What is Soulforce asking Christian colleges?

[antonyh]

Spiritual violence is the misuse of religion to sanction the condemnation and rejection of any of God’s children...It is just as violent spiritually when pastors and parents—quoting scripture—condemn and reject members of their congregation and their family (Mission Statement Page)


As Soulforce visits conservative Christian colleges, what are they asking these Christian colleges? Is it to stop spiritual violence against LGBTQ people or is it to challenge their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality? Or is it both?

I've extracted two quotes from the response by Covenant College and Central Bible College. In both cases they believe that that the Equality Ride is on a mission to challenge their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality.


The rides stated mission is to challenge Covenant's biblical view of sexuality and policies on sexual behavior, which they view as discriminatory and oppressive. This explicit goal makes it very clear that they are not interested in genuine dialogue, but rather are missionally committed to changing Covenent from its foundations up. The riders are indeed on a mission trip...



CBC has been and remains dedicated to a proper and accurate interpretation and presentation of the Bible, which is recognized as the final source of authority for all doctrine and practice. It is with that commitment in view that we have addressed not only the topic of homosexuality, but any life issue...Central Bible College is a welcoming community; however, as with any responsible institution we must set and maintain what we believe to be appropriate standards of conduct. Having stated our commitment to the Word of God, CBC does not endorse the ongoing practice of any behavior not sanctioned by the Scriptures. That includes the practice of homosexuality.


I attended two institutions like the above and I know that they are never going to change their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality in my lifetime. Maybe I am being pessimistic, but I have eight years of experience in their institutions to make this assessment.

I wonder if Soulforce could keep "beliefs" off the table in their activism and simply address the lack of compassionate response to LGBTQ people who find themselves at these institutions. In otherwords, the dialogue would be about specific topics like:

1. Sexual orientation
2. The psychology of coming out
3. Testimonies about LGBTQ experiences in these institutions
4. The biblical mandate for a compassionate response
5. A workshop on how to handle LGBTQ students with respect and compassion.

In otherwords, keeping "beliefs" off the table would allow the realistic possibility for dialogue.

[kara speltz]

As Soulforce visits conservative Christian colleges, what are they requesting? Is it to stop spiritual violence against LGBTQ people or is it to challenge their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality? Or is it both?

I've extracted two quotes from the response by Covenant College and Central Bible College. In both cases they believe that that the Equality Ride is on a mission to challenge their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality.





I attended two institutions like the above and I know that they are never going to change their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality in my lifetime. Maybe I am being pessimistic, but I have eight years of experience in their institutions to make this assessment.

I wonder if Soulforce could keep "beliefs" off the table in their activism and simply address the lack of compassionate response to LGBTQ people who find themselves at these institutions. In otherwords, the dialogue would be about specific topics like:

1. Sexual orientation
2. The psychology of coming out
3. Testimonies about LGBTQ experiences in these institutions
4. The biblical mandate for a compassionate response
5. A workshop on how to handle LGBTQ students with respect and compassion.

In otherwords, keeping "beliefs" off the table would allow the realistic possibility for dialogue.

People often don't understand the basic goal of Soulforce which was one of the most important aspects of what Gandhi taught. That goal is first and foremost to change ourselves. Or as Gandhi put it, "to become the change we seek." All else is secondary. We must stand up for what we believe in; we must begin to overcome our own internalized homophobia. In doing that, we witness to others who see our stand for justice to begin to examine their own fears and homophobia.

That absolute assurance that we are God's children, is undeniable to those who have "eyes to see." And so our stand spreads to those allies, like the student from Dordt college who wrote about the experience of having Soulforce there. You can find the letter on the blogs.

The last goal is to change the denominations and colleges that are teaching this untruth.

Kara

[antonyh]

The last goal is to change the denominations and colleges that are teaching this untruth.
Kara

is directly challenging...

"CBC has been and remains dedicated to a proper and accurate interpretation and presentation of the Bible, which is recognized as the final source of authority for all doctrine and practice."

...and is closing down any possibility of dialogue (not everywhere, but on many campuses)

I am wondering why Soulforce can't say, "We understand that our biblical/theological interpretations differ on this issue, but we're not here to challenge your beliefs. We want to dialogue with your colleges about gay and lesbian people and about your responses to us."

This is important because there are LGBTQ kids at these colleges that can be helped by compassionate institutional responses. Like I said before, these institutions are unlikely to change their biblical/theological beliefs on homosexuality, but their responses to us should be challenged.

I also wanted to let you know about the Marin Foundation. This was started by Andrew Marin, a graduate of Moody Bible Institute (I look onto the campus from my apartment) to create dialogue between gay activists and Evangelical Christians. I discovered his work because he was featured on the front page of the Chicago Reader. Here is the the foundation's site:

http://www.themarinfoundation.org/index.htm

[kara speltz]

is directly challenging...

"CBC has been and remains dedicated to a proper and accurate interpretation and presentation of the Bible, which is recognized as the final source of authority for all doctrine and practice."



We continue to disagree on this. Soulforce has received so many letters from young people on campus both gay and straight saying that our being there has opened their hearts and their eyes. And again, these denominations and campuses are killing our people. It is NOT some benighn untruth these people are putting out.

I can not comprehend how anyone who knew what Jesus was all about can continue to keep up these lies. Jesus continuously called the outcasts, not the pharasees. And he wasn't afraid to alienate people, do you recall his calling the pharasees, vipers?

kara

[Steven E. Webster]

I am wondering why Soulforce can't say, "We understand that our biblical/theological interpretations differ on this issue, but we're not here to challenge your beliefs. We want to dialogue with your colleges about gay and lesbian people and about your responses to us."
http://www.themarinfoundation.org/index.htm

Anthony,
This is an interesting idea--but I'm not sure it really makes sense to me. You may need to tell me more.

The perspective that I have learned in Soulforce (which I believe to be grounded in Gandhi) describes our "adversaries" not as being evil, but as being "misinformed, as I have been." It seems that the process of becoming better informed means changing at least some of one's beliefs.

Are you suggesting that Central Bible College (for example) could maintain its beliefs about the Bible, but change their beliefs about LGBT people? Or are you saying that they can keep all of their beliefs, but change their behaviors?

Can we expect them to stop treating LGBT people as inferior to heterosexual people without changing their belief that God created human beings heterosexual and that GLBT people violate God's plan for universal heterosexuality?

I have met LGBT people who are fundamentalist Christians--they just disagree with the rest of fundamentalists on the specific issue of God's acceptance of LGBT people. (None of the original "Five Fundamentals" that defined "Fundamentalism" had anything to say about the topic of homosexuality.)

If Soulforce is committed to the philosophy that the source of suffering is "untruth" or "misinformation" then it seems we are committed to changing at least some beliefs.

You are not suggesting that people are incapable of changing their beliefs--you have changed yours, it would seem. (The belief that our "adversaries" can change also seems to be one of the basics in Soulforce training--so is the belief that we can change.)

Maybe I need to hear some more concrete examples of what you mean, Anthony.

Steven Webster

[Diane Vera]

...

is directly challenging...

"CBC has been and remains dedicated to a proper and accurate interpretation and presentation of the Bible, which is recognized as the final source of authority for all doctrine and practice."

...and is closing down any possibility of dialogue (not everywhere, but on many campuses)

I am wondering why Soulforce can't say, "We understand that our biblical/theological interpretations differ on this issue, but we're not here to challenge your beliefs. We want to dialogue with your colleges about gay and lesbian people and about your responses to us."

What you're proposing here is somewhat similar to an approach I used successfully to get a couple of very vocal religious right wingers to back down when I was in college back in the late 1970's. I didn't directly challenge their religious belief that homoseuxality is a sin; I just argued that they didn't have the right to impose that belief forcibly on others. However, this was at a secular college. I doubt my arguments would have flown too well at a Bible college.

