GLBT Catholics Unhappy with Soulforce?

[lajohntre]

I received this press release this morning. Would anyone from the Soulforce organization please explain why a GLBT religious group would dispatch a nationwide press release asking another GLBT group not the represent them? :confused:

Soulforce’s Agenda Troubling to GLBTQ Catholics

On March 8 & 9, 2007 a bus of Soulforce members will be visiting Notre Dame University. The Rainbow Sash Movement was contacted by Soulforce for its endorsement of this event. After thoughtful dialogue with a Soulforce representative and a representative of the local Notre Dame Catholic GLBTQ leadership we found we could not in good conscience support Soulforce action at the University of Notre Dame for the following reasons.
The local Notre Dame GLBTQ leadership expressed concern that Soulforce’s visit would negatively impact, and hinder its on going dialogue with campus leadership. Also that Soulforce’s communication with the local community appeared to only be concerned Soulforce’s agenda, and not the effect it would have on the local community. After a lot consultation we felt that Soulforce had been somewhat disingenuous in its communication efforts with the local Catholic GLBTQ leadership at Notre Dame. The Rainbow Sash Movement could not turn a deaf ear to the concerns of the local community.

We asked Soulforce to reconsider its visit in the light of the concerns expressed by the local GLBTQ Catholic Community, as sign of its willingness to understand, and respect those concerns. We felt the local community was far better at dealing with local concerns around GLBTQ issues on campus, than were uninvited outsiders.

It is with deep sadness we find ourselves issuing this press release to publicly call on Soulforce to respect our Catholic Space in this matter. We must begin to listen, and respect the various diversities in our National GLBTQ Community, if we are genuinely going to make progress in the areas of civil rights. One group or individual does not speak for all of us. Yes, that means an none Catholic Organization such Soulforce cannot speak for a Catholic Community.

We are calling on Soulforce to reconsider this action, which we believe to be reckless, and ill conceived, and at odds with Soulforce’s call for genuine dialogue. Furthermore, we call on Soulforce to enter into a meaningful dialogue process that will ensure we are not working at cross-purposes with each other as we go forward.


####
Contact Person:
Joe Murray
US Convener
Rainbow Sash Movement
312-266-0182

I also just joined this forum. I am L.A. JohnTre, the founder of FAMnation.com, one of the only online resources for the Black/Latino GLBT community. I just placed Soulfource banners on our website because I wanted our members to know about the organization and its activities. But, to receive such a press release that someone paid to send the media contacts of GLINN, the largest gay communications resource, gives me questions about the organization's goals and focus. :confused:

[Joe Brummer]

Oh my god, this reads like the letter written to King that caused him to reply with the letter from the birmingham jail. It has the same talking points about being an outsider, that we are making progress on our own.....

Aside from that, Soulforce should respect this request. If the local rights groups say that the Eriders will do more harm than good. The spirit of nonviolence would say that should be respected.

One of the bottom lines of nonviolence is to do no harm and it appears that is impossible in this case. Soulforce should cancel the visit.

[NathanATX]

Hello L.A. JohnTre

Here are some of the reasons why Soulforce is going to Notre Dame.

From ND's "Core Council for Gay and Lesbian Students" website. http://corecouncil.nd.edu/questions/orientation.shtml
What does the Catholic Church say about homosexuality?

The Church teaches that the dignity and rights of homosexual persons must be respected and distinguishes between homosexual orientation and homosexual activity. Homosexual orientation in and of itself is morally neutral, but genital homosexual relations are sinful, in the same way that genital heterosexual relations outside marriage are immoral. Only within marriage between a man and a woman can sexual intercourse become an act of covenant love and be potentially open to new life.

Can homosexuals be Catholics?

All baptized persons without exception are called to holiness. (AOC ¶ 9) Catholics must recognize the right and responsibility of the Church to teach about sexual morality. In making moral decisions on matters pertaining to sexual morality, all Catholics are responsible for acquiring a thorough knowledge of Church teaching, taking such teaching seriously, and acting on it from an informed conscience. Ultimately, the individual conscience is inviolable. However, since there exist many internal and external obstacles to full human freedom, decision making in the area of sexual morality, as in other areas, is often flawed. The Network program sponsored by Core Council for Gay and Lesbian Students provides an opportunity for RAs to explore in more depth these complex theological and moral issues that affect moral decision making.

