconnect between theory and practice. Aren't most "gay bashers" projecting their beliefs onto others who either have no desire to hear or disagree in the form of "God hates fags" and other horrific slogans. It would seem that while the subject matter is different the methods are the same. The fact that the Equality Ride goes to colleges with or without an invitation would seem that whether or not an institution wants to hear it or not Soulforce is projecting ITS beliefs without respect or concern for the people who it is trying to communicate with. I'm sure one defense to this statement will be that "These institutions do not explicitly tell Equality Ride not to come." While this may be true one must take into account the fact that Soulforce is a LGBT rights organization, an institution cannot say no without commiting political suicide. So in essence, an institutions hands are tied and Soulforce is exploiting that with little or no consideration otherwise. While still "non-violent" it would seem that Soulforce has progressed into "sophisticated subversion" in the same vein as the people who are so close minded to LGBT rights...

Again, for those who will flag this as a "hate post" you are grossly mistaken...I wish you all luck and God's grace in the challenges ahead of us all...Much love and respect....

askyourself_9

So, if you think nonviolence requires a person to be invited to challenge anothers beliefs, then Gandhi and King, by your definition, were not nonviolent?

And the KKK should be allowed to burn crosses whenever and wherever they please?

Ignorance, lies and discrimination are NOT to be respected! You can respect some one and disagree and that is what the Equality Ride is about. These schools are using their ignorance and their power to discriminate. To stand by and not challenge this ignorance would be to be complicit in our own oppression. Gandhi said it is better to confront injustice with violence than to sit idly by and ignore it.

Kara

[Joe Brummer]

I think you bring some good arguments to the table, but perhaps two things are missing from this as far as understanding Nonviolence (minus the hyphen). Pet pev of mine, sorry. Non-violence is the absence of violence. Nonviolence is a movement and philosophy that fuel a way of life.

First, I must say that nonviolence has steps and principles. That include asking questions, gather information. The next steps include educating all that are invovled about "all" sides of the issue, not just the side you are on. Lastly, their is direct action.

The Equality Rides are about those steps. It is about educating people about both sides of the issue, not just "our" side of the issue. The Equality Riders are not just educating people about the gay and lesbian side of the issue, but also educating people about the school's side of the issue. In Nonviolence it is important to educate all sides so that the goal (reconciliation) becomes a win-win situation, not a win-lose situation.

Secondly, while the Equality Riders may or may not be invited doesn't mean much in direct action or nonviolence. The idea of nonviolent direct action is to create tension that brings the issue to a place it can be discussed. In this case the injustice of how gay students are treated. The schools have options of treating these students better and they have not done so.

The riders are not pushing any belief on anyone. They are trying to bring the situation and its affects on others to the table where they can be addressed. It is to bring the problem into the light of social justice.

Put your same thoughts to the Freedom Rides of
1961. Do you think the riders where "invited?" They were not.

Do you think they were pushing only their side?

Ask yourself the questions, do these rides create the creative tension needed to bring this injustice to the light of social change? Do these riders look for the end goal of a win-win vs. a win-lose?

[Joe Brummer]

So, if you think nonviolence requires a person to be invited to challenge anothers beliefs, then Gandhi and King, by your definition, were not nonviolent?

And the KKK should be allowed to burn crosses whenever and wherever they please?

Ignorance, lies and discrimination are NOT to be respected! You can respect some one and disagree and that is what the Equality Ride is about. These schools are using their ignorance and their power to discriminate. To stand by and not challenge this ignorance would be to be complicit in our own oppression. Gandhi said it is better to confront injustice with violence than to sit idly by and ignore it.

Kara

Kara, while I agree with most of what you have said. I believe we have to be careful about making assumptions, or passing judgement on others. Making evaluations of what others believe and deeming it ignorance or lies is what they do to us. Can we solve this by doing it back? We have to respect what others believe even if we think it is lies, ignorance or discrimination.

When the Bus Boycotts happen in Montgomery, the goal respected that whites might feel uncomfortable sitting with blacks. So, the MIA asked not for desgregation of the busses, but a more dignified way for blacks to get on and off the bus. It was completely about respect for others beliefs.

If we are to go into this thinking that anyone shouldn't be respected then we lose as we start. ALL beliefs must be respected. All feelings must be respected. Such a demand that someone's religious beliefs must not be respected because you have deemed them ignorant, lies or discrimination is not better than what they are doing to us. Nonviolence is most certainly about pointing out the lies, but respecting that some may believe them. To not respect what someone believes even if you deem it ignorant is violence. And we know well that violence cannot solve this. Love can.


