Hi, I'm Wanderer

[Wanderer]

I just wanted to say "Hello," to the folks here.

Actually, there was something else on my mind. I used to be a believer (...and I know how bad that sounds on this list, but it's the truth...) and even though I can no longer count myself as a believer, I did run across some old Bible notes, that I no longer use. I thought for about half a second and thought that maybe somebody here might find them helpful. I'll post them...*if* somebody tells me that they want me to do so. Any takers?

Anyway...Hello to all.

Wanderer

[Zerbie]

Hello Wanderer,

Your name raises all kinds of images in my mind - majestic name.

Anyway, welcome.
All kinds of faiths (and non-faiths) are welcome here, and many are freely discussed. While I'm not a Bible-phile (is that a word?), there are many on this forum who belong to various christian denominations and I bet some of them would enjoy discussing your Bible notes with you. I also bet you'll hear from them soon.

[andrewlittle]

Glad you came to join us.

I am curious. Your post sounds a little like a dare.

Let me ask you, if I might, when you say "you used to be a believer..." - a believer in what exactly? You don't say.

I used to believe a lot of things that I no longer believe.

I guess if I went to a site dedicated to unfriendly business takeover specialists I could say, "I used to be a believer ... but now I'm not. But I have some old Bible notes if you want to see them."

Some might think that I used to be Christian and no longer believe. That could be an error of assumption on their part.

Others might think, "Hmmm. He used to be an unfriendly business takeover specialist, but now he's not. I wonder if his Bible notes are about condemning unfriendly business takeover specialists because they're - oh, I don't know, evil."

Would you entertain telling what you were a believer of, before one of us decides whether or not we want to see what else you have to offer?

No matter what about the passages, though, we always love to have new friends. Feel welcome, and let us know what's on your mind.

[u-dog]

I used to believe that Andrew was an arrogant, self-absorbed, Son of a B****, blowhard, but I don't believe that anymore.

He sent me a picture of his mother and she's definately a human being. :lol:

Dave

[andrewlittle]

I used to believe that Andrew was an arrogant, self-absorbed, Son of a B****, blowhard, but I don't believe that anymore.

He sent me a picture of his mother and she's definately a human being. :lol:

Dave

That may actually count as the nicest thing you've ever said about me, Gramps. How sad is that?

You will notice, BTW, I didn't send you a picture of dear ol' dad.

[u-dog]

you have PAINTED a pretty clear picture of him... definately a "Curr".

[Antoninus7]

Wow what happened Wanderer? You know faith can never be lost because we are all given a measure of it. It grows only through the exercise in life called trials. I know it may seem sometimes that we a re actually all alone but we are not. Your faith has not left you and the more yyou share your scriptures with people like me your faith will grow my friend, because we serve a God who lives and his promises that come through the faith of believing sometimes may be a little shy but trust me Jesus is still there. I read yur note and I am sure I am older than you so trust me when I tell you will over come you moment of unbelief. There is an old Yiddish proverb that says If I ever stop studying the word of God ...I will forget everything I already know. So stand still and know that Jesus Christ alone is God and He loves us all black, white, Hispanic, Indian, gay , bi, straight, transgendered. Nothing can separate you from the love of God! No man No Woman...no one can stop Our Lord's eternal Love for us all
Jae

[scott snedeker]

Unconditional love of self and others is the only belief I need. I see spirituality as a path to connecting with this Heart of Innocence we all possessed before homophobia separated us from it.

Accuracy of metaphysics is unimportant to me. Belief systems are only models we humans create to comprehend our world.

I believe that all we truly possess is our perception of reality.
This is our world. I we allow random events to determine our focus, our world becomes chaotic.
By directing our focus on joy, beauty, and unconditional love, we create a better world for us

I call myself a pagan because I sense that all living things have an awareness, and that there is an intangible connection between them.

I suggest starting a spiritual journey with practicing love of self. Seek out paths that feel good and try not to get caught up in the metaphysics. Just go with what feels right for you

[Wanderer]

When I said "believer," in my first post, I meant "Christian." (To be specific, I meant for the most part, "Roman Catholic.") After becoming disillusioned with Roman Catholicism (...due to a study of "the constant teachings of the Church," which turned out to be considerably less 'constant' than advertised...) I spent a short while in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (...popularly known as "Mormons.") Things there also turned out to be less than "eternally" true...so I've more or less given up on organized religion. I've read a lot of stuff written by atheists, recently...but I can't honestly "sign on" to that.

