Hello, I'm Antony...

[antonyh]

I wanted to take a moment to introduce myself. I hope I'm not the "bad boy":( on the Soulforce board, but I do value the discussions we have been having and plan to stick around for a while.

A little about me. I've lived in South Africa, Belgium and the United States. When my parents moved to the United States they joined the Assemblies of God. After high school, I attended Central Bible College to prepare for ministry in the Assemblies of God. After CBC, I went to Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis, Missouri and got a Master of Divinity. I am watching the Covenant College protest closely because they are also Presbyterian Church in America.

I came out after Seminary due to the suicide of a local pastor in the PCA who was discovered to be gay. I realized at that point that coming out and being a whole, honest person was the right thing to do.

Right now I'm working on a degree in Information Systems focusing on security. I am starting a job in IT Security Auditing in July. I live in Chicago with my partner of three years and hope that the Illinois Civil Unions Bill passes so that I can get legally married. We are cautiously optimistic :)

[BruceChris]

I'm a little new at this, but I have heard of many men ot the cloth, who have been unable to find a home in their home denomination, for whatever reason, and have gone on to find a home in a church, or denomination that is more in line with their beliefs, and their inner nature.

Have you heard of the Shower of Stoles Project?

http://www.welcomingresources.org/sosp.htm

I urge you to check it out. Also, the gay Christian movement is alive, and well, and growing stronger every day.

http://www.welcomingresources.org/

If you went so far as to get an Mdiv, you must have had a calling. If I may be so blunt, why would you wish to walk away from a calling?

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Zerbie]

I wanted to take a moment to introduce myself. I hope I'm not the "bad boy":( on the Soulforce board, but I do value the discussions we have been having and plan to stick around for a while.

.

e gay.

Certainly not. at least not in my opinion. You can't have missed that your viewpoint was in a minority here - but I'm glad you are sticking around and expressing yourself. There are always going to be many divergent opinions about the best way to go about things and the history of the gay movement is fraught with fractures and dissent. What's special about SF is the tremendous love with which disagreement gets expressed (ok, about 97.5% of the time:p , once in a while we get snippy :rolleyes: .)

Thanks for posting your intro.

Geez! Suicide! That poor pastor. I take it he was publicly outted? God what a shame!

I don't know what you think of Chris' suggestion that you follow your religious calling in an affirming church? Do any of the "affirming" churches appeal to you?

Glad you're still here. Seeya around the conversations. :cool:

[Daniel]

I wanted to take a moment to introduce myself. I hope I'm not the "bad boy":( on the Soulforce board, but I do value the discussions we have been having and plan to stick around for a while.


Your 'bad boy' thought reminded me of the imfamous Mae West who said When I'm good I'm very, very good, but when I'm bad, I'm better.

I'm glad you are sticking around. Every pot needs a good stirring once in a while.

[BruceChris]

Zerbie puts it Soooooooooo much better than I do. -- P&L, BC

[antonyh]

If you went so far as to get an Mdiv, you must have had a calling. If I may be so blunt, why would you wish to walk away from a calling?"


I thought I had a calling at the time. But now I'm not sure there is a God to make such a call. This reminds me of one of my favorite poems:

Sacrament

God, I have sought you as a fox seeks chickens,
curbing my hunger with cunning.
The times I have tasted your flesh
there was no bread and wine between us,
only night and the wind beating the grass.

Alden Nowlan

Still want me to be your pastor :eek:

[u-dog]

I won 't try to talk you out of your current spiritual malaise but I will be praying for an entire pack of heaven's hounds to pursue you. They have pursued me at various times in my life and ministered to me with both licks on my face and bites on my ass as needed. they are nothing if not persistent.

In my experience God is Good whether you believe in him or not. :lol: :love: :pray: :lol:

[andrewlittle]

I thought I had a calling at the time. But now I'm not sure there is a God to make such a call. I'm some where between agnostic and atheist. I find solace with people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins who believe religion is a threat to civilization. ... Still want me to be your pastor :eek:

You bet - it would be a toss up between you and u-dog - well, maybe not, I'll be greeady and have you both (for pastors, I mean). I am also a pastor, and I don't want to be one who knows every answer, just as I don't don't want someone like for that for a pastor.

I also agree with you that religion has been, is, and probably will be a threat to civilization - now faith, that's a different matter ...

Now, as to the "bad boy" of the site. Hmmm. Competition. You don't get the title that easily, Antony. There are several of us competing for that title in different ways.

Just remember the informal motto here (okay, I'm making it up):
It not a bad thing to piss people off or to get pissed off - just remember to hug and make up afterward.

Most everyone likes to think, here. And, as I'm sure you've noticed, it's the threads with some contention and heat that get a lot of posts. They may be emotional posts, but if we can the temporary heat, they are dialogue. We just have to remember to kiss and make up. Some of us do that with sick humor, BTW.

Anyway, Bad Boy, kisses and hugs from another Bad Boy. Glad your still here, and that I know a little more about the person behind the words.

And to really piss you off - God bless you for speaking your mind. There, take that, you - you - bad boy, you.

Andy

[scott snedeker]

I hear you in your sense that maybe there is no God. I don't think God exists for you they way your were taught.

I consider the human concept of God to be a model created by humans to compehend their own existence and the universe. We only possess our perception of reality. None of us possess reality

No one human has even .0001% of the intelligence to know the entirity of all that is or the order of how it runs so we all must use models.

Newtonian physics is a model that works in every day but fails at the subatomic level.

Relativistic physics works for many phenomena at the subatomic level but not all.

Quantum theory works where relativstic physics fails but it has shortcomings also.

The point is, no matter how intelligent you are, there is a failing in your model.

But Newtonian physics will make a bridge hold up, a plane fly, a waterpump keep your tap running. So we still use a 400 year old technology knowing full well that it is inaccurate.

I consider spirituality to be the connection to unconditional love. There are many paths. Christians I observe make this connection with devotion and surrender to their belief in Christ as God on Earth sent to affirm his unconditional love for humans. This is their connection to unconditional love.