What we may view as ignorance, lies and discrimination may actually be truely religous beliefs fo someone else. We have to respect that some may hold those beliefs close to their hearts and to not respect them is to close thier ears from the get go. We should and need to have respect for all beliefs. It is then we can change hearts and minds.

We as a nonviolent responders need to give people the information that corrects misinformation about us. Demanding someone change their mind because we call it ignorant will not change their mind or their heart, but offering the truth with love may. I find your responce pretty demanding of others to change their mind. That, in my opionion is what they do to us. Demand we see it their way.

We cannot respond to demand that we are wrong with the demand that they are wrong. That is not nonviolence.

We have to call for a win-win, not a we win, they lose.....When we point out to them that they are causing others to suffer at their hand, without evaluation, insult of name calling then we have acted nonviolently. It has to be about the suffering, not our judgement of what is or is not ignorant.

[Daniel]

With stops primarily geared towards private Christian school often times without an invitation, it would seem that there is a disconnect between theory and practice. Aren't most "gay bashers" projecting their beliefs onto others who either have no desire to hear or disagree in the form of "God hates fags" and other horrific slogans. It would seem that while the subject matter is different the methods are the same.

Hi askyourself.

I've highlighted the passages I'd like to address above.

A little reading on the history of the King led civil rights movement in the Unites States during the 60's as well as the movement towards Independence that Gandhi fathered in India shows that addressing oppression isn't something one does by invitation. If that were so, there would be no civil rights period. Simply put, your assertion that there is a disconnect between theory and practice is not based on historical fact or an undertanding of the principles of nonviolence.

The 'method'- as you call it- is most certainly not the same. Oppression is, in an of itself, an act of violence. Nonviolence is something else entirely.

I encourage you to familiarize yourself with the resources about nonviolence- principles and practice - on this site.

Peace to you.

[kara speltz]

Kara, while I agree with most of what you have said. I believe we have to be careful about making assumptions, or passing judgement on others. Making evaluations of what others believe and deeming it ignorance or lies is what they do to us. Can we solve this by doing it back? We have to respect what others believe even if we think it is lies, ignorance or discrimination.

When the Bus Boycotts happen in Montgomery, the goal respected that whites might feel uncomfortable sitting with blacks. So, the MIA asked not for desgregation of the busses, but a more dignified way for blacks to get on and off the bus. It was completely about respect for others beliefs.

If we are to go into this thinking that anyone shouldn't be respected then we lose as we start. ALL beliefs must be respected?. All feelings must be respected. Such a demand that someone's religious beliefs must not be respected because you have deemed them ignorant, lies or discrimination is not better than what they are doing to us. Nonviolence is most certainly about pointing out the lies, but respecting that some may believe them. To not respect what someone believes even if you deem it ignorant is violence. And we know well that violence cannot solve this. Love can.


What we may view as ignorance, lies and discrimination may actually be truely religous beliefs fo someone else. We have to respect that some may hold those beliefs close to their hearts and to not respect them is to close thier ears from the get go. We should and need to have respect for all beliefs. It is then we can change hearts and minds.

We as a nonviolent responders need to give people the information that corrects misinformation about us. Demanding someone change their mind because we call it ignorant will not change their mind or their heart, but offering the truth with love may. I find your responce pretty demanding of others to change their mind. That, in my opionion is what they do to us. Demand we see it their way.

We cannot respond to demand that we are wrong with the demand that they are wrong. That is not nonviolence.

We have to call for a win-win, not a we win, they lose.....

While I agree that we have to call for a win-win situation, I cannot believe anyone would suggest that the beliefs of the KKK should be respected. Yes even KKKrs are children of God with some truth, but not their beliefs around white superiority. These religious beliefs are superstitions that have caused serious damage, including the loss of life. I do not believe I have to respect their superstitous beliefs.

The way we change their minds is for us to stand proudly, reflecting God's love even in the face of their hatred.
Kara

[Joe Brummer]

While I agree that we have to call for a win-win situation, I cannot believe anyone would suggest that the beliefs of the KKK should be respected. Yes even KKKrs are children of God with some truth, but not their beliefs around white superiority. These religious beliefs are superstitions that have caused serious damage, including the loss of life. I do not believe I have to respect their superstitous beliefs.

