Another article

[ladyinred]

http://www.valueallfamilies.com/myth__gays_are_pedophiles
http://www.valueallfamilies.com/introduction2, This women decided to do extensive research on antigay tactics.. so she actually posed as a concerned citizen inquiring about those "diabolical gay activists." The second url I included in this posting actually shows a letter from Dobson to her.. You might want to surf this website for further evaluation.

[ladyinred]

Of course I thought the pictures of James Dobson and Bush in the flintstone mobile were amusing .Yaba daba doooooooooooooooooo.Where is Wilma?"Wilma , Wilma where art thou ?":rolleyes: :lol:

[ladyinred]

I hope you all appreciate a sense of humor.. Of course when I was working at Walmart ,I would often jokingly walk around say,"Pharoah, let my people go." I wonder why I didn't get fired for that one?":D

[u-dog]

Of course I thought the pictures of James Dobson and Bush in the flintstone mobile were amusing .Yaba daba doooooooooooooooooo.Where is Wilma?"Wilma , Wilma where art thou ?":rolleyes: :lol:

Wilma Schlaffly?

[Diane Vera]

On one of the above pages, in a commentary (http://www.valueallfamilies.com/introduction2) on a fund-raising letter from James Dobson:

... he thinks the "center piece" of their "master plan" is the "utter destruction of the family"? How would one even begin to destroy every family? Maybe if all the gay men went straight at the same time. Yeah, that would create some chaos.

All of a sudden, a massive influx of beautiful, charming, fit, smart, respectful men thrown into the heterosexual market. Now that would definitely destroy some families. Now after all our research we still don't get it. Please explain to us like we are two year olds. How is legislation that protects gay Americans from being wrongly discriminated against going to destroy any other family?

If you have a family and you love each other, nothing would be able to destroy it. Let alone people that you don't know that don't even know you exist. Does this not embarrass straight people? To suggest that your love is so weak and fragile that your family will dissolve if Donna is allowed to use her insurance to cover Cindy. That Paul can visit Tom in the hospital when they have been partners for 40 years? That legal rights given to others can ruin your marriage?

Is that not embarrassing to even suggest?

Very well put.

I would add that the so-called "pro-family" position is destroying families, by encouraging gay men and lesbians to get married to people of the opposite sex in an attempt to "cure" themselves, which of course doesn't work, often leading to a broken family.

[ladyinred]

Diana , think about the ominous overtones of Dobson's letter and the implications of sending that out to people. I whole heartedly agree that giving GLBT people the same rights as straight people will in no way harm or undo marriages between straight people.

However even if there is a trend for many marriages to end, that can hardly be blamed on GLBT people , we cannot be held responsible for their actions or the welfare of their marriages and families, they are responsible for their own actions.

But what is troubling is Dobson bases his assertions that GLBT people will destroy marriages on his own assertion that he is an authority on such things, and anyone who is impressionable might buy into his deluded logic and really believe and think that GLBT people are destroying our society and culture.

Hence because he has launched a fear campaign, and because he tends to set himself up as an authority figure and expert on families, he can have a pretty huge influence on the minds on others. I think many people are led to believe that what he says is totally true and that is the tragedy. They too will be led to believe that the GLBT community has a diabolical crusade to destroy their familes and as a result many of these people will strike out in fear toward GLBT people, or go along with legislation that will undermine the rights of GLBT people and even support it whole heartedly.

[Diane Vera]

I think many people are led to believe that what he says is totally true and that is the tragedy. They too will be led to believe that the GLBT community has a diabolical crusade to destroy their familes and as a result many of these people will strike out in fear toward GLBT people, or go along with legislation that will undermine the rights of GLBT people and even support it whole heartedly.

Dobson et al have been spouting this kind of rhetoric for decades now. This is nothing new. We need more people, like the author of the website you pointed us to, exposing how ridiculous it is.

[ladyinred]

But as I stated GLBT are not responsible for the welfare of straight people's relationships with their partners or families, we can only be responsible for our own actions in our own relationships and for our own families. We cannot destroy their families or their marriages. The high rate of divorce is not our fault nor are their marital problems or family problems. We can't cause them to do anything. By assigning blame for things to another group of people who obviously have no control over such things is a cop out. What about the responsibility of straight people for their own actions. Why is it such a customary practice of the religious right to assign blame to other factors or another group of people where it actually doesn't belong. They are probably the ones doing the most harm to families in reality.