The problem I see is that people in leadership positions add their own Conditions to this connection and mingle love with homophobia. This is spiritual poison. For me christianity has been tainted so badly with the hate of christian leaders that it is undrinkable.

My spiritual leaders are ones that make every part of me feel alive, innocent, worthy, joyful, affirmed, orgasmic, hopeful, loved, and loving. I have with their guidance restored my entitlement all of these, equal to everyone else. My senses led me to embrace Druidic Pagan spirituality.

Through this I could see more clearly the message of Christ before it was tainted with the hate that is christianity. It is a pure message that I believe is more closely followed by pagans than christians

Like Newtonian physics my metaphysical model will have inaccuracies but it fulfills the above spiritual needs and works for me.

[Daniel]

I thought I had a calling at the time. But now I'm not sure there is a God to make such a call. I'm some where between agnostic and atheist. I find solace with people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins who believe religion is a threat to civilization.

You are not alone is such thoughts. My high school year book has a caption below my picture which notes that I wanted to be a minister! (Well, my brother is, but that's another story.) And I've read both Harris and Dawkins in the last year, finding their thoughts to be stimulating, provocative as well as somewhat liberating. Like you, I'm not exactly sure what I should call myself. I've often joked on this pages about being a 'closeted Buddhist', but when that isn't a very good description. Even that seems too reductive. It does serve, however, to keep my sense of humor intact as well as remind me that the universe seems to be full of contradictions.

~


May I please help you out with the quote function? It took me a little while to figure it out myself. When you are able to do this, your reader is going to have a much easier time understanding you and will not confuse your words with those of others. Less confusion means better dialogue.

All you need to do is make sure you have the following before the text you want to quote:

[quote]

Now. Say you want to quote me. Then it would look like this:

[quote=Daniel]

Notice the equal sign plus my name.

The text you quote is then followed by:

[/quote

Note the slash! It's the important part. Please also notice that I have LEFT OUT the bracket " ] " after the word quote itself which MUST be included for the quote function to work. Why? If I had included it here it would initiate the quote function itself and look like this.



Notice the equal sign plus my name.

The text you are quoted is then followed by:



I hope I haven't confused you here.

As always, the devil is in the details. :lol:

[antonyh]

May I please help you out with the quote function?


This is cool. Thank you :) Almost like HTML, but not quite :)

[antonyh]

Now, as to the "bad boy" of the site. Hmmm. Competition. You don't get the title that easily, Antony. There are several of us competing for that title in different ways.


Wow, competition. We'll I'm always for that. I'm not afraid of passionate debates here and I agree that we do need to all kiss and make up in the end.

[Zerbie]

Hi Antony,

This has turned into a nifty discussion! (Loved Scotty's post, btw.)

So, dunno if you'll feel like going into the discussion, but if you do, what was it that made you unsure there *is* a God? Why had you been sure there *was* one, before then?

I identified as atheist since childhood, because I was trying to be as different from 'christians' as possible. Of course that was because my definition of 'christian' is exactly the opposite of what Christ would be like. I like Scotty's call, christianity has become "undrinkable" for him - me too. Oh - I stopped being atheist as suddenly as I started being one. All in all, it spanned 12 years, from age 10 to age 22. While I'm not an atheist, there is no name for my 'religion,' but Scotty came closer to naming me than anyone else ever has, with "Messianic Druidic Buddhist." :lol:

Like Andy, I'd rather hang around someone with questions than artificial answers. Geez I'm glad ya stuck around. :D

[Djangojava]

Hello my name is Steve Glass. The issue at hand Antony is one called "inerrancy". Having attended Covenant Seminary you might be familiar with it but I'll state it's premise here so others know. Inerrancy says that the Bible is without error.
So my question to you is what do you do with a passage like Romans 1:18-27 where homosexuality is specifically addressed and clearly taught as sin? Clearly you do not hold to inerrancy.
The Bible is a most inconvenient book. So your issue isn't with Covenant College or Covenant Seminary your issue is with Scripture isn't it?
Is in not fair to say that it is you who are being intolerant of those who would hold to the inerrancy of God's word?

[Zerbie]

Hello my name is Steve Glass. The issue at hand Antony is one called "inerrancy". Is in not fair to say that it is you who are being intolerant of those who would hold to the inerrancy of God's word?

Hello Steve,

I find it very unfair to accuse Antony of "intolerance" of anyone based on anything he has written here. But I imagine he'll probably come along and respond to you himself, soon enough.

[keltic63]

Hello my name is Steve Glass. The issue at hand Antony is one called "inerrancy". Having attended Covenant Seminary you might be familiar with it but I'll state it's premise here so others know. Inerrancy says that the Bible is without error.
So my question to you is what do you do with a passage like Romans 1:18-27 where homosexuality is specifically addressed and clearly taught as sin? Clearly you do not hold to inerrancy.
The Bible is a most inconvenient book. So your issue isn't with Covenant College or Covenant Seminary your issue is with Scripture isn't it?
Is in not fair to say that it is you who are being intolerant of those who would hold to the inerrancy of God's word?

what does someone who believes in the inerrancy of scripture do with a verse like Leviticus 20:13? "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

[antonyh]

Hello my name is Steve Glass. The issue at hand Antony is one called "inerrancy". Having attended Covenant Seminary you might be familiar with it but I'll state it's premise here so others know. Inerrancy says that the Bible is without error.

Hi Steve, welcome to the Soulforce forums. I am aware of Covenant Theological Seminary's views on Biblical Inerrancy. I no longer view the Bible as inerrant. I believe the Bible is a human response to God, not a divine product with divine authority (This is Marcus Borg's language). As a human product, it is full of error.

It took me many years to give up ideas about inerrancy, especially given how long I had studied at schools that believed in inerrancy. Inerrancy is like the pin in the grenade, as soon as you pull it out your whole theological structure blows up, including your justification to oppress gay and lesbian people. I would say that even if you believed the Bible was inerrant, you could NOT make a solid theological case against God's full acceptance and celebration gay and lesbian people in his church.