From the student handbook: http://www.nd.edu/~orlh/dulac/Complete/duLac%20200621.pdf
Student Life Policies
Because a genuine and complete expression of love through sex requires a commitment to a total living and sharing together of two persons in marriage, the University believes that sexual union should occur only in marriage. Students found in violation of this policy shall be subject to disciplinary suspension or permanent dismissal.

This policy is very similar to one at other (fundamentalist) religious schools and is often used as justification for kicking gay students out of their schools.

I truly believe that while Notre Dame might seem to be inclusive, their foundational belief that a committed, loving, monogamous same-sex relationship is sinful truly shows how exclusive and homophobic they are. They simply don’t want to have the appearance of being “un-loving.” So they “love the homosexual, but hate the sin.”

The Rainbow Sash Movement's press release referred to ND's LGBTQ leadership as if there were active student organizations on campus. In fact, there are no LGBTQ student organizations at Notre Dame. One "Diversity" organization is specifically for racial diversity.

The Equality Ride has gone through a specific process. Before putting a school on the Equality Ride schedule, Soulforce will have made multiple attempts to engage the school in dialogue about their policies that are spiritually & emotionally violent to LGBT students. If the school's ignore or reject the requests to dialogue, they are added to the Equality Ride schedule.

The Equality Ride is a form of non-violent protest meant to bring a public awareness to the spiritually & emotionally violent policies of these schools.

The Rainbow Sash Movement is not a Notre Dame organization, but it is a Catholic organization. It is a wonderful group of people who are working to change the way the Catholic church treats it's GLBT members. They actually perform a non-violent protest of their own by wearing a rainbow sash to church to signify they or someone they love is/are GLBT. They are often denied communion as a result. They were invited to publicly support the Equality Riders and it is unfortunate they have chosen to not only withhold support, but publicly oppose Soulforce.

We give them our deepest love and respect.

Nate Black

(Note: I am not on staff with Soulforce and do not speak for the organization. I am only a committed member and a volunteer forum moderator.)

[u-dog]

If Notre Dame has an on-campus GLBTQ group ... why is the soulforce bus visiting there?

If Notre Dame has a "no gays" clause or a prohibits homosexual activity in a way that it does not limit heterosexual activity why has this on-campus group not been shut down.

If the local Rainbow Sash group is NOT an on-campus advocacy group but is a local group that has taken on the responsibility of advocating for ND students, how do the GLBTQ students feel about the effectiveness of that advocacy?

Would the GLBTQ students at ND benefit from the witness of out/proud/gay Christian young people?

[NathanATX]

If Notre Dame has an on-campus GLBTQ group ... why is the soulforce bus visiting there?

If Notre Dame has a "no gays" clause or a prohibits homosexual activity in a way that it does not limit heterosexual activity why has this on-campus group not been shut down.

If the local Rainbow Sash group is NOT an on-campus advocacy group but is a local group that has taken on the responsibility of advocating for ND students, how do the GLBTQ students feel about the effectiveness of that advocacy?

Would the GLBTQ students at ND benefit from the witness of out/proud/gay Christian young people?

There is no GLBTQ student group.

The university bans all sex outside of marriage, presumably heterosexual marriage. Violating this rule is grounds for expulsion.

Rainbow Sash Movement is a wonderful group of committed Catholics both gay & straight, who are continually working to end spiritual violence in the Catholic church. They wear rainbow sashes to church to stand up for themselves or their glbt friends/family and are often denied the opportunity to take communion as a result.

[NathanATX]

Rodney Powell is a gay, African American, who has lived in Hawaii since 1976 with his partner of 30 years. While a medical student at Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tennessee during the years 1957-61, as a student protest leader in the African American Civil Rights Movement, Rodney had the privilege and honor to learn and apply the philosophy and strategies of love and nonviolence under the guidance of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and other dedicated ministers of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.

In this interview, Rodney shares his thoughts on the Soulforce Equality Ride.

-5505803446502601372

[NathanATX]

This is one of Soulforce's previous actions working to end spiritual violence in the Catholic Church.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/26

[kara speltz]

lajohntre, you asked why would “a GLBT religious group dispatch a nationwide press release asking another GLBT group not the represent them?” To find the answer to that question, you need to know what has occurred in the Rainbow Sash.”

