To Djangojava (Steve Glass)

[Diane Vera]

Since, for whatever reason, Djangojava (Steve Glass) doesn't seem to want to venture outside the "Hello, My Name is..." forum, I'll now post all my replies to him here, in a thread devoted just to him, to avoid further derailing of Antony's intro thread (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2550). I'll also post here my replies to other people's comments about him.

To Steve:

First, who are you, and what led you to this forum? Could you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Second, why have you chosen to believe in Biblical inerrancy?

Third, I would be very interested in your response to the following question you were asked earlier:

even more difficult is the one about stoning our sassy kids:eek:

If we held on to that we'd have no young people left in the world today, actually as I think about it we'd have no one left in the world today:( because the truth is we've all sassed our parents at one time of the other:rolleyes:

And boy are those football players bound for hell after handling those pigskins;) on a Sunday no less - that's got to be a double dose of hell at least:p

Fourth, what do you think of the following comment by Andrew Little about your apparent aims here?

...my impression is that Steve just came to drop bombs on Antony in particular, and the other folks here in general. I don't get any sense that he has the inclination to read or discuss anything, largely because he's regurgitating someone else's theology and doesn't have the ability to wrestle it through himself.

I could be wrong - I often am. Should he want to catch up on what's been said so far, or engage in discussion, he can certainly PM me or just look around. The threads aren't tough to find. And the are several new ones started that should give him ample forums to teach us about True Biblical Christianity.

Care to prove him wrong and set an example of "intellectual honesty"?

[Diane Vera]

[/U]

Amen, Dave! I've been out for over thirty years, and I always want to say to these folks, do you honestly think I haven't heard all of that before and that you are suddenly going to make me straight?

Just once I wish Steve would acknowledge that he's not God, and doesn't have all of the answers. This arrogance to me is a sure sign of a weak faith that can not stand up to any thing that questions it.

kara

I would suspect that his faith is more likely naive than "weak." I would venture to guess that he has never done any serious reading about any non-Christian religions, or even about any other forms of Christianity besides maybe a few different variants of Christian fundamentalism, other than to read fundie caricatures thereof. I would also suspect that, since he was apparently brought up to believe that blind obedience is a virtue (as he pretty much says in one of his posts), he has never dared to question his beliefs in any serious way. Hence he probably just assumes that his beliefs are The Truth, and that this should be obvious to everyone, and that anyone who says otherwise can only be lying or deluded, end of discussion.

[andrewlittle]

I would suspect that his faith is more likely naive than "weak." I would venture to guess that he has never done any serious reading about any non-Christian religions, or even about any other forms of Christianity besides maybe a few different variants of Christian fundamentalism, other than to read fundie caricatures thereof. I would also suspect that, since he was apparently brought up to believe that blind obedience is a virtue (as he pretty much says in one of his posts), he has never dared to question his beliefs in any serious way. Hence he probably just assumes that his beliefs are The Truth, and that this should be obvious to everyone, and that anyone who says otherwise can only be lying or deluded, end of discussion.

Yet another poor sod whose faith will hit the fan when life deals out its infamous realities for which he has no preparation. When you're told that faith leads to Truth and the good life, and then life hits the crapper, you're left holding the "my faith must not be strong enough" bag. Unfortunately, that's when some people find out what being damaged by religion is all about.

[Diane Vera]

Yet another poor sod whose faith will hit the fan when life deals out its infamous realities for which he has no preparation. When you're told that faith leads to Truth and the good life, and then life hits the crapper, you're left holding the "my faith must not be strong enough" bag. Unfortunately, that's when some people find out what being damaged by religion is all about.

I don't think we should be making predictions about how Steve will or won't handle hard times.

In fact, the most narrow-minded forms of Christianity are precisely the kinds of Christianity which have been growing the fastest in those parts of the world where people in general are having the hardest times -- as well as here in the U.S.A. (See the thread I started on Worldwide religious trends (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2573).)

Human evolution is messy. As just one example, some of the ugliest forms of religion seem to be among the hardiest.

