Greetings!

[goldenbug]

Hello everyone! I have to keep my name confidential for now because I am an evangelical preacher in a fundamentalist movement and have been so for some 25 years. I have an odd name and I would be so easy to trace. So you can just call me Goldenbug! lol

Anyway, I am not gay, but through study of the Scriptures I have learned how wrong I have been in my convictions and teachings about people who are gay and lesbian. I have come to realize who wrong I have been to criticize and judge people who are gay, lesbian, and bisexual.

I am an American/Canadian and I am an ordained and licensed Pastor in Ontario, Canada. I received my training in the USA at a very Fundamentalist Bible College. When I was in Bible College 6 friends of mine were discovered to be gay. I was implicated because of how close I was to several of them but they came to my defense stating that I was heterosexual. What troubled me was that these men were expelled from school so ruthlessly and then treated like they had some form of leprosy!

Anyway, I am glad that even after 25 years of ministry, I have come to the realization that gays and lesbians are loved and accepted by God. I am glad to be part of your board and, even though a heterosexual, I am glad to be part of your community! :)

[andrewlittle]

Most people on these boards keep some level of confidentiality for a variety of reasons - your's actually is not unique. So Goldenbug it is. Glad to see you here.

I have some similarities in my life with your self-description, with the passage from blaster to supporter, but I am just entering ministry as a second career.

I will be very interested to read your comments from time to time. Please jump in where you see fit.

Andy

[BruceChris]

It is true, that God loves ALL of us. I believe that Christianity is all about love, but I have heard that to some people, it is all about sin, and judgementalism. I would like to welcome you to our side, the rest is kinda up to you.

You have probably seen high profile homophobia more than we have, and from the inside, so you can probably explain it better than we can. I would appreciate it if you could think about it, and perhaps tell us more about what you have seen, and what you have learned.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Zerbie]

Welcome Goldenbug, what a cute name!

I'm happy that you are discovering what you are - that gay/lesbian people are beautiful human beings and worthy of no less than anyone else.

Mind if I ask? What brought you to the new perception?

[goldenbug]

Welcome Goldenbug, what a cute name!

I'm happy that you are discovering what you are - that gay/lesbian people are beautiful human beings and worthy of no less than anyone else.

Mind if I ask? What brought you to the new perception?

Thanks for the complement Zerbie. I like my name too. My name or handle that I chose is because I do a lot of investing and my favourite investment sector at the moment is gold so I am a gold bug hence my name "goldenbug". :)

Perhaps I may be exposing here how "liberal" I have become on sexual issues but it all started with my conversation with an individual who is very open minded sexually and still calls himself a Christian. He does not mind open minded sexual relations both heterosexually and homosexually but is a strong advocate of "safer sex". I questioned him and condemned his understanding of the Scriptures initially and considered him too "liberal" and "a compromiser". One day, we were at lunch together and he said to me, "I know of religious leader who has had sexual relations with over 100 women and possibly one man, and was still affirmed by God to be a leader." Aghast, I said, "That's preposterous! Stupid! Ludicrous! It's completely unScriptural." "Oh yeah?" My freind said, "His name was King David and God never condenmned him for his sexual antics but ignored them and blessed him and called him, "A ,man after God's own heart." I was stunned. I had no comeback to offer. It was one of those things that shook me to my core as my Fundamentalism taught me over the years that we have "answers to everything" (yeah, right...lol).

That one incident caused me to begin reevaluating what the Word of God has to say about sexual relations. It was and is a study that has led me on a journey to begin rethinking many things I have been taught about human sexuality. In the beginning, my study and reading mostly centered on heterosexual sexuality since I am naturally inclined that way. As I studied further, I began thinking, "If I have been wrong in my heterosexual views, perhaps I am wrong in my understanding of homosexuality as well?" Indeed, I have discovered that my understanding of homosexuality has been completely flawed, more so than my view of heterosexuality.

So, I am on a journey and I am still learning and growing. :) That's my story in a nut shell! :)

[keltic63]

Goldenbug,

welcome to the forums. I'm glad your heart was opened by your friend's witness to you about King David. It brought to my mind the prejudices that we bring to the scriptures and how we read those right into our interpretations of them. It's amazing that your friend's simple retelling of David's character caused you to rethink your views. Thanks for sharing that.

Steve

[BruceChris]

It seems many good Christians routinely condemn any part of our culture that contains even a little sex and violence, and there is this one book out there............

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[tdogg]

Welcome to the SF forums Goldenbug!

I truly hope you stay around and share often. Your experiences and path to rethinking are truly interesting. When presented in such a simple yet profound way, it seems so logical doesn't it? Makes us wonder why everyone doesn't see it like that. That's why I offer that it's so important to read the scriptures with much meditation and prayer, to see what they mean for each person, in their life, today. What an interesting concept your friend had, one I've thought about many times but rarely bring up in conversations!

Oh well...glad you do, glad you are here. You have blessed me today with your words. Thanks!