The press release you posted was issued by The Rainbow Sash Movement USA. Soulforce is and has always been very much supported by The Rainbow Sash Movement in Austrailia and it's allied group here in the U.S., the Rainbow Sash Alliance. However, many years ago, Rainbow Sash Movement USA hijacked the idea from the folks in Austrailia and they have been an extremely disruptive force here in the U.S. so much so that the Austrailian group has disavowed them. Check out their website. http://www.geoffreybaird.com/rsm/index-rsm.html Their website carries the following notation: (The Rainbow Sash Movement INTERNATIONAL
is not associated with www.rainbowsashmovement.com)

Murray lied about Soulforce in 2001, accusing us of disrupting the Bishops Mass at the Basilica. When we expressed our concerns about this untruth, the Austrailian Rainbow Sash rewrote their press release and apologized for the misunderstanding, which had been based on Joe Murray's accusations. However, Joe refused to acknowledge the rewrite and kept the old press release up on the Rainbow Sash Movement USA's site, much to the dismay of the Austrailian group and Soulforce.

A couple of years ago Joe Murray told the RSM-USA organizer in Minneapolis that he was no longer the Minneapolis convener because he had supported a Soulforce action. It was that action that caused the Austrailian RSM to disavow RSM-USA.

Last year, RSM-USA issued a public press release, similar to the one they issued regarding our actions, calling on people not to participate in the Minneapolis action, being sponsored by Rainbow Sash Alliance. Despite this attempt to stop Minneapolis from organizing they successfully brought together over 125 people to wear the Sash on Pentacost Sunday. What was truly amazing was that the Minneapolis action turned out to be the largest protest in the history of either the Austrailian or American groups. The organizer in Minneapolis has worked to create a unified front with Soulforce and Dignity.

Murray basically represents himself, his partner and perhaps another half a dozen people. He uses the RSM-USA name, but refuses to accept any direction from the founding fathers in Austraila. Michael Kelly, the spokesperson for Austrailia's Rainbow Sash has written many enthusiastic letters of support to us.

Murray has from the beginning of the first Soulforce Catholic actions been in opposition to Soulforce saying that because we were not an exclusively Catholic group, we could not protest the Catholic Church.

Soulforce tried many times in those early years to find ways to work together with RSMUSA but consistently met with Murray's territorial claims that stated because we were not an all Catholic group, we had no right to protest. Interestingly enough, Murray won't even work with DignityUSA which is an exclusively Catholic organization that Soulforce has worked with a number of times.

Even Gandhi faced these kinds of issues, as did King. All we can do is to stay faithful to the Spirit that calls us and to love those who do not wish us well.

Kara

[Diane Vera]

I received this press release this morning. Would anyone from the Soulforce organization please explain why a GLBT religious group would dispatch a nationwide press release asking another GLBT group not the represent them? :confused:

Soulforce’s Agenda Troubling to GLBTQ Catholics

On March 8 & 9, 2007 a bus of Soulforce members will be visiting Notre Dame University. The Rainbow Sash Movement was contacted by Soulforce for its endorsement of this event. After thoughtful dialogue with a Soulforce representative and a representative of the local Notre Dame Catholic GLBTQ leadership we found we could not in good conscience support Soulforce action at the University of Notre Dame for the following reasons.
The local Notre Dame GLBTQ leadership expressed concern that Soulforce’s visit would negatively impact, and hinder its on going dialogue with campus leadership.

Who is this "local Notre Dame GLBTQ leadership," if there isn't a GLBTQ group on campus?

Also that Soulforce’s communication with the local community appeared to only be concerned Soulforce’s agenda, and not the effect it would have on the local community. After a lot consultation we felt that Soulforce had been somewhat disingenuous in its communication efforts with the local Catholic GLBTQ leadership at Notre Dame. The Rainbow Sash Movement could not turn a deaf ear to the concerns of the local community.

What, exactly, are the feared detrimental effects on the local community?

We asked Soulforce to reconsider its visit in the light of the concerns expressed by the local GLBTQ Catholic Community, as sign of its willingness to understand, and respect those concerns. We felt the local community was far better at dealing with local concerns around GLBTQ issues on campus, than were uninvited outsiders.

Perhaps so, but how would an outside spotlight actually be harmful? Or does Rainbow Sash just need to avoid the appearance of being in any way responsible for bringing in outside troublemakers?

It is with deep sadness we find ourselves issuing this press release to publicly call on Soulforce to respect our Catholic Space in this matter. We must begin to listen, and respect the various diversities in our National GLBTQ Community, if we are genuinely going to make progress in the areas of civil rights. One group or individual does not speak for all of us. Yes, that means an none Catholic Organization such Soulforce cannot speak for a Catholic Community.

