Andy's off the deep end - help

[andrewlittle]

I’m not sure where I should, or if I should, post this. I chose this sub-forum because it’s where I post most of my stuff, I guess. Going through a difficult time, it is my habit to engage in deep soul-searching – digging through he rubble in my mind and trying to be aware of the changes that each bout of depression eventually usher forth (I describe these times as “dark holes”, but they have their uses.)

On a PM, someone asked a question that has been rolling around in my head. They asked, “Why, as a straight man, and pastor wannabe at that, are you so strident in your defense of GLBT people?” The easy answer was that they, like me, are God’s children and I default to including more than excluding. The easy answer seemed to suffice for him, but it has been toying with my brain since.

Do you have the courage to peek inside the head of a mad man doing his “self-help” psychobabble. If so, I’d appreciate your critical thoughts on what I am saying.

On another thread, in a brief essay called “Continuum” (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=15153&postcount=30), I told a short story of growing up a little effeminate and crocheting for therapy, as well as my father’s violent reaction to this. I have pretty much wrestled out my relationship with my father (post mortem) over the years, and don’t perceive much value as I continue mining that thread of my life. This seems to be more central to who I am, rather than reactionary.

I have an affinity with GLBT people. But why? It’s not just sensitivity to justice issues, although that is by all means true. It’s not just that I graduated from a seminary that is GLBT affirming and considers homophobia an oppressive institutionalized prejudice – that’s actually the reason I chose to go there. It’s deeper and more visceral than that.

I am also not latently gay sexually – at least as far as I can tell. I have had some very close, intimate friendships with males (more commonly with females, BTW), and a few gay men. While they have been significant in my life, I have not had any sexual feelings for them at all, nor any other men (other than way back in early puberty). I love women – love to be around them – am fascinated by them, actually. I am sexually attracted to women generally, and my wife very specifically. I can honestly say that, while I embrace gays, one aspect of which I have no concept is the sexual attraction. I have gotten past any “yuck” response, but am left going “hmmm”.

There is a stereotype that I have found to be quite true overall. GLBT folk, generally, have more expansive minds – are more open to new thoughts and intellectual exploration. (For those who don’t quite fit this bill, please forgive the over-arching generalization – I am sure you have other qualities that make you very special.) This is definitely one aspect with which I find affinity. It isn’t limited to GLBT, but I must say that I find a lower percentage of hetero’s having this openness. Intellectual stimulation (ooh – is that the same as mental masturbation – oh, sorry) isn’t the only reason, however.

Both my wife and I have been asked repeatedly if we are lesbian and gay (respectively, to just to state the obvious). We don’t quite fit the molds of straight people – husband and wife, I suppose. We have even been asked if we married out of “convenience” – an only slightly veiled intrusion to satisfy someone’s prurient interests. We have both been married before to people who were most definitely gender-straight. We are each a little gender-bent, we think, as do others in positions of ecclesiastical authority (but that was another post). We are also both cognizant that identifying as GLBT allies has its downfalls and comes with a price – certainly not the price our sisters and brothers pay, but a price nonetheless. If it was purely a choice, I would have to say that it wouldn’t be the brightest choice a straight couple could make – from a practical point of view, that is.

So, I’m wrestling with the notion of being somewhere on that sexual continuum that is out of the “norm” (whatever the hell that is). Actually, do we fall in a couple of places on the continuum, rather than an isolated spot? Do we have a sense of “family” with GLBT generally, and quite a few GLBT folk specifically, due to being, at least in part, gay and lesbian? This part doesn’t include sexual attraction but, as has been stated many times, homosexuality is not JUST about sexuality. Those parts of our beings falls somewhere else on the continuum. We feel specially matched – each a gift of God for the other, actually – because of our peculiarities.

Denial of religious or civil rights based on sexuality feels very personal to both of us. It isn’t a feeling of, “Oh, those poor GLBT”. It’s a feeling of personal outrage and denial. It’s a feeling that my own flesh and blood are being ostracized. It’s visceral in a way that I cannot conceive of “straight” people feeling. Again, this could just be rationalization or generalization on another scale. I don’t know. Am I nuts?

Anyway, if you want to comment critically (other than just negative criticism, which I can live without right now), I would appreciate your thoughts on where we are – well, where I am specifically.

[u-dog]

be spiritual? My wife and I feel strongly "at home" at the Mcc church where we attend on Sunday evenings. This isn't JUST about "Oh we are here among our own people" its also about being among GOD'S people of being in the company of the smelly shepherds that came to the manger, among the lepers that Jesus healed, among the samaritans, among the tax-collecters, the bleeding women, the blind, the lame... among all of those people whom society thought were sick and sinful but who were in fact not. Jesus spent his whole earthly ministry among such people and I believe that while he LOVES everyone, he continues to be strongly present in the midst of the outcasts.

