The New Straight Talk Radio

[Joe Brummer]

We all believed (and hoped) when Robyn went on Stephen Bennett's Straight Talk Radio that change was on the way. We were deceieved. Todays' show was a testament to that. Today's show groups all of us together into a "lifestyle" which is what ex-gays call their previous life before becoming ex-gay.

I have to say, I re-read Mel's writings about the steps. I have to do this or I would loose it! I would go off on these people. It gets harder and harder to see them they way non-violence says we should. I want to see them as vicitms of the untruth, that is easier said then done. I am doing that to the best of my ability to do so.

What next?

I have emailed, started petitions, asked for meetings. None of this has worked. Stephen continues to dehumanize us. He continues to group us all into the buzzword "lifestlye", like we don't have lives, we have lifestyles.

I am discouraged that I only managed to get 358 signatues on the petition for Stephen when I so hoped for 1000's. I really believed that gays and lesbians would rally behind this. It didn't happen. I hoped this would be the tool to get us to dialog. That didn't happen.

I so hoped I could make a dent in this hate, and I don't know that I have, so what on earth do I do next? do you all have any thoughts?

I would love to start a "Dear Stephen" website much like Soulforce did with "dear dr. dobson". I would pay for it, and I would do all the work, but we need numbers to make change, it can't just be me. Should I do this? Is anyone with me or am I on my own at addressing this radio show?

Tell me how to continue or do I just give up!

[Zerbie]

My intuitive reaction to this post, Joe: Get a good restful sleep and take a little time off. Maybe just a day or two - maybe weeks, I don't know. Understand that this is only one person's opinion, and a stranger at that - I hardly know you, and only via this forum. But it strikes me that you are so emotionally invested in this task, in the idea that if only you find the appropriate "button" then you can inspire Stephen Bennett to change.

Why wouldn't you feel that way? You are in a position where you see with clarity what Bennett refuses to see, or acknowledge. You also know, all too well, the violence that ultimately emerges from dehumanizing, degrading words. You DO know all that, and you CAN articulate it, eloquently, strongly, with the strength of experience behind it. But do remember that you are expressing it to someone who *will* not listen. I use the word will in the sense of force of human will - he wills himself not to listen. He seems to believe his soul is at stake. Certainly his life as he knows it, livelihood, religion as he practices it, and marriage all are.

I am not giving you an answer here that you should give up. I hesitate to write what follows, as I admire you a great deal, and feel fond of you, and you might take offense at my perception. But to be absolutely frank with you Joe, and I mean no harm or hurt in saying so, it strikes me that you approach Bennett and STR with a quality of drivenness and emotional investment that may interfere with getting the message across.

My sense is that you go out of the way to try and MAKE something happen. We can't *make* life happen. We have our influence on events, sure. But we cannot use our willpower to cause connections that are not meant to happen. . . even if they are meant to happen in the future, our willpower cannot force the time of our connection with those persons to hurry up. I hope I am not being harsh with you. Even more so, I hope I am not mistaken in writing this - but you have asked, and this is an intuitive feeling I have had for a long time now, and nearly told you about a month ago. The reason I did not? I was afraid of hurting you, and losing your goodwill - especially if I might be wrong.

Do know that these impulses to try and force immediate change are all things I observe in myself - wanting, perhaps as much as you do - to be able to reach these anti-gay types to convince them to drop the rhetoric and stop hurting gays, and to be able to go out and cause the change myself, today, right now and hurry up! Unfortunately, we are dealing with the minds of others, and someone else's mind is his property. He may refuse to correspond with you. He may refuse to meet with you. He may choose to ignore your petition. Or not. But that is not in your court.

Your wish to reach Stephen Bennett in love and compassion, and bring him to a more compassionate regard of the gay 'community' as a whole, is commendable. Yet it is a task for the long haul, not a short term, 3 month or 6 month lease. Years long. Think in decades, not weeks. My advice, fwiw, is patience. Relax. You run the risk of burnout at the pace you are on. How long have you been doing this? You need to spend some time away from it, doing things that will FILL you with joy and recharge you for the longterm work.

Keep listening, monitoring, then choose your battles selectively, rather than taking on every single move Bennett makes. Choose the big battles, and expect no results. For a long time, none may come. But we never do know. The important thing in this debate, imo, is patience. Rather than seek results every time you act, just act. If you continue to feel compelled to contact Bennett regularly, then contact him. But do not expect results. None may come. Just do the work you feel called to do. But I would advise that you detach yourself emotionally from the hope of any particular outcome. Get a good night's sleep, get up tomorrow and do your work. Forget about the results.