The way we change their minds is for us to stand proudly, reflecting God's love even in the face of their hatred.
Kara


If you cannot respect the beliefs of your adversary then you are going against your own belief of nonviolence.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. If you want a world where all beliefs are respected then......be the change. Nonviolence is not easy. It is work.


As soon as you have decided that someone's beliefs shouldn't be respected you lose the right to ask for yours to be respected. I never said you have to agreee with the beliefs, but you must find it in yourself to respect it. It takes work. It takes looking at their beliefs and seeing the suffering behind them, knowing where those beliefs come from, respecting that they come from wherever they do.

Gandhi himself taught that we should not insult our oppressor and to disrespect your oppresor 's beliefs in to insult them.

I know it is hard, but we must learn to respect each other regardless of beliefs. We cannot go round demanding others respect our beliefs if we are not willing to be that change in the world.

[kara speltz]

If you cannot respect the beliefs of your adversary then you are going against your own belief of nonviolence.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. If you want a world where all beliefs are respected then......be the change. Nonviolence is not easy. It is work.


As soon as you have decided that someone's beliefs shouldn't be respected you lose the right to ask for yours to be respected. I never said you have to agreee with the beliefs, but you must find it in yourself to respect it. It takes work. It takes looking at their beliefs and seeing the suffering behind them, knowing where those beliefs come from, respecting that they come from wherever they do.

Gandhi himself taught that we should not insult our oppressor and to disrespect your oppresor 's beliefs in to insult them.

I know it is hard, but we must learn to respect each other regardless of beliefs. We cannot go round demanding others respect our beliefs if we are not willing to be that change in the world.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't believe that I have to respect beliefs that cause physical pain to another human being. Again, I'll acknowledge that the person holding these beliefs is a child of God, and that they have the capacity for change, as well as the capacity to teach me something, but I will not equate their hatred of another group of people to my belief that all God's children are equal.

Kara

[Joe Brummer]

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't believe that I have to respect beliefs that cause physical pain to another human being. Again, I'll acknowledge that the person holding these beliefs is a child of God, and that they have the capacity for change, as well as the capacity to teach me something, but I will not equate their hatred of another group of people to my belief that all God's children are equal.

Kara

I am sorry but I will have to use some nonviolent direct action to show you why we should respect others. I pray you can respect that it had to be done.

These are your words. Revisted from your adversary's view. You can then maybe see how this is never going to get us anywhere......


While I agree that we have to call for a win-win situation, I cannot believe anyone would suggest that the beliefs of Soulfice should be respected. Yes even Gays are children of God with some truth, but not their beliefs around civili rights for gays. These religious beliefs are superstitions that have caused serious damage, including the loss of life. I do not believe I have to respect their superstitous beliefs.

The way we change their minds is for us to stand proudly, reflecting God's love even in the face of their hatred.
Kara


Sorry Kara, the way we change their mind is to talk not demand we are right. That is what they are doing. It won't work for us to do it back.

[Joe Brummer]

For the sake of learning I am going to post some of Mel's writings......

Mel Writes:

"Gandhi and King both remind us that before we are ready to take "direct action" against UNTRUTH we must see our adversaries in a whole new way as well. They insist that we will hate our adversaries until we understand and believe these basic truths about them. When Gandhi says "love your enemy" this Credo is the beginning of what he means."


Love is about respect. If we are ever to win this through love and not violence we must learn to respect our adversary's beliefs. We learn where they are coming from. Learn that our adversary may have insight on the truth that we do not have. That takes respect. I know it is hard, but it is the bottom line of this nonviolent action. It is loving, respecting and meeting your adversary on terms that say we both can take our truths and make a new truth. It cannot be that we agree to disagree, that implies that someone looses and in nonviolence we don't want someone to loose, we want to find reconciliation. The beloved community is the goal not losing, not winning, but a beloved community.

[askyourself_9]

First off, thank you everyone for the well thought out comments and the discussion...

Two things...First, I made a remark in regards to the technical methods used in the form of leveraging the fact that Soulforce is a LGBT rights group and as a result the organization, knowing that they cannot be stopped due to the "political suicide" factor of the institution, still visits the institution. Message, beliefs, and sexual orientation aside do you believe that this method is the most effective way of spreading the LGBT rights message? I believe that this method from anyone or any organization (not just LGBT right groups but any organization) results in a negative appearance for them. Just want to hear your thought on that...

Second,

If any individual students wishes not to listen, it is her/his right. The institution does not have the right to limit a student's access to information. I think it will be the students who will finally effect a change in school policies.