The Bible is a most inconvenient book.


In many respects the Bible has also resulted in a lot of oppression, quite 'inconvenient' for others. I refer you to Covenant Theological Seminary's free online course in church history. It is really quite enlightening. If you want to dip your toes in the water, start with Lecture 26 on the crusades.

http://www.covenantseminary.edu/worldwide/en/CH310/CH310.asp

The fundamentalist approach to the Bible has resulted in crusades, inquisitions, racial injustice, the oppression of women, the burning of witches and now the oppression of gay and lesbian people.


Is in not fair to say that it is you who are being intolerant of those who would hold to the inerrancy of God's word?


I'd like to refer you to the thread where I passionately debated Soulforce on the importance of respecting freedom of religion in our civil rights work. It is located here:

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2477

[kara speltz]

what does someone who believes in the inerrancy of scripture do with a verse like Leviticus 20:13? "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

Exactly keltic, even more difficult is the one about stoning our sassy kids:eek:

If we held on to that we'd have no young people left in the world today, actually as I think about it we'd have no one left in the world today:( because the truth is we've all sassed our parents at one time of the other:rolleyes:

And boy are those football players bound for hell after handling those pigskins;) on a Sunday no less - that's got to be a double dose of hell at least:p

kara

[u-dog]

Steve,

There are any number of threads on this site that address the issues of Biblical authority and interpretation, I encourage you to read them and respond to anything that strikes your fancy. There are plenty of us who love to argue about the notion of "Inerrancy" and its many flaws. Lookin forward to hearin from ya !!

Dave

HEY ANDY! MAKE A LIST FOR HIM WILL YA? I'm too lazy.

[antonyh]

So, dunno if you'll feel like going into the discussion, but if you do, what was it that made you unsure there *is* a God? Why had you been sure there *was* one, before then?


When I attended Central Bible College and Covenant Theological Seminary, I was essentially studying in schools with pre-Enlightenment thinking. It was like being sent back in a time machine to the Protestant Reformation. Being gay pushed me to consider the Enlightenment seriously. To quote from biologist Edward O Wilson's book Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge:


Bacon questioned the solidity of classical 'delicate' learning, those medieval forms based on ancient texts...calling for a study of nature and the human condition on their own terms, without artifice. Drawing on his extraordinary insights into mental processes, he observed that because 'the mind, hastily and without choice, imbibes and treasures up the first notices of things, from whence all the rest proceed, errors must forever prevail, and remain uncorrected.' Thus knowledge is not well constructed but 'resembles a magnificent structure that has no foundation.' (pg. 25).


The Bible is the product of the human mind, a human response to God. I think that Bacon is right that the mind is an unreliable instrument and will result in errors that prevail forever. The enlightenment proposed a new way of gaining knowledge, the scientific method. Instead of building your view of the universe deductively from ancient texts, you build it inductively through the study of nature and the human condition on it's own terms.

I am not saying that there is not a God, but that we can never really know until science can cross the line into the metaphysical.

I guess I am at the point in my life where I am not interested in metaphysical speculation. I want a spirituality rooted in truth, truth that is slowly being constructed from inductive, scientific reasoning.

As for my spirituality, I find it nourished in Stoic Philosophy (underlies much of the New Testament) and Buddhism (without the metaphysical aspects). I like both of these schools of thought because they really look at the root problem in the human condition: the nature of the mind itself. As I mentioned above, Bacon's understanding of the nature of the mind sparked the Enlightenment. I also like these schools of thought because they establish happiness and peace of mind as our chief aims in this world.

[scott snedeker]

Hi Antony,

This has turned into a nifty discussion! (Loved Scotty's post, btw.)

So, dunno if you'll feel like going into the discussion, but if you do, what was it that made you unsure there *is* a God? Why had you been sure there *was* one, before then?

I identified as atheist since childhood, because I was trying to be as different from 'christians' as possible. Of course that was because my definition of 'christian' is exactly the opposite of what Christ would be like. I like Scotty's call, christianity has become "undrinkable" for him - me too. Oh - I stopped being atheist as suddenly as I started being one. All in all, it spanned 12 years, from age 10 to age 22. While I'm not an atheist, there is no name for my 'religion,' but Scotty came closer to naming me than anyone else ever has, with "Messianic Druidic Buddhist." :lol:

Like Andy, I'd rather hang around someone with questions than artificial answers. Geez I'm glad ya stuck around. :D

I think you take the best of all three because of the essence of who you are!

Steve,

Welcome to the forum:)

I Don't see as anything that exists as Inaberrrant. But then I'm a pagan and have a completely different belief system. I see the passages you Quote as God's test of my emotional escrow.

That fact that I consider these passages to be a test of my connection to unconditional love of self and others is a measure of my progress. I believe they are there for me to read and realize that I have to love myself. That I can't base my self esteem on another who hates me.

He put them there so that no matter who says I'm a deviant I know that I am not. I know this now because God provided me these exercises in preparation for the real thing. Because he loves me and wants me to be strong in my sense of entitlement to love, joy, and happiness.

And those who use these passages to hate Failed to see their purpose and flunked the test. They should have known God doesn't hate. They should have known these are a test to not hate no matter who tells them they should. But then humans are not inerrant and sometimes fail tests.

[Zerbie]

Antony,

What *is* Buddhism without the metaphysical aspects? That's not rhetorical, I want you to tell me because I don't know! :p

For all that people like to accuse me of being Buddhist, I don't know what Buddhism "says." So what is non-metaphysical Buddhism??

[Djangojava]

Hello my name is Steve Glass. The issue at hand Antony is one called "inerrancy". Having attended Covenant Seminary you might be familiar with it but I'll state it's premise here so others know. Inerrancy says that the Bible is without error.
So my question to you is what do you do with a passage like Romans 1:18-27 where homosexuality is specifically addressed and clearly taught as sin? Clearly you do not hold to inerrancy.
The Bible is a most inconvenient book. So your issue isn't with Covenant College or Covenant Seminary your issue is with Scripture isn't it?
Is in not fair to say that it is you who are being intolerant of those who would hold to the inerrancy of God's word?

