Katie Davis

[katie_davis1]

Hi!
I'm Katie! I am a student at Baylor University in Waco, TX! Before I go on, I would just like to apologize for the way in which my University treated the members of Soul-force who came to speak at the campus. To be honest I am truly embarrassed.
I am from a small town outside of Houston, Texas. It is a very conservative town, and I grew up in a very conservative non denominational church. It wasn't until I was about 17 that I began to see so many things that I believe many churches have all wrong. I guess the first issue that really caught my attention and that the Lord always has burdened my heart with is the treatment of homosexuals by the church. As I have grown in my walk and my life I have spent much time reading about different issues concerning how I felt and how others feel. I can't say that I have come to any conclusion on to whether or not I feel acting upon homosexual feelings is indeed a sin, but to be honest I don't think that is my job to say. God is a great big powerful God and he certainly doesn't need my help in judging others. But what I can say is I am absolutely heart broken by the way so many christians bash those whom are homosexuals, to be honest I don't understand it. I mean, isn't the point of being a Christian admitting that you fall short and you are so screwed up that you need Jesus? Also, by the way in which Christians treat those whom are homosexuals, they are sinning as well! To be honest the whole thing baffles me and breaks my heart.
With all of this being said I am still so proud to call my self a Christ follower (AKA Christian). Jesus truly is awesome, and He is daily working in my life. I know that He has a reason for everything and one day we will understand it all!

[u-dog]

Thanks, Katie, for your words, and welcome to the Soulforce forums!

I think that many people find differences in others to be frightening and disconcerting and go looking in the Bible to find validation for their feelings and their prejudices. You seem to be a person who has instead allowed the scriptures to lead her to Christ and allowed him to shape your character. You will find many wonderful people here ... some Christian some not. (I'm one of the Christian ones :) )

[BruceChris]

It is very nice to have straight allies, or just those who do not judge us, and are willing to talk. Most of us are Christians here, and are deeply disappointed that so many people try to tell us that a person cannot be both gay and Christian.

I should warn you here, before anyone else does, that the word "lifestyle" is very upsetting to some of our members, and this sort of reaction has sometimes cut short what could otherwise be a very constructive dialogue. Unfortunately, many newcomers do not realize this until feelings are hurt, and respectful conversation is no longer possible.

Please come back, and dialogue with us. I am very encouraged by your saying that you were disappointed by the way the Equality Riders were treated at your college.

Let me tell you about my church:

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1093

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[jerespoon]

I am very impressed with the level of open and honest dialog.

Katie shared her heart, and Bruce Chris, you tenderly helped her understand life a little better.

I am thankful for the honest relationship I have with my friends, gay and straight, who will be transparent and open with my mistakes and assumptions.

[BruceChris]

Nice message, too. I am one of the straight allies, here, but I definitely have deep roots in the gay, and feminist communities, which is one reason that I have found a home at Spirit of the Lakes. (O.K., so I am really just a queer guy who's addicted to girls. Talk to Zerbie, sometime, she's sorta the opposite)

I would hope that we can have a long and productive discussion, with many other members involved. Even those of us who are not Christians are usually VERY decent people. - Read our posts. - Ask Questions. - Make friends.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Zerbie]

Hi!
I am from a small town outside of Houston, Texas. It is a very conservative town, and I grew up in a very conservative non denominational church. It wasn't until I was about 17 that I began to see so many things that I believe many churches have all wrong. I guess the first issue that really caught my attention and that the Lord always has burdened my heart with is the treatment of homosexuals by the church.

Also, by the way in which Christians treat those whom are homosexuals, they are sinning as well! To be honest the whole thing baffles me and breaks my heart.


What a beautiful note and introduction Katie! :love: I hope you will stay here for a while and continue to share with us (and ask questions, too, when you want to.)

I'm from the Northeast, but lived for 7 years in Houston, inside the 610 loop. I have a fond heart for Houston, and would love to get back for a visit into the nice wet air!! I hate how dry it is over here.