[ladyinred]

IF GLBT people were not forced into the closet , things might be different and they would not have married people of the opposite sex just to fit in and conform to societal expectations.. They would have pursued the relationships they thought were best for them. Since heterosexuals automatically enjoy the freedom without the constraints to pursue the partner of their own choice they don't face the problems and challenges that GLBT people do.
Heterosexuality is not restrained in our culture.. What do you basically see on tv and in books.. they are mostly geared to a heterosexual culture.. Romance novels, movies, love stories all extol the "virtues" of "love" between two straight people. It is even considered normal that they will have had several sexual partners throughout their life .They can date openly , go to the singles bars if they wish among other things. And if they do have sexual partners outside of marriage (Before marriage) it is often referred to as sowing their wild oats, or a normal phase they ae just going through..GLBT people if doing the same thing are looked down on and considered "promiscious." and immoral .There are definitely double standards in our culture.

[ladyinred]

In other cultures that are patriarchial, women are basically treated more like chattel and it is considered normal for the male even in marriage to have several sexual partners, It is even glorified. ( I heard one sheik had eighty wives.) But in the same cultures if women were to do the same thing they would be locked away or stoned.I would hardly view such relationships as loving. Many women at a very early age..(10 on up) are considered marriage material once they reach puberty.And they say GLBT people are pedophiles? It is often considered normal for a man in his 50's to be married to a twelve year old girl... My friend was saying even here in the U.S where she lived ( She is a much older woman in her 70's) It was considered normal to marry a much younger girl off to an older man..when she was growing up.

[ladyinred]

The most fanatical element of the religious right, people such as Pat Robertson believe that women are subordinate to men..I heard one evangelist on the radio say women should bow before their men. Now I know why the woman on the all families are valuable website said they were of the flintstone age and had a caveman like mentality. I remember seeing pictures when I was a child of the caveman pulling the woman along by the hair like a piece of property..
I was actually reading an article about one woman reporter who was talking to Pat Robertson who said she had never met a man who was so venomous toward women.. I also read something of his past history as far as his relationship with his own wife and it said he was rarely there for his wife.

Is it any wonder why their own marriages are dysfunctional then?

[ladyinred]

Another thing I've noticed about many people of the GLBT community is they don't sexualize everything. Many have friendships with both the same sex and opposite sex.. Not that there aren't heterosexuals that don't do the same thing, but it is often frowned upon or seen as suspect especially when being married. I hope I'm not making sweeping generalizations here. I don't want to offend people but this is just my observance of things.:)

[ladyinred]

I also don't want to be seen as bashing heterosexuals. Because I know I've encountered those who are open minded and accepting. I even had a woman friend who approached my ex in a round about way ,(We'd never told her that were lesbian.)
She brought it out in out in a conversation saying she had lesbian friends who had given her tips and help when she was dating men.
Another friend asked me if I was , had no problem with it. Her sister is the same way.
My counselor had no problem with it and said she knew of many GLBT people she thought were wonderful..

Most of the neighbors we lived around never bothered us or gave us problems and were even friendly to us. Some offered to help us move when we were locating to a new place. I had neighbors even offering to help us move into our new apartment. One man in our apartment complex actually helped us to move in.

The lady I mentioned above and her husband helped me and my ex move my mother from San Antonio to Oklahoma, and other neighbors helped as well.
So in all honesty I cannot say all heterosexuals are gay bashers. because I met many who weren't..And even those who did not approve of the lifestyle weren't so intolerant as to approve of denying GLBT's of their rights.

Of course I've met those who weren't tolerant and their beliefs were firmly entrenched in a fundamentalistic view.. But I also know of those who weren't and were adamant against discrimination toward gays. I tend to think those who are more moderate tend to take more of a tolerant view if they aren't being led astray by people like Dobson or Robertson or Falwell.

[Alecto]

On one of the above pages, in a commentary (http://www.valueallfamilies.com/introduction2) on a fund-raising letter from James Dobson:



Very well put.

I would add that the so-called "pro-family" position is destroying families, by encouraging gay men and lesbians to get married to people of the opposite sex in an attempt to "cure" themselves, which of course doesn't work, often leading to a broken family.

Of course. Then we get to point fingers at the evil, lying, cruelly deceitful gays! It all goes full circle.