[kara speltz]

Hello my name is Steve Glass. The issue at hand Antony is one called "inerrancy". Having attended Covenant Seminary you might be familiar with it but I'll state it's premise here so others know. Inerrancy says that the Bible is without error.
So my question to you is what do you do with a passage like Romans 1:18-27 where homosexuality is specifically addressed and clearly taught as sin? Clearly you do not hold to inerrancy.
The Bible is a most inconvenient book. So your issue isn't with Covenant College or Covenant Seminary your issue is with Scripture isn't it?
Is in not fair to say that it is you who are being intolerant of those who would hold to the inerrancy of God's word?

If you actually would like an answer to that (which I doubt:confused: ) the answer can be found in our pamphlet, which you can download from this website under resources. The title is, "What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say About Homosexuality."
You see there was no word (or words) that reflected homosexuality, because there was no concept that people were gay. The word was created in the 1850s and added to the KJV in the 1950s. People at the time the bible was created believed everyone was heterosexual.

And if you believe the bible is inerrant, how to you feel about slavery? I'd be really interested to hear your thinking on that, given that the bible (according to many fundamentalists) condones slavery.

Kara

[Djangojava]

The problem I have is when people start telling me I'm intolerant and that I have or believe a message of hate. Or that they know God and then they just make up crap. I've chosen to believe God and take Him at His Word.
Aren't you all just making up God? Aren't you just saying stuff? What is the basis of your belief?

Jesus Christ did exist and you have only 3 choices. 1) He was a well intended madman, a lunatic, and simply must be written off as such. 2) He was a cruel liar and led generatios to their death and his legacy continues to lead his followers in other countries to death. Christians are still persecuted and killed. 3) He was who he said he was.

I've chosen option 3 and I don't have the luxury of making up God out of my imagination. We really don't have a basis upon which to talk. I hold to Scripture and you don't. That's your right. But don't tell me that what Jesus Christ does and doesn't do. When is the last time you studied what he said? Do you hold your thoughts captive to Him or do you bend him to your convienance.

True Biblical Christianity is very inconvienant.

Believe what you want about Scripture, that it's just made up... that man is a poor conduit... I've chosen to believe that the God who could raise Lazarus from the dead, make a universe, and create man, the space & time... I've chosen to believe that God knows a few more things than I do and I don't have to understand what he says. I'm better off obeying those things that are clear in Scripture rather than re-writing scripture.

Just don't call yourself a Christian or claim you know Christ that's all.

The druidic buddhist... yeah whatever. It's like the old asian menus one from column A one from column B... what are the odds of that being true?

Truth by it's very nature is absolute and it may not be understood but it can be accepted by faith and even that faith is a gift of God. May He reveal Himself to you.

[antonyh]

What *is* Buddhism without the metaphysical aspects.


It is Buddhism without speculative ideas like reincarnation and karma. Stephen Bachelor wrote a book, Buddhism without Beliefs which looks at Buddhism without the speculative ideas. Daniel could probably enlighten us more on this (no pun intended).

[Zerbie]

It is Buddhism without speculative ideas like reincarnation and karma. Stephen Bachelor wrote a book, Buddhism without Beliefs which looks at Buddhism without the speculative ideas. Daniel could probably enlighten us more on this (no pun intended).

Huh. Still not sure what that leaves us with. I won't have time to check out the book til after I get some school projects done, either (I'm so good at procrastinating, isn't that what this forum is for?;) :p )

Anyway, thanks! Someone remind me to read that book over the summer!

[scott snedeker]

Aren't you all just making up God? Aren't you just saying stuff? What is the basis of your belief?
............. I hold to Scripture and you don't. That's your right. But don't tell me that what Jesus Christ does and doesn't do. When is the last time you studied what he said?

Today

True Biblical Christianity is very inconvienant.

Only If you are not well connected with unconditional love.

Just don't call yourself a Christian or claim you know Christ that's all.

I know my brother in the truth of the love I feel for him. No other claim is necessary

The druidic buddhist... yeah whatever. It's like the old asian menus one from column A one from column B... what are the odds of that being true?

Odds are 100% For Zerbie. and 100% for being Druidic pagan for me. For these paths activate unconditional love within her spirit and mine



Truth by it's very nature is absolute and it may not be understood but it can be accepted by faith and even that faith is a gift of God. May He reveal Himself to you.

And he has revealed many truths but not in the same way for me as you. For me to follow your truth would disconnect me from God's design for me, and vice-versa

He has a different path for all of us


When you meet anyone
remember it is a holy encounter
As you see him you will see yourself
As you treat him you will treat yourself
As you think of him you will think of yourself
Never forget this,
for in him you will find yourself or lose yourself........

In truth you and your brother stand together
with nothing in between

Christ stands before you both,
each time you look upon your brother.......

It is not up to you to change your brother,
but merely to accept him as he is

You will never know that you are co-creator with God
until you learn that your brother
is co-creator with you

---Gifts from A Course in Miracles

[Diane Vera]

The problem I have is when people start telling me I'm intolerant and that I have or believe a message of hate. Or that they know God and then they just make up crap. I've chosen to believe God and take Him at His Word.
Aren't you all just making up God? Aren't you just saying stuff? What is the basis of your belief?

To avoid hijacking Antony's intro thread, I'll reply in the separate thread Biblical inerrancy? Why? (To Djangojava) (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?p=24211#post24211).

[Wanderer]

Antony,

I myself am in much the same boat as you. The Messrs. Harris and Dawkins have popped up on my reading list, too. But I don't think that I can commit to atheism, or even agnosticism. Why? Simple--when I first had my problems with (at that time) Roman Catholicism, my first thought was to reject Christianity altogether. I stopped attending church, and started attending synagogue, only to discover that I couldn't detach myself from the person of Jesus of Nazareth quite so easily. Because of this, I think that I would have the same--or greater--trouble detaching from God altogether, however rational such a detachment may be. (There was also
a brief period subsequent to this in which I was a Mormon, but that is a digression.)