Did Soulforce ever claim to be able to speak for a Catholic Community?

We are calling on Soulforce to reconsider this action, which we believe to be reckless, and ill conceived, and at odds with Soulforce’s call for genuine dialogue. Furthermore, we call on Soulforce to enter into a meaningful dialogue process that will ensure we are not working at cross-purposes with each other as we go forward.

Has any kind of understanding yet been reached between Soulforce and Rainbow Sash?

[Jim Burroway]

Okay, RSM USA is different from RSM Australia. Big woop. The conditions are very different between the two countries. I'm not interested in this squabble.

However, I believe the issue here is in the dialog that local LGBT Catholics in South Bend say they are having with university officials, and they fear that Soulforce's presence will disrupt that dialog.

Notre Dame is in a very difficult position, between the Vatican and the laity and the professors and the theologians, etc. They've always been seen as too conservative for liberals, and too "radical" for conservatives.

I wouldn't take this request as being "unhappy with Soul force." But as a Catholic, there is a historical perspective that is too often missed by non-Catholics.

Catholics has a very long history of being "witnessed to" by non-Catholics, particularly evangelicals, fundamentalist, etc. That witnessing is deeply offensive. When I was growing up as a gay Catholic in the public schools in a religiously conservative protestant town, I often felt a double-whammy -- from school kids that hated fags, and from school kids that feared Catholics. Believe it or not, one parent wouldn't let her kid come to my house out of fear of, I don't know, we would force him to pray to Mary or something. I don't know.

I know this sounds terribly paranoid, and that is probably because conditions like this aren't uniform across the country. But just about every cradle Catholic I knew in the midwest, unless they came from a significantly Catholic community like Cincinnati, Youngstown, or much of Chicago, had a similar story to tell -- especially if they had an Irish or Italian background in the Midwest.

And believe me, I'm not saying this to in any way defend the Church's stand on issue of LGBT dignity or lack of it. But let's face it. Unless the Soulforce riders are as knowledgeable in Catholic theology as they are in protestant/evangelical theology, it's going to come off about as well as if a bus load of Baptists had come on campus.

I think in the case of Notre Dame and local LGBT people there who know the climate, if they say Soulforce's presence will be disruptive to their dialog, I would tend to believe it. And I would not take it as their being unhappy with Soulforce per se.

Things may well be different on other Catholic campuses. I don't know. I don't even know about Notre Dame. But there's some cultural baggage here that is different from other religious-based campuses, baggage that is not necessarily related to Soulforce or LGBT in general. Because of that, I think we should defer to the locals who know the situation far better -- and who are in a good position to know how non-Catholics witnessing to Catholics would play out culturally there. (Not saying there aren't Catholics on the bus, but I'm sure most of them aren't.)

If you want some good perspectives on this, you should read some of Fr. Andrew Greely's sociological books on American Catholicism. He has some excellent observations about how even dissident Catholics (like himself sometimes) can become fiercely protective. Catholics can "attack" the church all they want until the cows come home. But a non-Catholic? ... Let's just saythere's a rather strange ingrained protective instinct that comes from a long shared history.

[kara speltz]

Okay, RSM USA is different from RSM Australia. Big woop. The conditions are very different between the two countries. I'm not interested in this squabble.

But just about every cradle Catholic I knew in the midwest, unless they came from a significantly Catholic community like Cincinnati or Youngstown, had a similar story to tell.

And believe me, I'm not saying this to in any way defend the Church's stand on issue of LGBT dignity or lack of it. But let's face it. Unless the Soulforce riders are as knowledgeable in Catholic theology as they are in protestant/evangelical theology, it's going to come off about as well as if a bus load of Baptists had come on campus.

I think in the case of Notre Dame and local LGBT people there who know the climate, if they say Soulforce's presence will be disruptive to their dialog, I would tend to believe it. And I would not take it as their being unhappy with Soulforce per se.

But a non-Catholic? ... Let's just saythere's a rather strange ingrained protective instinct that comes from a long shared history.


Well, I grew up in Detroit as a Catholic, and I NEVER experienced any prejudice. And that was back in the 40s prior to Kennedy's election. To me this whole claim of rising Catholic prejudice is just a smokescreen. And Jim, once again I am going to have to disagree with you.