The Kingdom of God enters from the margins, breaking off pieces of the Kingdom of this world at the edges. It makes sense that you might feel a yearning to be among GLBT people ... because thats where Jesus is.

Just a thought. We love you Andy! and if people think you are gay... take it as a compliment ;)

[dsdrane]

Mornin'!

You and your wife must have honorary status by now, yes?

I've always felt that the "gay continuum/spectrum" needed, at the very least, a Z axis, but, honestly, I don't even think 3 dimensions will cover it.

As I think I've mentioned before, I'm definitely a Kinsey 6; I'm way gay. However, this doesn't normally translate into an easily-recognizable stereotype. Some see my "gayness" right away, whereas others are shocked (shocked!).

I've always felt that my gayness transcended sex in every way that it does for a straight person. It's more orientation than sexual; it colors how I read and react to the world around me. It's steeped in difference.

Case in point: I came out to myself while on a trip to China. Kinda unique, right? Looking back now, it totally makes sense. This trip was while I was doing my junior year abroad in Germany. My best friend (and subconscious love interest) was doing his year in China. We made plans for me to visit over a long break in early Spring (this is March of 1988). By the time I left, I had been in Germany for about 7 months, constantly struggling to improve my German, so I already felt even more of an outsider than I did growing up back home in Maine. Then I find myself in China. Whoa! Tall, dirty-blonde (at the time), longish hair, an earring, and Western clothing, people flat out stared at me as we toured around. No pretense at all, just blatant staring. I don't think I've been so different in my life.

At home -- even in Germany -- I could blend. (My best moment in Germany was when a German woman with an American boyfriend mistook me for German.) Not in China; I stuck out like a sore thumb. And I think this was enough of a shock to my system that I could finally recognize and embrace the difference I had felt all my life. Naturally, the fact that I had a (now irrefutably) huge crush on the friend I was visiting played its part, too.

Suddenly everything made sense and I was thrilled.

I was also grateful because I had seen and felt what it was like to be immediately recognized as different. How many (ostensibly) straight, white men have that opportunity? It really rocked my world, and it's something I've kept with me ever since.

Forgive the ramble, but I think it speaks to orientation -- life orientation. For whatever reason, Andy, you have a uniqueness that you yourself can recognize and it gives you vantage points from which you can see or feel things that others cannot. Back in the 90s, "queer" was in vogue, and I always took that term to mean way more than gay. To me it meant different/strange (which is, in fact, its definition...convenient, eh?)

Perhaps it's our shared sense of queerness that binds us.

Whatever it is, I thank God you're in the big tent, Andy...you big queer!

:love: :cookie:

[scott snedeker]

The strong passion you demostrate is suggestive to me of an emotional "escrow." I suspect the connection may be attacks of self-esteem that we may have in common. MY issue growing up gay of course was being labelled a worthless deviant, an indentity I ingested causing self-loathing , worthlessness and disentitlement in comparison to any one else.

For me the best feeling countermeasure is watching someone with the same problem overcome it and see themselves in a new way. From worthless to derserving and content with themselves. To me that feels like revenge and I share the feeling of healing. (bad rhyme, yuk!)

To react to this abuse of another reflects a growing sense of liking yourself.

[Jennifer5]

I completely understand what you are saying Andy. I identify as straight (although try to keep an open mind about things) and find myself feeling the same way about the GLBT community. In fact, I have actually lost many friends over the fact that I support gay rights, and won't tolerate them bashing those I care about.

The GLBT community I think is the most welcoming community you'll ever find. You don't have to fit into a certain prototype to be welcomed with open arms. When someone says something against a GLBT person or making rude jokes, I always find myself wanting to say that I'm lesbian or bi, just to shut them up. Andy, if your feelings on this topic are crazy then you're not alone... you just described almost exactly how I feel about things. :love:

[Zerbie]

:love: Andy darlin' your words make complete sense. It is sad that the world we live in pushes us to analyze these things, as if caring were something strange.

I've been where you are many times. As someone without a sexual/romantic orientation, I've skated back and forth along that continuum my entire life, always feeling myself to belong at nearly every point on it, with the result that I've always felt outside of it as well. Am I straight? Apparently so. Am I bisexual. Apparently so. Am I lesbian? Apparently not, but ten years ago the answer was "apparently so." I don't know what to call myself because where I feel myself to be on that continuum is different not only every day but every HOUR.

You are right. It's about so much more than sex. It's about emotional connection, personal expression, ways of perceiving and being in the world. It's about caring, empathy, imagination, and dedication to justice, compassion, and spirituality.