Soulforce isn't really in a position to change the policies of any religious institution directly, no matter what Soulforce does or does not say. The best Soulforce can do is to try to get people at those religious institutions talking about the issue, in the hope of sparking changes in policy later. To that end, it might be best to talk about a variety of different aspects of the issue including interpretations of the Bible passages that are used to condemn homosexuality.

I also wanted to let you know about the Marin Foundation. This was started by Andrew Marin, a graduate of Moody Bible Institute (I look onto the campus from my apartment) to create dialogue between gay activists and Evangelical Christians. I discovered his work because he was featured on the front page of the Chicago Reader. Here is the the foundation's site:

http://www.themarinfoundation.org/index.htm

I notice that the Marin Foundation does not avoid the issue of beliefs about homosexuality. For example, on the About Us (http://www.themarinfoundation.org/about.htm) page:


The Theological Interpretations on Homosexuality are five classes that cover everything an individual would ever want to know about what the Bible says regarding the topic of homosexuality from both a Progressive and Fundamental point of view. These classes thoroughly delve into each of the six main verses in the Bible that directly speak to homosexuality, dodging and avoiding no topic or thought pattern. Through this curriculum each verse will be dissected to its original translation and meaning in Hebrew and Greek, and then built back up in today’s context of theology, overall themes, conclusions and meanings of what each verse/passage is truly telling us about spirituality/religion and the GLBT community.

[antonyh]

Here is the Chicago Reader article on Andrew Marrin. I've been searching my butt off for this:

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/andrewmarin/

[Daniel]

Anthony-

Thank you for the link to the work of Andrew Marin and the foundation he has created.


The Marin Foundation educates, equips and provides the GLBT community with wholistic spiritual training, scientific research and clinical counseling. We seek to make available a transparent environment that does not force change, but rather fosters spiritual and religious growth.

The following is also from the website.

We are the very first organization of its kind in the United States that brings together the religious and GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender) communities in a non-threatening, research and biblically oriented fashion promoting the strength and growth of spirituality.

The aims of the Marin Foundation are laudable.

As I understand your argument, you would rather the anti-gay beliefs of conservative christians not be challenged. This strikes me as a moot point, for the simple reason that an openly gay person on a conservative campus is in itself challenging to anti-gay beliefs no matter how Soulforces 'policy' is tweaked. If the argument then circles around to 'gay-christians-should-stay-away-from-conservative-college-campuses-because-they-are-hurting-the-cause-or-equal-rights', this would be a return to your original concern on another thread, would it not?

I don't know if Andrew Marin is familiar with A Course in Miracles, but the goals of his foundation- that being nonthreatening - could be seen as falling within the same philosophical/metaphsycial framework. This framework posits that 'attack' in any form only furthers more 'attack', 'judgement' and 'condemnation'.

At rock bottom, this is the kind of 'belief' that appeals to my sensibilties more than anything else. I also don't see how this 'philosophy' falls outside the aims of an organization like Soulforce. Yes. We could argue whether the methods of nonviolence as enacted by Soulforce are 'attack' oriented and are 'forcing change', but my own personal view is that all that really matters in the end in the spiritual discipline of those involved. At the end of the day, we all have to own our projections.

[u-dog]

I did some reading on their website and to be honest... all of my alarm bells were going off. I got very bad vibes from this group. I think that they have gone to GREAT lengths NOT to divulge what they believe about homosexuality. I went to the websites of some of their contributors and they don't look particularly affirming.

[Diane Vera]

Here is the Chicago Reader article on Andrew Marrin. I've been searching my butt off for this:

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/andrewmarin/

Marin's personal beliefs are discussed here:

Marin may be more comfortable with homosexuality than the average evangelical, but he shares a belief in the Bible as the inerrant word of God. Which invites the question: does he consider homosexuality a sin?

When I ask it, Marin writes the question down on a piece of paper and studies it carefully. “It’s theologically sloppy to say it’s not a sin,” he replies. But he quickly adds that all Christians are sinners, according to Romans 3:23. “We’re all dealing with something.”

In this sense Marin’s a dyed-in-the-wool evangelical. But he doesn’t agree with many of his fellow conservative Christians on the consequences of this particular sin. In his view homosexuality won’t necessarily send you to hell. “It’s a great mystery who’s going to be in heaven,” he says. “Does God see sexual preference or someone’s heart, their will? At the end of the day, we don’t know. So there’s no easy way to count anyone out.”

Nor does he consider it his place to push gay people toward straight lifestyles--a new idea for some evangelical groups he addresses, given that the nature of evangelism is to be constantly on the march to win souls. “At what point do you release responsibility for someone’s life?” he says. “For me that point is when someone makes a decision for themselves. For example, if someone in the gay community decides that he’s gay and it’s OK with God, it’s not my job to tell them they’re wrong. I’m not telling anyone they have to change in order to love the Lord.

[antonyh]

Are you suggesting that Central Bible College (for example) could maintain its beliefs about the Bible, but change their beliefs about LGBT people? Or are you saying that they can keep all of their beliefs, but change their behaviors?

Can we expect them to stop treating LGBT people as inferior to heterosexual people without changing their belief that God created human beings heterosexual and that GLBT people violate God's plan for universal heterosexuality?

You are not suggesting that people are incapable of changing their beliefs--you have changed yours, it would seem. (The belief that our "adversaries" can change also seems to be one of the basics in Soulforce training--so is the belief that we can change.)


I am pointing out that the constraint to dialogue between some Evangelicals and Soulforce are two different biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality. Both sides are approaching the issue from an "all or nothing" perspective characteristic of the culture war.

We need to seek out common ground for dialogue. I am suggesting that the common ground is the response to LGBTQ people by these institutions. They need to meet us and hear our stories and experiences. They need to be educated about sexual orientation and the Biblical mandate for kindness, justice and compassionate response. All this can be done without debating views about homosexuality.

I offered Marin as an example of an Evangelical Christian who is sincerely trying to build bridges between our communities. Here are some quotes from the Chicago Reader:


Through classes, speaking engagements, media outreach, and scientific research, the 25-year-old hopes to diffuse the fear and suspicion on both sides...Knox, who directs HRC’s fledgling Religion and Faith Program, says Marin is “unique, as far as I can tell. I don’t know of anyone else who’s trying to bridge the gap between evangelicals and the gay community the way he does.”...So far he has managed to convince both sides that he’s more interested in fostering dialogue than promoting an agenda.

[Steven E. Webster]

Here is the Chicago Reader article on Andrew Marrin. I've been searching my butt off for this:

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/andrewmarin/

Anthony,

I read the article. This young man's approach is intriguing. Essentially he is willing to not take his own conservative beliefs too seriously. I think there may be a lot of younger evangelicals like him--I think they may be some of the people that actually do dialogue with the Equality Riders.

Mr. Marin also strikes me as one who is tolerant of progressive theology although he remains personally loyal to conservative evangelical theology. This makes Marin as odd as his tolerance of homosexuality does. Many evangelical leaders and the evangelical schools we are dealing with are quite insistent that progressive theology is heretical, anathema, and not to be tolerated.

The Billy Graham comparison is somewhat apt. I gather that Billy Graham is somewhat "soft" on the issue of homosexuality. Many Fundamentalists rejected Graham because he was too willing to work with "heretics" like Methodists and Presbyterians!

I see Marin as possibly playing an important role in bringing about some progress. That doesn't mean that Marin's approach is the one right approach and Soulforce's approach is the "wrong" approach. They are just two different approaches.

It seems to me that one of Marin's goals is to be able to reconnect with LGBT people who've been driven out of their evangelical faith communities by oppressive teachings and policies. What would it take, Anthony, to reconnect you to the faith community you were part of when you began to earn your M.Div. degree? Could you settle for less than the possibility of being ordained to the ministry with your life-partner recognized as your legitimate spouse?

