Gays In The Military

[jmathis]

Hello,

I am writing because I don't know what else to do. My girlfriend who is a sergeant in the army has been confronted on suspicion of being gay. I just found out about this and we have had problems for the last few months and had all but broken up. The pressure she is under is unbelievable. I love this woman with all my heart. I am helpless. Her superior came right out and asked her and said it was rumors from other soldiers. There is no proof. I don't know if that will be the end of it or if it will go further. She is an outstanding soldier. Anyone have any advice for us?

Thanks.

[Daniel]

The Servicemembers Legal Defense Network. I think this organization can help you.

http://www.sldn.org/templates/index.html

Their survival guide- which you can download - is here:

http://www.sldn.org/templates/legalhelp/index.html?section=19

Do you have a support group (friends- church- family) that is looking after your welfare? If not, I encourage you to keep reaching out. That's the only way to build this support. It's really important!

Peace to you.

[u-dog]

jmathis,

I have no expertise to bring to your plight so all I can do is pray for you and your gf. I wish you both all the best.

[u-dog]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070313/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_gays

General Pace thinks homosexuality is immoral and the military shouldn't encourage it by allowing gays to serve.

And all of those 18-25 year old heterosexual guys are virgins, right? :lol: I think he's right. Throughout history, soldiers have been known for their sexual purity and virginal characteristics. Letting all of those randy homos in would change EVERYTHING.

Please... :pray: Give me strength.

[pnggrad79]

Not that this will change anything, but it really disturbs me that this general has just totally dismissed the devotion of thousands of GLBT people in the military. What does he think? I know there is a stereotype of gay people that we sleep with or try to seduce everyone we see, and that is just not true. I know there are gay people out there looking for love just like the rest of us, but to say we are threat to national security because we are homosexual is just wrong. Gay people don't seek to seduce just anyone, we do have our likes and dislikes, just as straight people don't just seduce anyone. It is just a horrible stereotype that if this general ever took the time to get to know gay people, he would see that the vast majority of us are not wanton sex maniacs who will sleep with anyone anytime. We have to work to destroy this myth and create a new thought pattern that we are just like everyone else, we all want love.

[IVAWSGT]

You misunderstood the adultry reference. He was speaking about UCMJ, Uniform Code of Military Justice, which specifically outlaws adultry for straight people. This however is rarely enforced. UCMJ also prohibits oral and anal sex, between everyone, gay or straight. This is never (to my knowledge) enforced unless its a gay service member.

Pace was trying to use his belief of what constitutes immorality as sound reason for being punishable under military standards, which are stricter than civilian standards. He used adultry as a comparison of an immoral act. His logic is fuzzy at best.
I just thought it was dumb to say "adultry is immoral and we punish that" knowing full well its not punished even 50% of the time and using that line of logic (immoral things are punished) when there are other things against UCMJ that are not punished. It does not make logical sense.

People should be asking for aplogies because he was in uniform, on duty and is a descion maker in the military. An apology for what he said would be hollow and based on his being sorry you were offended, not on being sorry for some archaic idea. His personal opinions would be more more personal if he had not said them when acting in an official manner. Had he just spit out the DADT policy it would have ben different, but he went into detail of his feelings. I am glad he said it, its brings up some important points.

On a larger note, those of us who are against this war might get a laugh out of his calling sex acts immoral and being less concerned with the immorality of this war. If it were not for all the dead people it might be funny.

I for one am tired of my sexuality being used to exemplify all things wrong in this world while people still drop cluster bombs on children. It just seems odd to me that even if you are a God fearing Christain (which I was brought up as Catholic then Southern Baptist so I know a thing or two about it) to be more concered with gay people than kids deaths from state sponsored munitions or hunger. Jesus talked about protecting kids way more than he mentioned damning gays (cause he never mentioned gays, maybe he forgot).

Another day, another battle.

[IVAWSGT]

And as far as the girlfriend SGT, get in touch with SLDN and tell your girlfriend not to say anything until she has had spoken with someone from SLDN.
NO ONE IN THE MILITARY IS REQUIRED T O BE CONFIDENTIAL, SO DON'T TALK TO ANY OF THEM.

[BruceChris]

Well, O.K., he didn't exactly say that, he just sounded like he said it.

Legally and factually impossible. If we can't get married, obviously, we can't commit adultery. And if you believe that adultery can only involve married women and not married men, just one more reason to pass the E.R.A.

Is there also a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy in the military concerning stupidity?

Not a happy camper, Bruce Chris
__________________________________________________ _______________

JMATHIS: You have my concern, and my prayers. And I must assume that DADT does not contain any provision for anyone violating the "Don't Ask" provision.

[u-dog]

Is there also a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy in the military concerning stupidity?

No, you're allowed to ask... but they won't know the answer


One can commit adultery by sleeping with a married man (or woman) even if you aren't married.

[BruceChris]

I repeat, two exclusively gay people can NOT commit adultery, at least not with each other.

P&L, BC

[IVAWSGT]

I think they give out bonuses for stupidity in the military.
I didn't qualify.