If the world says you should assess yourself for which pigeon-hole you belong in, implicitly challenging the validity of your sexual/emotional responses, then the world is short-sighted and ignorant of its own propensity to cut off huge chunks of your capacity for love, compassion, spirituality, friendship, fairness, and justice.

Of course you feel it when the society around you condemns your friends and neighbors. I do too. If I had never fallen in love with that girl 12 years ago, I would feel the same way about LGBT issues that I do now - I did before I met her, after all. They are condemning people for their capacity to love and be loved! How could that not hurt a caring soul like you? They demand that millions of gay (queer) people stifle the love in their hearts from ever being expressed, then claim shock and horror when that stifled energy breaks forth in out-of-control ways (married pastors with male prostitutes being what I have in mind, I'm sure there are other scenarios.) They even demand that you stifle your voice for compassion or be judged suspect by association. The question "why" should not even be asked, but they ask it all the time.

Andy, I think you are running into the equivalent of what shocked and traumatized me as a little girl of about 9 or so. I saw TV news about thousands of gay men dying of a terrifying new disease (which would later be called AIDS), and I saw that no one was helping them. A "Christian leader" interviewed (this was my first ever exposure to a Christian) said God was exterminating the homosexuals. I screamed LIAR and called my mother to the room to watch the report with me. I asked her to please help save the dying men who were being abandoned. My mother looked at me with a twisted, horrified gaze, backed away from me, and gasped, "WHY?!"

I was traumatized. "Why?" is an unanswerable question. If a 3 year old is dying and you call for help, the person you call doesn't gasp, "WHY?!" If a grandmother is dying and you call for help, they don't ask "WHY?!" They just help. The question is the problem.

[Jennifer5]

Perfectly said Zerbie! :love:

[Diane Vera]

On another thread, in a brief essay called “Continuum” (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=15153&postcount=30), I told a short story of growing up a little effeminate and crocheting for therapy, as well as my father’s violent reaction to this. I have pretty much wrestled out my relationship with my father (post mortem) over the years, and don’t perceive much value as I continue mining that thread of my life. This seems to be more central to who I am, rather than reactionary.

I have an affinity with GLBT people. But why? It’s not just sensitivity to justice issues, although that is by all means true. It’s not just that I graduated from a seminary that is GLBT affirming and considers homophobia an oppressive institutionalized prejudice – that’s actually the reason I chose to go there. It’s deeper and more visceral than that.

[...]

There is a stereotype that I have found to be quite true overall. GLBT folk, generally, have more expansive minds – are more open to new thoughts and intellectual exploration. (For those who don’t quite fit this bill, please forgive the over-arching generalization – I am sure you have other qualities that make you very special.) This is definitely one aspect with which I find affinity. It isn’t limited to GLBT, but I must say that I find a lower percentage of hetero’s having this openness. Intellectual stimulation (ooh – is that the same as mental masturbation – oh, sorry) isn’t the only reason, however.

Both my wife and I have been asked repeatedly if we are lesbian and gay (respectively, to just to state the obvious). We don’t quite fit the molds of straight people – husband and wife, I suppose. We have even been asked if we married out of “convenience” – an only slightly veiled intrusion to satisfy someone’s prurient interests. We have both been married before to people who were most definitely gender-straight. We are each a little gender-bent, we think, as do others in positions of ecclesiastical authority (but that was another post).

As you say, you're a bit "gender bent." Since being "gender bent" is also part of the stereotype of gays, you're naturally a target of anti-gay prejudice too.

We are also both cognizant that identifying as GLBT allies has its downfalls and comes with a price – certainly not the price our sisters and brothers pay, but a price nonetheless. If it was purely a choice, I would have to say that it wouldn’t be the brightest choice a straight couple could make – from a practical point of view, that is.

But, since you yourself are "gender bent" and hence affected by anti-gay prejudice, fighting against anti-gay prejudice is indeed in your own longterm best interests. Your other alternative, which would be just to distance yourself from gays, might seem more advantageous in the short term, but wouldn't really protect you in the long run.

Recognition of the interconnectedness of prejudices against gays and against "gender bent" people is the reason why the "gay community" eventually became the "GLBT community."

[andrewlittle]

My musings above are not what is causing me difficulties, i.e. depression, but some of the useful things that come from those otherwise difficult periods. I've been taking the opportunity presented by the question I was asked to explore this issue further.

As you say, you're a bit "gender bent." Since being "gender bent" is also part of the stereotype of gays, you're naturally a target of anti-gay prejudice too.

But, since you yourself are "gender bent" and hence affected by anti-gay prejudice, fighting against anti-gay prejudice is indeed in your own longterm best interests. Your other alternative, which would be just to distance yourself from gays, might seem more advantageous in the short term, but wouldn't really protect you in the long run.

Recognition of the interconnectedness of prejudices against gays and against "gender bent" people is the reason why the "gay community" eventually became the "GLBT community."

