JudB from Cleveland

[JudB]

I heard about your forums on the Gay Christian Network and wanted to join. I will be at Cedarvile College in Ohio to support the Equality Riders on April 20, 2007. I look forward to reading and sharing posts.

[andrewlittle]

May God be with you all on the 20th. Cedarville is in the same neck of the woods as my old stomping grounds - in attitude as well as location. They could certainly use some - well, let's say - gentle persausion.

God bless, and I hope to read some of your thoughts here at Soulforce. I have enjoyed your voice at GCN.
Andy

[Pablo Rafael]

Hi Jud,

A warm welcome. There are some great people here who are willing to get into discussions. I hope you will join in. We are glad to have you.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[JudB]

for your warm welcome...

[kara speltz]

for your warm welcome...


Hey Judy, are you the Judy from Cleveland that worked with the Catholic team a number of years ago? Welcome, and how are things in Cleveland.

kara

[Zerbie]

Hi - welcome to the forum. :)
How long have you been in activism? (I enjoy hearing from folks with activist experience, and I get the impression from your profile that the 'shoe fits.')

Looking forward to your perspective.

[JudB]

Hello Kara and Everyone else,

Yes, I am the Judy from Cleveland that participated in some actions a while back. The group in Cleveland ended although we still stay in touch. In fact I am attending an action at Cedarville College in Ohio with Kim another Soulforce vet I believe some of you know.

I went to the Gay Christian Network for more of a regular community connection and there was conversation and supporters of Soulforce there. When I heard Soulforce now supported forums, I signed on.

I think talking like this on a regular basis with folks will make partcipating actions more meaningful. It will be something I do with a community with those whom I am already connected and now there is a vehicle for staying conected after the action.

Participating will not seem like such an isolated, solitary event.

Looking forward to talking with all of you

[kara speltz]

Hello Kara and Everyone else,

Yes, I am the Judy from Cleveland that participated in some actions a while back. The group in Cleveland ended although we still stay in touch. In fact I am attending an action at Cedarville College in Ohio with Kim another Soulforce vet I believe some of you know.

I went to the Gay Christian Network for more of a regular community connection and there was conversation and supporters of Soulforce there. When I heard Soulforce now supported forums, I signed on.

I think talking like this on a regular basis with folks will make partcipating actions more meaningful. It will be something I do with a community with those whom I am already connected and now there is a vehicle for staying conected after the action.

Participating will not seem like such an isolated, solitary event.

Looking forward to talking with all of you

Good to reconnect with you Judy, and I absolutely agree. Kara

[davidb]

Judy,

My thoughts and prayers will be with you next week at Cedarville. I come from a GARBC background and attended Cedarville's sister Bible College in Pennsylvania. They have been preparing for your arrival, there is quite alot of information here on their web site:

http://www.cedarville.edu/speakingtruth/seminars.cfm

I don't know how much actual dialogue they will allow, but at least they are not planning to arrest people for stepping on their sidewalk. They are very devout, and absolutely hold that their position is a biblical absolute.
Best of luck...

Keep me posted.

David
_______________________________________________
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.

--Emerson

[u-dog]

An amazing amount of time and effort they have put into prepering for the Soulforce visit eh? I haven't review the videos yet (I'm trying to psych myself up... I'm afraid they will make my head explode) I know it will be stuff I have seen and heard before and a lot of psuedo-science (Nicolosi is one of their sources) but it will still get my bloodpressure up I'm sure.

[BrentRichards]

An amazing amount of time and effort they have put into prepering for the Soulforce visit eh? I haven't review the videos yet (I'm trying to psych myself up... I'm afraid they will make my head explode) I know it will be stuff I have seen and heard before and a lot of psuedo-science (Nicolosi is one of their sources) but it will still get my bloodpressure up I'm sure.

I've heard Nicolosi is a tough man to take. I've read all his stuff, and even when I was on "the other side of the fence" I found it "iffy" at best. Psychodynamic theory is entirely reflective in nature ... you can look back from the end result and find "causes" in the history, but there is no predictive value. Likewise, psychodynamic theory in general is almost entirely unresearched, and by its nature unresearchable.

Random rant, sorry.

[u-dog]

Rant away my friend! Rant away!:lol: Would you please review the Cedarville videos for me and if your head doesn't explode let me know?

[BrentRichards]

Sure ... hey, cut that red wire there and let me know what happens, ok? I'll be in that bunker over there.

[davidb]

I watched the first video from Dr. Ruby (he's the Dean of Student Affairs I believe) on the type of response Cedarville plans to give. It was more thoughtful and less outwardly hateful than I had expected.

BUT...