Tdogg

[Diane Vera]

One day, we were at lunch together and he said to me, "I know of religious leader who has had sexual relations with over 100 women and possibly one man, and was still affirmed by God to be a leader." Aghast, I said, "That's preposterous! Stupid! Ludicrous! It's completely unScriptural." "Oh yeah?" My freind said, "His name was King David and God never condenmned him for his sexual antics but ignored them and blessed him and called him, "A ,man after God's own heart." I was stunned. I had no comeback to offer. It was one of those things that shook me to my core as my Fundamentalism taught me over the years that we have "answers to everything" (yeah, right...lol).

That one incident caused me to begin reevaluating what the Word of God has to say about sexual relations. It was and is a study that has led me on a journey to begin rethinking many things I have been taught about human sexuality. In the beginning, my study and reading mostly centered on heterosexual sexuality since I am naturally inclined that way. As I studied further, I began thinking, "If I have been wrong in my heterosexual views, perhaps I am wrong in my understanding of homosexuality as well?" Indeed, I have discovered that my understanding of homosexuality has been completely flawed, more so than my view of heterosexuality.

What are your current views on sexual morality for heterosexuals?

[goldenbug]

What are your current views on sexual morality for heterosexuals?

Well....now there's a good question, Diane, and I will try in time to answer your question and the others. I travel a great deal and I really want to be a part of this board and I am on another board (which will go unnamed for a while) and I also have a Blog which I like to try and write in once a week, but really only gets written about once every 3 weeks. My Blog is my journey, plus some of my theological views and opinions. My blog does conatin a brief synopsis of my life story leading up to my views and opinions. I still consider myself an "Evangelical Christian" (although not a "Fundamentalist"). However, if my collegues, my wife (who is 1000% Fundamentalist), and my employer ever found out my views, they would consider me "Liberal" at best and I would lose my job! In fact, I think the majority of people here, although gay, lesbian or bisexual, are evangelical as far as their views of the Scriptures and might even consider me a bit Liberal.

So to answer your question, what is my view of sexual morality for heterosexuals? Let me state that I do not believe I have all my conclusions down yet and I am on a journey in this area as well. But I am coming to the conclusion that the Bible does not teach manogamy as we know it in western society. I believe our views have been dictated to us by a Puritan, Catholic, and Christian past carried on through the centuries. Many Old Testament characters like Abraham (The Friend of God), Moses (the Greatest Prophet), David (the man after God's own heart) and many others were not monogamous. They had multiple wives (and I am not advocating polygamy for today) and concubines. They were polygamous and polyamorus. Judah and Samson saw Prostitutes and interestingly, they received no rebuke from God for these actions.

It is amazing to me that God's only rebuke to David about sex was when he lusted after Bathsheba, took her (stole her from her husband...his friend Uraiah) and then killed Uraiah to cover it up! God's rebuke through Nathan was not that he had sex with another woman other than his wife. God's rebuke was that he had stolen from his friend and tried to cover it up by killing his friend. Then God goes on to say about his wives and possessions,

I also gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these! (2 Samuel 12:8)

So God says, "I gave you your wives". Yes the Scripture says that God gave David more than one woman. However, God goes on to say, "and if that were not enough, I would have given you more wives." WOW! I have yet to hear that preached from a pulpit of a fundamentalist church! :eek:

Since the Bible is not a book about sex, I can only imagine how many characters must have had mulitple sexual partners and it was never mentioned. In short, and I hope to write about this in my Blog later and in more detail, I believe that the Scriptures teach a responsible "non-manogamy".

Also, since we do not live in a society and cluture where the woman is considered "the property" of a man like in Bible times, I believe this now applies to women as well as men.

Like I said, I am on a journey. Those of you here are free to disagree with my views stated above. Feel free to post replys to me, pm me, or email me.

Goldenbug

[Diane Vera]

Anyway, I am glad that even after 25 years of ministry, I have come to the realization that gays and lesbians are loved and accepted by God.

What brought you to this realization?

[Diane Vera]

I still consider myself an "Evangelical Christian" (although not a "Fundamentalist"). However, if my collegues, my wife (who is 1000% Fundamentalist), and my employer ever found out my views, they would consider me "Liberal" at best and I would lose my job! In fact, I think the majority of people here, although gay, lesbian or bisexual, are evangelical as far as their views of the Scriptures and might even consider me a bit Liberal.

By "here" do you mean "here on the Soulforce board"? It is my impression that the majority of people on the Soulforce board are liberal Christians. A few are theologically conservative Christians, and a few others (including myself) are not Christian.

[Diane Vera]

In short, and I hope to write about this in my Blog later and in more detail, I believe that the Scriptures teach a responsible "non-manogamy".

Not being Christian, I'm not going to take a stand on what the Bible does or does not teach. (The Bible contains many different writings with many different points of view, thus lends itself to many different interpretations.) But I share your approval of responsible non-monogamy.

[jedismama]

Hi Goldenbug and Diane. I can see I'm going td be stretched here. Can you tell me what respdnsible non-monagamy is?
Thanks,
Julie Anne

[goldenbug]

By "here" do you mean "here on the Soulforce board"? It is my impression that the majority of people on the Soulforce board are liberal Christians. A few are theologically conservative Christians, and a few others (including myself) are not Christian.