I don't feel targeted, as such. The price paid is well worth it. I don't, and can't conceive of ever, feeling sorry for that price. In that regard, I'm not the least bit in need or even want of "protection". If I was I wouldn't use my name on the forums. Ultimately, while waiting for a church presents its difficulties, I don't want a church that wouldn't have me knowing exactly who I am.

I could be wrong, and if I am please forgive me, but I sense some "lecturing" going on with your last post. I am the one who owned my feelings, and I have already signed on for the ride - I am just wondering about life - mine and others - while on the journey. I'm already committed, and not questioning the value of the commitment, just reasoning through the underlying impetus and implications.

[andrewlittle]

:love: Andy darlin' your words make complete sense. It is sad that the world we live in pushes us to analyze these things, as if caring were something strange.
I hear that loud and clear.

You are right. It's about so much more than sex. It's about emotional connection, personal expression, ways of perceiving and being in the world. It's about caring, empathy, imagination, and dedication to justice, compassion, and spirituality.

If the world says you should assess yourself for which pigeon-hole you belong in, implicitly challenging the validity of your sexual/emotional responses, then the world is short-sighted and ignorant of its own propensity to cut off huge chunks of your capacity for love, compassion, spirituality, friendship, fairness, and justice.
I'm going to paraphrase (and abuse) an old Groucho Marx saying. I'm not the least bit sure I want to belong to any culture that would have me conform to its norms. I am finding a freedom and joy in this exercise - not a desire to step back and become "small" again. There's comfort in knowing that my oddities - things I and others have previously pegged as "Andy's weirdness" - are not peculiar after all, but maybe just a different place along a continuum of being.

I was traumatized. "Why?" is an unanswerable question. If a 3 year old is dying and you call for help, the person you call doesn't gasp, "WHY?!" If a grandmother is dying and you call for help, they don't ask "WHY?!" They just help. The question is the problem.
Thanks for sharing that story. It is powerful, indeed. The need for self-definition, while seemingly natural, also asks, "why?" I think this is the built-in habit of pigeon-holing ourselves. I'm peeking out of mine and wondering, "what more could I be?"

[BrentRichards]

For what it's worth, Andy, let me just say thanks. There aren't enough of us gay folk to be heard on our own without the voice of you allies added in.

In the NT (as you probably know) the word "compassion" has to do with being moved "in the bowels" ... to the core. You don't have to be "bent" to be concerned for us, just Christ-like!

Thanks again!

[superhippy7890]

Andy I would also like to say thak you for speaking out for me and other gays. I would like to offer some advice, but I don't think I quite understand.

[BruceChris]

My computer is down, so I have to use the one at the church, and that means getting on when the office person isn't here.

I have long been a straight member of the gay community; it's where I begin to feel at home. And yes, I do often find myself attracted to tall, rangy tomboys, (who, somehow, always manage to be attracted to each other.......

Hey, Andy, I suspect that it just means that you're one of the Good Guys.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Daniel]

I have an affinity with GLBT people. But why? It’s not just sensitivity to justice issues, although that is by all means true. It’s not just that I graduated from a seminary that is GLBT affirming and considers homophobia an oppressive institutionalized prejudice – that’s actually the reason I chose to go there. It’s deeper and more visceral than that.


I am also not latently gay sexually – at least as far as I can tell.

My sense is that your concern may have nothing to do with sex or being latently gay, which, if I an put it this way, is an objective view of things. What you seem to be indicating in your post overall is something else entirely, and this strikes me as a subjective view of things, or to put it another way, an inside-to-outside view.

Clearly, you experience your inner being as being 'other' than what conventional society considers the norm.

There is a stereotype that I have found to be quite true overall. GLBT folk, generally, have more expansive minds – are more open to new thoughts and intellectual exploration. (For those who don’t quite fit this bill, please forgive the over-arching generalization – I am sure you have other qualities that make you very special.) This is definitely one aspect with which I find affinity. It isn’t limited to GLBT, but I must say that I find a lower percentage of hetero’s having this openness. Intellectual stimulation (ooh – is that the same as mental masturbation – oh, sorry) isn’t the only reason, however.

I have often thought this myself, and not because gay people are more intelligent! Rather, my sense is that gay people can have, by virtue of their 'otherness', a subtle, yet profound, qualitative difference in how they experience the world. My opinion is that this difference speaks to something that is alluded to in Eastern perspectives. And this is an experience of one's 'self' that goes beyond 'subject-object' consciousness. As such, one can feel at sea once one's identification as a being starts to be disconnected from concerns of the ego- power, money- status. This pushes one into 'otherness' pretty quick. Of course, one doesn't have to be gay to have this experience. It is available to anyone at any time if one can see through the 'game' that is played on the part of the ego to control everything in its path. Seeing that gay people realize early on that they can't even get in the game, the jig is up for many.