Baffles and breaks your heart? ME TOO!!!! :'( I can't understand it - and I've wondered over it since I was about 6 or 7.

Bruce Chris called me the opposite of himself. It's kinda true. He totally identifies with lesbians and I totally identify with gay guys. :p (shrug)

[katie_davis1]

Yall are too cute! You are already made me feel so at home here! I'm in the same boat with Zerbie when she says that she totally identifies with gay guys! lol! To be honest, at this point in my life I have a really hard time identifying with straight guys, they kind of make me want to puke! But maybe its the maturity thing, like you know girls mature much faster than guys! My friends actually voted me most likely to marry a much much older man! Thats fine with me! LOL! Anyways thanks so much for making me feel so at home here! I look forward to future conversations and learning from one another. I've actually never done this blogging type of thing, that is what this is called right? So you may have to kind of guide me through it all! I love to learn, I love honesty, I love conversations, I love disagreements with a mutual understanding that we all are respected in our own opinion, so far I'm loving this!
In Him,
Kat

[Zerbie]

Yall are too cute! You are already made me feel so at home here! I'm in the same boat with Zerbie when she says that she totally identifies with gay guys! lol! To be honest, at this point in my life I have a really hard time identifying with straight guys, they kind of make me want to puke!

Aw, poor straight guys. :'( :lol: Give 'em a chance. They grew on me over the years. ;) I love guys. Period. :love: :p

But maybe its the maturity thing, like you know girls mature much faster than guys! My friends actually voted me most likely to marry a much much older man!

I actually did that. And it's great!


so far I'm loving this!
In Him,
Kat

Glad you're enjoying the forum, Kat.

[Pablo Rafael]

Yall are too cute!

Aw shucks, thanks... What can I say?
(Uhh..you were talking about me, right? I heard "cute" and just assumed...)

But maybe its the maturity thing, like you know girls mature much faster than guys! Kat

That's so not true! I'm going to the corner and pout for awhile.
We guys do not mature more slowly. Some of us never mature at all.:D

Seriously, however, a very warm welcome.
I like what you have to say and your open and accepting attitude. I am always encouraged when I hear younger Christians throw out the judgement and condemnation that we older generations still hold on to. It gives a glimpse of a brighter future.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Sherrie Z]

Hi Kat!

What a sweet thoughtful message ... thanks for checking in here!

I'm new here too, so I just recently found a really cool resource on this website ... when you have time, check out the "Resources" link at the top of the board, and click on "What the Bible Says" ... then scroll down to "HTML version" and read this wonderful article about the Biblical basis for being supportive and affirming of GLBT persons.

And yes, since you asked ... you are "blogging" ... you are now officially a blogger ... congratulations! : )

Hugs & Love,

Sherrie

[BruceChris]

Well, either name works for me.

I have a theory, well, actually it's not mine exactly, most everybody except young straight guys seem to have figured this one out:

That for a man to totally buy into society's definition of manhood is for him to sooner or later realize that he cannot live up to all of the expectations all of the time. He believes that he must be 100% manhood, 100% of the time, and he knows that he cannot do it. But he has learned that if he can do enough posturing, enough of the time, bluff a lot, and pick on weaklings and/or minorities, and/or faggots (am I allowed to use that word?) enough, make money, drive a nice car, have a Trophy chick on his arm, he can mostly get away with it. And if he can do it better than the next guy, he can climb the pecking order.

I see this as living by a fear-based belief system, and of course, the biggest failure is to show fear at all.

There is a vast oversupply of this sort of thinking in Texas, and not very much of it in Madison, Wisconsin, by my experience.

Thoughts, comments, Kat, Sherrie, Zerb, Pablo, anyone?
I know I can't have gotten it all right, the first time.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Sherrie Z]

On BC's theory ...

Sounds like an accurate description of a very unfortunate aspect to our culture ... any sort of fear-based restrictive thinking does a huge disservice to everyone, in this case to the males growing up with that ridiculous pressure and also to everyone who has to live with consequences ...