This leaves me with a problem: what do I do now? I've recently posted some old Bible notes on my "Hi, I'm Wanderer" thread. To my surprise, it's gotten me reading the Scriptures again. But I can no longer regard them as inspired. My current thinking is that maybe "inspiration" as such, has nothing to do with any text, the Bible or otherwise. Maybe inspiration is within the God/human relationship, and the Bible is nothing more than a tool for God to use to "speak" to me. That doesn't mean that every assertion is from "God's own mouth," as it were; it only means that God sends His Spirit to assist and bless His child in Bible reading. (I would say the same for Book of Mormon reading, or for reading any other text...at least, right now I would.)

All that aside, I want you to know that I sympathize with you to a great extent. During my high school years, I spent one year at Del Bufalo Seminary, (of the Society of the Most Precious Blood,) which no longer exists. So I know just how bad it is to have to deal with sitting in the ashes of what used to be your faith, wondering if you've accomplished nothing more than publicly making a jerk out of yourself.

May I recommend the book "The Way Out" by Christopher Lee Nutter, and the movie "Peaceful Warrior?" I thought that they were both helpful. I can't wait for the movie to get out on DVD.

Wanderer

[Daniel]

It is Buddhism without speculative ideas like reincarnation and karma. Stephen Bachelor wrote a book, Buddhism without Beliefs which looks at Buddhism without the speculative ideas. Daniel could probably enlighten us more on this (no pun intended).

But I like puns! :lol:

~

I also like your summation Anthony. Gets right to the point.

Here's my take (rambling aswer).

Buddhism without metaphysics is about 'here and now', the practice if meditation and the investigation of the mind as well as the generation of compassion, warmth and kindness, which leads to actions of the same (these are attributes that others have noted in you Zerbie- hence they think of you as a Buddhist). Without this, one is merely engaging in intellectualism.

Stephen Bachelor's book is a good one. I read it a few years ago. It helped me understand that one did not need to run out and become religious about one's interest in Buddhism. That's not to say that I don't take the matter seriously. If anything, I am far too serious a person for my own good!

Also: There is a school of Buddhism that was brought to America by Chogyam Trunga- who was something of a lightning rod- called Shambhala. It is secular in orientation and open to people of all faiths or none at all- less metaphysical and more practical.

http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/chogyam-trungpa.php

Trungpa's book, Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, is a classic.

[Wanderer]

Some thoughts for you, Djangova...

I used to be very similar to you. Oh, maybe my version of Christianity was different from yours, but I could recite the "Lord, Liar or Lunatic" argument with the best of them. That's probably a major reason that I am not wholly disconnected from Christianity; that line of thinking still manages to make some sense to me.

I used to be an "e-pologist" for Catholicism on an argument board. (And I was, of course, an amateur.) But I ran into a theological problem with no solution. In my case, it had to do with the Catholic Church changing its teaching, when it was supposed to be "infallibly" teaching "eternal (read "unchanging") truth." I won't rehearse the argument here; it may not even be directly relevant to your situation. But I do want to call your attention to the idea that, for you, this is about "truth." Whether any religion likes it or not...that is a trap...and it is a trap for *every* religion, Christianity included. Tell me, do you think that our society should actually have capital punishment on the legal books for things like taking the Lord's name in vain, working on the Sabbath, cursing your parents, or adultery? If you're like most people, your response will be a horrified "No, of course not!" But if that is the case, then you are not being very faithful to your own Scriptures (for which, see Ex 21:17; 31:15; Lev 20:10 and 24:16.)

The truth is, we all make selections out of the Scriptures. That is part and parcel of why the Scriptures are more like a Rorschach (sp?) test than an inspired revelation. The further truth is that there is no such thing as a perfectly objective religion; the individual and subjective part of religion is unavoidable. I know this from experience; I've tried avoiding it.

Anyway...this is just my $0.02 rant. Take it for what you deem it worth.

Wanderer

P.S.: Take it easy on Scotty. You might not agree with his religious choice, but it's his life to choose. Besides, from what I've seen out of him, he seems like a good egg.

[kara speltz]

Just don't call yourself a Christian or claim you know Christ that's all.

The druidic buddhist... yeah whatever. It's like the old asian menus one from column A one from column B... what are the odds of that being true?

Truth by it's very nature is absolute and it may not be understood but it can be accepted by faith and even that faith is a gift of God. May He reveal Himself to you.

Djan: Your arrogance and condemnation of paths that others are on is truly sad. What does the Lord require of you - remember Micah? To seek justice and love mercy and walk HUMBLY with your God.

I have found that those who find it necessary to demean other spiritual practices do so because their own faith is weak. Those who find it necessary to point fingers at others do so because of their own immorality - Jimmy Swaggert comes to mind, but then there's Ted Haggard who just proved it true.

No two spiritual paths are exactly the same. God has a distinctive and unique relationship with each of us. You do not know the mind of God and to suggest that you do is to put yourself on a par with God. I truly believe we never find God in arrogance, only in humility.



kara

[Daniel]

P.S.: Take it easy on Scotty. You might not agree with his religious choice, but it's his life to choose. Besides, from what I've seen out of him, he seems like a good egg.

And a very colorful one at that. :D :love:

The Easter bunny is coming.

Love ya Scotty!

:love: :love: :love: :love:

[scott snedeker]

And a very colorful one at that. :D :love:

The Easter bunny is coming.

Love ya Scotty!

:love: :love: :love: :love:



You guys are great! thanks!

Did you hear that the vetrinarian for EVEREADY battery company was fired?

Apparently he put the batteries BACKWARD into the ENERGIZER BUNNY........:eek:

Sadly, tragically, the poor thing had continuous sex until it died.:'(

It just kept...........and.........and........and.........

