When Religion Goes Bad

[Jamie McDaniel]

I just read a news story about the protests going on in Europe. And you know, maybe my being here in America, I can't fully understand this developing situation. In our struggle for GLBT equality in America, we deal a lot with Christianity gone bad. But I have to believe that religion gone bad --be it Judaism gone bad, Christianity gone bad, or Islam gone bad -- is now perhaps the number one threat to our survival as a species.

Can anyone provide more insight on this?

http://www.soulforce.org/images/thosewhoinsultislam.jpg

[SolInvictus]

Yikes! Like you, I'm not of the root of this problem. It may be tied to the recent riots in Paris & rumors of racial profiling / prevention of woman to wear veils @ work. Regardless, religion is supposed to be about Love; not hate and violence. Thats a sad situation.

[Vanessa White]

I also heard a story on National Public Radio this week that in Denmark, there is a growing number of Islamic persons who reside there. They are being told that they will need to give up wearing of the body scarf and covering of the face, and learn the primary language of the country (is that Dutch? I am not sure) and a government official from Denmark interviewed more or less said, "If you want to live here, you need to do as we do", but then expressed it as concern for the oppression of women as an afterthought. I found it pretty offensive and I am not Islamic. I can understand why this raises anger, but anger takes all groups of all peoples in so many dangerous places. Jamie, I think the radio story was yesterday or the day before, and you can hear the stories in the archives at npr.org. Have a good weekend everyone, about to sign off until Monday. Peace.

[SolInvictus]

Hey all,
this link may explain it:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/03/154205

[Jamie McDaniel]

But I have to believe that religion gone bad --be it Judaism gone bad, Christianity gone bad, or Islam gone bad -- is now perhaps the number one threat to our survival as a species.
The above statement might have been a little reactionary of me. When I see photos like that, I have to remember that people of good-will are very much still the majority. I consider myself a very spiritual person who wants to have the religion of Jesus, but I can certainly see why some of our secular friends have a negative view of religion, citing evidence that it causes way too many people to jetison rational thinking and embrace hatred and exclusion.

[NathanATX]

I think that statement is right on the money, Jamie.

I just finished Spong's "A New Christianity for a New World" and he paints a clear picture of how the "hysteria of self consciousness" manifests itself in people. He means that in the sense of realizing one's "self" and being alone in the universe. He said something like religion has developed as a way to calm the terror that such realization can bring people.

What has happened in the last century is that the "hysteria" has been lessened simply by advancing knowledge, especially as people realize that the magic & miracles of our religious stories that were used to explain the unexplainable now are being made known to have happened for scientific & biological reasons... or the miracle stories were literary devices, used to transmit the mystery of faith to other generations...

He said that this diminishing "hysteria" has been a primary reason why mainline traditional Christianity is dying.

The flip side is that there are people who for whatever reason cling to the miracle stories as if they were fact or they haven't been exposed to the knowledge that would set those stories aside. Many of these people are still in the grip of that "hysteria of self-consciousness."

And they are ripe for the picking when it comes to being susceptible to extremist & fundamentalist dogma. And as we all know, extremism is on the rise all over the world in every religion.

It's clearly becoming more and more absurd to be a fundamentalist, but even so fundamentalists are clinging tighter & tighter to their doctrine.

The hidden threat is that if somehow their beliefs can be explained away with knowledge then their understanding of God will dissappear... and that simmering hysteria will boil over, consuming them with the fear of the unkown and the terror of perceived aloneness in the universe.

And nothing could be worse. That hidden terror is the source of homophobia, it is the source of suicide attacks, it is the source of saying "our way is the only way."

Spong calls for the creation of a new Christianity... of a new belief system. If the church is to survive it must find a meaningful expression of faith that speaks to today's world.

He said his idea of God is that God is like the groundwater, the same source of life, love & faith for everyone. Even if we experience & express that faith through different ways, we can still embrace our "sameness" with those from other traditions as we journey into what it means to love God and live with an awareness of God's presence in our lives.

[Jennifer5]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3842331/

look at pictures 6 and 8 .... if you want...

