Sherrie Z
04-10-2007, 03:56 AM
CNN Transcript ("Sex and Salvation") Part One of Two
*** NOTE: Shawn O'Donnell (ex-ex-gay) is included in Part One ***
(Part Two includes a pastoral debate on homosexuality)
SEE BOTH PARTS of this two part post ... divided due to space limitations
EXCERPTS from CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees" -- Aired April 5, 2007
Special edition of "360 WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN, SEX AND SALVATION.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0704/05/acd.01.html
************************************************** *******************
EXCERPT:
COOPER: Another path hotly debated, of course, is homosexuality. It's a major issue in the Catholic Church and with many evangelicals.
But it's also dividing mainline Protestant denominations like the Episcopal Church in America, who are at odds over an openly gay bishop and same-sex unions. For years, gay and lesbian Christians have struggled for acceptance within their churches. For them, many of them, it's been a painful journey. Their faith and their sexuality are not always in sync.
Well, now, some are convinced that therapy and prayer can change that. The medical community disagrees. And the gay and lesbian community say the so-called cure is a fraud.
CNN's Gary Tuchman investigates.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): By the hundreds, they stream into this massive church in Phoenix.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Enjoy. Have a great day.
TUCHMAN: Parents, grandparents, teenagers, and young adults, all denominations, many filled with hope, others with dread -- from the pulpit, words of compassion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to show the gay and lesbian community that we love them.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCHMAN: Actually, it's more complicated than that. This is anything but a call for tolerance of homosexuality.
DR. JOSEPH NICOLOSI, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE RESEARCH AND THERAPY OF HOMOSEXUALITY: We -- as citizens, we need to articulate God's intent for human sexuality. And that's what we need to do. We're not just opposing homosexuality. We're articulating the wisdom of heterosexuality.
TUCHMAN: This gathering is called the Love Won Out conference, organized by the Christian ministry Focus on the Family. Organizers claim homosexuality is a treatable psychological disorder, that, with enough therapy and enough prayer, can be cured.
Californians Mark and Penny (ph) Vatcher are looking to cure their 16-year-old son, Brett.
BRETT VATCHER, CONFERENCE ATTENDEE: My dad found this online. So, he wanted us to drive out here from San Diego.
TUCHMAN (on camera): I mean, do you want to be here?
VATCHER: No.
(LAUGHTER)
VATCHER: Not really. I don't know. He's wicked religious. And he doesn't like that I'm gay.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): We will come back to Brett in a moment.
You should know the theory that homosexuality is a treatable disorder is flat-out rejected by the mainstream psychiatric community. And, yet, for more than a decade, Mike Haley (ph) lived as an openly- gay man, but then:
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I realized that I had fallen in love with this girl.
TUCHMAN: He says that life-changing moment, that switch to heterosexuality, came after a long and painful struggle. Today, he's married with three children.
Melissa Fryrear had a similar conversion.
MELISSA FRYREAR, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY: And I don't know what it is about red-headed men, but whew.
(LAUGHTER)
FRYREAR: Buh-boom-buh-boom-buh-boom, my heart -- my heart goes a little pitter-patter when I see those red-headed men.
TUCHMAN: She's straight now, but says she was a lesbian for 10 years.
FRYREAR: I had had dozens of relationships. I wasn't happy. I was abusing alcohol, abusing drugs. My life was just mismanaged.
TUCHMAN: At Love Won Out, self-proclaimed ex-gays like Haley (ph) and Fryrear enthusiastically regale the crowd with their personal stories.
Dr. Joseph Nicolosi is at the center of this. He's an unorthodox Catholic psychologist. He runs the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality.
NICOLOSI: Homosexuality, as we said, is a gender-identity problem.
TUCHMAN: Nicolosi concludes boys can become gay if they don't get enough attention from their fathers or if they were abused as children.
NICOLOSI: The guy with a homosexual problem does not trust men. When he begins to trust men, his homosexuality disappears.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Appropriate parental reaction requires good judgment.
TUCHMAN: As for 16-year-old Brett and his parents, the morning session convinced the father that Brett was not born gay.
MARK VATCHER, CONFERENCE ATTENDEE: ... circumstances in his life that caused him to get to this point.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Like what?
M. VATCHER: Maybe -- maybe I wasn't a good dad, or maybe, you know, somebody abused him along the way. Who knows what happened?
