Apocalyptophilia

[revtj]

Why do so many christians want to blow up the world?

That's the question my pagan friend asked me Friday night. He said his sister had a book that 'proves' George W. Bush is the anti-Christ and that Bush must start a world war to redeem Israel and bring Jesus back. He said that, even as a pagan, he believes it's inevitable, not because it is literally true, but because the people who do believe it have taken over America and the Middle East.

It is scary because I almost agree with him. Violence is as violence does. It's as if optimistic religion, like liberalism or evolution, has been so demonized that you must buy into this big nuclear godblast to be a 'real christian.'

Why choose to interpret the Bible in a sadistic way? Why opt for the cruel death of millions of innocents because some preacher (like Hagee) declares it to be God's will?

I see it like it's a fetish for apocalypse. They get off on it. It makes them feel they know the end of the story and (what a coincidence!) they not only survive, but are materially glorified. You do not get the goods unless you believe in their blood-addicted god. Just another of the many-splendored forms of religious narcissism.

Have we as christians/Americans become the same as the 9/11 terrorists? Have we not become the thing that we hate? It often seems to me like Osama knew this is what would happen and we are playing right into his sick game.

What can non-violent christians say or do to counter this pervasive theology? Anybody got any ideas?

[schoolboi]

I know what you are talking about! I feel the same way. As I have said in other posts I believe this “end time” theology and biblical inerrancy or what I like to call bible idolatry are the two most dangerous and heretical ideas within Christianity today. I have been asking the same question. What can Christians say or do to counter this malignant theology? I do not know. I hope some answers come soon.

[Zerbie]

With ya.

Someone in the self help guru-ism field says, "What you think about expands" I bet that's Wayne Dyer. Anyway, I believe his observation is correct. There is so much focus on the "war" and I use quotes because I refer to the war going on in the minds of some Christians in this country, and many Muslims around the globe, that of COURSE they are causing some of their thoughts to manifest. The whole, "Man walks in the direction toward which he looks" thing. (That one was Mary Baker Eddy)

Here is another thought for the thought-pot. Can we remain very calm, very centered, peaceful and non-reactive while all this goes on? If we do, then we become that quiet center, and just by being we can shine a bit of light. I don't know what else there is one can do short of jumping into the fray and making noise of our own. Dunno if that would work, or just make things worse? Noisier, messier, harder to find a quiet center in all the chaos? I wonder if this isn't a violent and dangerous game that we have to sit on the sidelines watching, and just being prayerful. Anyone?

[revtj]

You guys rock...being peace and praying without ceasing are all we have left and these are no small things...

Still i wonder sometimes, why should good people go up in a mushroom cloud because of their idolatry? Are we supposed to try & stop this?

I think Reinhold Neibuhr is one of the coolest theologians of the 20th century. It's beginning to look like his struggle to remain a pacifist in Nazi Germany is some kind of metaphor for the world now.

[SolInvictus]

Hey TJ,
just read this great topic you started. Personally, having grown up in a fundamentalist enviornment, this desire for the apocalypse seems to based upon what these "christians" (Christian means Christ-like & followers of hate are not Christ-like in my opinion) see as "judgement against evil" & being somehow rewarded by God by staying "true" to Biblical teachings. They consider it, strangely, a form of love: convert others so they will not perish. However, having been in such an enviornment: to quote Tina Turner, "what's love got to do with it?" (LOL - couldn't resist a little joke there).

Perhaps this strange desire for the world to end is also tied to the dualistic mindset of these believers. Unfortunantly, apocalyptic views have been around for a long time, and at least since Zorastorism in Ancient Persia.
Viewing those who are not as "true believers," they are looked upon as "evil," which is very sad.

In regards to the means of trying to make the apocalypse happen, it is not only apart of radical Christianity. The Moonies, I think, tried to make it happen in Japan in the 90s. Of course, other examples are the Davidians & the Jonestown Movement, which all equaled tragically. Well, I have babeled on, but yes I agree w/ all of you: Christian apocalyptic beliefs are dangerous.

[Legion]

Christians can believe in a Biblical Last Judgement without worshiping the Apocalypse, like you have described. Many do worship the Second Coming as the hope and culmination of ther faith, and I am as sick of it as anyone, but there is nothing unbiblical about God judging the unredeemed. Justice is as much a part of God's nature as mercy. There cannot be one without the other, just as by left we understand right, and vice-versa.

Christin apocalyptic beliefs are certainly dangerous, but that is no reason to flee them. Life is dangerous. God is dangerous. It is dangerous to approach the Throne trusting to God's promised grace, yet it is more dangerous, and foolhardy in addition, to turn one's back on God and abandon oneself to certain judgement. We fall into error when we try to reinvent God on our own terms, by making him safe and comfortable. He is not a tame lion. In the dangers of life, the only safety is found in acknowledging and embracing the danger of God.