[baraka]

hi! have you seen the actual cartoons that are at the center of this brouhaha? (i've always wanted to use that word) :p

they're pretty tame by (western) editorial cartoon standards, and while some of them are mocking in tone, others are simply line drawings. blasphemy's in the eye of the beholder, i suppose....

there are religious "leaders" (of all religions) who build careers (and fortunes) by rousing the rabble & inciting their followers to rise up & slay the infidel enemy. so i suppose i would make a distinction between false, toxic, hateful religion that pits "us" versus "them" and religion (whatever the doctrine or faith) that truly "re-links" God and Humans in mutual, nurturing love. it's not religion versus non-religion; it's good religion versus bad religion.

too many people are simply lemmings who want/need to be led/manipulated by a charismatic figure making grandiose promises & proclamations. think for yourselves, people! wake up! :eek:

- baraka

[Jamie McDaniel]

too many people are simply lemmings who want/need to be led/manipulated by a charismatic figure making grandiose promises & proclamations.
Hey, NonLemming, if you're reading this, is that why you chose your username?

[Zerbie]

Thank you Jamie, so much, for bringing up this topic. I'll be open with everyone, I have cried about this stuff the past couple days and nights. I have tried to understand anger and hate all my life, and I think I might be now beginning to, I don't know. . .there is always pain at the root of anger and hatred, or so I observe thus far.

Sad. I am one who was raised outside any religious training, nada, zilch, niente, none. The first time religion ever made an impression on me I was 8 or 9, and a 'religious leader' I don't know who, was on TV saying that AIDS (it hadn't actually been named yet, I think) was a gift from God because it was going to exterminate homosexuals. That sentiment became the definition of religion for me as a child. Later through history books I came to view religion as a codification of evil and cruelty. By my early 20s I was, I'll admit it, an extreme anti-Christian bigot. I didn't think anyone could be Christian and capable of love or spirituality. There were positive experiences then in my 20s with Christian individuals, and above all, I credit yogis for teaching me what true Christianity is. They instilled in me a great respect for the religion. Though I still struggle now occasionally when so-called Christians go on hate campaigns, when it becomes difficult for me to not view ALL as being hate-filled. Coming on this board and visiting with you folk un-does that feeling so quickly, and it's part of why I'm here so often. I need you for that.

Now, we observe the same hateful dynamic at work in so-called Islamics. How can acting in anger to hurt your fellow creatures possibly be sacred? Exterminate Europe?? How horrifying!! Whatever it is, the force is the same. The energy is the same. Only the name (Christian, Muslim) has changed. The Lord's love is the same no matter how you name it's manifestation. And so is human hatred.

What I don't understand at all: WHY?? Why this hate? Why is there SO MUCH anger? Why now?

Have I only now learned to see a simmering anger in the world that has always been there? Or is my impression correct that there is much more anger now than there was 20 years ago when I was a child? More than even 10 years ago? Anger is being stirred up to extreme degrees all over the world, for every possible excuse no matter how ridiculously trivial, and everyone is becoming polarized. So now we have a planet full of people, all of whom I would assume want love, happiness, and peace, all of whom feel attacked and hurt by hordes of others, all feeling justified in hating, saying harmful words, attacking, etc. Can anyone address this? Anyone have insights?

How is this mess possible? How can we disentangle ourselves so that we don't make it worse? Is it possible to make it better? Or is it pride to think that we can change such things? Maybe I'm some kind of fool or something for even wondering, but I have been - all day! And it's hurting me inside even now.

[Jennifer5]

I think many people have come to the point of not agreeing, or wanting wanting to agree, or wanting to take over... but they haven't been taught to deal with it peacefully, so they hate and they point-out each other's flaws, to make people agree with what they are saying about the other person/group... people just don't know how to deal with things-- we need our Martin Luther Kings of the world, who would die to make the world a better place, but there are a lot of us who don't want to have to go that far, so it will take longer and it will take more of us... but I really think it can still be done, it will be done, it has to be done... otherwise we won't surivive...the killing, the hate... will bring an end to the world...

"Mankind must bring an end to war, before war brings an end to mankind"

[NonLemming]

Jaime, you are a smart man, yes that is the reason. You also bring up a good topic with this thread. The most common denominator that I can see between different religions "going bad" is their Fundamentalist side. Every world religion has fundamentalist members who seem to be so rigid that they cannot bend their heads around new ideas any longer. That is the point where they fly planes into buildings or harrass families at their private funeral services with chants of "God hates fags" of shoot people in gay bars.

I don't think I'm personally ever supposed to arrive at a point in this life on Earth where I say, OK I get it, that's the way it is, now and forever, and if you disagree, you must be destroyed. That does seem to be the fundamentalist line from what I read and see. If not, please correct me. I would hope that I can keep using this terrific God-given gift of thought until my dying breath.

[Zerbie]

Thank you Jennifer. I really appreciate your presence here and all the kind words you have for us.