I hope I haven't offended you, or been misguided in what I've said. I continue to wish you the very best, and I too hope that Stephen Bennett will in time come to act with the kind of love he professes to feel towards his lgbt brothers and sisters. In friendship,

Zerbie :love: :love: :love:

[Joe Brummer]

This is good advice!

[NathanATX]

Consider that your communication with him is just "confirmation" for him that he needs to be doing & saying the things he is.

My suggestion for your personal ministry would be balance.

I focus the majority of my energy on outreach & nurturing young adults... gay, straight, etc., or in other words, on actual ministry. I give a much smaller portion of energy to countering & confronting bigots.

Drawing them into private arguements isn't going to work, in my opinion. But rather, by increasing the "loudness" of our voice of truth, we will not only be giving glbt people hope, but we will be exposing the idiocy and the ungodliness of "ministries" like Stephens... not by "going after them," but by presenting a clear, powerful message of God's eternal & inclusive love.

We do this through blogs, message boards, radio shows, tv interviews, books, letters to the editor, letters to elected officials, letters to churches, from our pulpits, etc.

Public arguements can be great... but the primary effectiveness is that other glbt people & friends can realize their is a powerful alternative to the bigoted beliefs.

Dialogue is important, don't get me wrong. You just want to be careful you don't become fuel for more of their bigotry... and that's certainly what they will try to use dialogue for.

Though, I have recently encountered a few local pastors who are really wanting to do the right thing. One is open to having lunch. Look for those who are truly open and spend your time with them.

The ones who aren't open need to be addressed briefly and bluntly.

Don't compromise. Be firm. Speak the truth in love.

[Joe Brummer]

Since I have started this campaign a few moths ago, We have seen Stephen invite Soulforce onto his show. It appears it was a once time change, maybe teice but on average it has been small change. I hope for more.

I have seen a longtime anti-gay poster in the blog world, write a long apology to gays she may have hurt. I was ver moved by her words and I see she meant them. Another non-violence supporter was with me on that one and I am happy to say, It may have worked.

I have seen DL Foster, although mean and confrontational, he is talking with me. It may be via web boards and blogs, but some dialog is better than no dialog.

I see the changes coming, they are small but they are hopeful. I do get discouraged, mostly because I am an army of one. I sent out an email last night to the GLBT listserv looking for people who would be interested in creating Soulforce Rhode Island. I am happy to report I have had some takers, and it looks like this may happen. I am creating an email for those who replied tonight and hoping to educate them more on Soulforce's mission and goals.

I think you guys have given me great advice and I am always open to new ideas even if they critique me. I can always learn from my mistakes as I go, and use the knowledge to futher my goals!

[Emproph]

Bless your heart Joe, you too Zerbmeister
-Army of one you’re not alone.
(Long and possibly a bit sloppy, at least for me, but hopefully some good stuff here, some of which I've probably said before. Up until the red asterisks was for something else but is appropriate for this so I just added to it.)

I’ve heard how hate crime legislation that includes sexual orientation is an attack on their religious freedom and I realize now why I didn’t see that it actually is, It was my definition of religion and freedom that was skewed.
If the heart of your religion is the desire to be superior then anything that would assert itself to be on equal standing would be an attack. Equality IS the enemy of superiority. The confusing part is when they call their religion Christianity, the central tenet of which is equality, the golden rule or the great commandment to do unto others as you would have done unto you.
{credit to keltic 63 for "great commandment" (-Christians) I love that. In fact had I not posted it here first, It would have, unbeknownst to you, been stolen and twisted it into a 'term' by now. :love: }

Complicating this process is the notion of Biblical inerrancy. A supremacist will accept that the Bible is inerrant but instead of recognizing this as a matter of belief will infer it to be an extension of personal inerrancy. Instead of interpreting “no one gets to the father except by me” as no one gets to the father except by the example of love I have shown,*** it is seen as supporting their premise that they were better than you to begin with. Truth is NOT their goal. Their Goal is Pride, their God is their Ego, their Bible their Idol. And it is all they can do to distract themselves from the Certain TERROR of the infinite uncertainty of death.