[Djangojava]

My only point is and was and is that the Bible clearly speaks of homosexuality as a sin. Your problem is not with me your problem is with the Bible if indeed it is inerrant. There's a ton of churches out there that would claim Christianity that would disagree with this point of view. BUT they do not hold to the doctrine of inerrancy. I don’t hate homosexuals and I’d welcome you as a neighbor or co-worker. My point all along has been what Scripture says. I can’t honestly remember how the thread got here. But…

Why is the doctrine of inerrancy important you ask? As soon as you throw inerrancy out then you can just take or leave whatever you want. This is why I say, "You’re just making up God out of your imagination". This is what most people do these days. Especially those Christians who don't hold to inerrancy. I hold to inerrancy because I hold to the supernatural. IF there is a God who can create this world, IF he became flesh and dwelt among us, IF (in the vast paradoxical mystery of the Trinity) God became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, IF Jesus gave up his life as an atonement for our sins, and IF he was raised from the dead... is it such a stretch to believe he would give folks his thoughts to write down? Is it such a stretch, IF he called Lazarus from the grave after being dead for 4 days... is it such a stretch for Him to make certain that at least in the original manuscripts the Judeo-Christian writings are without error?
Christians debate inerrancy among themselves. Yet I think there is validation for inerrancy. Read Josh McDowell's "Evidence That Demands A Verdict".

Look I don't do bulletin boards and such. I just kept clicking on the one thread I participated in. If I broke some protocol forgive me. I'm just saying it's fine if you don't believe in Judeo/Christian writings just don't try to make them something they're not.

As to the references to Leviticus. Remember that at that time Israel was under a Theocracy. So there is Ceremonial Law, Civil Law, and other goings on. Capital punishment under the Jewish theocracy of Israel is a matter of record. That's what Leviticus is telling us. I don't think the aspect of capital punishment is applicable today. Yet God is speaking out against the practice and in Romans 1 (thousands of years later) speaks of it again.

Scripture is my anchor and I base my life on it. It's not a popular thing to do these days especially on a Gay and Lesbian website. In fact it's probably a really stupid thing to do which is why I won't do it anymore. I gained interest in this site from the Equality Ride aspect. That's the post I responded to. That's why I didn't venture outside this thread. Antony attended Covenant Seminary and there was a discussion about the Equality Ride that actually stopped at Covenant yesterday. I am Covenant alumni. I called a former roommate and a brother-in-law who are professors there to find out how it went and still wait their replies. So that's why I showed up here.
There are plenty of churches out there that don't hold to the doctrine of inerrancy I'm in the minority. Certainly the majority report in the history of Christendom is inerrancy but not so in the last 100 years or so. Those of us who hold to inerrancy are becoming thought of as inflexible and that we've surrendered our intellect. I disagree because I hold that Scripture, (the Bible), only has value so long as it is held to be inerrant. If it contains errors than you can make it say anything you want to. Most folks who call themselves Christians do so these days. I swallow it hook line and sinker. I believe Jonah was swallowed by a fish! Some poor chap was cut out of a fish, alive, in the 70's in the Mediterranean Sea. Even if that hadn't happened I'd still believe it. I believe Jesus was raised from the dead! As Paul says if he didn't, "we (Christians) are to be pitied above all men." Unfortunately this is where we who hold to inerrancy find ourselves these days. That is being pitied. People think we're deluded and deranged. That's fine. You know those feelings too. You know what it's like to be thought of as different even though in your heart of hearts you believe you're right. Well that's how I feel. But it's not my feelings I trust. I trust God's Word and hold it as sacred and inerrant.
So that's all I got. I'm sure I spelled a lot of things wrong, I'm sure I could've said it a whole lot better but there it is. I realize that I’m the one that’s in the minority not only in this venue but at large as well. Hey, we use to get thrown to the lions and burned at the stake. It won’t surprise me that in my lifetime we aren’t officially marginalized in some manner like that. We are killed in many countries and martyrdom continues on. Anyway… this really isn’t the place for me to espouse my views. I’m sorry if I offended anyone.
There's a lot of nonsense Christianity out there today. TV preachers and such saying that you can be healthy and wealthy if you have enough faith. That's not what God called the Apostles to but it sure makes those preachers a lot of money. True biblical Christianity is not the majority report today. Just as most men homosexuals don't wear dresses and imitate Bette Midler and Barbra Streisand. We both get caricatured a lot.
Anyway... I usually don't do these kinds of things. Web bulletin boards in such. So it's been real.