TUCHMAN: Did anybody abuse you?
B. VATCHER: No.
(LAUGHTER)
TUCHMAN: Was he a good dad?
B. VATCHER: Yes.
M. VATCHER: Oh, yes.
(LAUGHTER)
B. VATCHER: I just want to say yes.
(LAUGHTER)
M. VATCHER: Uh-huh.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Brett, for his part, does not agree with Nicolosi's lecture.
NICOLOSI: And, indeed, it appears that these children are normal. They're particularly intelligent. They're very astute. They're very sociable. They're charming. They're very verbal and sensitive.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Does this have a chance of succeeding with you?
B. VATCHER: No. Don't tell my parents.
(LAUGHTER)
B. VATCHER: No.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Joseph Nicolosi often accuses the media of distorting his research. He was reluctant to speak with us.
(on camera): We were hoping we can talk to you when it's over.
NICOLOSI: Yes. OK. Well, I don't think so.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Eventually, he did agree to go on camera, but:
(on camera): You're categorically saying that, if a father and son have a normal relationship, that child will not be gay?
NICOLOSI: Yes.
TUCHMAN: That's a pretty strong statement, right?
NICOLOSI: You want to debate? Do you want an answer or you want to debate?
TUCHMAN: Well...
NICOLOSI: I gave you an answer.
TUCHMAN: Yes.
So, there are some stereotypes you talk about, how, you know, if a child's effeminate, if he's creative, he's artistic, those are things to look out for. Is that fair to say?
NICOLOSI: Goodbye. You're confusing effeminacy with artistic. I didn't say artistic.
Here.
TUCHMAN: Hey, Doctor?
(voice-over): For the record, the word "artistic" is right here in the Love Won Out literature.
As for Mike Haley (ph), the recent convert to heterosexuality:
(on camera): Any homosexual who wants to, do you think they can become heterosexual? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, every single person that wants to leave homosexuality can do it.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): But how? Is there really a treatment for homosexuality? Or is the so-called cure just another path to pain?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Up next: some answers to those questions. And we will see how this controversial Christian therapy has impacted the lives of some who have tried it.
Also tonight: porn addiction.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The stats don't lie, that Christians are consuming pornography. I have women, men, children, pastors. I mean, a huge amount of pastors admitted to struggling with pornography.
COOPER (voice-over): And he's trying to heal them, he says with God's grace. Tonight, meet the man who started the number-one Christian porn site. But it's not what you think.
Plus: sermons on sex.
MATT KELLER, PASTOR, NEXT LEVEL CHURCH: God created sex. Why not at least tell people what he has to say about it?
COOPER: A church goes where few others have gone, between the sheets, when "What Is a Christian?: Sex and Salvation" continues.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL EDWARD EGAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: He taught us and all who would listen that our God is our father. He taught us that we are to love that God with all our hearts, minds and souls. And he added, we are to love our neighbor as ourselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Welcome back to "What Is a Christian?: Sex and Salvation."
We're looking at how some Christians are trying to turn gay people straight through years of intensive prayer and therapy. It's a controversial tactic. The medical community says it doesn't work. But some claim they have been cured. And others say they have gone through pure hell.
Once again, here's CNN's Gary Tuchman. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Men, women looking for a way to exorcise homosexuality here at a gathering in Phoenix called Love Won Out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There will be people there that are just, you know, searching for more information.
TUCHMAN: Christian ministries offer referrals to various treatment programs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have a good day now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will. I am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
TUCHMAN: With more than 120 local branches in North America, Exodus International calls itself the world's largest ex-gay referral service.
ALAN CHAMBERS, PRESIDENT, EXODUS INTERNATIONAL: You have got to have healthy expectations.
TUCHMAN: Exodus president Alan Chambers says his own journey from homosexuality to heterosexuality followed a long and difficult path.
(on camera): How did you do it?
CHAMBERS: Well, it's not like a light switch. I didn't -- I didn't flip it on and flip it off. It was years of work.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Not everyone has had the same result.
(on camera): Shawn, when did you realize you were gay?
SHAWN O'DONNELL, UNDERWENT EX-GAY THERAPY: At the age of 6, I realized I was different from other boys. And it wasn't until later on that I actually associated the word gay with that. I was 10.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Growing up gay in Elgin, Illinois, wasn't easy for Shawn O'Donnell. His Catholic parents were loving. But the kids at school were merciless.