:dove:

[andrewlittle]

Steve,

There are any number of threads on this site that address the issues of Biblical authority and interpretation, I encourage you to read them and respond to anything that strikes your fancy. There are plenty of us who love to argue about the notion of "Inerrancy" and its many flaws. Lookin forward to hearin from ya !!

Dave

HEY ANDY! MAKE A LIST FOR HIM WILL YA? I'm too lazy.

...my impression is that Steve just came to drop bombs on Antony in particular, and the other folks here in general. I don't get any sense that he has the inclination to read or discuss anything, largely because he's regurgitating someone else's theology and doesn't have the ability to wrestle it through himself.

I could be wrong - I often am. Should he want to catch up on what's been said so far, or engage in discussion, he can certainly PM me or just look around. The threads aren't tough to find. And the are several new ones started that should give him ample forums to teach us about True Biblical Christianity.

[antonyh]

This leaves me with a problem: what do I do now? I've recently posted some old Bible notes on my "Hi, I'm Wanderer" thread. To my surprise, it's gotten me reading the Scriptures again. But I can no longer regard them as inspired. My current thinking is that maybe "inspiration" as such, has nothing to do with any text, the Bible or otherwise. Maybe inspiration is within the God/human relationship, and the Bible is nothing more than a tool for God to use to "speak" to me. That doesn't mean that every assertion is from "God's own mouth," as it were; it only means that God sends His Spirit to assist and bless His child in Bible reading. (I would say the same for Book of Mormon reading, or for reading any other text...at least, right now I would.)


I would suggest reading Marcus Borg's book, The Heart of Christianity: Rediscovering a Life of Faith.

I think Borg would go with "inspiration is within the God/human relationship."


So I know just how bad it is to have to deal with sitting in the ashes of what used to be your faith, wondering if you've accomplished nothing more than publicly making a jerk out of yourself.


I don't feel like I am sitting in ashes. My views have changed, but only for the better. As for the 'jerk' comment, I will chalk that up to your perceptions of my posts.

[antonyh]

Buddhism without metaphysics is about 'here and now', the practice if meditation and the investigation of the mind as well as the generation of compassion, warmth and kindness, which leads to actions of the same (these are attributes that others have noted in you Zerbie- hence they think of you as a Buddhist). Without this, one is merely engaging in intellectualism.


Very well stated. If anyone is interested in starting a meditation practice, I found the following course on meditation very helpful:

Insight Meditation: A Step-By-Step Course on How To Meditate.
by Sharon Salzberg and Joseph Goldstein.

I also want to say something about meditation that may surprise some of you given my prior posts on this thread. You may find that as you meditate that your soul is filled with God's presence. This is a wonderful experience. I am just careful with this kind of thing because of my years in the Assemblies of God where emotion was often mistaken for an experience with God.

Thomas Merton in his book The Inner Experience: Notes on Contemplation (published after he died) looks at this inner experience of God:


In Zen there seems to be no effort to get beyond the inner self...Zen writers might perhaps contend that they were interested exclusively in what is actually 'given' in their experience, and that Christianity is superadding a theological interpretation and extrapolation on top of the experience itself. But here we come upon one of the distinctive features of Christian, Jewish, and Islamic mysticisms...our inmost "I" exists in God and God dwells in it...Hence the Christian mystical experience is not only an awareness of the inner self, but also, by a supernatural intensification of faith, it is an experiential grasp of God as present within our inner self.


Seems like something very hard to prove using the scientific method. But metaphysics does not operate in the realm of science. An inner experience of God should be honored.

[scott snedeker]

Beautifully insightful posts!:)

Makes me feel warm to read them!

[Diane Vera]

...my impression is that Steve just came to drop bombs on Antony in particular, and the other folks here in general. I don't get any sense that he has the inclination to read or discuss anything, largely because he's regurgitating someone else's theology and doesn't have the ability to wrestle it through himself.

"Regurgitating someone else's theology" is what nearly all fundies do, pretty much by definition. They aren't encouraged to think for themselves. Djangojava specifically believes in blind obedience. As Djangojava puts it:

I've chosen to believe that God knows a few more things than I do and I don't have to understand what he says. I'm better off obeying those things that are clear in Scripture rather than re-writing scripture.

To attempt dialog with a person with the above attitude is an extremely tough challenge. But the Soulforce organization has taken upon itself the challenge of trying to open up the minds of people with precisely the above attitude. I would love to see the regulars on this board try to do a good follow-up to what the ERiders are doing. That would be fascinating to watch.

I could be wrong - I often am. Should he want to catch up on what's been said so far, or engage in discussion, he can certainly PM me or just look around. The threads aren't tough to find. And the are several new ones started that should give him ample forums to teach us about True Biblical Christianity.

For Djangojava's convenience, here's a list of relevant recent threads in the "Faith and Nonviolence" sub-forum:


Liar, Lunatic or Lord (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2556)
Biblical inerrancy? Why? (To Djangojava) (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2555)
The Bible – tradition – and truth (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2479)
Levitical Law, how does one determine? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2553)
Is the Bible against homosexuality? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1909)
Let's be honest with the text (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2282)
Jesus and Zaccheus (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2558)
Responding to "Baker's Evangelical Theological Dictionary" (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2108)
Homosexual relationships in the bible? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1940)
Jewish veiw point of the Levitical sexual laws (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1893)
The Q Gospel (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=213)
Calvinist belief in OT Holy Codes (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=149)
The Bible & Homosexuality (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=172)

[nmwolfboy]

I wanted to take a moment to introduce myself. I hope I'm not the "bad boy":( on the Soulforce board, but I do value the discussions we have been having and plan to stick around for a while.

Welcome Antony! Bad boys, as others have noted, are welcome here; some even compete for the title. :D

I came out after Seminary due to the suicide of a local pastor in the PCA who was discovered to be gay. I realized at that point that coming out and being a whole, honest person was the right thing to do.

How sad for that pastor & those who cared for him/her. i can honestly say that i have never regretted coming out, though i don't think the process ever truly ends, no matter how far out you get! Congrats on reaching your healthy realization.