Soulforce is not interested only in the public policy/political consequences of religious right teaching--we are also concerned with teachings and practices of discrimination that make LGBT people inferior within their faith communities. That is why Soulforce has historically engaged in actions against denominational policies that bar LGBT persons from marriage and ordination. This means we've been at odds with "mainline denominations" like the Methodists, Lutherans and Presbyterians.

I'm a committed United Methodist and would not have gotten involved with Soulforce had they not taken a stand against the oppressive policies of my own denomination. Twice I've engaged in Soulforce co-ordinated "disruptions" of United Methodist General Conferences of which you might not approve, Anthony.

I would be very disappointed in Mr. Marin if, in the future, he were to become a leading evangelical and would still defend denying qualified LGBT person the ability to answer the call to the ministry, and refused to allow his church's blessings on same-gender marriages. My hope would be that as younger evangelicals like Marin grew into church leadership current policies would change.

By the way, Anthony, how old are you? I'm 56 this May, and I've been a gay activist in the United Methodist Church for over 25 years--it's been slow going, but I've seen a lot of changes, good and bad. Tensions between "left and right" are much worse now than ever, but some think good things can come as such tensions eventually resolve. In that regard, Soulforce's role may be "stirring things up" while Mr. Marin's role is working out resolutions to tensions--there's a time and place for both approaches.

Steven Webster

[antonyh]

In that regard, Soulforce's role may be "stirring things up" while Mr. Marin's role is working out resolutions to tensions--there's a time and place for both approaches.


I'm all for "stirring things up" if you're aiming for a realistic dialogue. The problem is that these institutions keep perceiving Soulforce as a threat to their theological views and this severs dialogue. There has to be some give and take because that dialogue is all important.


What would it take, Anthony, to reconnect you to the faith community you were part of when you began to earn your M.Div. degree? Could you settle for less than the possibility of being ordained to the ministry with your life-partner recognized as your legitimate spouse?


No I could not. These goals will never be possible in the communities of faith I came out off. I could see them happening in the Methodist church, but not the AG or PCA.


I'm a committed United Methodist and would not have gotten involved with Soulforce had they not taken a stand against the oppressive policies of my own denomination. Twice I've engaged in Soulforce co-ordinated "disruptions" of United Methodist General Conferences.


I thought you'd enjoy a poem I wrote about the co-ordinated "disruptions" at the United Methodist General Conference. I actually know Greg Dell :)

http://securityreference.googlepages.com/dell.jpg

The Reverend Greg Dell

I saw you
surrounded by police
your face drawn by the sorrow
of a thousand gay lives
shattered in the conspiracy
that kills in the end.

You surrendered your freedom
with the descendants of
Ghandi and King
and honored my captivity
in the land of the free.

In your eyes misted by tears
I saw a vision of that day
my lover and I wept together
in the dark.
He drove away at dawn.

He believed the lie
that we weren’t ok
and I got left alone
with fierce love
and a memory.

The bars I’m behind
are not constructed in steel
but in thoughts as invisible as the wind
as strong as hurricanes
thoughts that bring the rains of loss.

The police put you in jail
with the descendants of
Ghandi and King
and behind those cold bars
you discovered me in your cell
and sat by my side.

[Diane Vera]

I'm 56 this May, and I've been a gay activist in the United Methodist Church for over 25 years--it's been slow going, but I've seen a lot of changes, good and bad. Tensions between "left and right" are much worse now than ever, but some think good things can come as such tensions eventually resolve.

I'd love it if you could tell us more (perhaps in a separate thread?) about goings-on within the United Methodist Church over the past 25 years regarding attitudes toward gays.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that the tensions between "right" and "left" within the "mainline" denominations will only get worse until those denominations finally split. After all, over the past 50 years or so, the mainline churches have been shrinking, whereas some of the more fundamenatlist-leaning denominations (such as the Assemblies of God) have been growing like wildfire. Also the more conservative branches of the mainline churches have been growing worldwide. (See my separate thread Worldwide religious trends (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2573).) So, with very few exceptions, the unfortunate reality is that the conservatives have little or no incentive to mellow out. If anything, they have plenty of incentive not to mellow out.

I think it will be a very long time before the conservative religious groups cease to believe that homosexuality is a sin. In the meantime, Soulforce is doing good work, opening the minds of individuals within these denominations. But it will be a long time before these individuals add up to enough to change the more conservative branches of Christianity as a whole. I doubt that the latter will happen within the lifetime of any of us.

[u-dog]

What a powerful poem Antony! Thanks for sharing that.

[JudB]

I too doubt that I will see any of these changes in my lifetime. Of course I am 60 and that doesn't give me quite as much lifetime as others. However, I wouldn't stop working for these changes and being visible. The conservative church is growing but that will change. It always does. We have to put the message out there again and again and again and the moment will come when more people will listen. When I am in the middle of it all time seems to move so slow.

[Diane Vera]

I'm all for "stirring things up" if you're aiming for a realistic dialogue. The problem is that these institutions keep perceiving Soulforce as a threat to their theological views and this severs dialogue. There has to be some give and take because that dialogue is all important.

The kind of dialogue you're suggesting as "realistic" would also require a much more sustained effort than Soulforce would be capable of mustering, given that Soulforce isn't focussed on just one denomination or institution.

As I see it, what Soulforce does accomplish is to open the minds of individuals. Those individuals, in turn, may decide to form or join organizations which engage in a more sustained and more "realistic" dialogue with their own particular denomination or institution.

[antonyh]

As I see it, what Soulforce does accomplish is to open the minds of individuals. Those individuals, in turn, may decide to form or join organizations which engage in a more sustained and more "realistic" dialogue with their own particular denomination or institution.

Very good point.

[kara speltz]

I saw you
surrounded by police
your face drawn by the sorrow
of a thousand gay lives
shattered in the conspiracy
that kills in the end.

You surrendered your freedom
with the descendants of
Ghandi and King
and honored my captivity
in the land of the free.

In your eyes misted by tears
I saw a vision of that day
my lover and I wept together
in the dark.
He drove away at dawn.

He believed the lie
that we weren’t ok
and I got left alone
with fierce love
and a memory.

The bars I’m behind
are not constructed in steel
but in thoughts as invisible as the wind
as strong as hurricanes
thoughts that bring the rains of loss.

The police put you in jail
with the descendants of
Ghandi and King
and behind those cold bars
you discovered me in your cell
and sat by my side.

Your poem brought tears to my eyes. I have such strong memories of Cleveland. It was our first, really large action and what an amazing experience it was. Thanks for bringing back those memories.

Kara

[antonyh]

As I understand your argument, you would rather the anti-gay beliefs of conservative christians not be challenged. This strikes me as a moot point, for the simple reason that an openly gay person on a conservative campus is in itself challenging to anti-gay beliefs no matter how Soulforces 'policy' is tweaked.


Not at all, simply that both sides already know what the other's beliefs are. Now how do we find common ground for realistic dialogue? A debate on the biblical/theological views of homosexuality will not get us there because both sides have drawn their lines in the sand.

I'm probably kidding myself about the possibility of dialogue (at least with the AG/PCA). I know in my personal life that the answer has been to put religion behind me.

[antonyh]

Your poem brought tears to my eyes. I have such strong memories of Cleveland. It was our first, really large action and what an amazing experience it was. Thanks for bringing back those memories.


Kara, then I saw you too.

[Steven E. Webster]

I'm probably kidding myself about the possibility of dialogue (at least with the AG/PCA). I know in my personal life that the answer has been to put religion behind me.

Anthony,

I also thank you for sharing the poem. I was among the Soulforce folks arrested at the Cleveland United Methodist General Conference. My partner and I spent the whole day being shifted from one jail to another. Briefly I sat in the same cell with Greg Dell. I admire Greg's work.

There are no easy responses to the statement you made (above). In the Soulforce method direct action (like those leading to arrests) are an attempt to initiate or re-open a dialogue that has been shut off.