[ladyinred]

The ol' saying you can't fit square pegs into round holes..(speaking of forcing conformity and compliance on GLBT people)LOL If it don't fit , then you must acquit...

[ladyinred]

And of course tyranny and the demand for conformity is nothing new in our culture. People who were considered "different" were often subjected to the evaluation that they were inferior or somehow subhuman. We see this historically with the treatment of African Americans and the Native Americans.

One having to live under the subjugation and rule of the so-called "moral majority." The Native American being herded onto reservations and stripped of their way of life were often called savages and uncivilized. . I remember a documentary where The Native Indian was forced into a "Christian way of life." They could not speak their own language and were forced into the customs and traditions and practices of those who were dominating them...

I think that the religious right operates from the same stand point.Anything that threatens the status quo, is a threat to them..

[ladyinred]

Of course why should they have equal protection under the law or rights like other people do, if they are considered "subhuman?" Or inferior in status?

These views still hold true today..only now a new target is on the horizon ,GLBT people. They now need a new group to demonize and scapegoat..And I do agree with the woman on the "Value all families" website that they do this intentionally to maintain control and power in the government. The right has it's own interests to maintain in government..There are those that want a theocracy that maintains their ideology and worldview of Christianity. I don't think the woman is a paranoid delusional, I think she is merely stating her legitmate concerns.

There is no such thing as religious diversity in their minds. Pat Robertson was quoted as saying ,"I don't have to be nice to the anti-Christ" ( Pertaining to the epicopalians, methodists..." Here is the exact quote:

"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don't have to be nice to them."--Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 14, 1991

His view on governing..Exact words.."The mission of the Christian Coalition is simple," says Pat Robertson. It is "to mobilize Christians -- one precinct at a time, one community at a time -- until once again we are the head and not the tail, and at the top rather than the bottom of our political system." Robertson predicts that "the Christian Coalition will be the most powerful political force in America by the end of this decade." And, "We have enough votes to run this country...and when the people say, 'We've had enough,' we're going to take over!"--Pat Robertson

"It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians, because Christians have the desire to build something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he builds. The people who have come into (our) institutions (today) are primarily termites. They are into destroying institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we have.... The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly fumigation."--Pat Robertson, New York Magazine, August 18, 1986.

Al la mode Dobson.

[Diane Vera]

There is no such thing as religious diversity in their minds. Pat Robertson was quoted as saying ,"I don't have to be nice to the anti-Christ" ( Pertaining to the epicopalians, methodists..." Here is the exact quote:

"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don't have to be nice to them."--Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 14, 1991

His view on governing..Exact words.."The mission of the Christian Coalition is simple," says Pat Robertson. It is "to mobilize Christians -- one precinct at a time, one community at a time -- until once again we are the head and not the tail, and at the top rather than the bottom of our political system." Robertson predicts that "the Christian Coalition will be the most powerful political force in America by the end of this decade." And, "We have enough votes to run this country...and when the people say, 'We've had enough,' we're going to take over!"--Pat Robertson

"It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians, because Christians have the desire to build something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he builds. The people who have come into (our) institutions (today) are primarily termites. They are into destroying institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we have.... The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly fumigation."--Pat Robertson, New York Magazine, August 18, 1986.

Al la mode Dobson.

Did you find these quotes on a website somewhere? If so, could you please post the link?

[ladyinred]

Diane, I'm going to post the website where I found these quotes. But I will mention, I've read about some of these quotes elsewhere and from other sources on the 'net. But here it is.Also I had posted another website before on soulforce's forums. Theocracy watch.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/7027/quotes.html
I also apologize for misspelling your name earlier. Sometimes in a hurry..and don't stop to look.

[ladyinred]

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/revpat.htm
http://www.gainesvillehumanists.org/patr.htm
http://www.campusprogress.org/tools/543/know-your-right-wing-speakers-pat-robertson
http://home.insight.rr.com/snookems/queer/Origins/robertson.html

[ladyinred]

Another one of his outrageous quotes:
"When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here that happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved in Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many were homosexuals -- the two things seem to go together."

-- Pat Robertson, March 7, 1990, on the "700 Club" (Overlooking that Hitler persecuted homosexuals much in the same way as the jewish people.)

[ladyinred]

Pat Robertson also accused homosexuals of being hedonists,overlooking the fact in a largely heterosexual culture.. Sex is a big seller, from the movies, to the books, to magazines like Playboy, to porno.. Sex is a big seller in advertisement as well. Even on tv.