(-The only time you’ll ever see the Religious Right on the side of one celled organisms and vegetables’s rights.) :D
They only believe in one life, that’s why they go nuts over stem cell research and euthanasia. And I agree there shouldn’t be abortion but the way they go about trying to prevent it is indicative of the way the view life, like it’s a war, and it is, they base all decisions on this war on fear (of death), in fact that is the ‘war on terror.’ It’s a war OF terror ON terror. That much terror doesn’t have time to wonder if it’s safer or not let alone care how they hurt/kill others. And you want them to understand the absurdity of what they’re saying?

(-What’s the difference between FOF and the KKK? -The victims of FOF hang themselves.) :( :D :(

It just takes skipping a few steps in the ‘critical’ thinking process to get through, and that goes for both parties. The trick is in “arriving” at being in a place of equality. Getting them to relate to what they hate is what you’re asking. They need to be made to face the consequences of life AFTER death. Only divine intervention could crack that ego code.
2 things. 1 major false prophet, 1very remembered near death experience. Full behind the scenes tour type NDE. 1 eye witness testimonial from 1 major false prophet would be worth more than all the truth combined that we have to offer them now.

Is that something you’d consider praying for? We need a miracle. Their flocks are screwed, they have no idea how sorry they will be. In an instant they will realize (en-mass) what they have done wrong and will not be able to forgive themselves. As surly and sardonic as I may sound sometimes (usually), I don’t wish that upon anyone. It will be especially bad for them because of their expectations. (Lord hear our prayer.)

(-They live in a universe seen through a Bible with “four corners” flat Earth mentality to protect them from the effects of entropy or change, we secular heathen bravely allow ourselves to utilize that in practical ways every day.)
They’re not allowed to admit even to themselves that they are afraid of death. Not only oblivious to it but to acknowledge it would be to acknowledge a potential fault in their “faith in God.” Their ‘universe’ would literally collapse. So they’ve got THAT fear to deal with as well. They can’t afford to even ‘might’ be wrong, which is why they choose a religion where they CAN’T be.

Understand the nature and scope of their fear before assessing the most effective means to dispel it. A supremacist’s only goal is to create the truth that he is superior. How much sweeter when commanded to do so by the God who’s eye you are the apple of? Further hate the thing you love to hate the most, the most reviling members of society, there but for the grace of God, I “chose” not to be a sicko.

Remember, these are people who kick their own children out of their homes. These are people when confronted with the suggestion they cause suicides, respond by attempting to defeat hate crime legislation, no record of victims, no ‘argument’ to protect them. These are people who believe in a Loving God in control of all that allows eternal punishment for finite limited human sins. These are people who consider us delusional yet make no effort to insure their words and efforts are not taken as hatred. They don’t JUST hate us, they are attempting to INSURE our eternal damnation. Imagine the hell of that guilt when they realize what they’ve done.

Army of one, I want to help. I admire your tenacity. I appreciate your persistence and unflinching response to hate with Love. But we need the big guns for this one. This situation requires a miracle. Only divine intervention can help this, as far as I can tell anyway.

One reformed fundamentalist bigot’s words would carry more weight than all our truth combined. They already have all our truth and still do not care. If I were to pray a prayer it would be this, but I would have to feel confident it could not be prayed against by their flocks, and please, anyone, feel free to refine add or suggest better language to express this prayer.

Pray for the highest good for all is of course the best prayer but is too ambiguous for most of us to maintain passion for. So the only reason I want to specify this is because we have the passion for the results of this miracle. At the same time our prayer can’t be limited to any particular thing to effect that change, and it can’t be a prayer that can be countered by their ignorant flocks. Therein lies the challenge. Let me give you an example of what it should contain and maybe you or someone can come up with something before I do.

NDE
The only way to reach people like that is to replace the illusion that is most precious to them with something even better.
In this case it is their idea of Biblical inerrancy. Without it their “universe” would collapse, this is why they cannot be wrong about anything, to be errant personally would mean they might have been wrong about Biblical inerrancy which means there might be no God or life after death. This is why they refuse to accept any “other” truth no matter how much more sense it makes. Maintaining their version of ‘safety’ or salvation is so exhausting a process that’s all they have time for, -suppression of fear.

A near death experience face to face with Jesus or a “being of light,” instantly shatters those illusions WITHOUT threat of losing what is most important, the illusions are traded in for INFINITELY BETTER truth. This is the only way to reach them, they can’t ‘feel threatened’ by the truth if they are to accept it. Right now the only thing separating them from the uncertainty/fear of death or the drollness of equality is Biblical inerrancy. The Bible needs to be removed in such a way that salvation and specialness are not erased.