Both my wife and I have been asked repeatedly if we are lesbian and gay (respectively, to just to state the obvious). We don’t quite fit the molds of straight people – husband and wife, I suppose.

My sense is that your are simply more highly evolved! You are more in touch with what they Buddhist call Rigpa, one's true nature.

RIGPA is a Tibetan word which in general means 'intelligence' or 'awareness.' In Dzogchen, however, the highest teachings in the Buddhist tradition of Tibet, rigpa has a deeper connotation, 'the innermost nature of the mind.' The whole of the teaching of Buddha is directed towards realizing this, our ultimate nature, the state of omniscience or enlightenment--a truth so universal, so primordial that it goes beyond all limits, and beyond even religion itself.

Denial of religious or civil rights based on sexuality feels very personal to both of us. It isn’t a feeling of, “Oh, those poor GLBT”. It’s a feeling of personal outrage and denial. It’s a feeling that my own flesh and blood are being ostracized. It’s visceral in a way that I cannot conceive of “straight” people feeling. Again, this could just be rationalization or generalization on another scale. I don’t know. Am I nuts?

No. I don't think you are nuts. Far from it. In fact, in light of what I have mused about above, you are ahead of the curve. And because you are so far out ahead, it may seem, because everyone is behind you, that you are alone.

For interesting reading on the subject-object awareness you might find this book interesting. (Please don't think I am trying to push Buddhism on you. I'm simply endeavoring to give your concern an alternate framework, which in itself, is not 'better' than the one you are used to, but being difference, can help one 'see' one's habits of perception. )

Zen and Us by Karlfried Graf Durckhiem

Another thought comes to mind here.

To plant trees, one has to dig deep into the soul....or rather.....soil. That's not a depression. That's a place for something to grow.

[Pablo Rafael]

I have an affinity with GLBT people. But why? It’s not just sensitivity to justice issues, although that is by all means true. It’s not just that I graduated from a seminary that is GLBT affirming and considers homophobia an oppressive institutionalized prejudice – that’s actually the reason I chose to go there. It’s deeper and more visceral than that.



Only one answer to that, Andy
It's because we're adorable! ;)

You think I'm joking; I'm not! Well, not totally.

Daniel says things so well. Darn show off! ( I resent people smarter and more eloquent than I am.) :mad:

I ponder why are there gay people in the world. What is God's purpose in creating us? From the gay people I have have met I see compassion and graciousness in abundance. I see a caring community that doesn't fit into the mainsteam (isn't "playing the game") There is great value to those who are different.

Look at the people who post here. How in the world can a group of people with such divergent and conflicting views on religion and life ever converse without getting into endless arguments? There are occasional spats, but I am astounded at how willing eveyone is to listen and debate honestly and kindly. The amount of love and acceptance is amazing to me. (If only we could have as much of this in our Christian churches.)

I think that since we don't fit into the mold, we are less constrained by what society demands. I especiallty find the masculine, tough-guy image that our society requires men to adopt as being very destructive. Since we as gay men aren't allowed to be included in this group, we are more open to exploring other avenues of expresssion; we are more open to becoming what God wants us to be.

I think that you are an exceptional person who is willing to look deeper into people ignoring the falsehood that exists on the surface. I think it is a gift given from God. It is also a gift from God to us to have people like you who are willing to understand those who are different from yourself.

Plus again, we are so darn adorable, who wouldn't love us? :D

And do I think you've gone off the deep end? Absolutely. People told me I went there years ago. And you know what? The best water is in the deep end. Sanity is way overrated.


Tu Amigo, Pablo

[andrewlittle]

Only one answer to that, Andy
It's because we're adorable! ;)
Indeed you are. How stupid - looking fro an answer that was right in front of my face all along. Okay, now that means I have to adore you - that's easy, as long as it doesn't mean I have to play nicely. ;) ;) ;)

And do I think you've gone off the deep end? Absolutely. People told me I went there years ago. And you know what? The best water is in the deep end. Sanity is way overrated. Tu Amigo, Pablo

Exactamente, mi amigo. And who would know better than us? Okay, apart from BruceChrist and u-dog, that is.

[Diane Vera]

I don't feel targeted, as such.

Maybe not now, but you certainly could be. For example, physical violence against random people on the street who happen to "look gay" does still occur. Likewise, anyone who would discriminate against gays for whatever reason would be likely also to discriminate against people who "look gay."

The price paid is well worth it. I don't, and can't conceive of ever, feeling sorry for that price. In that regard, I'm not the least bit in need or even want of "protection". If I was I wouldn't use my name on the forums. Ultimately, while waiting for a church presents its difficulties, I don't want a church that wouldn't have me knowing exactly who I am.