We are going to need to challenge the beliefs of these folks who try to refuse dialogue, whose minds are made up--not because we want to get back into their churches, but because they threaten to impose a theocracy (or as Chris Hedges would have it, fascism) upon the rest of us. Gays are the scapegoats of choice for furthering their ends. I don't think we should go quietly. If they won't talk with us, at least they have to talk about us, and frankly, I think the more they talk about us the futher along we get. The numbers are changing in our favor despite recent years of right-wing religious propaganda.

Steven Webster

[Diane Vera]

Not at all, simply that both sides already know what the other's beliefs are.

Actually, it seems to me that the average evangelical is unlikely to be familiar with the details of any pro-gay religious view. They are unlikely to be familiar, for example, with the details of the debate over the meaning of certain Bible passages. Most conservative/evangelical Christians don't bother to study more "liberal" views in detail -- they just dismiss them as "unBiblical."

[antonyh]

I was among the Soulforce folks arrested at the Cleveland United Methodist General Conference. My partner and I spent the whole day being shifted from one jail to another. Briefly I sat in the same cell with Greg Dell. I admire Greg's work.

Thank you for sitting at my side.

[antonyh]

We are going to need to challenge the beliefs of these folks who try to refuse dialogue, whose minds are made up--not because we want to get back into their churches, but because they threaten to impose a theocracy (or as Chris Hedges would have it, fascism) upon the rest of us. Gays are the scapegoats of choice for furthering their ends. I don't think we should go quietly.


I have a poem for this too, but I'd better keep this one to myself LOL.

[Daniel]

I attended two institutions like the above and I know that they are never going to change their biblical/theological beliefs about homosexuality in my lifetime. Maybe I am being pessimistic, but I have eight years of experience in their institutions to make this assessment.

I wonder if Soulforce could keep "beliefs" off the table in their activism and simply address the lack of compassionate response to LGBTQ people who find themselves at these institutions. In otherwords, the dialogue would be about specific topics like:

1. Sexual orientation
2. The psychology of coming out
3. Testimonies about LGBTQ experiences in these institutions
4. The biblical mandate for a compassionate response
5. A workshop on how to handle LGBTQ students with respect and compassion.

In otherwords, keeping "beliefs" off the table would allow the realistic possibility for dialogue.

I would like to see the things you imagine happen. But there is something to be taken into account here: for many of these conservative colleges, what you are asking for- what is actually needed- that is- a compassionate response to those who are gay- is kept out of the argument by the worldview and beliefs that these institutions/persons maintain.

It is a catch 22 situation.

Do I imagine the 'other side' showing up at a conference set up by the Marin Foundation? Frankly speaking, I rather doubt it.

I can tell you how my fundi siblings dealt with the situation for many years: they just didn't talk about it (at least not to me! :rolleyes: ). Very Don't Ask Don't Tell. I think this is very prevelant for many families- not just my own. I'm not pessimistic per se, but I am aware that if is very difficult to get people to talk about something they don't want to talk about.

This is why I think the the methods of nonviolence actually can work: getting arresting is more than a publicity stunt. It can create the avenue for dialogue after all others avenues have been thwarted. And this may be a really stupid analogy, but every good story (as I learned in a writing class a few years ago) needs a point of tension to make the resolution all the more meaningful. It's called have a 'Dramatic Arch'. My observation is that life itself has something of a dramatic arch to it as well. Tension- which is what getting arrested engenders- furthers the story towards a better end.

Not at all, simply that both sides already know what the other's beliefs are. Now how do we find common ground for realistic dialogue? A debate on the biblical/theological views of homosexuality will not get us there because both sides have drawn their lines in the sand.

I'm probably kidding myself about the possibility of dialogue (at least with the AG/PCA). I know in my personal life that the answer has been to put religion behind me.

I'm not convinced- as is Diane- that the other 'side' knows what our 'side' believes. (And if they refuse to talk to gay people they aren't going to know are they?) Gay people keep coming out to themselves within conservative environments- which entails a great deal of processing on their part about matters biblical etc, while those who are straight really don't have any reason to investigate these matters except to keep their uniformed view intact.

I know I've had to generate some creative tension within my own family to further the dialogue- even to get it going. I didn't like it. It wasn't any fun. But it has taught me that if I don't care about these matters and do something about it, nothing will happen.

[antonyh]

I can tell you how my fundi siblings dealt with the situation for many years: they just didn't talk about it (at least not to me! :rolleyes: ). Very Don't Ask Don't Tell.

I guess we need to view Marin as the exception. My family was the same, took some time but we're making progress.

Did you guys see this press release from Americans for Truth. It only proves the complete unwillingness of many Evangelicals to even discuss the issue (although this guy sits somewhere between Phelps and the Fundies)...


“The truth is, Bob Jones, and every other Christian college on Soulforce’s target list, have nothing to apologize for and nothing to negotiate on the homosexual issue,” he said. “There is no more reason to engage in ‘dialogue’ on this question than any other sexual sin.”


http://americansfortruth.com/news/next-stop-in-soulforce%E2%80%99s-intimidation-campaign-against-christian-colleges-bob-jones-university.html

[Daniel]

Did you guys see this press release from Americans for Truth. It only proves the complete unwillingness of many Evangelicals to even discuss the issue (although this guy sits somewhere between Phelps and the Fundies)...

Nope. Missed that- so thank you for the link. Here's a bit of misinformation from the same source.

Genuine dialogue doesn’t come under threat of an angry protest,” LaBarbera said. “Imagine if your biggest critic demanded a ‘dialogue’ with you and then warned that if you didn’t bend to his wishes, he’d show up at your doorstep with 20 protesters. This is what Soulforce is doing to American Christian colleges as part of its unbiblical effort to win acceptance for changeable behavior that God condemns.

"Threat of an angry protest?"

I don't think so. Mr. BaBarbara is dead wrong. The principles of nonviolence don't make for a protest in keeping with the tactics of Act-Up (which is not to say that their approach is/was wrong. I don't think anyone can argue that they set gay rights back- their actions saved many people- and as such- is/was a compassionate response). This only shows that he doesn't have a clue about Soulforce and nonviolence in particular.

[Zerbie]

Oh my. This thread has so very many angles that can be delved into in depth - and are being deeply discussed!

Just interjecting for a brief moment because Antony, your poem stopped my heart for a moment. It's heartbreaking. Thank you for renewing my commitment and reminding me why I do this "activist stuff" - though I have always stopped far short of being arrested.

That's all. Thank you for the deeply moving poem.
My God!! I hope there are enough of us that we can effect a real change and end so many cumulative years of unnecessary sorrow and suffering.

[Alecto]

I'm going to admit, I only read some of the posts here (I promise I"ll come back when I have more time and read the whole thread), but I wanted to throw out there that A)Some beliefs NEED challenging and B)Aiming to challenge a belief is not necessarily the same as aiming to CHANGE a belief. A challenge would be a very thourough examination of what the belief is, and what it's founded on, and the validity of all of that. If one's goal is to go out and CHANGE everyone else's belief, that's not dialogue. Challenge, though, can lead to some very helpful dialogue.

*NB: I'm not affiliated with SF in any way other than hanging out on these forums, and I would by all means ASK for someone who is to correct anything I've said that's inaccurate to SF's beliefs, but...that just seems to make sense to me.

[antonyh]

I wonder if Soulforce could keep "beliefs" off the table in their activism and simply address the lack of compassionate response to LGBTQ people who find themselves at these institutions


The more I think about this, the more I realize that is sounds nice in theory, but I don't think the colleges would even dialogue under these conditions. I just don't think they would be able to keep their "beliefs" off the table long enough to see us as worthy of a compassionate response. Honestly, my experience in Evangelical circles has borne this out.

Marin is an exception but certainly a breath of fresh air in this space. I need to contact him and talk to him out of sheer curiosity.