A prayer worded such that their flocks would want the same, yet very specific.
-undo their illusions, I think that’s it. Undo their illusions of Love, through Love, for the best of all concerned. I still say NDE but I don’t want to ‘limit’ God. Something along those lines, but I’m with you. I just want to insure that the energy put into this as effective as possible.

Read up on the accounts of Near Death Experiences and what the “being of light” has to say that changes their minds, always for the better, at least what I’ve read of.

We need a miracle. Maybe we should pray for the understanding it takes to perform one. :-)

[Zerbie]

Emproph - sometimes I do not understand your posts, but every word of this one made sense to me. I think. Heheh! I don't know if this is what you intended, but what I took from your post here was that we need to have patience and be prayerful and let things be. We ourselves might someday be an embodiment of that truth, or perhaps already are! As for those Joe Brummer wishes to reach who shut their ears so tightly, wait for the divine light to find its own way through the cracks in their armor.

Well, if that isn't what you meant, it's still what I got from reading your post! Thanks for writing.

[Vanessa White]

I am sometimes overwhelmed by the intensity of your posts, emproph, because I want to make sure I understand them but sometimes make my brain hurt in the process. I like what Zerbie had to say, and I definitely got that point from it as well. The good thing is, while we are here, patiently waiting for NDE's to occur, or for our miracle to come, that we don't react to the hateful rhetoric and logic (or so called) that is being thrown our way. We don't respond to the quotes of the Bible or the refusals to see our point of view, even for a minute. Because, many of these persons who despise us the most, want us to react and repent and respond and give them their "due". If we don't, we can know the truth ourselves by our collective silence. Not reacting is often my challenge in the face of ignorance, but this gives me a whole new incentive to be quiet about it. THen, maybe they will start to think that we know something that they don't- could you imagine???? Have a good one, all. Vanessa

[Zerbie]

Genius!!!!!!

Vanessa, that's IT! That is what we must do.

Yea yea yea yea! Of course, that's what I could not quite see or articulate that was trying to bubble up from deep inside, something about the way we are playing their game makes me think of a tennis match where you see Stephen Bennett serve and watch Joe, Zerbie, et al hit the ball back, and you see the heads going back and forth. Vanessa, not reacting stops that ball bouncing back and forth!

Thank you SO much for saying so. You. Genius.
:D

[Joe Brummer]

That was an inspiration, truly. On some of it, I agree on some I do not.


As for those Joe Brummer wishes to reach who shut their ears so tightly, wait for the divine light to find its own way through the cracks in their armor.

This I can't agree with even if I tried. If Martin Luther King had said this nothing would have ever happen in the civil rights movement the way it did.

In the Letter from the Birmingham Jail Dr. King speak to the whole issue of why we can no longer wait around for a miracle. We can no longer wait for divine light, when in fact the divine light may be working through us.

Dr, King said:

You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit-ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling, for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood.
__________________________________
So still I ask, why is the next step. How do we create th tension that forces dialog. What can we do in the spirit of non-violence to make those who are holding their ears, open their ears. I am sure it can be done and believe it can be done in love, with peace, and with compassion.

I wish I could gather the list a stations that carry the show. Contact those behind the scenes and perhaps show them the truth of the damage these messges cause to others. Maybe then the Hosts of the show would finally question their mission. Maybe when people of all sorts just stop approving of their untruth, will they question their reasons for spreading it.


I would ask that you read again Martin Luther King's
Letter from Birmingham Jail (http://www.nobelprizes.com/nobel/peace/MLK-jail.html). The words are an inspiration to the soul when it comes to why do we allow those who will not speak to us, the ability to dehumanize us without recourse. Simple enough, we should no longer allow it. Force it! With non-violence, but force it! If they won't talk, then push the negotiation further with direct action.

Gandhi said it, "bring them the truth in love, RELENTLESSLY"

I know some of you might think I am nuts, but I can no longer sit by and listen this the stuff they say about us to the "our" fellow citizens, who then get to decide what rights we get, or don't get.