I could be wrong, and if I am please forgive me, but I sense some "lecturing" going on with your last post. I am the one who owned my feelings, and I have already signed on for the ride - I am just wondering about life - mine and others - while on the journey. I'm already committed, and not questioning the value of the commitment, just reasoning through the underlying impetus and implications.

I'm sorry my post made you feel "lectured." Also, I'm sorry if my post came across as questioning your commitment. I was just responding to what appeared to be a statement by you that your strong support for gay rights might be seen as being against your own best interests. As I've explained, it seems to me that it is in your own longterm best interests, even though you may have had to pay a price in the short term.

I personally feel very strongly that "queers" of various different kinds are all in essentially the same boat.

[andrewlittle]

Maybe not now, but you certainly could be. For example, physical violence against random people on the street who happen to "look gay" does still occur. Likewise, anyone who would discriminate against gays for whatever reason would be likely also to discriminate against people who "look gay."
That is, I guess, where I have at least a slight advantage. While somewhat effeminate, I am also quite stocky. I have to minimize my size (not height) when approaching people because I evidently make them uncomfortbale - especially women by themselves and such. So, generally, I walk around quite confident that I can take care of myself. Well, that and a 3rd dan black belt.

I'm sorry my post made you feel "lectured." Also, I'm sorry if my post came across as questioning your commitment. I was just responding to what appeared to be a statement by you that your strong support for gay rights might be seen as being against your own best interests. As I've explained, it seems to me that it is in your own longterm best interests, even though you may have had to pay a price in the short term.

I personally feel very strongly that "queers" of various different kinds are all in essentially the same boat.

I really didn't think that you were, but I've found the best way to know for sure is to ask. I do agree - on both counts, actually - caring for my sisters and brothers is in my best interest, and I am "queer" in many respects. That is why the affinity, I think. I just hadn't wrapped my head around that before I started this thread. It's actually a freeing concept for me - like a light came on inside my psyche. I must say I like the idea of not being "weird" but being "queer" in some way.

I made the comment to Jamie some time back that the Soulforce forums felt like a "home" to me. I was considering leaving (not important) and I felt homeless. Now, I understand that feeling much better.

[tdogg]

Zerbie: perhaps not so much no sexual/romantic orientation, but more of an all-encompassing sexual/romantic orientation - no limits, no lines, no boxes...just a thought I had while reading your post.

Andy, without taking the time needed to really get into all your words emotionally and intellectually: What I see in my GLBTQ friends is open-mindedness, compassion (and passion), forthrightness about themselves (when they finally get 'there'), ability to empathize and see another's point of view through their eyes, steadfastness, genuineness, clear ability to handle a debate (isn't that a necessity!), a subtle knowledge that we know who we are and where we are going and how rough the ride might be getting there...More so than my straight friends and family - in 'general'.

But, it's not limited to GLBTQ population. Many are they who have the traits we have needed to get through our journey, the "Queer community" is perhaps not so much gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender - but perhaps encompassing all who can feel with compassion, stand up for themselves and others like them with passion and steadfastness, always there to lend a hand, a heart, a prayer.

That's the great thing about God's creation - diversity. It's not limited to gays and lesbians, it's all things. You are such a wonderful Soulforce family member, I cannot imagine these forums without you. When I read your posts, think of you, try to soak in the emotions you are feeling through your words - I don't think of you as Andy, the straight man defender of homosexual rights. I see you as Andy, my brother, my teacher, my friend - just who you are ANDY. Don't ever let anyone put labels or lines around you. Be yourself, because you are such a blessing and a gift to all of us here. :love:

[ladyinred]

One word, perhaps unique in perspective? Uniquely you.

[ladyinred]

One word, perhaps unique in perspective? Uniquely you.I like the quotes: old Groucho Marx saying. I'm not the least bit sure I want to belong to any culture that would have me conform to its norms. I am finding a freedom and joy in this exercise - not a desire to step back and become "small" again. There's comfort in knowing that my oddities - things I and others have previously pegged as "Andy's weirdness" - are not peculiar after all, but maybe just a different place along a continuum of being.

[andrewlittle]

The Kingdom of God enters from the margins, breaking off pieces of the Kingdom of this world at the edges. It makes sense that you might feel a yearning to be among GLBT people ... because thats where Jesus is.

Just a thought. We love you Andy! and if people think you are gay... take it as a compliment ;)
Actually, I always have.
Perhaps it's our shared sense of queerness that binds us.

Whatever it is, I thank God you're in the big tent, Andy...you big queer!