Daniel, I was thinking last night that we have so much in common...the AG, similar family situations and an interest in meditation :)

[Steven E. Webster]

The more I think about this, the more I realize that is sounds nice in theory, but I don't think the colleges would even dialogue under these conditions. I just don't think they would be able to keep their "beliefs" off the table long enough to see us as worthy of a compassionate response. Honestly, my experience in Evangelical circles has borne this out.

Marin is an exception but certainly a breath of fresh air in this space. I need to contact him and talk to him out of sheer curiosity.


Who ever said a primary emphasis on having "correct beliefs" ("orthodoxy") is essential to being "evangelical"? I think this is a major divide among evangelicals--those for whom having "correct beliefs" is essential to salvation and those, like Mr Marin, who realize we aren't saved by our "correct beliefs," but by God's grace, and that "correct belief" is way down the list of priorities for Christians. Loving one's neighbor is at the top of the list. (This was the view of my denomination's hero, John Wesley, who was one of the leading "evangelicals" of the 18th century.)

Steven Webster

[Steven E. Webster]

I think this is a major divide among evangelicals--those for whom having "correct beliefs" is essential to salvation and those, like Mr Marin, who realize we aren't saved by our "correct beliefs," but by God's grace, and that "correct belief" is way down the list of priorities for Christians. Loving one's neighbor is at the top of the list.
Steven Webster

Actually, I think this divide is well-illustrated by the difference between the schools that have actually welcomed the Equality Riders and those, like Bob Jones, who have slammed the door. This is the irony, while it is the schools that arrest the riders that get the news media, it is the schools who have welcomed them that really show what the Equality Ride is about. I would not be nearly so supportive of the Equality Riders if they did not have the successful experiences that they had at Pepperdine or George Fox.

It is interesting that the West bus is having better luck this way than the East bus. There is a real difference between the cultures of the West and the Southeast U.S. (That's my impression.)

Steven Webster

[andrewlittle]

I love it - it seems to have captured many people's attention and passion.

I would like to revisit the concept of the E-Riders creating dialogue. I am not speaking from the perspective of Soulforce, per se, but from my own perspective. (Not original, BYT - I've read all of this on this site before.)

With the E-Riders confronting, non-violently of course, these Christian colleges it is obvious, from the responses here on these boards, that GLBT students are primary beneficiaries. If nothing else were accomplished, these students know that there are people out there who love them and embrace them as people and Christians. Their hearts, if they wish, are being opened to different ways of viewing themselves, and avoiding the violence and abuse stringent belief systems can impose.

I do not, beyond this, see much benefit coming from "changing" the institutions that these students attend. There may be an occasional one, or even just some of the administration or faculty, that takes the opportunity for self-examination and extends possibilities for dialogue - but they will be the exceptions, not the rule.

The next most important people, after students, that the E-Riders reach is the great big, central, numbed and (I know this is judgmental) uninformed majority of these good ol' United States. These actions bring coverage from the press and diatribe from other Christian organizations. They bring attention. That attention makes it difficult for some of the silent majority to remain ambivalent.

In short, the beneficiaries are those that engage, primarily students, and those that watch from a distance. Overwhelmingly, I believe the institutions come out looking mean, intolerant and exclusivist. That alone may make other people, who are on the fence or just to the right of it, reconsider the arguments being made. The aims, from my perspective, are to 1) reach the GLBT students suffering from the self-derision that these schools teach, and 2) reach the larger, more swayable, segment of society at large.

I would like to see these restrictive and abusive policies more and more considered to be anomalies of Christian thought, as opposed to "orthodox", and I think the E-Riders specifically and Soulforce generally are helping to accomplish this.

[NathanATX]

I love it - it seems to have captured many people's attention and passion.

I would like to revisit the concept of the E-Riders creating dialogue. I am not speaking from the perspective of Soulforce, per se, but from my own perspective. (Not original, BYT - I've read all of this on this site before.)

With the E-Riders confronting, non-violently of course, these Christian colleges it is obvious, from the responses here on these boards, that GLBT students are primary beneficiaries. If nothing else were accomplished, these students know that there are people out there who love them and embrace them as people and Christians. Their hearts, if they wish, are being opened to different ways of viewing themselves, and avoiding the violence and abuse stringent belief systems can impose.

I do not, beyond this, see much benefit coming from "changing" the institutions that these students attend. There may be an occasional one, or even just some of the administration or faculty, that takes the opportunity for self-examination and extends possibilities for dialogue - but they will be the exceptions, not the rule.

The next most important people, after students, that the E-Riders reach is the great big, central, numbed and (I know this is judgmental) uninformed majority of these good ol' United States. These actions bring coverage from the press and diatribe from other Christian organizations. They bring attention. That attention makes it difficult for some of the silent majority to remain ambivalent.

In short, the beneficiaries are those that engage, primarily students, and those that watch from a distance. Overwhelmingly, I believe the institutions come out looking mean, intolerant and exclusivist. That alone may make other people, who are on the fence or just to the right of it, reconsider the arguments being made. The aims, from my perspective, are to 1) reach the GLBT students suffering from the self-derision that these schools teach, and 2) reach the larger, more swayable, segment of society at large.

I would like to see these restrictive and abusive policies more and more considered to be anomalies of Christian thought, as opposed to "orthodox", and I think the E-Riders specifically and Soulforce generally are helping to accomplish this.

Just wanted to say that that's where these students are coming from... "Americana."

[Daniel]

Just interjecting for a brief moment because Antony, your poem stopped my heart for a moment. It's heartbreaking. Thank you for renewing my commitment and reminding me why I do this "activist stuff" - though I have always stopped far short of being arrested. .

Anthony- Yes. Thank you for the poem- I am remiss in not mentioning it earlier. It is heartstopping- in the best sense.

The more I think about this, the more I realize that is sounds nice in theory, but I don't think the colleges would even dialogue under these conditions. I just don't think they would be able to keep their "beliefs" off the table long enough to see us as worthy of a compassionate response. Honestly, my experience in Evangelical circles has borne this out.

You've said a mouthful here! And my experience aligns with yours. For me, it was like climbing out from under a rock- and a large one at that- which is something I didn't appreciate until much later.

Marin is an exception but certainly a breath of fresh air in this space. I need to contact him and talk to him out of sheer curiosity.

I would be very interested in what your impressions are of the person and his work.

Daniel, I was thinking last night that we have so much in common...the AG, similar family situations and an interest in meditation :)

Great minds think alike? :lol: Meditation has been my coping mechanism! I can only say that I was not willing to give up on that which which was numinous and transcendent in life when I left the AG- as I think many gay people do. They just put that part of themselves away in the wake of so much pain.

This is why I am moved by those on the ERide: young people are no longer willing to cower in the shadows and be dictated to by those who are blinded by fearful thoughts.

~

What is interesting is the change I have casually observed in the gay media since last year's ERide. A year ago I heard and read questioning and dismissive comments (ie how can any one organziation take on 'religion') on the part of gay activists (the gay cable network come to mind here), but now I hear words of respect and even admiration. There is no doubt in my mind that the efforts of Soulforce are bringing about change, both in the sub-culture of gay life and in religious institutions themselves.

To riff on the words of the now out lesbian Suze Orman ("People first, then money, then things"), this is how I see things playing out as regards conservative schools:

"People first, then beliefs, then policy."

[antonyh]

With the E-Riders confronting, non-violently of course, these Christian colleges it is obvious, from the responses here on these boards, that GLBT students are primary beneficiaries. If nothing else were accomplished, these students know that there are people out there who love them and embrace them as people and Christians. Their hearts, if they wish, are being opened to different ways of viewing themselves, and avoiding the violence and abuse stringent belief systems can impose.

I do not, beyond this, see much benefit coming from "changing" the institutions that these students attend. There may be an occasional one, or even just some of the administration or faculty, that takes the opportunity for self-examination and extends possibilities for dialogue - but they will be the exceptions, not the rule.