[keltic63]

Why is the doctrine of inerrancy important you ask? As soon as you throw inerrancy out then you can just take or leave whatever you want. This is why I say, "You’re just making up God out of your imagination". This is what most people do these days. Especially those Christians who don't hold to inerrancy. I hold to inerrancy because I hold to the supernatural.


As to the references to Leviticus. Remember that at that time Israel was under a Theocracy. So there is Ceremonial Law, Civil Law, and other goings on. Capital punishment under the Jewish theocracy of Israel is a matter of record. That's what Leviticus is telling us. I don't think the aspect of capital punishment is applicable today. Yet God is speaking out against the practice and in Romans 1 (thousands of years later) speaks of it again.



You took a lot of words to say that you don't "really" believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures. If you did believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, you would not be able to make the statement that I've put in bold print in that second paragraph. So indeed, you have clearly demonstrated here that you have chosen to take or leave whatever you want, and you have made God out of your own imagination. You do not take God at HIS word, yet you criticize us for speaking of our own personal revelation of God. You may say that you believe in inerrancy of the Bible, but your own words have indicted you!

[antonyh]

As soon as you throw inerrancy out...


...God is still there outside your doctrine.


You’re just making up God out of your imagination...


...God is still there outside your imagination.

I'm going to let you in on a big secret. God is bigger than the little fundamentalist box you want to squeeze her in.

[Diane Vera]

Here is a critique (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/) of Evidence that Demands a Verdict on infidels.org, an atheist site. I'm neither a Christian nor an atheist, but I think the critique is definitely worth reading.

[BrentRichards]

I believe Jesus was raised from the dead! As Paul says if he didn't, "we (Christians) are to be pitied above all men." Unfortunately this is where we who hold to inerrancy find ourselves these days. That is being pitied. People think we're deluded and deranged. That's fine. You know those feelings too. You know what it's like to be thought of as different even though in your heart of hearts you believe you're right. Well that's how I feel. But it's not my feelings I trust. I trust God's Word and hold it as sacred and inerrant.
So that's all I got. I'm sure I spelled a lot of things wrong, I'm sure I could've said it a whole lot better but there it is. I realize that I’m the one that’s in the minority not only in this venue but at large as well. Hey, we use to get thrown to the lions and burned at the stake. It won’t surprise me that in my lifetime we aren’t officially marginalized in some manner like that. We are killed in many countries and martyrdom continues on. Anyway… this really isn’t the place for me to espouse my views. I’m sorry if I offended anyone.
There's a lot of nonsense Christianity out there today. TV preachers and such saying that you can be healthy and wealthy if you have enough faith. That's not what God called the Apostles to but it sure makes those preachers a lot of money. True biblical Christianity is not the majority report today. Just as most men homosexuals don't wear dresses and imitate Bette Midler and Barbra Streisand. We both get caricatured a lot.
Anyway... I usually don't do these kinds of things. Web bulletin boards in such. So it's been real.

Steve ... hope "it's been real" doesn't mean you're leaving and won't see this. This message is the first one of yours I've read that seemed REAL to me ... you've hit it on the head. The marginalization you express here is exactly what we feel. You wonder if some day Christians may again be marginalized and killed for who we are? We in the gay community are being marginalized, assaulted, even killed NOW for who we are. Thank you for identifying with that feeling.

So that you know, there are some of us in this "camp" who still hold a high view of the inerrancy/infallibility of Scripture, the literal resurrection of Christ, and the other essentials of evangelical Christianity. But please recognize the difference between an affirmation of Biblical inerrancy and an insistence on an inflexibly LITERALISTIC interpretation of all Bible texts. I don't expect you to agree with me (though I would once have agreed entirely with you, and I still agree with some of what you say) ... you've been clear that you won't. But it is God's place to decide whether my faith is real, not yours. I agree that there are lots of "nonsense Christians" out there. I don't think you are one. I don't think you know that I'm one, either.