[Vanessa White]

Hi Zerbie: I just came on line this morning, and without it sounding too canned, I understand your pain, at least to an extent. I also wonder about the hate in the world, and why it has to be. When I wonder like that, I feel rather childlike, and immature and like such an idealist that will never see love resume in the world. I am not sure if the hatred and anger in this world is more prevalent than when we were children, or we recognize it more, or if it is just more visible than ever. I mean, slavery, the civil rights movement, Nazi Germany, Stonewall- there was plenty of hatred to go around in those times. Knowing that there are others around that are seeking the same answers and trying to defeat hate with love on a regular basis, that is one of the reasons why I am so grateful for these forums. Keep sharing your feelings and fears here.

A quote that I came across recently on Will Smith's newest CD, Lost and Found, and there is a song on there called "Why?" about September 11 and how he will explain it to his kids. One line that he raps in there, that he has such emotion as he raps it, it moves me to tears every time: "Why the F--- Can't love seem to defeat hate". I don't mean any offense to anyone by the one word in there, he bleeps it on the CD, also. Let's all try our best to bring MLK's message to the world with all the peacefulness we have to go with it. :love: :love: :pray: :pray:

[Zerbie]

AN answer that comes to mind is that we must be at peace in ourselves. Think about a time when you feel totally at inward peace, you don't want to hurt anyone, and you would never do so. The more we are at peace inwardly, the less we contribute to the fights, the bitterness, and so on which escalate into all the disasters we observe. If more people were at ease and in peace, then they would not act out in violence. If people had their needs met: safe clean homes, water, food, employment, and a sense that they are loved and valued, there would be so much less of this rage and violence. But many people are struggling on in dreadful conditions, either externally, internally, or both. That produces anger. And anger seeks to perpetuate itself.

[Vortex]

AN answer that comes to mind is that we must be at peace in ourselves. Think about a time when you feel totally at inward peace, you don't want to hurt anyone, and you would never do so. The more we are at peace inwardly, the less we contribute to the fights, the bitterness, and so on which escalate into all the disasters we observe. If more people were at ease and in peace, then they would not act out in violence. If people had their needs met: safe clean homes, water, food, employment, and a sense that they are loved and valued, there would be so much less of this rage and violence. But many people are struggling on in dreadful conditions, either externally, internally, or both. That produces anger. And anger seeks to perpetuate itself.

Your thought reminded me of an old Chinese Proverb.

If there is light in the soul, there will be beauty in the person.
If there is beauty in the person, there will be harmony in the house.
If there is harmony in the house, there will be order in the nation.
If there is order in the nation, there will be peace in the world.

[Vanessa White]

I really don't think that I could have said it better, and it is also how I feel. Love yourself in order to give love to others. Peace, Vanessa:love:

[pnggrad79]

Jamie,
I was as disturbed by that picture as you were. Maybe it is God's way of showing us that religion is not the path He wants us to follow. Religion, in and of itself is what man has done in response to God. It is our faulty attempt to respond to God with our sinful nature, make God the object of our human attempts to contain him and put him in a box. We make God the source of our prejudices and fears and we slap the name of religion on it, as if that is supposed to make it good. I don't care if it is Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. The fundamentalists in every one of those religions pore over the Scriptures and follow every letter of the law, which is precisely what the Pharisees did in Jesus' day and precisely why he said they were whitewashed tombs and a brood of vipers. Fundamentalists of every breed are just the same, they look good on the outside, but inside they are dead, lifeless creatures who don't know the heart of God and would rather make Him a puppet of their own agendas, instead of letting Him transform them into the likeness of Jesus. Christianity, while having many good aspects, has failed miserably to emulate the life of Christ. It has punished people who dared to think outside the box, it has thrown people out that Jesus would have welcomed with open arms, and it throws diatribes at sin, when Jesus himself was made the payment for our sin on the cross. Fundies want to make us and every other nonconformist pay the price for our difference, because they are so empty, and dead inside, it is the fire that keeps them going. Hmm, dead, lifeless, fire- sounds a little like satan to me. Forgive my connections there. Maybe we are on the line, maybe we are next, I don't know. I do know that this is nowhere near what God wants for His church. Thank God, though, that grace abounds where sin abounds. That is the only thing that saves us. :rainbow:

[Zerbie]

PNG hit a few nails square on the head in her post above. :)

Now, I came on here to share an insight that literally "dawned" on me last night. I was in rehearsal singing Salve Regina, not really thinking of anything at all, when it occurred to me why Religion is capable of producing such profound evil. (Religion with a capital R refers to the energetic power that is the source of life, religion with a lower case r will refer to what people create mentally.)