First of all Michael Kelly the spokesperson for Rainbow Sash, has spent years and years in the U.S. and is very, very familiar with our cultural norms. Joe Murray tried to use that excuse to keep him out of the affairs of RSMUSA, but it holds no water; imagine if you will some one telling Mel White that he has nothing to say about Soulforce.

Secondly, Joe Murray may have one or two people at Notre Dame, but given his track record, I'd bet that's the most he has. And if we failed to protest, every single time someone told us we couldn't Soulforce would still be on the planning table. I don't believe there has been a single action Soulforce has taken where someone hasn't told us not to come. In fact, some of Rev. King's most strident opponents were those black people who had built a great deal of comfort in their lives based on racism, and no way did they want any thing to upset their comfortable lives.

If I thought Joe truly represented some real group at Notre Dame, I might give his press release some consideration, but given his history, given his attempt to stop the Minneapolis Sash action because he wasn't in charge simply proves once again to me that it's about territory and ego. I find it odd that as soon as someone says they disagree, some immediately want to just walk away. Change does not happen that way. Change happens when oppressed people stand up and take a position. And pandering to Catholics who are still playing victim from the Reformation Days won't solve anything. And for the record, it's not just Catholics who suffer because of Church teachings. Our greatest advesary in Massachusetts is the Church. All of us suffer from its bigotry.

I am still a "practicing" Catholic, though I disagree with so much of what my church teaches at this moment in history, and it's long past time we confront these prejudices within our Church.

[Jim Burroway]

I would encourage you to re-read my post.

I made no claim of a "rising" Catholic prejudice. That's a strawman.

I also was clear that the experience that I described was far from uniform. I'm glad you grew up in a more cosmopolitan setting with a strong Catholic presence like Detroit and were fortunate enough not to experience any adversity. My friends in Cincinnati reported the same thing. But as I said my experience wasn't uniform, neither was yours. But it is, I think something to consider. I didn't make this stuff up. Many other Catholic critics have noted the same phenomenon.

I also don't disagree that it's time to confront the Church. But that's not what this is about is it? Are we challenging the Pope? If so, we'll lose. But are we challenging our brothers and sisters to reconsider what they've heard about us and to join us in our quest for dignity? That's the fight we can win, and in doing so render the Catholic hierarchy even more irrelevant. But one thing we should learn from our enemies like Focus on the Family is what works. And what works is understanding how cultural influences play a role in how messages are received. That's all I'm saying.

I want to say something else, lest I leave a false impression: Soulforce's action at Notre Dame is most definitely NOT anti-Catholic and I do not oppose their going to Notre Dame. But I do believe they should consult local LGBT groups. Whether Joe Murray has any standing there, I have absolutely no idea. But certainly someone needs to do some due diligence here and understand exactly what we want to accomplish and how we will accomplish it, including how we can cooperate with any local groups should they exist. And this should be true regardless of denomination.

Otherwise, we're just blowing into town and leaving the next day with the local LGBT group trying to figure out what to do with the fallout. MLK didn't do that. He worked closely with local allies who shared his vision. We should do no less.

[Jim Burroway]

...

.... And if Joe Murray has no standing locally, or alternately, if we do, in fact, have people on the ground who we are working with and who share our vision, then more power to the Equity riders!

[Jim Burroway]

Ugh... One more thing....

The Equality riders are due to arrive at Notre Dame day after tomorrow, right?

That pretty much means we're waaaayyyyy past the point of changing the schedule now. The publicity and precident would be disasterous.

[kara speltz]

Ugh... One more thing....

The Equality riders are due to arrive at Notre Dame day after tomorrow, right?

That pretty much means we're waaaayyyyy past the point of changing the schedule now. The publicity and precident would be disasterous.

Jim: how much have you read about the Equality Ride and the work they do before hand? These kids do their homework and are well prepared when they visit a school. Why would you assume they haven't? Just because one isolated person opposes us?

Kara

[tdogg]

Otherwise, we're just blowing into town and leaving the next day with the local LGBT group trying to figure out what to do with the fallout. MLK didn't do that. He worked closely with local allies who shared his vision. We should do no less.

From what I heard, read and know about last years Equality Ride, the ER riders didn't stop after the bus left the school. They were available to talk to students and anyone else long after the ER action was completed. They still are available, although I'm sure it's limited until the ER is completed this year. I believe the ER riders, Soulforce in general and pretty much any of the forum regulars would be happy to work with local allies everywhere to achieve our goals. The operative word here is work with, it goes both ways - not just for Soulforce. Perhaps the other group should look at working with the Equality Ride to see how the action could benefit their efforts??