As far as the content of the references...honestly...it's pretty ecumenical. I would say, just read whatever you personally find appropriate, and ignore the rest. I'll even give you a "first look" sample, so that you can see how I organize it:

A. Love has no agenda
Prv 20:22; Matt 5:38-42; 20:26-27; Rom 14:1,19; 15:1-2
1 Cor 9:19,22; 10:24,33; 13:5; 2 Cor 11:29; Phlp 2:4,21;
1 Thes 5:15
In the Mormon Standard Works:
Doctrine & Covenants 23:3; 31:8; 81:5; 84:106; 108:7

B. Divine Providence orders *all* things for our welfare
Gen 8:21-22; Job 5:8,10; 28:24-26; 36:27-30;
37:6-13; Ps 65:10-14; 67:6-7; 89:10; 104:13-23;
119:91; 147:7-8; Jer 5:24; Amos 5:8-9; Matt 5:45; Acts 14:17
In Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles:
also Wisdom 14:1-5; Sirach 43:25,27

C. All things are as God has ordained for them, including their "defects"
Ex 4:11; Deut 32:39; Job 10:3,8; 31:13-15; 34:19;
Ps 119:73; 139:13-15; Is 29:16; 45:9; 64:7; Jer 18:6;
Mal 2:10; Rom 9:19-21; Acts 17:26
In Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles:
also Wisdom 6:7; 12:12; 15:7; Sirach 16:24; 42:15
In the Mormon Standard Works:
The Book of Mormon, see:
2 Nephi 27:27; Jacob 4:10; Ether 3:15; 12:27

This is not a challenge to a debate, as I hope everyone now sees. It never was. Because of my experience, I am able to give a very ecumenical viewpoint. If you don't agree with something, simply disregard it. Whatever you find useful is there for you to use.

Wanderer

[Wanderer]

...First of all, Scotty, thanks for your post. "Love and affirmation" back atcha.

Second, Andrew, I'm going to use your invitation to let y'all know what's on my mind as my super-flimsy excuse to keep going on the Bible notes. I haven't noted any enthusiasm for them, yet, but also no replies of "No, thanks."

With that out of the way...

LEGALISM....

1. ...seeks to entrap people
Matt 21:45-46; 22:15-22; Mk 3:1-6; 12:13; Lk 11:53-54; 20:19-20

2. ...is ostentatious and arrogant
Matt 23:5-6; Mk 12:38-40; Lk 15:1-2; 18:9-14; Jn 5:44; 12:43

3. ...concentrates on externals and trivia/majors in minors
Matt 23:5-6,16-25; Mk 7:3-4; Lk 11:39
In the Mormon Standard Works (Book of Mormon):
Alma 32:2-3
In the Mormon Standard Works (Joseph Smith Translation):
see Matt 23:24

4. ...makes impossible demands
Lk 11:46
In the Mormon Standard Works (Book of Mormon):
Alma 10:25-27

5. ...is blind, and thus spiritually dangerous
Matt 15:14; Lk 6:39; Jn 9:40-41
In the Mormon Standard Works (Book of Mormon):
2 Nephi 9:32; 27:5
In the Mormon Standard Works (Doctrine and Covenants):
76:75

6. ...puts man's word over God's
Matt 15:1-9; Mk 7:5-9; Col 2:8
In the Mormon Standard Works (Book of Mormon):
Mosiah 1:5; Alma 24:7; 60:32

7. ...is burdensome to those taught to believe it
Matt 23:4; Lk 11:46

8. ...locks up Heaven against everyone
Matt 23:13; Lk 11:52

9. ...proselytizes, so as to make converts into children of Hell
Matt 23:15

10. ...preaches without practicing
Matt 23:3

11. ...is ultimately irreligious
Jer 7:11; Mk 11:15-18; 12:38-40

12. ...has no sense of proportion
Matt 23:23-24

13. ...is self-centered
Lk 18:9-14

14. ...obscures God Himself
Matt 23:13,15

15. ...is insensitive to geniune human need
Mk 3:1-2; Lk 10:25-37

16. ...is a religion of experts
Matt 15:3-6; 18:1-4; 23:3

17. ...creates judgement and divisions
Mk 11:15-18; Lk 20:19-20; Jn 7:24; Rom 2:1; 14:1-10

18. ...always needs more interpretation
Matt 23:16-23

19. ...denies our freedom to have an individual relationship with God
Mk 2:23-28; 3:1-7; Jn 8:31-32,36; 2 Cor 3:17; Gal 5:1,17

20. ...is contrary to the Spirit, and is sinful
Gal 3:3; 5:4; Eph 5:18

21. ...is relieved by Christ
Matt 11:28-30

Wanderer

[scott snedeker]

I like your style of simple phrases!