O'DONNELL: I had very low self-esteem, hated myself.
TUCHMAN: It got worse when, at age 10, Shawn was born-again and joined an evangelical church.
(on camera): How important was religion in your life at that time?
O'DONNELL: Extremely important. It was the top of my list. I went to church four or five times a week. I mean, I was always at church. I was so involved in it, missions trips, Bible studies, prayer groups.
TUCHMAN: And, if you're gay, you believe you're going to hell?
O'DONNELL: Right.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): It was too much for the boy. He started cutting himself. He attempted suicide. And, finally, at 18, he came out to his pastor.
(on camera): Did you feel like he was angry at you?
O'DONNELL: No. No. He was very compassionate, with the understanding that I needed help.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Shawn's pastor referred him to therapy at a local ex-gay organization.
O'DONNELL: I had to deal with my father issues. And I had to deal with my mother issues. And I had to deal with -- you know, I was never molested. So, that wasn't an issue. But that also was an issue that they brought up. If I was, that could have pushed me to be gay.
TUCHMAN: At times, Shawn says he felt like he was making the transition from homosexuality to heterosexuality.
O'DONNELL: Well, I thought I would go a couple days without being attracted to other men. But, then -- you know, then I would have a sexual slip-up. So, then, I thought, wow, you know, I'm failing again.
TUCHMAN: Five years into therapy, Shawn hit another low point and again tried to kill himself. Desperate, he moved to California, and joined a live-in program for gay men trying to become straight.
O'DONNELL: Very controlling environment. We went to work. We -- after we got home, we had dinner together. We didn't go places alone, other than to work and back. We were always in groups of two or three. Sundays, we went to church together. And we had curfews.
TUCHMAN: Shawn says he was totally committed to the program.
O'DONNELL: God, if anybody tried to do this, I tried. I -- I did pray so many hours and sweat so many tears.
And, you know, the -- the picture I get is Jesus at the Garden of Gethsemane, when he sweat blood. You know, if I could have sweat blood, I would have.
My first year into it, I just -- I felt great. I graduated through the first year. They had a graduation ceremony. I thought, oh, you know, I'm going to make it. This is all that I needed. Then, I had a slip with one of the guys in the house.
TUCHMAN: The next day, Shawn drove into San Francisco and had a one-night stand with a man.
O'DONNELL: You know what? That was it. I was done. I had given it the good old college try. I decided I was going to come out again.
TUCHMAN: This is what the accomplished psychological community says about homosexuality.
CLINTON ANDERSON, AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION: There is no conclusive research that explains why people become gay or why they become straight, for that matter.
GARY TUCHMAN: Dr. Clinton Anderson handles gay and lesbian issues for the American Psychological Association. The APA categorically rejects theories about causes for homosexuality.
ANDERSON: Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. And does not in any sense need to be treated or need to be cured.
GARY TUCHMAN: But many of the people struggling with their sexuality here in phoenix don't see it that way.
GARY TUCHMAN: This is kind of blunt but I'm curious. Do you like girls now?
O'DONNELL: I love my wife. I am attracted to my wife. We've been married for nine years.
GARY TUCHMAN: Are any feelings towards men still within you? Do you feel could come out in some ways?
O'DONNELL: Again, I don't feel that I will ever be as though I never was. You know, certainly I'm human. I could be tempted by a homosexual thought. I could find myself-
GARY TUCHMAN: That doesn't go away with you?
O'DONNELL: It hasn't gone away 100% with me.
GARY TUCHMAN: Still, Chambers, another self-described ex-gays, like Mike Haley, say they would never go back.
MIKE HALEY, EX-GAY: The thought of forfeiting my wife and my children, I wouldn't have the blessings that I have in my life now.
GARY TUCHMAN: But Shawn O'Donnell doesn't buy any of it. We talk to people who tell us they are heterosexual. They love their wife. They find their wife sexually attractive. And they have been "cured."
O'DONNELL: Right.
GARY TUCHMAN: You don't believe that?
O'DONNELL: No. Not one bit. Not one bit.
GARY TUCHMAN: Do you think programs like Exodus can work for some people?
O'DONNELL: No.