[NathanATX]

Christians can believe in a Biblical Last Judgement without worshiping the Apocalypse, like you have described. Many do worship the Second Coming as the hope and culmination of ther faith, and I am as sick of it as anyone, but there is nothing unbiblical about God judging the unredeemed. Justice is as much a part of God's nature as mercy. There cannot be one without the other, just as by left we understand right, and vice-versa.

Christin apocalyptic beliefs are certainly dangerous, but that is no reason to flee them. Life is dangerous. God is dangerous. It is dangerous to approach the Throne trusting to God's promised grace, yet it is more dangerous, and foolhardy in addition, to turn one's back on God and abandon oneself to certain judgement. We fall into error when we try to reinvent God on our own terms, by making him safe and comfortable. He is not a tame lion. In the dangers of life, the only safety is found in acknowledging and embracing the danger of God.

God has not given us a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power, love and a sound mind.

The god you describe incites fear. That god is cleary not the God of Jesus, the one who would leave the 99 just to save the one.

Jesus came to show us what God is really like... to help break us out of our tribal, fearful ideas and realize that God's compassion and goodness is far beyond our comprehension.

[revtj]

Why make the focus of my religion what you call the fear of God and His judgement? How will that feed the poor, clothe the naked, house the homeless, or do anything at all for the least of these whom Jesus directed us to serve?

Jesus said many would call him "Lord, Lord..." (isn't that a fear-based theology exalting God?) but they ignore the poor and Jesus sends them away.

The judgement I fear is the one happening all around us in the world where 1000s of children die every day from hunger, where people live in cardboard boxes in the richest nation in the world, where the poor are exploited and killed by big military powers. All of these things are of this world in the here and now.

If there is to be a cataclysmic coming of the Lord, so be it. Until then, let me be found, by the grace of God, loving my neighbor, actively working for justice and trying to change the earthly conditions that keep the poor and oppressed shut out from the abundance of God's creation. If I can practice that Love, I will not become stuck in the fear of some future prediction of God's burning wrath.

[schoolboi]

Apocalypse actually means unveiling or revealing. That’s why the last book of the Bible is called the revelation or apocalypse of St. John. Modern ideas that apocalypse means the end time or end of the world is completely inaccurate. I believe a proper understanding of this word would help us better put the entire book of revelation in to context. So this book is about unveiling or revealing something, but what is it that is being revealed? Look at the first five words of the book. It says, “The revelation of Jesus Christ.” The word revelation that is uses is the Greek word apocalypse. This book is meant to reveal Jesus to us. Our modern focus of trying to predict the future or the end of the world with this text is misguided and misinformed. I agree with Rev. TJ that the true apocalypse or unveiling that we need to see most right now is a revelation of the injustice that is happening all around us in the world at this moment. We must judge our society and ourselves, so that WE might become the apocalypse and revelation of the Christ.

[revtj]

Corey, I like that, I did not know that was the meaning of the word apocalypse. This may sound corny but the first image it brought to mind was the un-veiling of the bride in traditional western weddings.

And I thought, when Christ the bridegroom lifts the veil what will we be doing? Feeding his sheep? tj

(ok, I know it's hetero imagery, but you get the point ;) )

[Legion]

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Yet another paradox of Christianity: safety in fear; compassion in justice; diversity in unity.

Tribal? Using the names of previous social systems as terms of abuse is as rude as it is ineffective.

[Zerbie]

Taking this thread in a different direction again, today I ran across this site:

noniedarwish.com

Take a peek around. Interesting, deeply needed perspective.

[Vortex]

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom...



These words are poison. There is NO wisdom to beget from fear. Within absolute fear exist only one thing, absolute ignorance. It is our understanding of ourselves and the world around us that fear ceases to rule our lives. This, my friend is the beginning of wisdom.

[Legion]

Psalm 111:10 disagrees with you.

[revtj]

Zerbie, omigosh, Nonie Darwish is for real! But, did you know, there exists her perfect parody, Ms. Betty Bowers!?

http://www.bettybowers.com/


And, if I can quote Betty without seeming too rude, Apocalypticism makes Jesus vomit! :lol:

[schoolboi]

Psalm 111:10 disagrees with you.

Legion,

You better go back to Hebrew class or at least check a few other translations. That word “fear” is better translated as respect, reverence, or even worship.

Even when using the English word "fear" its definition is not static. A quick look in the dictionary will show you that “fear” can also mean: Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power

BTW: That would apply to Job 28:28; Proverbs 9:10; Proverbs 15:33; and Ecclesiastes 12:13 as well.

[NathanATX]

Zerbie, omigosh, Nonie Darwish is for real! But, did you know, there exists her perfect parody, Ms. Betty Bowers!?

http://www.bettybowers.com/


And, if I can quote Betty without seeming too rude, Apocalypticism makes Jesus vomit! :lol:

God Bless Betty Bowers, one of America's True Christians! $:dollar:$

[Legion]

I agree that it is most useful to try to understand how the original text would have been understood by the original audience. Usually around here the Bible is primarily understood in terms of our current circumstances and perspectives.