"When people have views supporting homosexuality, they should not be involved with youth in any way, period." Linda Harvey, Mission America, a recent guest on Striaght Talk Radio

Homosexual men and women share a markedly increased risk of contracting nearly all forms of STD. The men frequently suffer from other sodomy related injuries, and are far more likely to be murdered (likely by another homosexual) than their heterosexual counterparts; this, due to the typically raucous and oft anonymous nature of the gay lifestyle. Matt Barber, recent Straight Talk Radio Guest

"Hollywood has sunk to an all-time moral low. I guess 2006 will be known as 'The Year of the Homosexual' in Hollywood. With 'Brokeback Mountain,' 'TransAmerica' and 'Capote' winning several major 'gender-bender' Golden Globes - Hollywood is no doubt 'out' on a mission to 'homosexualize' America,"
Stephen Bennett, Host of Straight Talk Radio

[Joe Brummer]

Genius!!!!!!

Vanessa, that's IT! That is what we must do.

Yea yea yea yea! Of course, that's what I could not quite see or articulate that was trying to bubble up from deep inside, something about the way we are playing their game makes me think of a tennis match where you see Stephen Bennett serve and watch Joe, Zerbie, et al hit the ball back, and you see the heads going back and forth. Vanessa, not reacting stops that ball bouncing back and forth!

Thank you SO much for saying so. You. Genius.
:D


Then it allows them to serve the ball, and you to watch it hit you on the head.

[Zerbie]

Paradox. We're buttin' heads, Joe. I doubt you and I will see eye to eye on this matter anytime soon. I stand by everything I've said in this thread so far.

We DO need to unplug in some ways. By playing the "tennis match" with them, we are playing the game that they set up, within their framework. At this moment I believe the way to best approach things is to stop following the framework they've set up.

Vanessa suggested - brilliantly - that we not react. She did NOT suggest that we not respond. Not responding would allow them free reign to slam us in the head with their harmful crap - like you said. Non responding is what MLK takes issue with in this letter from the jail, not non-reactivity. Kind of like how in that book the forum was discussing by Walter Wink, the admonition to turn the other cheek was revealed to be non-reactive, yet a powerful response.

What we need to do is to stop listening to STR. Metaphorically, not literally Joe. In other words, stop taking it in. The community around us - ALL OF US - need to stop listening. If they literally lose their listenership, there is no longer a show. I like your idea of shifting focus to the radio stations. But if there remains a listenership and contributions continue to flow in, then there will still be Straight Talk Radio. Let's educate the rest of the community! Let's persuade the non-stephen-bennetts to stop tuning in! Let them lose their listenership. Me, anyway, I would like to see the energy shift to strategizing how to make THAT stop happening.

Well. We've been over this enough times that it's become a beating of the proverbially dead horse. I too want the hate rhetoric to stop before one more gay person harms himself or before one more wackjob runs into a gay bar with a hatchet. But I also do not see a way for us to "make" Stephen Bennett change his mind. It's HIS mind. What else can WE do with Stephen but be prayerful and wait? That isn't total non-action or capitulation. It's recognizing there is a wall there, at least for now. Perhaps our task is elsewhere? When there IS something to be done, you will do it. You know that. Be patient. Now that I'm repeating myself I'm going to go away for a while because you surely know already what I am likely to say. I will be following this thread, but can't say for certain if I will write in again. I really do care Joe.

[Joe Brummer]

Let's educate the rest of the community! Let's persuade the non-stephen-bennetts to stop tuning in! Let them lose their listenership. Me, anyway, I would like to see the energy shift to strategizing how to make THAT stop happening.



When I talk of action.....this is what I mean.......

We are on the same page, maybe I just don't articulate it well. When I say how do we stop this to people. These are the suggestions I am looking for.....

How do we find the stations?
How do we reach others?

It is obvious Stephen Bennett isn't goinf to meet with me at this point, but that doesn't mean I want to sit and do nothing. I, too want to shift the energy someplace, but where is it..... and how?

Do we know of a resource to find out what stations he is on? I don't, but somebody may.

Zerbie,
You really are thinking what I am, maybe you just didn't know it.

[Joe Brummer]

Emporph,
I have re-read your post a couple of times now, it took me a few shots to see where you were going with this, but I decided to research some of your points and ideas......wow....brillant is all I can say!