The students were told that there would be nothing greater than to convert an equality rider or two to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ (you cannot be openly gay and be "saved" in their opinion) and to have them repent while they were at Cedarville. What a tremendous witness!! Hallelujah!! PTL!! etc. etc. At that point I turned it off.

One interesting aside was that Dr. Ruby offered--to any student who wanted it--completely anonymous prayer and counseling to help them overcome their temptations--without discipline. From my knowledge of this institution, that would be very unlikely.

I'll be interested in hearing other people's reactions to these, should anyone feel brave enough to watch them.

David

________________________________________
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.

--Emerson

[JudB]

double post

[JudB]

It is hard for me to download videos with my dial up (yes, that is what I have) but I'll check on someone else's computer. It sounds like we will have an interesting day in store for us.

If someone does try the conversion thing, I am glad I have my Soulforce training to fall back on. That may be the most powerful witness.

[BrentRichards]

Ok, so I've had the chance to view the first of the Cedarville videos ... it's all very familiar. This is very much the kind of perspective/crowd I used to run with. I have to say their approach is more gracious than most, and is far and away the smartest/smoothest/savviest response of any of the schools, that I've seen.

That being said, I have the usual complaints and disagreements. It may be a difficult visit ... they'll be well prepared.

U-Dog ... yes, I think it will get your blood pressure up. In some ways, the more level-headed, subtler folks are the more dangerous, because they're not going to be dismissed out of hand by the general public, like, say, a Fred Phelps would be.

[JudB]

Thanks for helping me prepare...

[davidb]

Part of me would rather deal with BJU, with the bullhorns and the screaming--rather than have to deal with that veneer of pseudo-spirituality, the God talk, that pious sincerity, fake hospitality, and those canned smiles--with the fear and animosity right below the surface. But I've watched some of the video footage on the blogs, and the riders are very articulate and seem to be equipped for every kind of interaction. It should make for a most interesting visit.

_________________________________________
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.

--Emerson

[trikster19]

Wow, I have just watched the first video from the Cedarville University and there are so many issues which have been raised. Would this university be considered one of the more tolerant institutions towards Soulforce? Are there other institutions which have reacted in a worse way? I have to admit that I haven't had any dealings with Christian educational institutions in regards to the treatment of homosexuals on campus, but it is something that interests me.

Is it me or was what Dr Ruby discussing actually contradictory? And why do they insist on thinking that we do not know the gospel nor God's love?! The underlying message I received from the video is that as long as we say we are wrong, only then can we be a part of God's church... What happened to the concept of faith being the key to our salvation - John 3:16....

I wish you all the best Judy. I hold much respect for you and all the Equality Riders.

[BrentRichards]

Wow, I have just watched the first video from the Cedarville University and there are so many issues which have been raised. Would this university be considered one of the more tolerant institutions towards Soulforce? Are there other institutions which have reacted in a worse way? I have to admit that I haven't had any dealings with Christian educational institutions in regards to the treatment of homosexuals on campus, but it is something that interests me.

Certainly, some have been more openly hostile, but as I say, sometimes "nice" is worse.



Is it me or was what Dr Ruby discussing actually contradictory? And why do they insist on thinking that we do not know the gospel nor God's love?! The underlying message I received from the video is that as long as we say we are wrong, only then can we be a part of God's church... What happened to the concept of faith being the key to our salvation - John 3:16....


That message troubled me, too ... the obvious assumption is that "these can't be Christians" ... an assumption I gave up long before I was able to embrace my own sexuality, but which these guys seem to be holding on to. Sigh. I've told more than one of these "I've got it right and you don't" jokers, when they told me I was going to hell, "Fortunately, you don't get to decide that. God has yet to consult me on who to let into heaven, and I suspect you haven't been consulted either."

[trikster19]

My heart goes out to all the students and any other Christians who are being told this message, that they can't be a Christian if they are also gay. It's total crap. It really messes with your mind and you start to think that you are an abomination, because you are constantly told 'you are wrong'. Thankfully there are groups like the Soulforce Equality Riders which are out there to change this message and help anyone struggling with being gay and a Christian.

It makes me realise how extremely lucky I was to have such a great pastor at my church (sadly, he has moved interstate now). When I first told him I was gay he was ok with it. He didn't approve of it but simply told me that all humans are sinners and that's what the church is here for. When I brought my partner to the church after some trouble with her own church, he accepted her with welcome arms and she became part of our church instead.

And I totally agree with you Brent when you say that it is only God who will decide who is going to hell. Isn't the point of our baptism and faith is that we are saved from this? If not, then what is the point of these? Isn't it interesting that Christians will continue to place restrictions on who may enter heaven when God himself has said that his love is unconditional?