GARY TUCHMAN: Shawn back in Elgin, Illinois now, working as a high school science teacher. He has been living as an openly-gay man for six years. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Elgin, Illinois.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[Continues ... also see part two]
*** NOTE: Shawn O'Donnell (ex-ex-gay) is included in Part One ***
(Part Two includes a pastoral debate on homosexuality)
SEE BOTH PARTS of this two part post ... divided due to space limitations
EXCERPTS from CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees" -- Aired April 5, 2007
Special edition of "360 WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN, SEX AND SALVATION.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0704/05/acd.01.html
************************************************** *******************
EXCERPT:
COOPER: Another path hotly debated, of course, is homosexuality. It's a major issue in the Catholic Church and with many evangelicals.
But it's also dividing mainline Protestant denominations like the Episcopal Church in America, who are at odds over an openly gay bishop and same-sex unions. For years, gay and lesbian Christians have struggled for acceptance within their churches. For them, many of them, it's been a painful journey. Their faith and their sexuality are not always in sync.
Well, now, some are convinced that therapy and prayer can change that. The medical community disagrees. And the gay and lesbian community say the so-called cure is a fraud.
CNN's Gary Tuchman investigates.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): By the hundreds, they stream into this massive church in Phoenix.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Enjoy. Have a great day.
TUCHMAN: Parents, grandparents, teenagers, and young adults, all denominations, many filled with hope, others with dread -- from the pulpit, words of compassion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to show the gay and lesbian community that we love them.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCHMAN: Actually, it's more complicated than that. This is anything but a call for tolerance of homosexuality.
DR. JOSEPH NICOLOSI, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE RESEARCH AND THERAPY OF HOMOSEXUALITY: We -- as citizens, we need to articulate God's intent for human sexuality. And that's what we need to do. We're not just opposing homosexuality. We're articulating the wisdom of heterosexuality.
TUCHMAN: This gathering is called the Love Won Out conference, organized by the Christian ministry Focus on the Family. Organizers claim homosexuality is a treatable psychological disorder, that, with enough therapy and enough prayer, can be cured.
Californians Mark and Penny (ph) Vatcher are looking to cure their 16-year-old son, Brett.
BRETT VATCHER, CONFERENCE ATTENDEE: My dad found this online. So, he wanted us to drive out here from San Diego.
TUCHMAN (on camera): I mean, do you want to be here?
VATCHER: No.
(LAUGHTER)
VATCHER: Not really. I don't know. He's wicked religious. And he doesn't like that I'm gay.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): We will come back to Brett in a moment.
You should know the theory that homosexuality is a treatable disorder is flat-out rejected by the mainstream psychiatric community. And, yet, for more than a decade, Mike Haley (ph) lived as an openly- gay man, but then:
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I realized that I had fallen in love with this girl.
TUCHMAN: He says that life-changing moment, that switch to heterosexuality, came after a long and painful struggle. Today, he's married with three children.
Melissa Fryrear had a similar conversion.
MELISSA FRYREAR, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY: And I don't know what it is about red-headed men, but whew.
(LAUGHTER)
FRYREAR: Buh-boom-buh-boom-buh-boom, my heart -- my heart goes a little pitter-patter when I see those red-headed men.
TUCHMAN: She's straight now, but says she was a lesbian for 10 years.
FRYREAR: I had had dozens of relationships. I wasn't happy. I was abusing alcohol, abusing drugs. My life was just mismanaged.
TUCHMAN: At Love Won Out, self-proclaimed ex-gays like Haley (ph) and Fryrear enthusiastically regale the crowd with their personal stories.
Dr. Joseph Nicolosi is at the center of this. He's an unorthodox Catholic psychologist. He runs the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality.
NICOLOSI: Homosexuality, as we said, is a gender-identity problem.
TUCHMAN: Nicolosi concludes boys can become gay if they don't get enough attention from their fathers or if they were abused as children.
NICOLOSI: The guy with a homosexual problem does not trust men. When he begins to trust men, his homosexuality disappears.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Appropriate parental reaction requires good judgment.
TUCHMAN: As for 16-year-old Brett and his parents, the morning session convinced the father that Brett was not born gay.
MARK VATCHER, CONFERENCE ATTENDEE: ... circumstances in his life that caused him to get to this point.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Like what?
M. VATCHER: Maybe -- maybe I wasn't a good dad, or maybe, you know, somebody abused him along the way. Who knows what happened?
TUCHMAN: Did anybody abuse you?