The next most important people, after students, that the E-Riders reach is the great big, central, numbed and (I know this is judgmental) uninformed majority of these good ol' United States. These actions bring coverage from the press and diatribe from other Christian organizations. They bring attention. That attention makes it difficult for some of the silent majority to remain ambivalent.

In short, the beneficiaries are those that engage, primarily students, and those that watch from a distance. Overwhelmingly, I believe the institutions come out looking mean, intolerant and exclusivist. That alone may make other people, who are on the fence or just to the right of it, reconsider the arguments being made. The aims, from my perspective, are to 1) reach the GLBT students suffering from the self-derision that these schools teach, and 2) reach the larger, more swayable, segment of society at large.


You're saying that even if these institutions will not dialogue, the collateral benefits of nonviolent resistance are extremely valuable. No doubt about that :)

[kara speltz]

My guess is that we'll never fully comprehend the changes that Equality Ride has brought. I was recalling our time at Abilene Christian last year. And it was amazing. The fact that they followed up by adding recommended books to their library and an effort to make their counseling offices a safe haven is gigantic, when you think about it. There is no telling how, just these changes, will change lives.

Multiply that by the numbers of schools that have begun the dialogue and it feels almost incomprehensible to me. I always felt that the Equality Ride was a really important program. But I have to be honest. I never, ever expected the response they are getting.

Kara

[antonyh]

:headbang: I will not let the gays get my theology

[kara speltz]

you know the question itself to me is inane when you really think about it. How "realistic" was the passion of Christ?

And that might sound sacraligious, but it's not. When we chose to take on suffering, for the sake of others, it becomes redemptive, whether we fully understand it or not. kara

[JudB]

Dialogue is probably not possible. The lines in the sand are drawn. It is just about be a visible presence time after time after time.

[scott snedeker]

My guess is that we'll never fully comprehend the changes that Equality Ride has brought. I was recalling our time at Abilene Christian last year. And it was amazing. The fact that they followed up by adding recommended books to their library and an effort to make their counseling offices a safe haven is gigantic, when you think about it. There is no telling how, just these changes, will change lives.

Multiply that by the numbers of schools that have begun the dialogue and it feels almost incomprehensible to me. I always felt that the Equality Ride was a really important program. But I have to be honest. I never, ever expected the response they are getting.

Kara

Any guess would be less than 1% of the true positive impact! Keep it going!

[antonyh]

I've been thinking about the diverse response Evangelical Christians have toward homosexuality (and Soulforce in particular) and sketched it out below (this is pretty rough). I started this thread essentially saying that Soulforce might increase the possibility for dialogue by approaching these schools in the relational domain. "Our aim is to discuss moving your institution from hostility to hospitality. Let's leave the theological and political domains off the table for now."

There is absolutely no biblical/theological reason for these schools to have an arrow pointing into the hostility/relational box. This is where the Pharisees lived and we know what Jesus felt about them.

I'm hearing from this discussion that people in the hostility/relational box need to be agitated out of their hard-heartedness. This is what Jesus did to the Pharisees so you're definitely have solid precedent :) (Of course, they crucified him).

I am also hearing that moving these institutions out of their hostility/theological box will be much more difficult, if not impossible.

Evangelical Christian Response Matrix

http://securityreference.googlepages.com/response.gif

The Marin Foundation:
http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/andrewmarin/
http://www.themarinfoundation.org/index.htm

Americans for Truth:
http://americansfortruth.com/news/next-stop-in-soulforce%E2%80%99s-intimidation-campaign-against-christian-colleges-bob-jones-university.html

Central Bible College:
http://www.cbcag.edu/news.asp?id=33

Covenant College:
http://chattablogs.com/quintus/equality-ride-covenant.pdf

Fresno Pacific College:
http://www.soulforce.org/article/1233

Do you think Evangelicals may not be of one mind? That is a good sign.

[Steven E. Webster]

Antony,

Your chart makes one interesting point--that is that Evangelicals are not a uniform pea-soup, but a stew containing a lot of variety. By "stirring the pot" Soulforce brings out important differences among Evangelicals.

Perhaps those Evangelicals who are more hospitable will be more stimulated to make their voices and points of view more widely known. Perhaps they'll differentiate themselves more clearly from really bad characters like Peter LaBabera (LaBarbera's obsession with the most lurid corners of gay subculture has earned him the nick name "Porno Pete").

Looking over our movement over the long haul it appears to me that we fair better when there is public attention/discussion then in the bad old days when people would barely speak the word "homosexual" or acknowledge our existence. These are uncomfortable times for us--tensions are higher, threats seem more dire--but at the same time trends in public opinion seem to be moving our direction.

Steven Webster

[davidb]

You got a really interesting discussion going, Antony. I've been thinking alot about these things myself. Tonite I found this page on Cedarville College's web site (this institution is the most closely aligned to the Baptist group I grew up in, I went to a sister school of theirs) where they discuss how they are preparing for the Equality Riders:

http://www.cedarville.edu/speakingtruth/seminars.cfm

The discussions are really quite interesting, and less hostile than I imagined. I must say that they have come a looooong way from where they were when I was a wee lad. And they've taken alot of flak for it, most of the hard core Baptists have cut ties with them. They are planning to let the EQ riders on their campus and are hosting several forums. They are also preparing a team of students (who are receiving a crash course in their indoctrination) to meet with the EQ riders to do some of the actual debating, with the goal of winning these individuals back to christ.

Cedarville's position is still rejection/judgment, but the fact that they are willing to admit that they have students/faculty/alumni who have struggled with their sexuality is simply amazing to me. And I agree that it's pointless to argue with their theological stance, because they are not going to give on that. What is more dynamic--imho--is to find glbt people who have been part of their particular institution to tell their story, and talk about how hostile and "un-christlike" (if you will) the response has typically been. In the first video, when the Director of Student Affairs begins to reflect on the people who have left their community over this issue, he breaks into tears.

For me its the human stories that really break the ice on the issue.

____________________________________________
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.

--Emerson

[antonyh]

http://www.cedarville.edu/speakingtruth/seminars.cfm
The discussions are really quite interesting, and less hostile than I imagined. I must say that they have come a looooong way from where they were when I was a wee lad.


I listened to the first lecture. Very interesting. It looks like they are with Fresno Pacific University, in the hospitality/relational box and the hostility/theological box.

Yes, it is human contact that will bring about change.

[antonyh]

Your chart makes one interesting point--that is that Evangelicals are not a uniform pea-soup, but a stew containing a lot of variety. By "stirring the pot" Soulforce brings out important differences among Evangelicals.

Perhaps those Evangelicals who are more hospitable will be more stimulated to make their voices and points of view more widely known.


This is definitely one of the most powerful features about the ER. Institutions are positioning themselves and seeing how others position themselves. I hope this does start a dialogue among Evangelicals about the issue.

You're right...visibility is making this conversation possible.

[Daniel]

As I see it, in the end, that is all we have to do. Show up.

Bearing witness to the suffering that is caused by anti-gay beliefs is bearing witness to suffering everywhere. It gets to the heart of what matters to human beings: no one likes to suffer. No one wants to suffer.

Real contact with another human being (ERiders) who can look you in the eye and connect with you without judgement is, in and of itself, the ground for change. It is an act of love.

And while it has been expressed more than once on this thread that the anti-gay attitudes of those in the Hostility/Theological axis (interesting chart Anthony!) are never going to change and that dialogue is not possible, I do not agree. It may take a long time, even a life-time, but it will come.

Here's where the relentless part kicks in, right?

My friends, let us not give up when the journey has just started.

A friend sent me the following story, which made me smile, and speaks to the issue here.