Because Religion is so innately powerful - It is such a powerful energy, the essence of life, and ANYTHING that is powerful will be powerful in whatever direction it's energy is guided. A powerful drug can heal a serious illness or drive a well person to madness and death. A powerful energy like Religion can be a force literally driving us to grow on a daily basis throughout our lives and maintain our awareness and connection to our eternal nature, or if we interfere with it, it can be a source of dreadful fear and judgment. That's when it becomes religion, lower case r, and when the rules are worshipped rather than the Lord of life. That is when it "goes bad" and becomes a bizarre justification for all the most anti-spiritual things people say and do.

[revtj]

I really do think America has failed to try to understand the religious meaning of Islam for its people. I think we bombed them before we tried to understand what is sacred to them and why, and how we could respect that and have dialogue with them.

I would wager that if we had done that, rather than bombing first, the cartoons would not have made as much difference to them.

They see us as infidels who bomb, torture, spray phosphorous on women and children, which we do; and they think it is Islam we hate because for them there is no secular/sacred distinction between the state and religion.

It should be incredible that America of all places would underestimate the meaning and power religion holds in their lives. Unfortunately, we can't turn back now, so we are helping the whole world to regress into caveman (fight or flight) mentality.

I know the neo-cons think I want to offer terrorists therapy and talk it over. It's not the terrorists who need the therapy and talking, it was the current administration in Washington that was/is blinded by christian imperialism. We are the most powerful nation in the world. We have an obligation to respect their religion and try to understand it, even if it cuts into our profit margin.

Why do we act like we don't have christian terrorists in America? What is the KKK? Who shot Harvey Milk? Who killed Matthew Shepherd? Who blew up Federal buildings in Oklahoma? Who called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez? Who argued for the right to continue torturing prisoners? Who signed the McCain Amendment with a caveat invoking unitary executive power?

America needs to repent and get right with God AND Allah!

[SolInvictus]

WOW TJ - you "hit the nail on the head." I agree w/ you.

[pnggrad79]

Amen TJ! :)

[NonLemming]

I really do think America has failed to try to understand the religious meaning of Islam for its people. I think we bombed them before we tried to understand what is sacred to them and why, and how we could respect that and have dialogue with them.

I would wager that if we had done that, rather than bombing first, the cartoons would not have made as much difference to them.

They see us as infidels who bomb, torture, spray phosphorous on women and children, which we do; and they think it is Islam we hate because for them there is no secular/sacred distinction between the state and religion.

It should be incredible that America of all places would underestimate the meaning and power religion holds in their lives. Unfortunately, we can't turn back now, so we are helping the whole world to regress into caveman (fight or flight) mentality.

I know the neo-cons think I want to offer terrorists therapy and talk it over. It's not the terrorists who need the therapy and talking, it was the current administration in Washington that was/is blinded by christian imperialism. We are the most powerful nation in the world. We have an obligation to respect their religion and try to understand it, even if it cuts into our profit margin.

Why do we act like we don't have christian terrorists in America? What is the KKK? Who shot Harvey Milk? Who killed Matthew Shepherd? Who blew up Federal buildings in Oklahoma? Who called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez? Who argued for the right to continue torturing prisoners? Who signed the McCain Amendment with a caveat invoking unitary executive power?

America needs to repent and get right with God AND Allah!


Excellent points, revtj! I think you hit the nail on the head. The publication of pictures showing our hillbilly womenfolk pointing and taunting at naked male Islamists was probably the last straw for them. Abu Grahib was the closest example of "sodomy" that we have in modern times. The fact that this was perpetrated by those representing a "Christian nation" (although that is a great misconception) did nothing for our reputation in the world. We may never fix the problem we caused in our lifetime, but the work needs to begin here at home.

[revtj]

Non (can I call you that, I feel like I know you now?!!!:D ) --

You are so right. This mess will probably not be cleaned up for 25 years, and look how few days it took to get it started! sheez, louise! We who love peace & justice are in for a lot of hard work!

[baraka]

someone said that a sense of humor is a sense of proportion, and i think most of you (some of you?) would agree that the response to these cartoons is WAAAAAYYYY out of proportion to their intent and actual content.

has anyone seen the recent albert brooks movie "looking for comedy in the muslim world"? i haven't, but want to. it took quite a mensch to even attempt such a film in these times, so kudos to albert for doing it. obviously if one does look for comedy in the muslim world, the funny pages are not the place to search.

yet -- there MUST be such things as satire, farce & indeed, ALL forms of comedy in the muslim world. why do we only hear and feel only the rage?