Please stick around and discuss. Disagreement is not bad! Just don't forget to bring some grace along, ok?

Brent

[BrentRichards]

I believe Jonah was swallowed by a fish! Some poor chap was cut out of a fish, alive, in the 70's in the Mediterranean Sea. Even if that hadn't happened I'd still believe it.

By the way, not wanting to go farther afield ("off the deep end?") ... I don't care to debate whether Jonah is supposed to be a history or a parable (it doesn't say, so I don't know), but where did you get this story? I've seen a story from the 1890's about a man supposedly rescued alive from a whale after 30 some hours, but that one has been documented as fabricated ... where is this 70's story?

I'm troubled by how some folks seem to want a scientific back-up to Biblical stories. If Jonah is literal, then it is recorded as a MIRACLE (like many other Bible episodes), which means we shouldn't expect to see it happening NATURALLY. A similar documented story, if anything, would WEAKEN the Jonah narrative for me.

Just a thought

[Djangojava]

Yet another poor sod whose faith will hit the fan when life deals out its infamous realities for which he has no preparation. When you're told that faith leads to Truth and the good life, and then life hits the crapper, you're left holding the "my faith must not be strong enough" bag. Unfortunately, that's when some people find out what being damaged by religion is all about.


In April of last year I suffered nerve damage in my left hand, I'm a guitar player of some accomplishement I woke up to play a gig Easter morning and my hand didn't work, in November '06 my best friend drank himself to death, Dec. '06 my wife was diagnosed with cancer and is undergoing chemo, 4/07 my wife is scheduled to have radical mastectomy, my father died last week... and there's even more but that should be enough to make my point.

Andrew my faith is all the stronger. You see when you believe in the inerrancy of God's word you believe that God is sovereign. You don't get to blame stuff on Satan. God is sovereign so these things are dealt to me in His complete control and completely by His will and somehow they are in my best interest. I can give you proof texts if you like.

Christianity is not a walk in the roses. In some sense it makes life harder because I'm left with all the goings of late knowing that it is God who has brought all this into my life. Now I'm not comparing my current circumstance to Job by any means but Job said, "...though He slay me yet will I trust him." and elsewhere in response to his soon to be dead wife, "shall I accept good from God and not bad?"

God is soveriegn that means I don't get to say things like: "It wasn't God's will for Katrina to hit New Orleans". Was he sleeping in that day? Of course it was not only His will but His design!

No, I don't believe in the "gospel of health and wealth". I simply don't see it in Scripture. I do see suffering though. This is from Romans 8:18ff:

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

You tell me what you get out of that. I get this: In this life we will suffer. God subjected his creation to suffering by God's own will and design in hope that it will one day be freed from decay. But one day even my body will be redeemed. That is the glory mentioned in the first verse. The glory that will be revealed in me.

I don't know you, so I can't judge you. I'm just responding to what you say. You're the one judging me are you not? Isn't that what you mean when you said, "Yet another poor sod whose faith will hit the fan..." Hey man it's only life. What gets me through it is the hope of the next.
1 Jn 3
How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

"We shall be like him..." that's what gets me through my wife having cancer, my best friend dying at 49 at his own hands, my father entombed alive in his own flesh from Parkinsons... It's only life and then there is another my friend. That's why I believe in inerrancy. What do I keep? What do I throw out? Hey I'll keep it all! By God's grace I'll keep it all.

[Djangojava]

You took a lot of words to say that you don't "really" believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures. If you did believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, you would not be able to make the statement that I've put in bold print in that second paragraph. So indeed, you have clearly demonstrated here that you have chosen to take or leave whatever you want, and you have made God out of your own imagination. You do not take God at HIS word, yet you criticize us for speaking of our own personal revelation of God. You may say that you believe in inerrancy of the Bible, but your own words have indicted you!

I don't see what you mean. When Jesus was brought the woman caught in adultery he didn't enforce the laws of a theocracy long gone by. What I'm saying is I don't think God wants Christians stoning homosexuals. I do believe he did want the Isrealites to do it and that's what that verse which was quoted in Leviticus was about.