[JudB]

Yes, God has told us He will do the judging of others, and we don't need to concern ourselves with that at all.

[davidb]

Since Cedarville and Cornerstone Universities are (well, technically were) part of the particular Baptist group that I was schooled in--the Gen. Assoc. of Regular Baptist Churches--I'll chime in with some of my experiences:

I went to a GARBC Bible College, and was a missionary supported by their churches for 5 years before I came out. This particular group of Baptists became organized in the early 1920's in opposition to the "modernist" movement within the Northern Baptists (which, if I remember correctly, became the American Baptist Convention). They chiefly left because the mainline baptist seminaries began moving away from a literal translation of scripture. Their motto is "holding fast the faithful word," which means that they have the corner on innerancy and righteousness and that their opinions are the final word. And, boy do they hold to it. Being resistant to social progress is also a hallmark of this denomination.

The GARBC has a long history of booting out both individual leaders and congregations when they perceive that they are becoming liberal or "worldly." They hold to the typical fundamentalist credos--biblical innerancy, authority of scripture, pre-millenialism--and they especially love the doctrine of "biblical separation." They teach that the great evil of the world was ecumenism, or "neo-evanglicalism," and they had a special hatred for Wheaton College, Gordon College, and Billy Graham because they felt that in their efforts to reach out across denomination lines (including meeting with Cathoics, God forbid), they were watering down the gospel.

It reminds me of sad little joke we used to throw around, which was "make like a baptist church: and split."

I left evangelicalism more than 20 years ago, just as it was starting to become this major phenomenon, but my family is still actively involved in a GARBC church. When I went back for my grandfather's funeral a few years ago (the wake was held in my old church), the Senior Pastor, who I had known since I was 4 years old, called me into his office with his wife. They began to barrage me with all these questions about why I had left. They told me that they just didn't understand, because over the course of my life I had always served the lord.

I don't remember exactly how I responded, but I communicated something to the effect that "serving the lord" had caused me a great deal of spiritual harm, and almost caused me to commit suicide. I remember telling them that for all the concern they had for my salvation and my obedience, it would have been nice if--just once--they had been concerned with my wholeness and my health and my happiness. I know that they genuinely were concerned, but because of their mindset, they couldn't even formulate the questions. I thanked them for their concern and I assured them that I had made my peace with God, but told them that if I tried to explain it, they probably wouldn't understand my journey (and admittedly I couldn't understand theirs).

I know that societal changes like divorce and single parenting forced the GARBC to soften their rhetoric somewhat, but they are still firmly tied to their history of biblical separation. Women are not yet ordained. Ministers who get divorced are de-frocked. And they have drawn battle lines around homosexuality and abortion, which are their social sacred cows. If other protestant denominations take more affirming positions, that to them is just evidence that these groups are indeed apostates and need to be separated from. And p.s. they love James Dobson!

I heard that the GARBC stopped supporting Cedarville a few years back because it became aligned with the largest conservative Southern Baptist Association in Ohio, who approved Cedarville as an educational institution (oh yea, Southern Baptists were considered liberal too). I'm sure that was mostly a financial decision, the crop of potential students would really grow given this new alliance.

The pressure to "be separate" was the most intense thing, I can't even put into words the kind of pressure I felt. It was mind control at its best: you were told what to think, what to pray, and you never questioned the social agenda, because it was God's social agenda. A classic case of addiction to authority. This pressure was every bit as intense as the group in Jesus Camp. It seems laughable and pathetic to me now, but when you're raised in this movement from an early age and are indoctrinated in these teachings, it's really intense.

The fact that Cedarville is allowing the Equality Riders on campus gives me hope that change has already happened. I cannot imagine what would have happened had Soulforce tried to visit my campus in the early 1980's. For many of the lgbt and questioning students on campus, this may be the first time that they ever meet someone who is openly queer and christian at the same time. And that is fantastic! The more dialogue the better. But their tradition is soooo resistant to social change, and their compulsion to "hold fast the faithful word" will indeed limit this discussion. But the example of the Equality Riders "speaking the truth in love" will be amazing and I can't wait to hear how it goes.

________________________________________
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.

--Emerson

[Freespirited]

I heard about your forums on the Gay Christian Network and wanted to join. I will be at Cedarvile College in Ohio to support the Equality Riders on April 20, 2007. I look forward to reading and sharing posts.


Hi Judy!!


I am so happy to see you joining this website! it is 360 degrees different from the other one isn't it? I sure hope so! I love your short but concise posts on the other website! you rock!! do you know who I am? je je je je!! :D


LEANDRO