The irony here ... in the case of hetero non-trans males at least, if they're trying so hard to impress women, or to be somehow above emotion ... just the opposite happens ... most women can see right through this, and the hetero women would so much rather be with men who aren't so consumed by role playing, and who value the "yin" as much as the "yang" -- and can recognize that both exist in every person in varying degrees ... also, all that repressed emotion that they think they're hiding is quite visible to anyone who is not afraid of their own emotions ...

Mostly these guys just need decent male role models ... just simple attention from other guys who can demonstrate a more open and free way of being ... and if they didn't get that growing up, it's never too late ...

We can make our own definitions of womanhood and manhood ... and we can encourage a better awareness that, in many cases, the lines between them are blurred, as well they should be. As author and actor* Kate Bornstein would say (very much paraphrasing here) ... there are as many genders as there are people (check out her intriguing book "Gender Outlaw")

* And yes, using the word "actor" here was intentional ... one who does acting ... gender non-specific ... : )

Love & Hugs,

Sherrie

[Zerbie]

Well, since ya asked me by name. . . .

I do suspect societal images are unfair to men, especially young ones, in that there is a construct suggesting they need to engage in some sort of hyper-macho buffoonery in order to "be a man." All that is, is ridiculous. (Sherrie's so on the ball - it's easier than anything to see through the posturing, and it's a turn-off, at least to me and every other man-attracted girl I know.)
I think there's a good deal of Angst among young guys, teens and a few years before and after the teens, that if they DON'T "act" (in an artificially hyper-gendered way, über-male) they will be ridiculed and cut out of the peer group. The construct of what an American male should be somehow got here, now, to the era of the ludicrous Snickers commercial. Unless the male is gay, in which case he should be a sexless comedian teaching straight men how to dress as sophisticates.

Anything that demands one fulfil an artificial role restricts the full expression of humanity. I think men are given a lot of negative messages.

Tangent: We own a couple of movie DVDs - which we love - which show cross-generational male relationships (guys with fathers/father figures) as they learn who their predecessors really were, and this understanding of their fathers enriches their own lives and growth. I have only ever seen this kind of movie done a couple of times. Both films I highly recommend. The two titles are "Secondhand Lions," and "Big Fish." If you're looking for a very entertaining movie with a strong male role-model, check out either, or even better, both of these titles.

Shouldn't these last 3 posts be their own, new thread? They aren't really directed to Katie (sorry Katie!!)

[katie_davis1]

Not gonna lie, I love that this conversation got started on my "thread" thing! LOL! It makes me feel kind of special, is that weird?

Anyways, I think both Zerbie and Sherrie made some great points, and to be honest I don't know if I can really say much else, but I'm gonna try.

I have a feeling out of the ones writing here I am the youngest so my perspective on this may be a bit different and from a different angle. Being only 20, I feel that I am at the awkward stage of many guys lives, and the be honest there are very few guys that have impressed me in my life. I had a boyfriend for two years who ended up cheating on me when it was all said and done (I am not saying this for attention, it goes along with my eventual point). After that, I made somewhat of a pact with myself not to date anyone for a year, now that year has turned into nearly 2. I think this is because it has taught me to look deeper into what guys say and their hearts before getting to close to them. I do think that our society has somewhat made guys think that they have to be these "macho" type men in order to be someone in this world, and thats pitiful. It also kind of goes along with that whole Christina Aguilara (sp) song "if guy has three girls then he's the man. He can even give them some head, sex or more/ if a girl does the same then she's a whore." There is just such a double standard in this world.

Anyways, so I am reading this book and I am really learning a lot. It's called [U]For Women Only[U], and it's just these huge relational differences between men and women, and to be honest I have found it so interesting. For example I just read this chapter on Ego, and she was talking about how men truly are insecure even though on the outside they act as if they have it all together. Maybe by living in that insecurity all the time they feel they have to put others down especially others that already are persecuted so they will have more ground to stand on, so to speak.