That word "fear" CAN BE translated as respect or reverence, but could just as easily be translated as denoting fear, the condition of being afraid, fear concerning one's moral condition, exceedingly afraid, in dread and awe of something, or fearful.

Proverbs 9:10 also includes "the knowledge of the holy" as a parallel to "the fear of the Lord". If we understand the true nature of holiness, and understand our nature as depraved humans, we would understand that unholiness cannot exist in the presence of holiness, but is consumed by it's burning righteous light and fire. God in His mercy has NOT dealt so with us, but it is something to be taken into consideration. Ultimately, it is because the all-consuming holiness of the Lord that a mediator and sacrifice was necessary. Actually, we still need that mediator (I know you this, I just didn't want to leave it out - don't feel like I'm insulting your intelligence).

[NathanATX]

Proverbs 9:10 also includes "the knowledge of the holy" as a parallel to "the fear of the Lord". If we understand the true nature of holiness, and understand our nature as depraved humans, we would understand that unholiness cannot exist in the presence of holiness, but is consumed by it's burning righteous light and fire. God in His mercy has NOT dealt so with us, but it is something to be taken into consideration. Ultimately, it is because the all-consuming holiness of the Lord that a mediator and sacrifice was necessary. Actually, we still need that mediator (I know you this, I just didn't want to leave it out - don't feel like I'm insulting your intelligence).

I completely and absolutely reject the notion that we are "depraved humans" in God's eyes. Jesus told story after story trying to get people to see what God really thought about them. The story of the prodigal son is not the story of a father viewing his son as depraved or unworthy, but it is the story of a father whose love remains unconditional, strong and unshaken-- in spite of the unkind words & actions of his son. The father waited every day for his son to return home... and he rejoiced when it finally happened.

And the miracle of what happened wasn't seeing the depth of the father's forgiveness for what his son had done. The miracle was that the son had just enough hope to believe his father might have just a little mercy on him... in spite of the guilt he felt... in spite of being condemned by other people, like his brother... in spite of the fear, he knew deep down in his soul that surely his father would have some love left for him.

That miraculous first step home led him into the arms of his father... who had no anger, no punishment, no long list of things the son would have to in order to be forgiven... just love and rejoicing!

You said holiness can not exist in the presence of unholiness. Let me ask you... where is exactly is God not? If God is omnipresent, is there anywhere God would not be? Even if you believe in hell, does it make sense to say that God is omnipresent and not in hell? No, it doesn't.

The bible says that nothing can separate us from God. We couldn't be separate from God if we wanted to. God is in us and with us, moment by moment and day by day.

You can choose to believe we are "depraved humans." I choose to believe that most often we deprive ourselves or others of feeling God's love. We let guilt, condemnation, and judgement creep into our hearts until we have difficulty believing that God does truly love us... that God delights in us... that we are the "apple of God's eye."

My prayer is that we would be courageous enough to hope for that love... and that we would take that miraculous first step back into the loving presence of our Creator.

[Legion]

iI appreciate the fact that you emphasize God's love. However, to emphasize His love at the expense of His righteous judgment is unrealistic.

If you take time to investigate what the Bible actually says about the sinful nature of humans, it should become obvious fairly quickly that while God's love is a major theme, so is God's judgment. There are at least 389 verses in the Bible that specifically use the word "sin", 90 verses in the New Testament alone. 285 verses use the word "judgement". 281 verses use the word love. 261 verses contain the word "mercy". A reading of the Scriptures that comes away with a belief that human beings are not sinful is unbalanced, blind and unrealistic.

I, too, pray that we may hope for God's love, but hoping for God's love does not require ignoring our sinful condition. The father certainly rejoices for the return of his lost son. But that does not exclude the father's recognition of his son's failing. The love of the father for his son is shown more noble by the fact that it exists in spite of the sin and the dirt and the swine-stench. The son only returned home when came to his proper senses, when he understood what he had done, that he had sinned against heaven and against his father.

I DID say that unholiness is consumed in the presence of holiness. I also added that I am thankful God has not dealt so with us yet, but has rather extended His loving grace and mercy in allowing us to continue existing. It is by God's supreme love and grace that the sinful world remains at all. I pray that God would, in His love and grace, take hold of us, bring us out of our present condition and grant us forgiveness.

My point is that a recognition of God's love does not preclude an recognition of sin and the wages of sin.

[schoolboi]

The concepts of sin, judgment, punishment, and redemption seem to keep coming up on various threads on the board. This tread is one major example. The discussion of these topics seems to have taken over the tread’s original topic of apocalyptophilia. The link below is to a new thread I have created in hopes of focusing the conversation regarding sin, judgment, punishment, and redemption on one thread.:)

sin, judgment, punishment, and redemption (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=279)