Children are at an increasingly younger age having sex.( My niece had friends as young as thirteeen who were) Sex seems to be a primary preoccupation with many heterosexuals (As evidenced again by the large number of porno sites and magazines like Playboy, and of course sex chat rooms) They also have their share of singles bars and pick up joints, topless bars among others (Many times called a Gentlemen's club) And they talk about homosexuals????????

[ladyinred]

While my aim is not to attack heterosexuals in general.. I am aiming to present a more balanced and objective view of things.. Rather than a rigid one-sided stereotypical view of things. Gays are always being portrayed unfairly by the religious right as degenerates, sex obsessed, without morals among many other things

[ladyinred]

And I am not interested in or deliberately trying to offend people. But I feel an honest appraisal is needed. A more objective and balanced view point.. A more realistic view of things . I think I'm just trying to be truthful and objective.(see both sides of the coin)

I will say that I've seen good and bad in both the the heterosexual and the GLBT community.There is no denying that there aren't gay porno sites or sex chat rooms. But a fairer objective would be to judge the person by the content of his character rather than his sexual orientation , gay or straight. It is a totally unfair portrayal of GLBT people to lump them all into the same category or to say they are incapable of loving relationships, or of being good parents or as not having morals .

[ladyinred]

I will say character is not a fixed attribute.. Many people who might have done things when they were younger, may have grown into more loving and mature adults today. In other words we all make mistakes and hopefully we've learned something from them and our past. Admittedly some people never grow up or are incapable of truly meaningful relationships.Come to think of it some of the religious right remind me of a few of those people,LOL:lol: :lol:

[ladyinred]

Another accusation that is levelled at GLBT people is that they want special treatment and want to undermine traditional marriages between a man and a woman and their families. I don't see this as true.While it is true we want equal treatment under the law and don't want to be discriminated against because of our sexual orientation, I think most GLBT people respect the tradition of marriage between man and wife and their families. We have no diabolical intentions or interests in wanting to destroy them or undermine them..
And I think many here would agree if a GLBT person committed a crime they should be treated the same under the current laws as a heterosexual doing the same.

Most of us don't want preferential treatment but to be recognized as equal citizens with respect for our relationships and families as well.

Who in their right mind would want to have discrimination levelled at them. No one I know of... Who wants to be deprived of employment, housing, medical care, and the right to worship in their own churches ,equal and fair treatment under the law? No one I know of...

But of course according to the religious right agenda, we are a bunch of militant degenerates, who think we are above the law and want special rights and privileges to boot.. and we have sinister motives in wanting to undermine their traditions of marriage and family...We are out to destroy the foundation of society..We want to convert them to our way of thinking and lifestyle... the list goes on and on and on...

I personally as one person cannot counter all these accusations, I think as a whole GLBT people will have to do something to hopefully educate the public that we are not out to destroy their families..If the religious right can spread it's propaganda and misinformation then we have an equal right and responsibility to counter such misinformation and speak out against it. We cannot sit idly by and merely dismiss it or be silent... It is costing us big time.

[ladyinred]

This an article from the Black commentator addressing the issue of poverty among black people... He states the problem won't go away with just a passive resistance but adovocates activism.(And why can't we do the same?)

Last week I wrote a commentary on the problems Black’s can’t escape. The problems are largely socio-political in scope, some self-perpetuating while others are perpetuated by historical disparities. The inference that the problems of Black America were incalculable and inescapable was not lost on many of you (who responded in-kind through a bombardment of e-mails) that we can’t give up hope. While I appreciate the response (good to know folk are readin’) you missed the point of the commentary. The point of the commentary was to contextualize the dilemmas facing Black America and the multiplier effect that compounded social problems have created. Hope without action is, like faith without works, dead. We have to do more than HOPE things change. It’s time for us all to act.