B. VATCHER: No.
(LAUGHTER)
TUCHMAN: Was he a good dad?
B. VATCHER: Yes.
M. VATCHER: Oh, yes.
(LAUGHTER)
B. VATCHER: I just want to say yes.
(LAUGHTER)
M. VATCHER: Uh-huh.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Brett, for his part, does not agree with Nicolosi's lecture.
NICOLOSI: And, indeed, it appears that these children are normal. They're particularly intelligent. They're very astute. They're very sociable. They're charming. They're very verbal and sensitive.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Does this have a chance of succeeding with you?
B. VATCHER: No. Don't tell my parents.
(LAUGHTER)
B. VATCHER: No.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Joseph Nicolosi often accuses the media of distorting his research. He was reluctant to speak with us.
(on camera): We were hoping we can talk to you when it's over.
NICOLOSI: Yes. OK. Well, I don't think so.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Eventually, he did agree to go on camera, but:
(on camera): You're categorically saying that, if a father and son have a normal relationship, that child will not be gay?
NICOLOSI: Yes.
TUCHMAN: That's a pretty strong statement, right?
NICOLOSI: You want to debate? Do you want an answer or you want to debate?
TUCHMAN: Well...
NICOLOSI: I gave you an answer.
TUCHMAN: Yes.
So, there are some stereotypes you talk about, how, you know, if a child's effeminate, if he's creative, he's artistic, those are things to look out for. Is that fair to say?
NICOLOSI: Goodbye. You're confusing effeminacy with artistic. I didn't say artistic.
Here.
TUCHMAN: Hey, Doctor?
(voice-over): For the record, the word "artistic" is right here in the Love Won Out literature.
As for Mike Haley (ph), the recent convert to heterosexuality:
(on camera): Any homosexual who wants to, do you think they can become heterosexual? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, every single person that wants to leave homosexuality can do it.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): But how? Is there really a treatment for homosexuality? Or is the so-called cure just another path to pain?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Up next: some answers to those questions. And we will see how this controversial Christian therapy has impacted the lives of some who have tried it.
Also tonight: porn addiction.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The stats don't lie, that Christians are consuming pornography. I have women, men, children, pastors. I mean, a huge amount of pastors admitted to struggling with pornography.
COOPER (voice-over): And he's trying to heal them, he says with God's grace. Tonight, meet the man who started the number-one Christian porn site. But it's not what you think.
Plus: sermons on sex.
MATT KELLER, PASTOR, NEXT LEVEL CHURCH: God created sex. Why not at least tell people what he has to say about it?
COOPER: A church goes where few others have gone, between the sheets, when "What Is a Christian?: Sex and Salvation" continues.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL EDWARD EGAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: He taught us and all who would listen that our God is our father. He taught us that we are to love that God with all our hearts, minds and souls. And he added, we are to love our neighbor as ourselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Welcome back to "What Is a Christian?: Sex and Salvation."
We're looking at how some Christians are trying to turn gay people straight through years of intensive prayer and therapy. It's a controversial tactic. The medical community says it doesn't work. But some claim they have been cured. And others say they have gone through pure hell.
Once again, here's CNN's Gary Tuchman. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Men, women looking for a way to exorcise homosexuality here at a gathering in Phoenix called Love Won Out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There will be people there that are just, you know, searching for more information.
TUCHMAN: Christian ministries offer referrals to various treatment programs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have a good day now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will. I am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
TUCHMAN: With more than 120 local branches in North America, Exodus International calls itself the world's largest ex-gay referral service.
ALAN CHAMBERS, PRESIDENT, EXODUS INTERNATIONAL: You have got to have healthy expectations.
TUCHMAN: Exodus president Alan Chambers says his own journey from homosexuality to heterosexuality followed a long and difficult path.
(on camera): How did you do it?
CHAMBERS: Well, it's not like a light switch. I didn't -- I didn't flip it on and flip it off. It was years of work.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Not everyone has had the same result.
(on camera): Shawn, when did you realize you were gay?
SHAWN O'DONNELL, UNDERWENT EX-GAY THERAPY: At the age of 6, I realized I was different from other boys. And it wasn't until later on that I actually associated the word gay with that. I was 10.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Growing up gay in Elgin, Illinois, wasn't easy for Shawn O'Donnell. His Catholic parents were loving. But the kids at school were merciless.