:love: :cookie:
:love: :love: :love:
Andy, if your feelings on this topic are crazy then you're not alone... you just described almost exactly how I feel about things. :love:
As always, so sweet.
Am I straight? Apparently so. Am I bisexual. Apparently so. Am I lesbian?
I agree. Well, up to the last one. I'm not sure I could ever qualify for that honor.
In the NT (as you probably know) the word "compassion" has to do with being moved "in the bowels" ... to the core. You don't have to be "bent" to be concerned for us, just Christ-like!

But I like being bent - and Christ-like, of course. It's just that I'm better at the first.
Andy I would also like to say thak you for speaking out for me and other gays. I would like to offer some advice, but I don't think I quite understand.
You don't need to to affer advice or to thank me. When I speak out for you, I speak out for me. If I stay silent for you, I'm abandoning myself. Loving you, I love myself. Seems simple when I put into words.
I have long been a straight member of the gay community; it's where I begin to feel at home. And yes, I do often find myself attracted to tall, rangy tomboys, (who, somehow, always manage to be attracted to each other.......
Ooh, Bruce, could we compare notes, my friend. Of course, that was before meeting my lovely, loving, gender-bending, better half.
My sense is that your are simply more highly evolved! You are more in touch with what they Buddhist call Rigpa, one's true nature. (In a kind of neanderthal kind of way) No. I don't think you are nuts. Far from it. In fact, in light of what I have mused about above, you are ahead of the curve. And because you are so far out ahead, it may seem, because everyone is behind you, that you are alone.
To plant trees, one has to dig deep into the soul....or rather.....soil. That's not a depression. That's a place for something to grow.
Ultimately, every depression has resulting in amazing growth. I am the fruit of my emotional wanderings (pun intended).
I see you as Andy, my brother, my teacher, my friend - just who you are ANDY. :love:
(Blushing) :love: :love: :love:
One word, perhaps unique in perspective? Uniquely you.
As are you. As are we all, when we let us just be.

You have all fed me in the hard work of dealing with self-discovery. In the process, however, I have to take the time for a little self-kindness and ego soothing. You've all helped with that, too.

Thank you all so much. I do love you all, and I am overjoyed that our paths ahve crossed.

[kara speltz]

Actually, I always have.

:love: :love: :love:

As always, so sweet.

I agree. Well, up to the last one. I'm not sure I could ever qualify for that honor.

But I like being bent - and Christ-like, of course. It's just that I'm better at the first.

You don't need to to affer advice or to thank me. When I speak out for you, I speak out for me. If I stay silent for you, I'm abandoning myself. Loving you, I love myself. Seems simple when I put into words.

Ooh, Bruce, could we compare notes, my friend. Of course, that was before meeting my lovely, loving, gender-bending, better half.

Ultimately, every depression has resulting in amazing growth. I am the fruit of my emotional wanderings (pun intended).

(Blushing) :love: :love: :love:

As are you. As are we all, when we let us just be.

You have all fed me in the hard work of dealing with self-discovery. In the process, however, I have to take the time for a little self-kindness and ego soothing. You've all helped with that, too.

Thank you all so much. I do love you all, and I am overjoyed that our paths ahve crossed.

Dearest Andy: You are such a gem. I loved the way you gathered all this together. Hang on to all of this when you're feeling down and now how deeply loved and appreciated you are. kara

[revtj]

Andy,

I grew up in the Deep South, with the exception of living 3 years in Chicago while in seminary. One day my best friend asked me, "How come all Southern men talk like they're gay?" I had to laugh because I knew what he was getting at.

I thought about this when Ann Coulter made her hateful attack on John Edwards. Mr. Edwards talks like a great many Southern men, with a sweet drawl; also like some gay men, myself included, but it doesn't make him gay.

I am tired of being judged by this arbitrary "straight" standard. I think we would do everyone a favor to just throw it out, even if you throw like a girl. It is an irrational fear, not really a measure of sexual orientation. In theatre and in music, I have known many "effeminate" men who were straight as an arrow (trust me I double-checked my research on this! :o )

I want to love people just like they are and stop guessing whether the way he talks with his hands means he's queer, or if she's good at math and has a short haircut, she's lesbian. We all need to declare together (and I think Gen. Y may be doing so as we speak) that these things are NOT indicators of sexual preference, they are simply wonderful human characteristics that prove we are alive, made in the image of an extraordinary Divinity from whom flows both anima and animus, the masculine and feminine powers of creative energy.

These 2 books by Ann Bedford Ulanov helped me tremendously in understanding how to embrace the feminine without being ashamed : Transforming Sexuality : The Archetypal World of Anima and Animus & Picturing God

Bless you for sharing your feelings, this is a crucial subject in confronting homophobia.