I purposely excluded economics in last week’s social critique. The poverty discussion needs it own forum. Racism in America has always been economic. Race, economics and circumstance, for Black America, are intertwined, no matter the income class, education or occupational lot in life. The interconnectedness of the so-called “blessed of us” to the “least of us” is such that none of us came afford to continue to ignore the problems our people face. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. recognized that we were “inextricably connected” to our brothers smothering in the air-tight vault of poverty. King also recognized that there was no rational justification for such deep-seated poverty in America. King criticized America as wanting to fund foreign wars more than it wanted to fund domestic dignity. He planned to have a “Poor People’s Campaign” to raise America’s conscience on the question of poverty. He went to Memphis to show solidarity for striking sanitation workers — more to put a face on poverty and to give dignity to the cause of impoverished workers. King lost his life in this campaign, and the Poor People’s Campaign failed in the face of both national recalcitrance and political indifferent. Race, economics and circumstance were factors then, and they are factors now. King tried to make America face up to economic injustice then. We must make America face up to economic injustice now. We must re-engage a Poor People's Campaign in this country, to bring attention to the growing effects of poverty.



Poverty is something urban communities will not escape through passive engagement. “Tokenism” (passive investment in urban communities, small donations to community organizations, marginal social welfare policies) will not cure poverty. Detroit, Southside Chicago and South Los Angeles look the same as they did forty years ago. In some cases, they look worse than they did forty years ago. The alternative has been to try to attain “favorite Negro status” and escape the realities of impoverishment. “Escapism” has been the solution for many Blacks who simply try to earn enough money to separate themselves from the madness of crime — which is a residual effect of socio-economic disparities. What African Americans have realized in the thirty-nine years since King’s murder is that they can’t escape poverty. Even the more affluent Blacks can’t escape the despair of poverty. Not as long as you have one family member or friend impacted by the grips of poverty. How many people do you know that live in “the hills”, but have to go back to “the flats” to visit “their people"? How many people do we know that moved to the Westside, but have to “go home” to visit “Mama” on the eastside or southside — not because they don’t have the means to move her but because she doesn’t want to move?

For many of our seniors, it’s the only neighborhood they’ve ever known and they’re not leaving their homes, no matter how much the “hood” has changed. How many of us have passed through Skid Row and seen somebody you knew (well) and thought that was the last person you’d see down there because “back in the day", the person “had it goin’ on"? But circumstances change, and life changes — and what was once up is now down. It’s earthshaking and nerve shattering to know that “if not for the Grace of God, that could be…” Individuals can escape poverty. Communities hardly ever do, unless they’re gentrified — in which case, the impoverished are just moved somewhere else, while the rich take over strategic locales (which urban spaces are becoming increasingly more gentrified and valuable).



The last forty years have proven that low income people just can’t work their way out of poverty. They have to hit the lotto or find they have minerals in their backyards. Wages have been suppressed as high wage manufacturing jobs were replaced by low wage service jobs. The fastest growing segment of the poverty and welfare populations are people who get up and go to work everyday and still can’t make ends meet, the “working poor".

The Southern Christian Leadership Conference of Los Angles and SEIU Local 6434b launched a National Poor People’s Campaign this week that we hope will spread across the nation. It was announced on the same day a rally was being held in support of a security officers’ march for increased wages and improvement in work conditions so the officers can have jobs with dignity. The modern day example, of why we need a Poor People’s Campaign, is the plight of security officers in Los Angeles (really, security officers anywhere). Here are people, seeking dignity through work, hired at minimum (or just above minimum) wage, to protect assets in our communities — most times without a gun or sufficient back-up, representing the first point of contact in dangerous situations, but never earning the respect (numerous “toy cop” jokes) or the money they deserve to provide for and protect their families. In Los Angeles, Blacks are nine percent of the population and over 70% of the security guard workers. Race, economics and circumstance are big factors here. It’s the Memphis Sanitation Workers' dilemma all over again. Black workers are good enough to protect business interests all over the city, but not good enough to earn livable wages and live with dignity.



This is just one industry where wage suppression impacts the quality of one’s life. None of us can escape the realities of the poor — no matter how much we try. And poverty will never just “go away” as long as much of society tries to ignore it. Black America can restore America’s social conscience by addressing poverty. Poverty is not just a “black problem". It is a class problem, a poor people’s problem, that disproportionately affects Blacks. This is one problem we can address. Those who “invoke King” every fifteen minutes…those who want to fight a war… those who say Blacks need a focused cause to re-engage the civil rights movement, here it is.

Campaign in your area, to eradicate poverty — King’s last fight.

[Diane Vera]

Another one of his outrageous quotes:
"When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here that happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved in Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many were homosexuals -- the two things seem to go together."

Please see my comments in the thread GLBT people, Satanists, and Nazis (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2635).