But now I'm not sure there is a God to make such a call. I'm some where between agnostic and atheist.

Yesterday i came across a quote that really speaks to how i conceptualize God:
"God does not exist. He is being itself beyond essence and existence. Therefore to argue that God exists is to deny him." Paul Tillich
i think Tillich did believe in God, though i've read critics who characterize him as an athiest. From what i've read so far, i'd say he viewed God nontheistically.


I live in Chicago with my partner of three years and hope that the Illinois Civil Unions Bill passes so that I can get legally married. We are cautiously optimistic :)
My partner & i are in a similar situation here in New Mexico. We may end up heading to Canada if we get tired of waiting for our State legislature to do the right thing.

By the way, your intro has prompted quite an interesting thread - again, welcome to Soulforce. :wave:

Pax :dove:
scott

[BronzDragon]

Aren't you all just making up God? Aren't you just saying stuff? What is the basis of your belief?

» Thom says: ☛ This is a valid and strong question. I wonder if any of us can answer that in either direction. I think I will stick with the ancient Gnostic axiom, "Those who speak ..."


Jesus Christ did exist and you have only 3 choices. 1) He was a well intended madman, a lunatic, and simply must be written off as such. 2) He was a cruel liar and led generatios to their death and his legacy continues to lead his followers in other countries to death. Christians are still persecuted and killed. 3) He was who he said he was.

» Thom says: ☛ How about this for a theory.

Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph (or whoever) was an actual historic person. Maybe we have found his bones, maybe not, not important. That he was a Gnostic philosopher of significant intellect and vision, and garnered others of similar vision, and inspired others at least to look for that vision.

Christ was and still is a myth describing an office (world savior) that has been held by other persons, historic and otherwise (ZarathUshtra, Siddhartha).

Someone, sometime, mixed the two, then as the new religion became more political, the story changed to suit those in power, particularly that of the Roman version of Mithraism.

That, because of that mix, the story we have is Myth (a true story whose truth is not the story itself) and nothing more, even if we do root it in history.

[Diane Vera]

I wrote, on the previous page of this thread:

For Djangojava's convenience, here's a list of relevant recent threads in the "Faith and Nonviolence" sub-forum:


Liar, Lunatic or Lord (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2556)
Biblical inerrancy? Why? (To Djangojava) (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2555)
The Bible – tradition – and truth (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2479)
Levitical Law, how does one determine? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2553)
Is the Bible against homosexuality? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1909)
Let's be honest with the text (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2282)
Jesus and Zaccheus (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2558)
Responding to "Baker's Evangelical Theological Dictionary" (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2108)
Homosexual relationships in the bible? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1940)
Jewish veiw point of the Levitical sexual laws (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1893)
The Q Gospel (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=213)
Calvinist belief in OT Holy Codes (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=149)
The Bible & Homosexuality (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=172)


Another thread to add to the above list:

To inerrantists & other conservative Christians: Bible's condoning of rape & slavery? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2563)

[Djangojava]

Hey Antony

I'm a graduate of Covenant and I got interested in this website from a letter they circulated. What they're telling alumni is that the Soulforce Bus (can't remember the name of the organization) is insisting on coming on to the property even though they haven't gained permission. It's not a public facility and it's on top of a mountain. No doubt the police will get involved and that's a shame I don't think anyone wants that. I'd hate it.

Covenant invited them to a particular forum why don't the bus riders take them up on that?

Steve

[Djangojava]

» Thom says: ☛ This is a valid and strong question. I wonder if any of us can answer that in either direction. I think I will stick with the ancient Gnostic axiom, "Those who speak ..."



» Thom says: ☛ How about this for a theory.

Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph (or whoever) was an actual historic person. Maybe we have found his bones, maybe not, not important. That he was a Gnostic philosopher of significant intellect and vision, and garnered others of similar vision, and inspired others at least to look for that vision.

Christ was and still is a myth describing an office (world savior) that has been held by other persons, historic and otherwise (ZarathUshtra, Siddhartha).

Someone, sometime, mixed the two, then as the new religion became more political, the story changed to suit those in power, particularly that of the Roman version of Mithraism.

That, because of that mix, the story we have is Myth (a true story whose truth is not the story itself) and nothing more, even if we do root it in history.

Where do you get that stuff from. Look, the Jewish leaders took Jesus to Pilate who reluctantly had him executed. That's historic Jesus and that is what the gospel's of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are about. It can hardly be disputed. If you take exception to the resurrection that's another thing. But that fact is the 11 faithful apostles, then the "apostle called out of time" Paul, set the world on it's ear and Christianity survived without any political help, quite the contrary, until Constantine. Why would the 11 apostles and then Paul choose a life of persecution and all with the exception of maybe John dying martyrs deaths? People don't die for myths.

No you still have to tell me if you think Jesus was a liar or a lunatic because you certainly don't take him at His word. DUDE! He was killed because He claimed to be God. That's why the Jews took him to Pilate.

So you can drift off into the mumbo jumbo theories and whatever else you want to make up out of your imagination but that's not going to get you to an honest intellectual place.

[antonyh]

Covenant invited them to a particular forum why don't the bus riders take them up on that?


Here is the thread about the Covenant College visit:
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2156

I don't know the answer to that since I'm not in Soulforce leadership. I'll have to let them answer that question.

Did you graduate from Covenant Seminary or Covenant College? Just curious. Thanks.

[Diane Vera]

So you can drift off into the mumbo jumbo theories and whatever else you want to make up out of your imagination but that's not going to get you to an honest intellectual place.

Would you like to set an example of intellectual honesty by visiting some of the threads where some of your arguments are addressed? (I provided a list in an earlier post, above.)

Also, although I'm not a moderator or even an oldtimer here, I'd like to call your attention to the following, in the forum guidelines (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/faq.php?faq=soulforce_faq_item#faq_soulforce_faq_i tem1):

Make an effort to keep your posts relevant to the stated topic of a thread. Please start a new thread if the discussion drifts to another topic.