T J

[tdogg]

Andy,

You need a "special box" - it could be made out of anything, but make it special and uniquely YOU. Then print out all the positives messages, compliments, scriptures and words that mean so much to you. Whenever you are feeling less than adequate, a little down 'n out, pull out your special box and read how amazing others see you. Works like a charm. ;)

[cousin.of.zuzu]

This was a really interesting discussion for me so far. And I thought I'd add my random thoughts. I've been searching for new metaphors and this is one of my favorites. I thought I'd see what happens when you put it into dialogue with your current story. It's based off titration and I'm not a chemist so humor me. :) It's something that helps me in my processing. Feel free to trash it if you'd like. Or if it's a useful analogy to use take it.

Andy what happens when you think of your story and current processing in terms of titration? Chemists titrate things. The most common picture of this is of little beakers of chemicals and and eye dropper that drops one drop at a time until a reaction happens. Lately I've read people using the titration analogy in all sorts of theory. Psychology, race relations, community development, identity formation. So why not try it with sexuality and gender?

What identity chemicals are you currently combining? What is the result you are looking for from an identity, spiritual and mental health perspective?

If you put too few or too many drops of _________ (whatever __________ is for you) in with other elements of life and community you may get no reaction or you might get an explosion. eg. Is this current post a titration that's bubbling a bit and you want to make it turn orange instead? What kind of chemical would "bent" be? What chemical is your affinity for the gblt community? Is the titration done? Does it need something else mixed in?

[andrewlittle]

Feel free to trash it if you'd like. Or if it's a useful analogy to use take it.

Andy what happens when you think of your story and current processing in terms of titration?

What identity chemicals are you currently combining? What is the result you are looking for from an identity, spiritual and mental health perspective?

If you put too few or too many drops of _________ (whatever __________ is for you) in with other elements of life and community you may get no reaction or you might get an explosion. eg. Is this current post a titration that's bubbling a bit and you want to make it turn orange instead? What kind of chemical would "bent" be? What chemical is your affinity for the gblt community? Is the titration done? Does it need something else mixed in?

I haven't thought this through a lot yet, so this is just initial thought. It is, I think, an apt analogy.

I have tended in my life to compartmentalize myself. I have, in the past, done it very effectively, until a few years ago. The problem ends up being that you figuratively have any number of different people living in your head at the same time, It's like self-inflcited multiple personalities.

I have been in a process of integrating the parts, and the titration concept is an interesting way of looking at how I am doing that. Not only that, but also external factors and new learnings, which will hopefully never stop.

Maybe reflecting this way - which in a practical way I see as very similar to Daniel's thoughts among others - will enable me to experiment a little and look a little more objectively at the results of each trial. Either that, or I will go right off the deep end - of course, that won't be too noticable. :lol:

[cousin.of.zuzu]

It's like self-inflicited multiple personalities.....

Maybe reflecting this way - which in a practical way I see as very similar to Daniel's thoughts among others - will enable me to experiment a little and look a little more objectively at the results of each trial.

In response you your self-inflicted multiple personalities... I am a huge fan of whatever it takes to integrate self and wholeness! So I hope for you integration or a good chemical mix/titration of the multiple elements in you. Happy experimenting.

[Amaya.Ookami]

You are not nuts, I assure you. Truthfully, I think I fall within the same catagory you and your wife seem to, whatever catagory that is. I love GBLT people, and many of my firends are GBLT, but I don't really find myself attracted to girls (I am a girl, by the way) either. Though, I guess maybe what we (or at least I) am is mind-gay, if that makes sence. we think more openly, more abstract, we have an expanded mind and get along easily-closely with GBLT's because of the format of our minds. maybe GBLT's in general (overgeneralization, again. sorry) have this mind-format, and straight people just dont. while people who are truly GBLT in the physical/atraction sence, they are curvy-minded, and we are bent-minded, and straights are straight-minded? You make sense to me, anyway. and I think it's a valid point, and something I'd like to explore more deeply, given time. I've really got to scoot now though, I've classes to get to.
-Kozi

[Diane Vera]

I grew up in the Deep South, with the exception of living 3 years in Chicago while in seminary. One day my best friend asked me, "How come all Southern men talk like they're gay?" I had to laugh because I knew what he was getting at.

I thought about this when Ann Coulter made her hateful attack on John Edwards. Mr. Edwards talks like a great many Southern men, with a sweet drawl; also like some gay men, myself included, but it doesn't make him gay.

A lot of gay men have migrated to big cities from more rural areas in search of a more tolerant atmosphere and a better social life. For the same reason, it would seem likely to me that a lot of gay men have moved out of the Bible Belt into Northern cities. I'm wondering if the real reason why a lot of gay men talk with a drawl is simply that a lot of them have moved up from the South?

A lot of northern urban black people talk with a drawl too, for essentially the same reason -- a lot of them moved up from the South in the 1950's or so.