[Jim Burroway]

Jim: how much have you read about the Equality Ride and the work they do before hand? These kids do their homework and are well prepared when they visit a school. Why would you assume they haven't? Just because one isolated person opposes us?

I'm sure they are very well prepared generally on any number of topics. My question is more specific, and that relates to what sort of prep work is done ahead of time with like-minded local LGBT allies to get a handle on what's happening locally. I don't know whether the guy from RSM is "just one isolated person" or not. But as the question was first put in this forum on the very first post, that did not appear to be the case. If I'm wrong on that, I'm sorry. But it certainly raised a very serious question in my mind as it appeared, based on that first post, that a local LGBT group we were in talks with still had concerns.

I'm also aware that different LGBT groups don't always work together, unfortunately. And I don't mean to say that any single group should have veto power. But surely there's somebody we're working with, isn't there? Are we working with Dignity instead? Call to Action? Someone else either local or Catholic, whether "officially" organized or not?

If Soulforce is working with someone else, that's fantastic. There's no mention of that here though. Perhaps a staffer can elaborate a little on what's going on.

The operative word here is work with, it goes both ways - not just for Soulforce. Perhaps the other group should look at working with the Equality Ride to see how the action could benefit their efforts??

Sounds good to me. But when we fail to come to some sort of operative agreement, it seems that we will be working at cross-purposes, as what may happen here (assuming RSM is more than a couple of disgruntled people. I have no independent info on that.). It wouldn't help the Riders if their legs get cut out from under them.

If, for example, we were to hear that Affirmation (http://www.affirmation.org/) (just to pick the only LDS LGBT group I can think of off hand) wasn't able to comes to some sort of cooperative two-way agreement with Soulforce before visiting BYU, and we had no one else to work with there, we would potentially have the same situation.

[Pablo Rafael]

I'm also aware that different LGBT groups don't always work together, unfortunately. And I don't mean to say that any single group should have veto power. But surely there's somebody we're working with, isn't there? Are we working with Dignity instead? Call to Action? Someone else either local or Catholic, whether "officially" organized or not?


As a Catholic I sould know more about this. What I do know is that the Catholic LGBT organizations are very weak. The ever more conservative leaning of the church during Pope John Paul's pontificate has really weakened the Catholic LGBT organizations. I am involved with Dignity. Much of the talk at Dignity is how to cut back, save expenses and deal with declining numbers. The Rainbow Sash Group (am I getting the name correct?) was one I hadn't even heard of before. I wonder just how much influence any of the Catholic groups have.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Diane Vera]

As a Catholic I sould know more about this. What I do know is that the Catholic LGBT organizations are very weak. The ever more conservative leaning of the church during Pope John Paul's pontificate has really weakened the Catholic LGBT organizations. I am involved with Dignity. Much of the talk at Dignity is how to cut back, save expenses and deal with declining numbers. The Rainbow Sash Group (am I getting the name correct?) was one I hadn't even heard of before. I wonder just how much influence any of the Catholic groups have.

What do you think is happening with all the people who are leaving Dignity? Are they going back into the closet as gays, or are they leaving the Catholic Church?

Anyhow, I agree with you about the conservative trends in the Catholic Church. What's funny, though, is that there are at least some liberal Catholics who somehow manage to remain blissfully unaware of current trends, and who somehow manage to maintain an unflappable confidence that their own side is winning. (Such, at least, seemed to be the consensus in the liberal Catholic Yahoo group TheologyandReligion (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheologyandReligion/) about a year ago; I haven't looked at it more recently.)

[Diane Vera]

Some further observations:

Here in New York, there are entire parishes that somehow manage to get away with ignoring the positions taken by the hierarchy. For example, in the Gay Pride march last year, in the religious groups section, there have been a few contingents representing (or at least claiming to represent) particular Catholic parishes. These contingents had banners naming just their parish itself, NOT some GLBT group within the parish. When I asked a few members of such a contingent how they managed to get away with this, their reply was that the archdiocese had other, far more important and far worse things to worry about.

Anyhow, I wonder if one reason for Dignity's decline might be that, given the existence of entire parishes that defy the hierarchy's stance on homosexuality, some gay Catholics may feel that they don't need a group like Dignity, because they may feel that all they need to do is attend church in a gay-friendly parish.