I myself seek touchstones that align with my nature.

I put the greatest validity on how a phrase makes me feel.

If It makes me feel in touch with love of self and others then it is true for me.
If it makes me feel inadequate or hostile then it is spiritual poison to me.

[Wanderer]

Thanks for saying so, Scotty! Truth be told, though, I didn't invent it. Waaay back when I was beginning my Bible studies (...it seems like a lifetime ago...) I used a book written by a Roman Catholic priest (...whose name I forget...) called "A Textual Concordance Of The Holy Scriptures." It was keyed to the old Douay-Rhiems Bible, the one that spells "Hosea" as "Osee" and has four books titled 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 3 Kings, and 4 Kings instead of 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings and 2 Kings like most Bibles today.

And I like your tag line!

Wanderer

[Wanderer]

Oh, I forgot to mention--I really didn't come up with all that much in the old Bible notes I used to have (...which were a *lot* more extensive than what I currently have left. That's what I get for being careless when I formatted the hard drive on my laptop...) Instead, I was only smart enough to check out, copy down and organize notes which were made by others (...for the most part, anyway...I did do some work.)

Wanderer

[scott snedeker]

Thanks for saying so, Scotty! Truth be told, though, I didn't invent it. Waaay back when I was beginning my Bible studies .

And I like your tag line!

Wanderer

I would like to hear your concise syntheses of the references. Frankly your interpretation is what interests me, not the text!

[Pablo Rafael]

Wanderer,

Sorry for this rather late welcome. It has taken me a little time to get to looking over your Bible notes. I like the organization, very useful. I think it is very important to keep oneself connected with God's Word. I'm going to copy off your notes and put them in my Bible. Might be useful in a study someday.

I understand your thinking about the Catholic church. I am a devout Catholic and I love my church. However, I believe that God speaks to each person differently and no one, especially not the organized church, can understand fully the ways of God. The grace and love of God is so great that we cannot limit it to a set of teachings in a catechism. All we can do is seek to more fully understand and to live our lives in love.

Thanks for the information. Please let us know more about what you think.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Wanderer]

Scotty, a "concise synthesis of the references" is also known as "theology." The trouble is, I can tell you what my theology used to be, but I myself am still in the process of figuring out--at a very basic level--what it *is.* For the time being, I'll still "sign on" to everything in my first post of notes; I'll also sign on to the second post of notes, with the additional statement that that second list is a list of reasons to avoid legalism. I'll also say this: if I come across something in the Bible that I *disagree* *with* *and* *post,* I'll note that for you.

And as always..."love and affirmation back atcha."

Wanderer

[Wanderer]

Pablo, mi amigo--

So you want more? Asked, and answered....

1. Nobody can bear the Law (i.e., the Torah)
Job 4:17; 9:2; 25:4; Ps 143:2; Eccl 7:20; Matt 23:4; Lk 11:46;
Acts 15:10; Rom 3:20; Gal 5:1
In the Mormon Standard Works (Book of Mormon):
2 Nephi 2:5; 28:11; Alma 22:14; 42:14; Ether 12:37
(see also 2 Nephi 27:35; Mormon 8:28)
In the Mormon Standard Works (Doctrine And Covenants):
33:4; 35:12; 38:11

2. Grace triumphs over the condemnation from the Law
Rom 5:1-10; Gal 2:16,20-21; 3:13; 4:5; 5:1,13-15;
Eph 2:8-9,13; 1 Pet 1:8-9

3. Love is the first Law of all
Matt 22:36-40; Lk 10:25-37; Jn 13:34-35; Rom 13:8-10;
Gal 5:14

4. Love has no agenda
Prv 20:22; Matt 5:38-42; 20:26-27; Rom 14:1,19; 15:1-2;
1 Cor 9:19,22; 10:24,33; 13:5; Phlp 2:4,21; 1 Thes 5:15
In the Mormon Standard Works (Doctrine And Covenants):
23:3; 31:8; 81:5; 84:106; 108:7

5. God is in *every* creature
Eph 4:6,10 (see also 1 Cor 12:6)

6. Excessive self-abasement is to be avoided
Col 2:18,23
In Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles, also:
Sirach 10:27-28

7. You don't know all of God's works
Job 36:24-25; 42:1,3; Eccl 6:12; 7:29; 8:17; 11:5
In Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles, also:
Wisdom 9:15-17; Sirach 3:22-24