I offer this as something to ponder, It is insightful and facinating.

http://www.near-death.com/

or better still

http://www.near-death.com/dale.html

[Vanessa White]

Zerbie: I hope that you, as well as Joe, are tuning in. Zerbie has it right, that not reacting in no way means not responding, or better said, not ACTING. I too, wonder how and where to go with our message. I have been thinking on this all morning since I read it. Joe, I agree that action is necessary, nonviolent action. In our collective silence, we know our truth, we feel God's love, we can continue to know of ourselves, no matter what STR says, that we are whole and good and not flawed in any way. But, how then do we take our own action to the people that need to hear it? I guess, one person at a time. I envision it almost as a mission that is side by side with their mission, so people that really want to be critical thinkers, and get all the info before they make up their own minds, can have both views. We cannot change minds who do not want to be changed, but we may be able to influence those that may be questioning themselves. My own desire to not react even when I feel it is hard to resist, is because I know that I am taken less seriously and may even be viewed as hostile, volatile, immature, whatever- and, because I am a very emotional person, it often takes me a great deal of self-control to limit that. But, I would much rather share info in an objective, as objective as I can be, manner, give people a different way to look at the world possibly, let them try to see us as real and not some imagined monster in total. Am I making any sense at all? I feel such intense pride in being a lesbian person, and a parent at that. However, I feel that pride tested now working at a Catholic University. I am finding new, respectful ways every day to make my truth known to others in a way that they don't tune me out even before I can speak. It is a challenge, but at least for today, I know that I can never give up trying. Peace Joe- Zerbie too and all that may continue to post here. :pray: :love:

[Zerbie]

Yes I am reading. I will not post anymore what I think of us trying to confront Stephen Bennett directly, because I've done so at least 3 times, maybe 4, each time at length. If anyone wants to read my opinions, all you have to do is go to the old threads and old posts.

I'll only post newer thoughts from now on!

Vanessa and everyone, can we even begin to MEASURE how much we impact the movement just by being, when we aren't "being activists"? Activists are my heros and idols. But even in my own life I could go on for hours extolling the wonderfulness of gay/lesbian people I know who would never jump into the frays that we jump into. Every well-adjusted, normal, decent gay person is a living example of what we are trying to communicate to the rest of the world. Sometimes our words are needed, and when they are, we speak out. Yay! But for many people who otherwise would not take our words to heart and simply did not understand what a homosexual was, DO come to that understanding because their cousin/sister/colleague is gay and a wonderful person. There IS action in just being. There is. There really is. And that impact we will not be able to measure. That kind of just being is the kind that allows the divine light to do it's work, without us trying to force it. We have to just let it. Letting go is usually stronger than pushing.

[Vanessa White]

Right on, Zerbie. Just in our essence are we making a difference. Just in our ability to have it be seen that we can be proud persons, even in our quiet, living our lives kind of pride, and that we are just living our lives, reaching out to others, suffering loss, raising our kids, paying the mortgage, driving to work, all of the things that we also have the freedom to do. I had a lot more energy in my twenties, as well as a lot more of an inclination, to attend a pride parade, or conduct a protest, or carry a banner. It is not that I do not see those actions as being potentially effective or useful, I just choose to create the awareness in a different way now. Don't get me wrong, I am disturbed by displays of negativity toward myself or other gay persons, but I just have to try to not let it in, because to let it in allows me to not love myself as much. I really have noticed about some persons in our community, whom we both assumed would be not okay with our family (because we do have a child in elementary school so we do encounter a lot of heterosexual families) that they treat us with the utmost respect. Is that because they love gay persons, or because they have no clue? I prefer to think, that it is because they have come to know us as persons, parents, human beings, and then they challenge themselves and their own possibly stereotypical beliefs. We also want our daughter to have a sense of pride and admiration for her family, but also not feel a sense of embarassment or targeting due to us pitting ourselves against our opponents. As I reread this, I kind of feel like it sounds like we are just complying to kind of "blend in". But, believe you me, we do not blend in by any means. We are just trying to live a peaceful, real, human life as a family, and help others along the way as much as we can. Does that make sense?

[Zerbie]

But that's the way it is meant to be, Vanessa!!!!!! (I'm addressing your description of your community). We all belong. And everyone should be treated accordingly. IF that is what's happening with your family in the community you are living in, then you are living out that dream. Your entire community is.

This thread is drifting - no one is answering Joe's question about the radio stations. And I don't know how to find those stations.

I think the discussion we've gotten onto, Vanessa, is an interesting one. How do we negotiate our daily lives in the larger community (not just the gay community)? And what role does activism play in that, if any? Maybe we should start a separate thread for that? I'd like to really discuss your post in more detail, later. . . . (That said - I gotta run; might be off the boards til tomorrow, or at least very late tonite.)