[andrewlittle]

In April of last year I suffered nerve damage in my left hand, I'm a guitar player of some accomplishement I woke up to play a gig Easter morning and my hand didn't work, in November '06 my best friend drank himself to death, Dec. '06 my wife was diagnosed with cancer and is undergoing chemo, 4/07 my wife is scheduled to have radical mastectomy, my father died last week... and there's even more but that should be enough to make my point.

Andrew my faith is all the stronger. You see when you believe in the inerrancy of God's word you believe that God is sovereign. You don't get to blame stuff on Satan. God is sovereign so these things are dealt to me in His complete control and completely by His will and somehow they are in my best interest. I can give you proof texts if you like.
I’ll not reiterate or pick apart these painful experiences in your life – that would be cruel. I would like to examine the belief, however, that God did bad things not only to you, but people you love, for YOUR best interests.
God created all that is, has been and will be, but I cannot comprehend a God who plays you and others in your life like puppets. I especially cannot comprehend a God who will cause pain and suffering for others to teach you something. That seems extremely egocentric, and not on God’s part. Complete control leaves any free action out of the equation. If we have no volition, no choices, no agency in our own lives, in what way are we made in God’s image at all? With no ability for independent thought or action, all that is left is the shell of human automatons.

God is soveriegn that means I don't get to say things like: "It wasn't God's will for Katrina to hit New Orleans". Was he sleeping in that day? Of course it was not only His will but His design!
So you believe that God wrought destruction on the people of New Orleans for some reason. The puppet master wreaks havoc. Interesting theology. God not only created all of creation, but is fully responsible for every act in it. Did I understand that right?

No, I don't believe in the "gospel of health and wealth". I simply don't see it in Scripture. I do see suffering though. This is from Romans 8:18ff:

I see nowhere in that passage that God controls all events, and creates the suffering being discussed.

You tell me what you get out of that. I get this: In this life we will suffer. God subjected his creation to suffering by God's own will and design in hope that it will one day be freed from decay. But one day even my body will be redeemed. That is the glory mentioned in the first verse. The glory that will be revealed in me.
God created a world that continues to evolve – not a puppet stage. In creation we find joy and sorrow, pain and health. To say that God subjects creation to suffering does not equate with God manipulating each and every event. With free-will, and a natural world, comes unpredictability and consequence. Weather happens. Building cities below sea level and then destroying the natural coastal wetlands that absorb the raging power of the sea, leaves a city open to calamity. This destruction was set in motion long ago by the choices of humans – not chosen by those who suffered, but neither intentionally inflicted by God. If God controls all things, there is no sin or evil except that which directly God causes to happen and I certainly don’t buy that. Your attempt at proof-texting does also not prove that to me.

God said creation was good – each and every step of creation. But you seem to think that some parts of it are expendable for the benefit of other parts – other [people’s suffering occurs for your benefit. I believe that is a God of your own imagination, and one that seems fickle and callous. I don’t find that God in the Bible.

Maybe I do need to see your proof-texting to see where you get this.

[Djangojava]

[QUOTE=BrentRichards;24469]By the way, not wanting to go farther afield ("off the deep end?") ... I don't care to debate whether Jonah is supposed to be a history or a parable (it doesn't say, so I don't know), but where did you get this story? I've seen a story from the 1890's about a man supposedly rescued alive from a whale after 30 some hours, but that one has been documented as fabricated ... where is this 70's story?

I saw it in Newsweek or Time years and years ago. I don't know how long the guy had been in the fish but it was a fish.

You know you're right about needing evidence. It does come down to faith. But it is nice when evidence backs up the Bible. In the 1850's there was a dig in the Middle East that discovered that there was a "Beltashazar" who was the son of the Babylonian King who was King defacto in his father's absence. So it proved the book of Daniel. Beltashazar offered Daniel 3rd place in the dream if he could interpret what the bodiless hand had written on the wall... Anyway... It is validating.

I don't think God asks us for a blind leap of faith because we do have the Bible.