I don't really know if my response is really even responding to what Bruce said earlier, but to be honest its really late my time and I have already been asleep for about 4 hours, I just randomly woke up and couldn't sleep so I thought I would do this for a bit. So forgive errors, or non-sense making statements. I may read this in the morning and just erase this in the morning. AH! lol! Love you guys!

[Sherrie Z]

Thanks very much to Zerbie & Kat for the kind words ... and to BC for the invite, so to speak : )

No need to erase your post Kat, it makes sense to me! And you are special so it's not weird at all to appreciate your post evolving into this discussion!

[Pablo Rafael]

That for a man to totally buy into society's definition of manhood is for him to sooner or later realize that he cannot live up to all of the expectations all of the time. I see this as living by a fear-based belief system, and of course, the biggest failure is to show fear at all.



Great point, Bruce,

It seems to me that men in our society are at a great disadvantage. They are expected to be strong, independent, tough and able to tackle any situation (and fearless). And they must do this without any external support. This brings to mind a segment that was broadcast on NPR's "All Things Considered" a few months ago. It dealt with mental/emotional illness that soldiers return with from war and our society's refusal to treat it. One fellow soldier said something like, "Some guys are just weak; they need to buck up and take it like a man." Admitting weakness is a mortal sin among "real men".

This fake masculine show of strength doesn't work. Look at our society and see how many of society's problems are caused by the males. Look at prison populations, abandoned families, child abuse etc.

One benefit of getting older is that it is easier to lose that fear of weakness and just to honestly be oneself. Plus I think as I get older I care less and less about what people think of me; image doesn't matter as much.

This makes me think of a saying my dad used to say:
When you are a child you worry about what your parents think of you.
When you are a teen-ager, you worry what your friends think of you.
When you are in you 20's, you worry about what your boy/girlfriend thinks of you.
When you are in your 30's you worry about what your boss thinks of you.
When you get to be middle aged, you realize that nobody actually thought about you at all.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[pnggrad79]

Hi Katie,
Glad you posted here on Soulforce. I grew up in a small town outside Beaumont, Texas and now live about 26 miles north of Houston. I was married for 19 years before coming out of the closet as a lesbian. I grew up Southern Baptist, so coming out has not been easy. I won't bore you with the details, but suffice it to say, Baylor is just the showpiece for how the Church as a whole has treated gays and lesbians. I am glad you have seen this disparity and come out of the closet as an ally of ours. We need more people like you. My daughter, who is 19, has quit going to church altogether because of its hypocrisy toward gays and lesbians. She says that she can't see how Christians always talk about God's love and how we are to love one another, but close their doors to gays and lesbians. I want her to find a church that doesn't discriminate, but like you said, here in small town Texas, it is hard to find one that doesn't. God bless you and I hope that someday more people like you step up and stand for what you know and believe is right. Love God and love others. What could be more simple than that?:rainbow: :rainbow: :rainbow: :rainbow:

[Zerbie]

Great point, Bruce,

It seems to me that men in our society are at a great disadvantage. They are expected to be strong, independent, tough and able to tackle any situation (and fearless). And they must do this without any external support. This brings to mind a segment that was broadcast on NPR's "All Things Considered" a few months ago. It dealt with mental/emotional illness that soldiers return with from war and our society's refusal to treat it. One fellow soldier said something like, "Some guys are just weak; they need to buck up and take it like a man." Admitting weakness is a mortal sin among "real men".

This fake masculine show of strength doesn't work. Look at our society and see how many of society's problems are caused by the males. Look at prison populations, abandoned families, child abuse etc.


Tu Amigo, Pablo

That quote makes me incredibly angry. Surely, someone took him to task immediately for saying that? It's astoundingly ignorant. Everyone, even the strongest person, has a breaking point. That guy who said that has a breaking point, and if he wasn't pushed past it then he's just fortunate.

PTSD is a very severe matter. I could tell one horror story after another. . . .