I myself have never been Catholic, so I'm looking at this situation entirely as an outsider trying to figure out what's going on.

[kara speltz]

Some further observations:

Here in New York, there are entire parishes that somehow manage to get away with ignoring the positions taken by the hierarchy. For example, in the Gay Pride march last year, in the religious groups section, there have been a few contingents representing (or at least claiming to represent) particular Catholic parishes. These contingents had banners naming just their parish itself, NOT some GLBT group within the parish. When I asked a few members of such a contingent how they managed to get away with this, their reply was that the archdiocese had other, far more important and far worse things to worry about.

Anyhow, I wonder if one reason for Dignity's decline might be that, given the existence of entire parishes that defy the hierarchy's stance on homosexuality, some gay Catholics may feel that they don't need a group like Dignity, because they may feel that all they need to do is attend church in a gay-friendly parish.

I myself have never been Catholic, so I'm looking at this situation entirely as an outsider trying to figure out what's going on.

One of those parishes represented was a parish of a friend of mine who is also the chair of the Soulforce N.Y. group. I live on the opposite coast and also have a parish that has marched in Gay Pride parades as well has celebrating a yearly Gay Pride Mass. While I belong to Dignity, because my parish is so supportive, I don't attend their Masses very often. There is room for all of us and that is the message that Joe Murray (of Rainbow Sash MovementUSA) just doesn't get. We each have roles to play in our local and even national issues where our church is taking what I consider to be sinful positions that deny people their basic civil and human rights.

Kara

[Diane Vera]

One of those parishes represented was a parish of a friend of mine who is also the chair of the Soulforce N.Y. group. I live on the opposite coast and also have a parish that has marched in Gay Pride parades as well has celebrating a yearly Gay Pride Mass. While I belong to Dignity, because my parish is so supportive, I don't attend their Masses very often.

Thanks for your reply. Perhaps you can give me a bit more of a handle on what's going on within the Catholic Church. What are relations like between your gay-friendly parish and your bishop and/or archbishop? Do you think your bishop and/or archbishop are aware that your parish has a contigent in the annual Gay Pride parade? If so, have there been threats of any kind of disciplinary action? Or are your bishop and/or archbishop okay with it, or at least reluctantly accepting?

[Hapless Tigger]

Got another email from them this morning telling me this was on their webpage:

Peace to you and your loved ones during this Holy Season of Lent.

Recently there has been what I consider non-violent tension between Soulforce and the Rainbow Sash Movement (RSM). I believe this tension has been caused because of issues of communication. It is my hope that we can move beyond this, learn to work together, and respect each others religious integrity. In my opinion, this can only be accomplished by open and honest communication.

The recent Press Release which was released to the national gay media happened after a lot of thought and prayer. Initially we had been contacted by a Soulforce bus organizer to endorse the Soulforce action. We began to gather facts by reaching out to our local Notre Dame membership, and reading the University’s policies around same sex issues. Again, we tried to open direct lines of communicaton with Soulforce leadership, to no avail .

The question that must be raised is that of Catholic schema, verses Non Catholic schema. I believe this was a lost opportunity for our two organizations to honestly and respectfully discuss this matter.

The Catholic Church continues to lead a world wide war on the human rights of glbtq people. We understand there is much for us and others to do to combat this type of homophobia. We need all the help and prayers we can get. While I cannot speak for other Catholic glbtq organizations I think we would find common ground with that observation. However, we must do the work within the frame work of our Catholic faith. Speaking for me, your support in that frame work would be welcomed, and appreciated.

Throughout this process we believe our actions were above board, and respectful of those we were dealing with. At no time did we stop reaching out to Soulforce, but those attempts fell on silent ears. Lacking this communication our leadership decided to follow the Notre Dame Rainbow Sash Movements request not to endorse the Soulforce action because of disingenuous communication with their local GLBTQ leadership.

During these 40 days of Lent it is my prayer that both organizations pause to reflect on Christ’s life and mission. All of us have fallen short. If individual members of Soulforce have been up set with us because of our Press Release; I ask for your forgiveness, that was not our intent

God bless

Joe Murray
US Convener
Rainbow Sash Movement


Don't know what to make of it, other than he sounds sincere?

[kara speltz]

It upsets me to see people continue to take RSMUSA at face value given their history. I suggest you check out the blogs about the visit to Notre Dame and see what kind of response our courageous Riders got from the students there. As I suspected RSMUSA really does not have any significant # of students who didn't want us there. On the contrary, the students were very grateful for our being there.