Anyway Brent. Thanks for your thoughts. I am just trying to be real. I only got on the site to find out about the Equality Ride which actually visited my old College yesterday. Still haven't heard how it turned out. Covenant invited them to a debate but would not give them free run of the campus which "we" are told was unacceptable to those on the bus. I don't know what happened. Really cool stuff though I think. What an interesting forum.

I do hold that I could be wrong about my views of the Bible. I think there are things that are pretty plain. Using the GLHN grammatic, literal, historical, normative hermenuetic gets real sticky and I see your point.

The best any of us can do is to seek God and try to be true to the word. That's what you're doing Brent and I that's mighty cool.

I have a close lesbian friend and she talks about persecution especially in the media and I relate to what she says. Although I do think Hollywood is cutting the G&L group a much bigger break than they are any sort of Christians.

I'm really embarassed by all the TV preachers who preach "health & wealth" and how if you just have enough faith you can skip the chemo and surgery. Yes I think God still does miracles but it's definitly not the norm. I suppose that must be what makes a miracle a miracle, it's not normal.

Those who hold to the Westminster Confession as espousing a clear view point are getting fewer and further between. I'm glad you believe in inerrancy and the validity of Scripture.

[BrentRichards]

Steve ... I'm sorry to hear of all the painful challenges you're facing. I'll be praying for you.

[tdogg]

The best any of us can do is to seek God and try to be true to the word.


Many of us here have done just that. That we do not hold to the Bible being inerrant does not dictate that we have not searched for God, our God, or that we have not tried to be true to what God wants for us. The arguments on whether or not various scriptures are an accurate translation of the original written words, or even if those original words are an exact replication of what God would have had people write isn't really a significant issue regarding one's faith. My personal spiritual faith has much more to do with my personal relationship with God, the compassion I show to others, and whether or not love drives my thoughts and actions. If all we do is learn the lesson Jesus' life on earth was - LOVE - I believe we are light years ahead of anyone who professes to understand everything about the bible.

It's about LOVE :love: :love: , loving ourselves, loving our fellow human beings, loving God's creations, loving God (our God). To focus on anything else is missing the entire point of all Jesus said and did - and in the long run, isn't that what Christianity is supposed to be about??

By the way, it's your thread, so welcome to the SF forums Steve. Glad you are sticking around, reading and sharing. I hope you take the time to read other threads, and get to know us and what we believe here. You'll find so many loving, kind, compassionate and dedicated people and friends. You can talk about anything here, so if you are indeed searching, start a thread or PM any of us, including me. Glad you are here!

[scott snedeker]

What is Inerrancy of the Bible?

a) The words written are God's own and are law to be dutifully carried out in all instances.

(Gays are abominations and should be killed. Where's my Gun?I have a holy misson to complete! If we don't' God will Destroy the United States and anyone else who permits these abominations to soil our sacred nation!)

b) The words written are God's own and are law to admonish but not carry out necessarily
(Gays are abominations and should be killed but we don't really have to do that anymore, besides I'll go to prison)

c) The words written are God's own but not law. People are free to choose to go against it at the peril of eternal damnation

(Gays are not abominations but are not entitled to make love to the one to which they are attracted and holds their heart, because then they indeed become abominations. God gave them the trait of attraction to the same sex to make them second-class humans. Sort of an abomination lite to which Clergy are here to remind that they have no right to this joy in living but don't deserve to die either. Not like in the old days of the inquisition which is bad taste to bring up anyway.

Unlike heterosexuals, who favored by God, have entitlement and blessing to make love to the one to which they are attracted and hold their heart.)

d) The words written are God's own, the purpose of which are, by design, not obvious so as to provoke thought and spiritual growth.

(I believe homosexuality to be a special gift that only one in ten are given. God loves all and hates none. Leviticus is written as a test of this belief and an evercise prepare me for real life. God does not hate, regardless of who claims to speak for him. His purpose is for me to realize that any message that claims he hates is false, even if it is written in scripture. This exercise, reconciling Unconditional love with Leviticus, was needed to cement my sense of entitlement to live true to my gay nature. Any person acting or speaking against gays in the name of their god is but a trivial threat now by comparison.