Once upon a time there was a bunch of tiny frogs.... who arranged a running competition.
The goal was to reach the top of a very high tower.
A big crowd had gathered around the tower to see the race and cheer on the contestants....
The race began....
Honestly: No one in the crowd really believed that the tiny frogs would reach the top of the tower.
Everyone was saying:
"Oh, WAY too difficult!!"
"They will NEVER make it to the top."
or:
"Not a chance that they will succeed. The tower is too high!"
The tiny frogs began collapsing, one by one....
Except for those, who in a fresh tempo, were climbing higher and higher....
The crowd continued to yell, "It is too difficult!!!

No one will make it!"
More tiny frogs got tired and gave up....
But ONE continued higher and higher and higher....
This one wouldn't give up!
At the end everyone else had given up climbing the tower. Except for the one tiny frog who, after a big effort, was the only one who reached the top!
THEN all of the other tiny frogs naturally wanted to know how this one frog managed to do it?
A contestant asked the tiny frog how he had found the strength to succeed and reach the goal?

It turned out....
That the winner was DEAF!!!!

The wisdom of this story is:
Never listen to other people's tendencies to be negative or pessimistic.... because they take your most wonderful dreams and wishes away from you -- the ones you have in your heart!
Always think of the power words have. Because everything you hear and read will affect your actions!
Therefore:
ALWAYS be.... POSITIVE!
And above all:
Be DEAF when people tell YOU that you cannot fulfill your dreams!
Always think:
God and I can do this!

To The World You Might Be One Person; But To One Person You Might Be the World.

You have been Tagged by the Froggy, which means you are a great friend!!

If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

Let's all be deaf!

[antonyh]

As I see it, in the end, that is all we have to do. Show up.

Bearing witness to the suffering that is caused by anti-gay beliefs is bearing witness to suffering everywhere. It gets to the heart of what matters to human beings: no one likes to suffer. No one wants to suffer.

Real contact with another human being (ERiders) who can look you in the eye and connect with you without judgement is, in and of itself, the ground for change. It is an act of love.

And while it has been expressed more than once on this thread that the anti-gay attitudes of those in the Hostility/Theological axis (interesting chart Anthony!) are never going to change and that dialogue is not possible, I do not agree. It may take a long time, even a life-time, but it will come.


I like the idea of just showing up. I still find myself being a little pessemistic about theological change. That said, Andrew Marin is willing to say we are sinners, but our 'sin' will not send us to hell and hey, we're all sinners in need of grace. There's progress :)

I'll try to be an optimistic frog :rofl:

[BrentRichards]

Can I just add to all of this:

Is Soulforce being realistic? I certainly hope not! I know if I were being realistic, I'd have stayed in the closet and let the homophobes win ... there's more of them, and they've got the upper hand.

Thank God for a glorious lack of realism!

[antonyh]

Can I just add to all of this:

Is Soulforce being realistic? I certainly hope not! I know if I were being realistic, I'd have stayed in the closet and let the homophobes win ... there's more of them, and they've got the upper hand.

Thank God for a glorious lack of realism!

Since reading out of context seems to be common on this thread, I changed the title above :rolleyes: Sorry if this offends the possibility thinkers amongst us :)

[tdogg]

And while it has been expressed more than once on this thread that the anti-gay attitudes of those in the Hostility/Theological axis (interesting chart Anthony!) are never going to change and that dialogue is not possible, I do not agree. It may take a long time, even a life-time, but it will come.

Here's where the relentless part kicks in, right?

My friends, let us not give up when the journey has just started.



Exactly what I've been thinking! I agree Daniel, I do believe it's not only possible but probably, and I believe we will see some real change IN OUR LIFETIMES! Perhaps I'm a bit optimistic (yes I tend to be), but I truly believe this. Yes, it's exactly why our actions must be RELENTLESS. If we slow down or stop or give them a 'breather' we lose momentum. Keep at it, keep out there, keep on truckin'.

Hmmm, maybe sort of like flying geese. They travel in flocks, "V" formations and all take a turn at leading. When the leaders get tired they retreat to the back to catch a rest on the efforts of the leaders, but they are constantly moving to get to their predestined goal. They would get there faster if everyone led the entire time, but many more would not get there. But by being relentless, steady and sure, they all (well mostly) arrive at 'Point B' in good shape.

[antonyh]

Exactly what I've been thinking! I agree Daniel, I do believe it's not only possible but probably, and I believe we will see some real change IN OUR LIFETIMES! Perhaps I'm a bit optimistic (yes I tend to be), but I truly believe this. Yes, it's exactly why our actions must be RELENTLESS. If we slow down or stop or give them a 'breather' we lose momentum. Keep at it, keep out there, keep on truckin'.


So you would agree with Covenant College's assessment of the ultimate goals of the Equality Ride:

"The rides stated mission is to challenge Covenant's biblical view of sexuality and policies on sexual behavior, which they view as discriminatory and oppressive. This explicit goal makes it very clear that they are not interested in genuine dialogue, but rather are missionally committed to changing Covenent from its foundations up."

[tdogg]

So you would agree with Covenant College's assessment of the ultimate goals of the Equality Ride:

"The rides stated mission is to challenge Covenant's biblical view of sexuality and policies on sexual behavior, which they view as discriminatory and oppressive. This explicit goal makes it very clear that they are not interested in genuine dialogue, but rather are missionally committed to changing Covenent from its foundations up."

Hi Antony!

I would say CC's assessment of the ER ride pertaining to not interested in genuine dialogue is incorrect. I believe they are very interested in genuine dialogue. No real change can occur without some genuine dialogue.

Women were oppressed (still are) because of some people's Biblical views. Various races were (still are) because of some people's Biblical views. In order to affect significant change, people will have to ENGAGE in dialogue and yes, even change their views (Biblical or otherwise).

To give you an opinion of the ER Ride's mission, I would have to go back and re-read all of that on their web site. Since your post seems to state Covenant's College's opinion of the ER Ride's mission, I can't be sure that's what their mission statement is or if it's complete. However, should that be the mission statement or a part of, I would say, yes I STILL agree that the ER ride is a good thing, necessary and people's views are going to have to change (and they are changing, perhaps slowly but change is happening).

[kara speltz]

One of the principles of nonviolence is that we don't give up hope. I've written extensively about my own personal experience when last year's Equality Riders went to Abilene Christian University. Founded 100 years ago by the conservative Church of Christ, many of my friends said it would be impossible to have any real effect on ACU. But we went there with open hearts and were received with open hearts and amazing things happened.

The change is in process - two specific results from our visit last year are 1) a commitment to making the counseling offices a safe space for LGBTs, and 2) opening up their library to include almost all of the books recommended by Soulforce.

I think that's pretty amazing. And that was just one of many schools that were visited last year. While we can't expect all of those schools who welcomed us on their campuses to respond exactly the same. What I think we can expect is that many hearts and minds have been touched and changed in the dialogue that was started, just a year ago.

That's why I am such a supporter of the Equality Rides. I can't think of anything else Soulforce has done it its short eight year history that has affected so many people.

To give up on some one is to deny them the capacity for change that God gives each and every one of us, if we will just accept it. And I know that my time on the Equality Ride changed me. And that experience showed me the power of nonviolence. For I had my own prejudices that had to be confronted.

kara

[antonyh]

Women were oppressed (still are) because of some people's Biblical views. Various races were (still are) because of some people's Biblical views. In order to affect significant change, people will have to ENGAGE in dialogue and yes, even change their views (Biblical or otherwise).


You're right, people have changed their interpretation of the Bible over time as they understood the social issue and the people affected by the social issue. I don't believe the Bible is clear on this issue at all and hold out great hope for change.

[antonyh]

The change is in process - two specific results from our visit last year are 1) a commitment to making the counseling offices a safe space for LGBTs, and 2) opening up their library to include almost all of the books recommended by Soulforce.


That is really great. There is no doubt that the Equality Ride is making history and will change a lot of lives.