[Joe Brummer]

I have Googled just about every combination of words my little brain could think of, but came up with nothing. I wonder if any stations are really carrying the show. The STR site claims they reached 4 million, including some stations in the UK. I can find any evidence of who these millions of people are.

Online, his site says the about 2000 people listen a day from all over the world.

[Shep]

Joe,
Would it be possible to get that information about the radio stations from the FCC ? I have no idea, but that possibility just came to mind.

[Joe Brummer]

I will try that and see.....it could be, but I don't know that is part of their repsonsiblity. I think their game is to monitor and answer complaints, what I am becoming intrigued by.....is STR's claims that 4 million are listening false, and if they are making a false claim, it that not illegal? I don't know the rules, but I have a few lawyer friends who may know.

Stephen Bennett has released a press release today that basically says we are all drug addicts and alcoholics who try to kill the pain of our lives. While some part of me chuckles at that, like most of his claims. I am wondering how to state that I have heard his claim and can't be bothered with it.

I know Stephen visits my blog on a frequent basis. I know and have seen reactions from him, based on things I have blogged about. How do I say...yeah, I hear ya, but I am going to ignore your claim.

I am starting to believe that not nearly the amount of people hear him, that he claims. I do know there are 100's of sites linking to his....scary thought. How do we tell him, we hear you, but we don't hear you....much like Zerbie is saying. I don't think ignoring his latest completely is good, he will just assume we haven't seen it. How do we let him know, we see what you are doing and we are not giving him the satisfaction of a reply.


A large and important part of Martin Luther King's vision of a beloved community and his guide for non-violence asks us to constantly re-evaluate our own contribution to the situation. I have re-read some of Zerbie's thoughts and I wonder if in some way, is that what he is asking is to do. How are we contibuting to the conflict rather than helping to resolve the confict? Something to think about.

[Shep]

I kind of feel that we shouldn't put too much stock in blogs. What I mean is I don't think blogging and commenting always plays a major role in resolving a problem.
I'm not against blogs and people expressing their opinions, I've been in the middle of it a few times myself, and probably will be again, but a lot of the time it ends up in a tit for tat thing that accomplishes nothing but getting a few things off our chests. Unless both sides are willing to be open enough to consider the other's point of view, nothing will be accomplished. It is fruitless to continue to try and develop a positive dialogue with someone who takes great pride in persistent name calling, insulting and other immature behavior.
I'm sure there are other avenues that are much more effective and necessary in the movement for civil rights, equal rights, gay rights etc.

[Emproph]

Zerbie, Vanessa, Joe, thanks for the response, I absolutely adore what you guys have been saying.

I’ll make more of a point to articulate what I’m saying in my posts. I’m working on the “hurts my brain part,” I think if I can describe what I’m saying better it’s a lot easier to assimilate, Point well taken. I appreciate the kudos Joe, thanks.

Joe, that was the NDE site I was thinking of, I’ve read a lot of stories on NDE’s, books and online, but I that’s the most comprehensive site I’ve come across so far. Come to think of it, the stories of miracles in regard to ‘angelic visitation’ are nearly identical in scope of miracle/divine intervention and outcome. Possibly a more pragmatic ‘miracle’ to pray for as it would not require the trauma of ‘near death’ or even necessarily “a being of light,” I think miracle should be the focus. (P.S. I’ve Googled everything too, several times in recent weeks and have been all over the FCC site too (good suggestion Shep), is it 2000 listeners or 4 million? Is that the kind of accuracy he applies to his fact checking?)

Responding to Biblical arguments is like the Intelligent design controversy. As long as we “debate” whether or not something should be taught as science, before it’s even been determined to be science, we're teaching and therefore also learning that it is intelligent to do so. Furthermore we're "confirming" that this is "intelligence" indicative of the "Designer" we're allegedly arguing about. (Though if you’ve read “The Wedge Strategy,” the manufacturing of the "debate" was their intention. Talk about an agenda!). Like you guys were saying, especially Zerbie and Vanessa, responding to Biblical arguments (as I put it), is confirming that it is acceptable to consider something true that cannot be known to be true.

I’m glad you guys got that much out of it. I do want to clarify that I wrote that with the intention of creating and implementing a strategy. The minority of the religious community (10-15%?, no idea.) Are spreading around 90% of the lies and misinformation and MUST be addressed. The insidious aspect of this fight is that we are being attacked with accusations of attack, it's a brilliant tacitc, despicable, but brilliant.