8. The Spirit of God blows wherever He wills
Jn 3:8 (see also Joel 3:1, NAB)

9. God Himself forms the spirit of man
Zech 12:1

10. God loves everyone
Jer 31:3,20; Hos 11:4; Zeph 3:17; Jn 3:16; 16:27;
Rom 5:8-9; 8:32; 1 Tim 2:4 (see also Ps 145:9)
In Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles, also:
Wisdom 11:24,26

11. God is good towards everyone
Ps 145:9-10 (see also Ps 103--entirely; also Ps 126:1-6)

12. God is *for* us
Ps 56:10; 118:6-7; Rom 8:31; 2 Cor 3:11; Phlp 4:9; Heb 13:6
In Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles, also:
Wisdom 3:9

13. Even those who are outside of God's People can receive God's grace
Lk 4:17-30, esp. vv. 25-27

14. Christ practiced table fellowship with sinners
Mk 2:16-17

15. We are to love our neighbors
Lev 19:18; Matt 22:39; Mk 12:30-31

16. Blessings upon eunuchs and the barren
Is 54:1-5; 56:3-5 (see also Matt 19:12)

17. The way in which God made us is wonderful
Ps 139:13-15

18. God *never* runs out of mercy
Lam 3:22-24

19. The Law (i.e., the Torah) exists for man's benefit, not the other way
around
Mk 2:27

20. God chooses the lesser to confound the greater
1 Cor 1:27-29; James 2:5

21. God knows us individually and personally
Ex 33:12; Is 43:1; Jn 10:14,27-28; 1 Cor 8:3;
Gal 4:4-7; Eph 1:3-6,11; 1 Jn 3:1

22. Treat all people equally
Acts, chapter 10 in entirety; James 2:1-4,8-9

Wanderer

[andrewlittle]

Just wanted to let you know that I haven't ignored your posts and Bible notes. I have been working on a string of "must do's" recently and my time has been limited. I will, in the hopefully near future, be taking a closer look at what you posted - although I'm not sure I'll have much to add other than, "I can go with that."

For now, just wanted to let you know that I am being quiet - but all good things come to an end eventually. :D

[Wanderer]

At the risk of overwhelming people, I figured I may as well post the last of what I have:

THE SPIRIT OF GOD TEACHES AND LEADS US THROUGH...

1. ...the Holy Scriptures
2 Tim 3:16-17; 2 Pet 1:20-21

2. ...Sacred Tradition
1 Cor 11:2; 15:3; 1 Thes 2:13; 2 Thes 2:15

3. ...Saint Peter
Matt 16:18; Acts 10:44-46; 11:1-15

4. ...the great Ecumenical Councils of the Church
Acts 15:1-29, esp. v. 28

5. ...other disciples
Matt 18:1,18; Jn 20:19-23
In the Mormon Standard Works (Doctrine And Covenants): 6:32

6. ...Spirit-filled individuals of many sorts
Prv 20:27; Dan 4:15; 5:11; Jn 3:8; 16:13
In the Mormon Standard Works (Book of Mormon)
1 Nephi 4:6

7. ...conscience
1 Kng 19:12; Job 32:8; Rom 7:22; 9:1; 14:1-12

8. ...the supernatural sense of the Faith, held by the faithful ("sensus fidelium")
Jn 14:26; 1 Jn 2:20,27; 4:6
In the Mormon Standard Works (Doctrine And Covenants):
1:38; 29:7; 43:15; 84:36

9. ...history
The Bible as a whole, but especially:
Ex 15:1-21; 20:2; Deut 26:5-9; Acts 7:1-53;
Eph 1:3-14; Col 1:15-20
In the Mormon Standard Works (Book of Mormon):
The Book of Mormon as a whole, but especially:
1 Nephi 17:23; Mosiah 1:26; Alma 36:2

10. ...nature
Job 12:7-9; Ps 8:4; 19:2-7; Is 40:21-26; Acts 14:17; 17:24-28;
Rom 1:20
In Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles, also: Wisdom 13:1
In the Mormon Standard Works (Book of Mormon): Alma 30:44

11. ...even through Pagans
2 Chrn 35:20-25

12. ...even through people who are jerks and/or bigots
Jonah 1:1-3; 3:10--4:1

13. ...even through people who are straightforwardly wicked
(,,,and they may not even know it...)
Jn 11:49-52

Wanderer

[Wanderer]

Oops...I forgot to mark the ones that I'm not so sure of, anymore: mark the ones about Saint Peter, the Scriptures, the Tradition and the Ecumenical Councils as ones I'm no longer so sure about.

Wanderer