[doom1701]

If I could, as a total newb to the forum, interject a thought: I completely understand antonyh's original point...but I have to disagree. Like I mentioned in Hello, My Name Is..., I learned of Soulforce from a letter sent out by my old school (Cornerstone University), preparing alumni and staff for how the school plans to handle the upcoming "uninvited" visit. I was floored to find that there was an organization that shares some of my beliefs--that the Bible is silent on "modern" homosexuality. It's a viewpoint that I've been trying to get across to other Christians for years.

In my limited work, I've actually made some headway. But that headway comes from sitting a Bible believing evangelical Christian down in front of the Word and saying "No, *this* is what the Bible says."

But evangelical Christianity, and Conservatism in general (yup, still a Republican, at least until a Libertarian with half a chance finally runs for something) is bombarded by people telling us that we don't care enough, or that we don't give enough, or that our desire to share our faith with others is offensive. I'm not going to beat anyone over the head with my Bible, but Christ told us to spread the Gospel to the world, and I'm not going to shut up because someone doesn't like it.

Approaching someone who believes homosexuality is a sin against God and trying to tell them "You can have your belief, but please be more accepting" is really no different. It's telling them "I know what God says, but not offending me is more important." That just doesn't fly. Conservative Christians are ingrained with the idea that the greatest tool of the destroyer is apathy (in reality, it's guilt--but that's another thread). Asking for acceptance is seen as apathy in a different outfit.

But I can tell you that there is an ache within Christianity--we see GLBT (am I allowed to use that term as a straight guy? :) ) individuals as productive members of society, parents, friends, and even brothers and sisters. Deep down, many Christians want to try to comprehend why God tells them to hate their GLBT family and friends. They follow the commands, but they don't really want to. When I've been able to sit down with people in that position and explain to them that God never says such a thing, and then explain what the Bible is talking about the 3 times that the NT mentions homosexuality, there's a resulting combination of curiosity and relief that tells me that they are open to actually learning the truth, rather than the propoganda they've been fed all their lives.

If the bus tour can open the eyes of even a few people like this, I'd say that an attempt to 'change beliefs' was a resounding success. Ultimately, the people who will have their eyes opened are not the braindead loudmouths, but the thinkers and scholars--the people who will shape the evangelical church in years to come.

[antonyh]

But I can tell you that there is an ache within Christianity--we see GLBT (am I allowed to use that term as a straight guy? :) ) individuals as productive members of society, parents, friends, and even brothers and sisters. Deep down, many Christians want to try to comprehend why God tells them to hate their GLBT family and friends. They follow the commands, but they don't really want to. When I've been able to sit down with people in that position and explain to them that God never says such a thing, and then explain what the Bible is talking about the 3 times that the NT mentions homosexuality, there's a resulting combination of curiosity and relief that tells me that they are open to actually learning the truth, rather than the propoganda they've been fed all their lives.

I am glad you're here and that you've jumped right into this discussion. It is going to take me a little while to digest what you're saying and I may discuss more later. But I wanted to make a few initial comments.

I have always felt that homophobia is the first issue and Biblical interpretation is the second issue. Homophobia is not unique to the Christian church, but actually prevades the whole of society. There is a great site on homophobia at UC Davis:
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/sexual_prejudice.html

Homophobia colors how Evangelical Christians interpret the Biblical text. Sexual prejudice prevents Evangelical Christians from doing the difficult work of exploring the modern, scientific understanding of 'sexual orientation' and the difficult work of understanding what the Bible is actually addressing in it's cultural setting. Sexual prejudice is the roadblock, the constraint that prevents people from reaching your mature grasp of the issue.

If the Soulforce Equality ride has revealed anything, it is that in the majority (not all) of the Christian colleges visited, homophobia, heterosexism and sexual prejudice are alive and well.

There is something to be said for prodding Evangelicals to be hospitable to LGBTQ people (you're welcome to use this term). When college kids meet us and discover how fabulous we are;) , then cords of prejudice will unravel from around their hearts and they will be able to approach Biblical interpretation with more objectivity.

There is validity in approaching the issue in the relational domain and asking for a response of hospitality because it is prejudice that roadblocks theological progress.

[kara speltz]

There is something to be said for prodding Evangelicals to be hospitable to LGBTQ people (you're welcome to use this term). When college kids meet us and discover how fabulous we are;) , then cords of prejudice will unravel from around their hearts and they will be able to approach Biblical interpretation with more objectivity.

There is validity in approaching the issue in the relational domain and asking for a response of hospitality because it is prejudice that roadblocks theological progress.

I suspect the thing that changes these college students most is when they experience the deep faith that so many LGBTQ people have. They've been told we're all Godless and hateful and when they see us as people of faith, it begins to break down the prejudices. I can't tell you how many times, when I sit down and talk about my faith, people first look at me confused. I can see it in their expressions as I freely share my faith experiences. You can almost read the question in their eyes. How can this be? How can she, a lesbian be so filled with faith?

As someone said in this thread. We just have to show up and reflect the love of God and for those who's hearts are open, the prejudices begin to tumble. I suspect on some level these administrators of these schools sense that and its what causes them so much fear - a fear that allows them to arrest people to stop that understanding.

kara

[doom1701]

I am glad you're here and that you've jumped right into this discussion. It is going to take me a little while to digest what you're saying and I may discuss more later. But I wanted to make a few initial comments.

I have always felt that homophobia is the first issue and Biblical interpretation is the second issue. Homophobia is not unique to the Christian church, but actually prevades the whole of society. There is a great site on homophobia at UC Davis:
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/sexual_prejudice.html

Homophobia colors how Evangelical Christians interpret the Biblical text. Sexual prejudice prevents Evangelical Christians from doing the difficult work of exploring the modern, scientific understanding of 'sexual orientation' and the difficult work of understanding what the Bible is actually addressing in it's cultural setting. Sexual prejudice is the roadblock, the constraint that prevents people from reaching your mature grasp of the issue.

That I would agree with--but I would say that everyone, even Evangelicals, are slowly shedding their fears and (to a certain extent) prejudices as homosexuality (I'm gonna stay general here) becomes more noticeable in society to them. When a guy that we thought was gay (he's now married, so maybe we were wrong) moved in next to my parents, and my dad's attitude was that he was going to be friendly to the guy as long as he didn't have to talk about sex with him, I was floored. If my dad can go from "stone all the gays" to actually having friendly conversations with a homosexual daily, then anyone can change.

The fear and bigotry is still there, no doubt, but it's my experience that there is a much larger body of believers who don't practice an active prejudice, and simply need their eyes opened to the *truth* of scripture.

[antonyh]

That I would agree with--but I would say that everyone, even Evangelicals, are slowly shedding their fears and (to a certain extent) prejudices as homosexuality (I'm gonna stay general here) becomes more noticeable in society to them...

The fear and bigotry is still there, no doubt, but it's my experience that there is a much larger body of believers who don't practice an active prejudice, and simply need their eyes opened to the *truth* of scripture.


It is hard for me to really gage the climate in the Evangelical church since I left it ten years ago. All I have to go on is the response to the Equality Riders. I think the response grid above shows that Evangelicals are not of one mind on the issue. Some of us who where there ten years ago are less optimistic, but part of Soulforce's credo is that the adversary has the capacity to change.

One of the best books I have ever read on what the Bible is actually addressing is Homoeroticism in the Biblical World: A Historical Perspective by Martti Nissinen (Author), Kirsi Stjerna (Translator).
http://www.amazon.com/Homoeroticism-Biblical-World-Historical-Perspective/dp/0800636457/ref=sr_1_1/103-1168593-8067000?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176732216&sr=8-1

This summarizes the book well:

"For readers interested in the ancient world or contemporary debates, Nissinen's fascinating study shows why the ancient texts—both biblical and nonbiblical—are not appropriate for use as sources of direct analogy or argument in today's discussion."