Oh. O.K. Diane. Yes...by here I meant the Soulforce board. I was wondering if my views about polyamory were to extreme for some. I am new here and I appreciate your clarifying this for me. I do consider my self an evangelical Christians but when my evangelical friends and coworkers and even my wife hear some of my views and opinions they will consider them bizzare and I will be labeled as too liberal.

[Diane Vera]

Oh. O.K. Diane. Yes...by here I meant the Soulforce board. I was wondering if my views about polyamory were to extreme for some. I am new here and I appreciate your clarifying this for me. I do consider my self an evangelical Christians but when my evangelical friends and coworkers and even my wife hear some of my views and opinions they will consider them bizzare and I will be labeled as too liberal.

As far as I can tell, the majority of Soulforcers are theologically liberal Christians. But I have no idea how most of them feel about polyamory.

[goldenbug]

Hi Goldenbug and Diane. I can see I'm going td be stretched here. Can you tell me what respdnsible non-monagamy is?
Thanks,
Julie Anne


Julie, Responsible non-manogamy might be considered in modern day terms as an "open relationship", whereby each partner is able to have other sexual espereinces or partners with the openness and honesty that they can share this with their partner. It is my opinion that the Word of God does not really speak to manogamy and there are a plethora of examples certiainly in the Old Testament.

[goldenbug]

What brought you to this realization?

Hmmmm. I can't point to some Lightening bolt, Diane that hit me and all of a sudden I realized my error. I first became personally involved is studying more Liberal views about heteroxexuality. In doing so, I began to read some comments in the midst of that about homosexuality. One of the things that absolutely shocked me was the FACT that the Old Testement NEVER mentions, refers to, or implies anything about lesbianism. I think when I heard that my feeling was that if it did not mention it in the Law, then it could not be sin. If lesbianism is not a sin then perhaps my understanding about gays and the few Bible verses in Leviticus were, perhaps misunderstood. I mean how can it be sin for one gender and not for another gender? It made no sense. That led me to more study and, on my travels, I met some lesbians in Alberta and asked them to tell me their story. I was facsincated. Then I met a gay waitor at a restaurant who was the best waitor I ever had! To be honest, some how I just knew he was gay and then I noticed the rainbow bracelet he was wearing which gave me the opportunity to ask. He was an incredibly nice guy. All I can say is that is was and is a journey for me and it has taken a year for me to come to terms with this and realize how wrong I have been.

In short, I have a lot to learn! This I know though and that is that God loves gays and lesbians and He accepts them into His Kingdom as He created them! :)

[u-dog]

As far as I can tell, the majority of Soulforcers are theologically liberal Christians. But I have no idea how most of them feel about polyamory.


Actually, Diane, I think we run the gammet from hyper-Liberal to conservative evangelical. the thing that most of us have in common is that we do not believe that the Gospel excludes the possibility of "gay being OK"

Personally, I like to describe my theology as "Orthodox" in that I pretty much buy the whole package (see the Apostle's and Nicene creeds for details) Unlike Goldenbug I don't believe that the Gospel teaches Non-monogamy. LIKE Goldenburg I also don't think that it teaches any PARTICULAR relationship or family structure. I believe that the WHOLE of Scripture promotes the Hebrew notion of "HESED" (sometimes translated "steadfast Love" or "Covenant Love". I believe that if a relationship structure is characterized by "Hesed" it is probably moral. If it does not (like master/slave sex or child molesting, or rape, or objectifying sex) than it is not moral.

[Diane Vera]

Actually, Diane, I think we run the gammet from hyper-Liberal to conservative evangelical. the thing that most of us have in common is that we do not believe that the Gospel excludes the possibility of "gay being OK"

Personally, I like to describe my theology as "Orthodox" in that I pretty much buy the whole package (see the Apostle's and Nicene creeds for details) Unlike Goldenbug I don't believe that the Gospel teaches Non-monogamy. LIKE Goldenburg I also don't think that it teaches any PARTICULAR relationship or family structure. I believe that the WHOLE of Scripture promotes the Hebrew notion of "HESED" (sometimes translated "steadfast Love" or "Covenant Love". I believe that if a relationship structure is characterized by "Hesed" it is probably moral. If it does not (like master/slave sex or child molesting, or rape, or objectifying sex) than it is not moral.

To avoid derailing this thread, I've posted a response to this in the separate thread To inerrantists & other conservative Christians: Bible's condoning of rape & slavery? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2563).

[Diane Vera]

Hi Goldenbug and Diane. I can see I'm going td be stretched here. Can you tell me what respdnsible non-monagamy is?
Thanks,
Julie Anne

In order for nonmonogamy to be responsible, it should meet the following criteria:

Consensuality -- all parties involved must consent to it
Safety -- reasonable measures taken to avoid disease transmission and other phyiscal dangers
Communication and negotiation beyond the mere fact of agreeing to nonmonogamy, e.g. about scheduling
Concern to meet everyone's needs and avoid hurting anyone emotionally, whether the arrangement is short-term or long-term

U-dog's term "covenantal love" might perhaps be a good summary of the above, if I understand correctly what he means by "covenantal."