The best part about his response is that it shows the real reason DADT is still in effect. Its not about military readiness, its about personal discomfort with gays. Don't Ask, Don't Tell has been based on the idea that gays in service undermine military readiness. The policy was supposed to have nothing to do with morality. However when the war was starting DADT discharges fell by half! Discharges under this policy peaked at 1,227 in 2001, then fell to 885 the following year and to 770 in 2003. So the official reason for DADT is readiness, but when war starts it ok to have more gays. Isn't that when readiness is needed most? If we kick out less when we say they will hurt the military the most than is the real reason we kick them out readiness? Also if you tell your command you are gay before you deploy increasingly you will still deploy and when you return you will be discharged for DADT. So once again, if its readiness by way of the mere presense of a gay person will stall the military beyond a functional capability why are more allowed to stay during war? (is that the real reason we haven't won the war? All those gay folks.......hmmmm I wonder)

More and more troops are ok with serving with gays. Its the older guys usually that have the problem with it.


This is from Jeff Key, gay vet who outed himslef on Paula Zahn:

I am an Iraq War vet. This morning, for the first time in a long time, I felt a surge (sorry to use that word) of hope! When it has seemed for so long that no one in any kind of position of power in our government had any lingering attachments to reality, Marine General Peter Pace reaffirmed at least a little of my confidence in our leaders. General Pace is the first Marine to hold the position of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff so as a marine, I have always felt proud of our first Marine to hold this position. Yesterday he said, "I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way." I sat at my computer alone and let out a loud "Oorah!" Finally we can end this insanity and bring the troops home from Iraq, start taking care of them like they deserve and begin trying to make reparations to Iraqis AND convict the criminals that made this mess! Yes Sir, I was just about jumping for joy... a betrayed patriot relieved...the eternal optimist validated...UNTIL I realized that he was not talking about a corporately motivated war of aggression based completely on lies where we have caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in a country that posed no immanent threat to our nation thereby making our nation infinitely more hated than we ever were and exponentially less safe...he was talking about gay people. Glad we've got our priorities straight...did I say straight?


Former Lance Corporal Jeff Key
Iraq War Vet, USMC

[scorpiogirl]

This was in the Washington Post today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/13/AR2007031301526.html?nav=rss_opinion

[scorpiogirl]

Also this from Alan Simpson:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/13/AR2007031301507.html?sub=AR

Seems like the tide is against Gen. Pace and Don't Ask Don't Tell.

[BruceChris]

In World War II, a British mathematician named Alan Turing led the effort to crack the Nazis' communication code. He mastered the complex German enciphering machine, helping to save the world, and his work laid the basis for modern computer science. Does it matter that Turing was gay?


Update: In 1954, when it was discovered that Turing was gay, he was subsequently banned from being on any military, intelligence, or other sensitive installation in Britain. It didn't matter that the war was over, and that he had been instrumental in winning it, he was suddenly a "Security Risk" One year later, under pressure to face either prison time, or a psychiatric hospital, he committed suicide.


This week, Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, said that homosexuality is "immoral" and that the ban on open service should therefore not be changed. Would Pace call Turing "immoral"?

BC

[tdogg]

This week, Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, said that homosexuality is "immoral" and that the ban on open service should therefore not be changed. Would Pace call Turing "immoral"?

BC

Unfortunately BruceChris, he most likely would. Forgetting Turing's accomplishments, he would condemn him for being gay and therefore immoral (in his opinion) and it wouldn't matter what he did for our country. I wonder, if they knew while Turing was in the middle of accomlishing what he did, would they have dismissed him or turned a blind eye until his work was done?

[u-dog]

Would he consider heterosexual soldiers and sailors whoring and carousing all over the world to be immoral? Or good clean, boys-will-be-boys, fun?

[BruceChris]

The U.S. had some large military bases there, with a large number of servicemen, who do what servicemen usualy do. There were government licensed brothels, where the women were given health inspections regularly, but there were also streetwalkers, who would charge much less. When the rates of V.D. among servicemen started to rise, the military decided that something had to be done.

So they decreed that the brothels must lower their rates to that of the streetwalkers. This, they assumed, would get soldiers to frequent the brothels, and the V.D. would go down. Instead, exactly the opposite happened. V.D. rates went up, and even faster.

With lower prices, the soldiers simply went out and had more sex, and the streetwalkers lowered their prices accordingly, and they had more sex.

I wonder how the General would have handled THAT?

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[IVAWSGT]

Same way they do now, look the other way in the face of state sponsored oppression, wink wink at the boys getting treatment.

Its never been about morality in military rules and regulations. Certainly not when it comes to people of color, women and gays, inside or outside of the system.

Pace will say one thing about morality and then allow another to happen. Women are still being raped today, you don't even have to ask him about a 50+ year old example, although it s agood example. Abu Ghraib had the rape of Iraqi female detainees by US male soldiers. Third Country nationals are the work force we are "importing" in Iraq and undoubtly some are used as prostitues. Yet its more important for Pace to talk about immorality in terms of consenusl gay sex.

Its real moral bankruptcy to allow the suffereing of so many on our planet from hunger and lack of drinking water. Poor brown people don't seem to have to same value despite Jesus looking more like them than Pace. When was the last time Jesus said "Condemn ye the dykes and fags so that ye will be-est too busy to feed my children"?

[BruceChris]

It seems that the military is short of manpower, and more gays are being overlooked.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/14/MNG6AOKQP61.DTL&feed=rss.news

And enlistment standards are also being dropped. This is true, whether you are a high school dropout, or you have a criminal record.

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Jen, backatcha

P&L, BC