Since this thread is Antony's intro thread, and since your post is on the kind of topic likely to lead to a lengthy discussion, it seems to me that your post calls for the creation of a separate thread on New Testament history in the "Faith and Nonviolence" sub-forum -- just as I, earlier, created the separate thread Biblical inerrancy? Why? (To Djangojava) (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2555) in reply to one of your posts here.

[Djangojava]

what does someone who believes in the inerrancy of scripture do with a verse like Leviticus 20:13? "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

The law has different compartments or departments. That was the civil law for Isreal. It does tell you what God thinks of homosexuality no matter how you interpret it though.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're trying to take the teeth out of the Bible. It's fine if you want to claim a religion but you really need to investigate Christianity to see if it's compatible with what you hold to be a law written on your heart and that is same sex sex is ok.

[u-dog]

The law has different compartments or departments. That was the civil law for Isreal. It does tell you what God thinks of homosexuality no matter how you interpret it though..

Tell me about those different compartments and departments, Steve. Where in the bible do you read about the distinctions between them? I really am still waiting for somebody to share that with me. its an interesting idea... but where does it come from?


This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're trying to take the teeth out of the Bible. It's fine if you want to claim a religion but you really need to investigate Christianity to see if it's compatible with what you hold to be a law written on your heart and that is same sex sex is ok.

So... the Bible has teeth? would those be Incisors and fangs? for ripping and tearing? or molars... for crushing and mashing? Makes for an interesting spirituality. Especially when you treat the bible as your own private attack dog.:lol:

Seriously though Steve, Do you really imagine that none of us here have "investigated Christianity?" that you are the ONLY ONE who has ever read the scripture carefully? Do you think that any one of us who is both Christian and Gay have not carefully studied our own hearts as well as the scriptures to know if WHAT we are is compatible with WHOSE we are?

A little humility on your part would go down well my boy

[kara speltz]

Tell me about those different compartments and departments, Steve. Where in the bible do you read about the distinctions between them? I really am still waiting for somebody to share that with me. its an interesting idea... but where does it come from?




So... the Bible has teeth? would those be Incisors and fangs? for ripping and tearing? or molars... for crushing and mashing? Makes for an interesting spirituality. Especially when you treat the bible as your own private attack dog.:lol:

Seriously though Steve, Do you really imagine that none of us here have "investigated Christianity?" that you are the ONLY ONE who has ever read the scripture carefully? Do you think that any one of us who is both Christian and Gay have not carefully studied our own hearts as well as the scriptures to know if WHAT we are is compatible with WHOSE we are?

A little humility on your part would go down well my boy

Amen, Dave! I've been out for over thirty years, and I always want to say to these folks, do you honestly think I haven't heard all of that before and that you are suddenly going to make me straight?

Just once I wish Steve would acknowledge that he's not God, and doesn't have all of the answers. This arrogance to me is a sure sign of a weak faith that can not stand up to any thing that questions it.

kara

[antonyh]

My partner & i are in a similar situation here in New Mexico. We may end up heading to Canada if we get tired of waiting for our State legislature to do the right thing.


Nice to meet you Scott. I have some friends who moved to Vancouver and now to Victoria. They like Canada. I hear immigrating there is difficult now.

I saw a link to your blog. I'll be sure to read it soon :)

Peace,

Antony

[Diane Vera]

I've created a separate thread To Djangojava (Steve Glass) (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2568), in which I posted a message to Steve plus also a reply to this post by Kara Speltz (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=24340&postcount=50).

[Wanderer]

Antony--

I guess I owe you an apology. My separation from traditional religious views seems to be much more of a negative emotional experience, than yours now seems to be. I expected that my emotional response was the norm; I guess I should have checked with you, first. (You know what they say about assumptions....)

I hope you didn't take anything I wrote as some kind of insult to you. I certainly didn't mean it that way. I was intending to reflect *my* emotional experience, which, at the time, I thought you might share (...and thus, we're right back to the topic of assumptions.)

Hope to hear from you soon....

Wanderer

[antonyh]

I guess I owe you an apology.


No apology needed. I'm glad you're here.

[Daniel]

Very well stated. If anyone is interested in starting a meditation practice, I found the following course on meditation very helpful:

Insight Meditation: A Step-By-Step Course on How To Meditate.
by Sharon Salzberg and Joseph Goldstein.

I also want to say something about meditation that may surprise some of you given my prior posts on this thread. You may find that as you meditate that your soul is filled with God's presence. This is a wonderful experience. I am just careful with this kind of thing because of my years in the Assemblies of God where emotion was often mistaken for an experience with God.

Anthony- I'm curious. Did you learn meditation from the authors in a group environment or did you learn the practice on your own? Some people find groups helpful, it helps them get 'traction', while others would rather be alone. Not a suggestion here, just an observation. Everyone has their own way.

Your words about God's presence struck a chord with me, though my own terminology is a little different. I simply call it Presence. At times, I don't know what to do about the word God. Perhaps language fails after one goes deep enough into these things. After awhile, it seems that one must rely on metaphor and poetry for explanation for that which defies explanation.

That said, I like my mystery to be knowable. And Presence, if anything, certainly feels that way.

Now there's a contraction!

[antonyh]

Did you learn meditation from the authors in a group environment or did you learn the practice on your own? Some people find groups helpful, it helps them get 'traction', while others would rather be alone. Not a suggestion here, just an observation. Everyone has their own way.


Mostly on my own. I'm still a baby Buddha...the 'monkey mind' (Zen term) still gets the best of me. But meditation has helped me tremendously.


Your words about God's presence struck a chord with me, though my own terminology is a little different. I simply call it Presence. At times, I don't know what to do about the word God. Perhaps language fails after one goes deep enough into these things. After awhile, it seems that one must rely on metaphor and poetry for explanation for that which defies explanation.

That said, I like my mystery to be knowable. And Presence, if anything, certainly feels that way.


God is definitely a term that is weighed down with much baggage. I guess I am just interested in the transformational, experiential reality of Presence (if it appears in my experience).