When is the line drawn that the students are no longer listening or the institution is no longer listening...What if the students have listened and wish not to change the school policies? Will the goal of an organization shift from information to conversion? The example that comes to mind (not specifically related to subject but at least one we can all relate to) is that if the gospel is shared with an individual and they choose to listen but not except, do we then continue brow beating them because of their choice or do we leave them be and let things happen through other avenues. Well that's all I have now...

Thanks again for all of the comments...much love and respect...

[Joe Brummer]

Message, beliefs, and sexual orientation aside do you believe that this method is the most effective way of spreading the LGBT rights message? I believe that this method from anyone or any organization (not just LGBT right groups but any organization) results in a negative appearance for them. Just want to hear your thought on that...

Yes, I do believe this is one way of getting the message out there. It is one way of inviting others to listen, inviting others to learn and also leaving the door open for us to learn. This action invited the creative tension needed to make change. I have said many times that nonviolence is not easy. It sometimes means standing your ground against the odds.

I believe when people see that students are being kicked from school just for being gay, and not allowed to transfer their credits, that maybe a new rule can come where students can leave the school with honor and credit to go to a school more in line with their beliefs but not lose what they have accomplished.

[Daniel]

First off, thank you everyone for the well thought out comments and the discussion...

Two things...First, I made a remark in regards to the technical methods used in the form of leveraging the fact that Soulforce is a LGBT rights group and as a result the organization, knowing that they cannot be stopped due to the "political suicide" factor of the institution, still visits the institution. Message, beliefs, and sexual orientation aside do you believe that this method is the most effective way of spreading the LGBT rights message? I believe that this method from anyone or any organization (not just LGBT right groups but any organization) results in a negative appearance for them.

Hi AYS,

My reading of your words obove suggests to me that you may view Soulforce- the organization- as an entity who's only objective is to stay alive through publicity and actions like the Eride. This kind of view, unfortunately, does not address the concerns of either party.

To be sure, it is discomforting for any person or organization to address their concerns to another person or organziation when the encounter amounts to an 'confrontation'. That is something we can all agree on. But I would hope you would also agree that change, no matter the area or concern, is never easy or free of challenge. In fact, I would posit that very few are able to maintain an open and embracing posture with ease- that takes a great deal of discipline. It is all too easy to be lulled into thinking that the way we have been thinking and acting about any given situation or concern is THE way to continue doing business. However, life itself has a way of informing us of the merit of our actions. It seems that Loving actions beget more loving actions. SF's nonviolent presence is simply a call to love- and loving action. That's what nonviolence is all about. It's not about being right.


When is the line drawn that the students are no longer listening or the institution is no longer listening...What if the students have listened and wish not to change the school policies? Will the goal of an organization shift from information to conversion? The example that comes to mind (not specifically related to subject but at least one we can all relate to) is that if the gospel is shared with an individual and they choose to listen but not except, do we then continue brow beating them because of their choice or do we leave them be and let things happen through other avenues. Well that's all I have now...

If you've studied nonviolence, you will have encountered the word 'relentless' in connection with it. Nonviolence is not about brow-beating. that would be violence. It is about offering witness to the suffering (in this case) of gay people everywhere and the effect of religious oppression; that many are not aware of this oppression or its effect only means that this message must be brought again and again until the causes for it are addressed.

[scott snedeker]

Dear askyourself_9,

I wanted to express my appreciation for your patience, You are addressing something that makes you uncomfortable but clearly demonstrate respect for yourself in your part of the dialogue. My optimism grows for a kinder world because of the example you show.

The world is changing, A new era is coming where people like me who were born gay will not suffer the same psychological child abuse inflicted upon me by homophobia. They will not suffer being labelled a worthless deviant because of sexual attraction to the same sex.

In a changing world those who can interact with the agents of this change like yourself will adapt and see the good in it. Those who cannot, sadly,will have an ever-growing difficulty living in it. The "political suicide" of prohibiting the Soulforce Equality Riders' visit is an example of this change in our world and the increasing difficulty for those who cannot change with it.

I believe unconditional love of self leads to the same toward others. Unconditional love easily overcomes fear or discomfort with one's own nature or the nature of others. The curious thing is that unconditional love of self and others is not only the core of my Druidic Pagan spirituality, but also the message of Jesus Christ. Same message-----Different paths. Those who are in strong connection see the same in others........I, for example can feel it in your words.......And with this feeling comes appreciation!:)