Again, I remind people that Joe Murray and his handful of people continue to create disunity. Again this small band of troublemakers has been disavowed by the original founders or Rainbow Sash, that should tell people a lot. Why give credence to their isolationist attitude that only Catholic can speak to Catholics. The young man who coordinated this particular visit is Catholic and a former seminarian.

[Diane Vera]

It upsets me to see people continue to take RSMUSA at face value given their history. I suggest you check out the blogs about the visit to Notre Dame and see what kind of response our courageous Riders got from the students there. As I suspected RSMUSA really does not have any significant # of students who didn't want us there. On the contrary, the students were very grateful for our being there.

Again, I remind people that Joe Murray and his handful of people continue to create disunity. Again this small band of troublemakers has been disavowed by the original founders or Rainbow Sash, that should tell people a lot.

It seems to me that it is unrealistic to expect people to just ignore him. Most people are unlikely to care about past organizational squabbles, which could have been caused by just about anything, as far as most outsiders would know. Who really knows, except the people involved? You can reasonably ask people to question what he says, but not to ignore him totally.

Whatever Joe Murray's history, and however many or few Notre Dame students he represents, has Soulforce attempted to communcate with him lately? Or have you just been trying to ignore him? He claims he's been trying to dialogue with you but to no avail. Is that claim true, or not?

Why give credence to their isolationist attitude that only Catholic can speak to Catholics. The young man who coordinated this particular visit is Catholic and a former seminarian.

Has Joe Murray been informed that the coordinator of Soulforce's visit to Notre Dame is Catholic?

Anyhow, I'm glad to hear that your visit to Notre Dame went well.

But it seems to me that, unless Joe Murray and you both make a sincere effort to resolve this squabble, he'll continue to be a thorn in your side, justified or not.

[kara speltz]

Our Equality Riders can speak so much more eloquently about the experience at Notre Dame than I could ever argue. It would have been sad, indeed, had they allowed anyone to dissuade them of the rightousness of their time at Notre Dame. I continue to be inspired by these young people. Kara

We boarded the bus to head over to campus, and six riders prepared to engage in civil disobedience. I still was not fully aware of the importance of our work and the power of civil disobedience until later in the day. Many students e-mailed us, walked up to us on campus the first day, and offered words of thanks and encouragement. As we received warnings and exited campus, many students were visibly upset that their university was treating us with a lack of hospitality. I personally had four different people apologize to me for the way Notre Dame received the Equality Ride.

This morning, we stood vigil and recited the prayer of St. Francis – which begins, “Lord, make me an instrument of your peace” – while six of our riders crossed the street onto Notre Dame campus carrying a gift of three wreaths, symbolizing the Trinity, to place at the statue of gay military hero Tom Dooley. When warned that they would face arrest, each rider stated that they intended to continue onto campus to place the wreath at Tom Dooley’s statue. One Notre Dame student, Eddy Velazquez, carried the wreath all the way onto campus and placed it near the statue. The campus police arrested and processed the riders and returned them to our hotel. As they boarded the bus, we cheered for their courageous effort. We know through the personal stories we heard from students and community members that we made a difference.

We spent the afternoon at the local LGBT community center, where we viewed and discussed a film about a nun who went to the Vatican to invite the Roman Catholic Church to accept the LGBT community. Students from a few different local campuses joined us for this event.

For me, this stop was revolutionary. We made a difference in the lives of people at Notre Dame. I am proud to be a part of this amazing effort, and I am proud that the Westbound bus took such a courageous stand for our community.

Jonathan Hilbrands

Posted in 2007 Equality Ride: West

[morningrob]

While I am of mixed opinion about some of the opinions expressed, I do believe there is a number of things that should be answered in order to help clarify how the ride works.

1. How are schools chosen? Is it purely on the stated policy or are other factors also considered? In other words, I read about possible disciplinary action regarding sex outside of marriage, but has anybody actually been kicked out? In other words, is it a policy that is never enforced. Would a school be chosen that is not gay friendly, regardless of the stated policy? If so, what would be necessary criteria to choose that school?
2. Is soulforce invited by local groups or do they choose random schools? Being invited by a local group would be more in line with how King did his actions. But this situation is different from King's situation and therefore might mean different tactics are needed.

Perhaps a little more transparency in the process could make this whole thread irrelevant?