:confused:

[Zerbie]

Baraka poses an interesting question - why do we see anger and rage? Well, I'm abysmally uninformed about Muslim worldview, etc., but perhaps someone else can address whether Muslims, as a group, are being pressured into anger by some fanatical leaders in much the same way that many Christians in America are being pressured to anger by certain 'Christian' leaders. . . .all that stuff about Christians being persecuted and discriminated against for their Christian values. . .are Muslims being told regularly the same sorts of things? They viewed the cartoons as symptomatic of some sort of deep assault on them. The anger level worldwide seems to be increasing, not just among Muslims, but they are being perhaps the most obvious example at this very moment.

[baraka]

it was only a couple of months ago that "paris was burning" (no, not paris hilton) during weeks of fierce riots in predominantly muslim neighborhoods.

at the time, the situation of undertrodden muslim "ghetto" youth seemed somewhat analogous to that of the black community in the u.s. during the '60s. france now has a 5-10% muslim population. the u.s. has black population of around 12%, if i recall.

are there other similarities/comparisons? does this have any bearing on the recent rioting in response to the danish cartoons? what about in countries where islam is the majority religion? is the world's muslim populace "downtrodden"? again, i ask: whence the rage?

[Daniel]

While American's may not understand the meaning of Islam, conservative practitioners of Islam in Iraq seem to have a clear understanding of their religion: how to use one's religion to kill in the name of God.


http://365gay.com/opinion/besen/besen.htm

With the American invasion having created a vacuum of viciousness, the murderous Mullahs have gladly stepped in to fill the void. London activist Peter Tatchell revealed on the web-site Iraqi LGBT, which monitors the condition of gay Iraqis, the extent of the horror for all Iraqi citizens under control of the Ayatollahs:

"Parts of Iraq, including some Baghdad neighborhoods, are now under the de facto control of Taliban-style fundamentalist militias," wrote Tatchell. "They enforce a savage interpretation of Sharia law, summarily executing people for 'crimes' like listening to western pop music, wearing shorts or jeans, drinking alcohol, selling videos, working in a barber's shop, homosexuality, dancing, having a Sunni name, adultery and, in the case of women, not being veiled or walking in the street unaccompanied by a male relative."

Tatchell goes on to report that these zealots are zeroing in on anyone who appears to be gay. He paints a portrait of a nation where homosexuals are routinely blackmailed, hunted like wild game and barbarically raped and riddled with bullets. Even families are sometimes harassed and threatened if they refuse to rat gay family members out of hiding. Here is an excerpt from the Iraqi LGBT website:

"The father of 23 year old Baghdad arts student, Karzan, has been told by militias that his son has been sentenced to death for being gay. If his father refuses to hand over Karzan for execution, the militia has threatened to kill the family one by one. This has already happened to Bashar, 34, an actor. Because his parents refuse to reveal his hiding place, the Badr militia murdered two of his family members in retribution."

http://iraqilgbtuk.blogspot.com/

[Zerbie]

Yes!!! I've been hearing these same stories. . .:'( :'( :'(

It's beyond any ability to cope with. I joined Amnesty International a while ago, just wanting to feel like I at least did *something*, even if as small as signing up for a group.

These stories Daniel, they are the stuff of nightmares. :'( :'( :'(

[Daniel]

Zerbie- The mind goes numb when you read stuff like this. And contrary to announcements made today, things are not getting better in Iraq.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/special_packages/galloway/15453716.htm

In hopes of furthering that debate, this week I asked more than a dozen top Army and Marine Corps generals - active duty and retired, dissidents and administration loyalists - to address what we should do now in Iraq.

All of them agreed that America's strategy and tactics in Iraq have failed, and that President Bush's policy of "staying the course" in Iraq isn't likely to produce anything but more frustration, more and greater problems for the United States in a dangerous world, and more and bloodier surprises for the 135,000 American troops in Iraq.

--------

"The problem thus far, as you know, has been lack of serious planning, poor selection of people in charge ... screwed-up assessments and assumptions, no building of international and regional cooperation, trust in non-credible exiles and too much spin and ad hoc-ery," said retired Marine Gen. Tony Zinni, who formerly headed the U.S. Central Command, with responsibility for 32 nations, including Iraq and Afghanistan.

Bush and company are like a bunch of guys who got lost driving and are too proud to get out and ask for directions. Pure ideological hubris.

I've gone politcial with this post- sorry about that- not my usual avenue of expression- but I believe there is a direct connection between our failed policies and the actions of radical Muslims. We're created more of a mess than existed before. I do not see any good coming out of this. One does need a crystal ball to see where matters are headed.