O'DONNELL: I had very low self-esteem, hated myself.
TUCHMAN: It got worse when, at age 10, Shawn was born-again and joined an evangelical church.
(on camera): How important was religion in your life at that time?
O'DONNELL: Extremely important. It was the top of my list. I went to church four or five times a week. I mean, I was always at church. I was so involved in it, missions trips, Bible studies, prayer groups.
TUCHMAN: And, if you're gay, you believe you're going to hell?
O'DONNELL: Right.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): It was too much for the boy. He started cutting himself. He attempted suicide. And, finally, at 18, he came out to his pastor.
(on camera): Did you feel like he was angry at you?
O'DONNELL: No. No. He was very compassionate, with the understanding that I needed help.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Shawn's pastor referred him to therapy at a local ex-gay organization.
O'DONNELL: I had to deal with my father issues. And I had to deal with my mother issues. And I had to deal with -- you know, I was never molested. So, that wasn't an issue. But that also was an issue that they brought up. If I was, that could have pushed me to be gay.
TUCHMAN: At times, Shawn says he felt like he was making the transition from homosexuality to heterosexuality.
O'DONNELL: Well, I thought I would go a couple days without being attracted to other men. But, then -- you know, then I would have a sexual slip-up. So, then, I thought, wow, you know, I'm failing again.
TUCHMAN: Five years into therapy, Shawn hit another low point and again tried to kill himself. Desperate, he moved to California, and joined a live-in program for gay men trying to become straight.
O'DONNELL: Very controlling environment. We went to work. We -- after we got home, we had dinner together. We didn't go places alone, other than to work and back. We were always in groups of two or three. Sundays, we went to church together. And we had curfews.
TUCHMAN: Shawn says he was totally committed to the program.
O'DONNELL: God, if anybody tried to do this, I tried. I -- I did pray so many hours and sweat so many tears.
And, you know, the -- the picture I get is Jesus at the Garden of Gethsemane, when he sweat blood. You know, if I could have sweat blood, I would have.
My first year into it, I just -- I felt great. I graduated through the first year. They had a graduation ceremony. I thought, oh, you know, I'm going to make it. This is all that I needed. Then, I had a slip with one of the guys in the house.
TUCHMAN: The next day, Shawn drove into San Francisco and had a one-night stand with a man.
O'DONNELL: You know what? That was it. I was done. I had given it the good old college try. I decided I was going to come out again.
TUCHMAN: This is what the accomplished psychological community says about homosexuality.
CLINTON ANDERSON, AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION: There is no conclusive research that explains why people become gay or why they become straight, for that matter.
GARY TUCHMAN: Dr. Clinton Anderson handles gay and lesbian issues for the American Psychological Association. The APA categorically rejects theories about causes for homosexuality.
ANDERSON: Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. And does not in any sense need to be treated or need to be cured.
GARY TUCHMAN: But many of the people struggling with their sexuality here in phoenix don't see it that way.
GARY TUCHMAN: This is kind of blunt but I'm curious. Do you like girls now?
O'DONNELL: I love my wife. I am attracted to my wife. We've been married for nine years.
GARY TUCHMAN: Are any feelings towards men still within you? Do you feel could come out in some ways?
O'DONNELL: Again, I don't feel that I will ever be as though I never was. You know, certainly I'm human. I could be tempted by a homosexual thought. I could find myself-
GARY TUCHMAN: That doesn't go away with you?
O'DONNELL: It hasn't gone away 100% with me.
GARY TUCHMAN: Still, Chambers, another self-described ex-gays, like Mike Haley, say they would never go back.
MIKE HALEY, EX-GAY: The thought of forfeiting my wife and my children, I wouldn't have the blessings that I have in my life now.
GARY TUCHMAN: But Shawn O'Donnell doesn't buy any of it. We talk to people who tell us they are heterosexual. They love their wife. They find their wife sexually attractive. And they have been "cured."
O'DONNELL: Right.
GARY TUCHMAN: You don't believe that?
O'DONNELL: No. Not one bit. Not one bit.
GARY TUCHMAN: Do you think programs like Exodus can work for some people?
O'DONNELL: No.
GARY TUCHMAN: Shawn back in Elgin, Illinois now, working as a high school science teacher. He has been living as an openly-gay man for six years. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Elgin, Illinois.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[Continues ... also see part two]