What you were saying Zerbie is the essential jumping off point, that’s the way I meant to present it. I think you got that though, those of us who know better need to show better, lest how will they know we know better. Therein lies our challenge, war without violence, spiritual or otherwise. Not the truth, but it’s presentation fashioned as weaponry, "to peirce their armor" (< Zerbie).

These are the lines I’m thinking along:
They call their bigotry “religious freedom.” They portray their prejudice against people as prejudice against a “behavior” or a “chosen lifestyle” in order to make it consistent with Christianity. What they never clarify though is that This implies that all gay people who say they were “born” gay or did not “choose” to be gay, are all liars, delusional, or both. A hefty underhanded yet damning accusation presented with skewed or discredited “facts” with an unverifiable third party source to back them up, the Bible. Therein lies the bigotry, not the belief in those “facts” or in the Bible but in the abject disinterest in being certain of them with specific knowledge of the harm they cause. This is NOT ‘doing unto others as you would have done unto you,’ immediately disqualifying them from presenting their behavior as a “religious right,” often the basis of their argument.

Nearly all of the gaping holes in their logic come specifically from the attempt to avoid being viewed as a bigot, this is the pivot point upon which our arguments should be based. The gay marriage amendment is a prime example. Obviously the redefinition of marriage is nothing more that the politically correct way of saying that by our defining ourselves as equal, we are “redefining” their definition of us as inferior, opposite to “all men are created equal.” The anti-gay marriage amendment is not only contrary to the equality Christianity is based on but also the equality this country is based on, making their “religious freedom” anti-American as well. Not “tolerating” that is an “irony” lost on us though.
(With reasoning like that, who needs comedians? :D)

(Just for the record, I’m not assuming everyone here is gay)
Briefly, just a few others. They suggest we are all actually heterosexuals and should want to be so. By presenting this as “truth in love” without so much as acknowledging that they understand that it is perceived by us exactly the same way they would perceive our suggesting that they are all actually gay and should want to be physically attracted to the thing that revolts them most, demonstrates they not only do not understand, but are not even interested in the verifiable truth of here and now, let alone unverifiable “truth” of things written and re-written (and how many times, and by whom?), thousands of years ago.
-The fact that they even have to use the Bible to back up their claims is evidence that they themselves are not eye witnesses to the truth they claim, they literally do not “know” what they are talking about.
-Presenting their assumption of Biblical inerrancy as being adequate evidence for me to consider that I am wrong about something that I am as certain of as I am certain of what occurred yesterday, demonstrates ignorance of the absurdity of their own suggestion, this coming from the idea that they know BETTER, so throw in idiocy as well.

The list goes on and on, the one joy about it though is that once a premise is based on illogic, every successive reasoning of that “logic” becomes more and more absurd, further demonstrating, they haven’t even thought through their own arguments. They are not even interested in the truth of their own arguments! If we really are all proven incurable child molesters, what kind of a Christian wouldn't be openly fighting tooth and nail for legislation to have us all thrown in jail, and using all the "facts" and "studies" in their arsenal to do so?

I’m working on a couple of letters and a format of bullet points that hopefully can be used as templates capable of being modified for any situation, preacher, radio show etc. We need a specific strategy too, listing the order of importance as to what organizations/people we should contact first and how (snail mail, e-mail, content of message etc.).

I do mailings for my dad all the time, I’ve got a paper folder, label peeler, envelope sealer, so it’s nothing to send out a few thousands letters at a crack. It’s less than a thousand dollar investment, but none of it is necessary it just cuts down on the labor and speeds up the process a bit.

Let me see what I can put together.
-Take care you guys.

P.S. Do any of you listen to Christian radio? Is there an FM station available in your area?
One invaluable skill I’ve learned is the ability to distinguish between the messenger and the message, I rarely find this necessary with Christian music though, at least not the songs on the station I listen to. NEVER condemnatory and NEVER preachy (though the station itself may be). The music is as quality as “secular” pop music and the messages they convey are epitome of the meaning of Christianity, ONLY LOVE. It’s incredibly inspiring and motivating, often overwhelmingly so. :)

Joe, we hear him and we’re GOING to respond, we’re just need to do it with surgical precision in order for it to have it’s intended effect. Remember the order of importance when thinking about how to be effective.