"Reconciling" Faith and Sexuality

[squirt07]

Hey guys, I have a question since I'm dealing with things. For those who call themselves Christians, would you mind sharing stories of how you "reconciled" (for lack of a better word) your faith with your sexuality? I'm trying to process a good amount of things while still being in school and could use some support.

[Bearnabas]

Thanks, Squirt, for your post. I'm with you. I'm still in process myself, but here's what I've done so far:

I've read a lot of books and websites. I'm 38, a college writing professor, and about 4 years old as a gay man. I had a big struggle with the whole "does God still allow me to be sexual or to have sexual feelings and be gay" issue. As a Southern Baptist, I had a lot of biased and twisted interpretations of scripture in my head--which I thought were valid. But as a writing professor I always told my students to read the other side. In fact, if they didn't include an "opposing viewpoint" in their papers for the first year writing course, I would give them a C. But here I was only believing one side of things because I feared hearing another side....for fear that I had been taught wrongly, and by way of association, that Christ or the Bible might be in "error."

I pushed myself to read websites first--because I wanted to hear real gay christians talk. I wanted to hear their stories--their testimonies--because Baptists put a high value on a testimony. And the more I read, the more I was convinced that I could be both gay and Christian. I didn't have Soulforce at first...I had sites I found when I googled "gay christianity" and I don't know them off the top of my head right now, but others do...

Then I went to books: What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality by Daniel Helminiak was the best I found...though I read many before him. He's not gay, but he makes a clear case using scripture that not only has the bible nothing to really say about today's gays and lesbians, but actually has much to say about loving everyone, about accepting everyone's sexuality--that I was more than convinced that God and me were still okay with each other--that I hadn't been cast out of his love. Took me a year to read through and decide.

However, that hasn't answered all the questions I have yet about gay sexuality and christianity.... I emailed some prominent gay christian activists about the issues of promiscuity and monogamy--basically sex before marriage and gays. Their answer led me to believe that there's a lot more leniency on our side sexually, it seems (and please correct me if I'm wrong), because we don't have "marriage" supported by our country as much as straights do. Since there is no real foundation for "marriage" around us--neither through our government or our churches--it's hard for us to think, I'm assuming, in terms of "marriage"--"monogamy" and "chastity". In fact, since there is no safe place for gay dating in public, it makes regular dating really, really difficult. I now surf gay chat sites for trying to find a partner--not the best sites, I know, but ones I think that will keep me protected, since I can't just ask a man on the street I find attractive.

I know there are many christians who are gay who do believe in the concepts of marriage, chastity, monogamy, and I'm one of them, but it's hard to hold to them when I see some prominent gay christian activists still say sexual contact outside of marriage may be okay....

I don't want to hijack this good post by Squirt07, but I think it's on the same idea--gays and sexuality and reconciling them. I have reconciled that God still loves me, but I haven't reconciled what to do with my sexuality now that it's okay....

Can anyone clarify what the "rules" are?

[Pablo Rafael]

Hi Squirt,

There was a thread about this topic awhile back. It might have some comments you would like to look at. If I were more technologically adept, I would direct you to it.

Being rather conservative in my religious beliefs one might think that I would have a hard time reconciling Christianity with being gay. However, I believe strongly that the Bible is the word of God and it needs to be the foundation and source of my beliefs.

After reading Stranger at the Gate I started to question my long held views on homosexuality. I decided to look at the Bible references and read some other Biblically-based books on the subject. After studying the Biblical material regarding the subject, I became convinced that God is not opposed to same-sex relationships. I can't find any evidence in the Bible to support the teaching that gay relationships are immoral.

After years of praying that God would change me and rid me of my "evil" desires, I changed my prayer to asking God to open my heart to what he had to tell me. I am convinced that being gay is part of God's plan for my life.

I believe that gay Christians are also called to live lives that are pleasing to God. All people, gay or straight, need to deal with others in love and their relationships need to be based on love.

The best book I have read on the subject is one that u-dog recommended A Time to Embrace by William Stacey Johnson. If you haven't read it and have time (I remember being a student that I didn't have a lot of time for non-required reading.) I would highly recommend it. There is a thread discussing that book also somewhere.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[JudB]

The Daniel Helminiak is a good resource to start with. I have the book and it is still a solid source I go to when I need clarification.

With discussion and activism moving toward gay marriage, monogamous relationship may now be something gay people aspire to more than they have in the past. It is hard to aspire to something that you know in your heart is totally unreachable.

I think we each have to personally decide what is best for us and the people we love when it comes to relationship, dating and sexual encounters. We can't just fall back on the cultural norm when deciding what we want our lives to be like.

If I want to be celibate if not in a committed relationship because I think that is best for me, I have to do just that and let what every body else do what they think is best for them.

And I might add, straight men (and some women) are just as sexually driven and might choose to be promiscuous if given the opportunity. Do a reality check and see what's really going on with young straight people. They are not that different. This is not a judgement, just an observation.

We each have to make the journey our own and decide what is best for ourselves.

[Pablo Rafael]

Their answer led me to believe that there's a lot more leniency on our side sexually, it seems (and please correct me if I'm wrong), because we don't have "marriage" supported by our country as much as straights do.

Bearnabas,

I see that you posted while I was writing and I just had to make a few comments. I think you are right. There is more leniency on the LGBT side when it comes to sexual issues. (Although I see a lot of straight people who believe in monogamous, lifelong relationships but don't practice it in the slightest.)

Basically I think that situation is caused a lot by the conservative Christian churches. I think that many if not most, gay, conservative Christians are in the closet and are not the people that anyone sees. Those with more liberal views are more 'out".

Also since conservative Christianity has made it almost impossible for gays to marry, then what choices are left for gays. We can either be celibate, which not everyone is called by God to be, or we can have sex outside of marriage. Since so many people regard gays as immoral and degenerate, what incentive is there to "follow the rules"?

I think it is critical that our church and culture recognize and celebrate gay individuals and their gay marriages. We should be welcome members of society. Society and the church as a whole needs to embrace monogamous, committed, loving, same-sex relationships.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[TigerXero]

Talking about having sex outside of marriage, that begs to question how does one define a marriage. In a society where no legal recognition of a marriage between members of the same sex exists, how do we define our marriages, or as I'd like to say, covenent relationships, and when is it okay to become sexual active.

I assume when we say marriage we mean the public ceremony, but is this what the Bible is referring to, or rather, is the Bible talking about a lifelong commitment between two persons before God?

In this light, the issue of "when is sex okay," at least from my point, becomes answerable.

***Question, was the purpose for marriage in the Bible to help better serve God? If so, then shouldn't Christians oppose non-Christians from marrying, or did I just completely make up that thought.

QUOTE: I see that you posted while I was writing and I just had to make a few comments. I think you are right. There is more leniency on the LGBT side when it comes to sexual issues. (Although I see a lot of straight people who believe in monogamous, lifelong relationships but don't practice it in the slightest.)

I'd have to agree with this statement. Is it because we, as LGBT individuals who have broken the boundaries and standards that cage us, seem to now disregard or question all the rules we're been indoctinated with? Or is it because that's the image we're being fed by the media of what the gay community is (which is apparently true, although I'd like to think this doesn't represent the majority of LGBT peoples, but I have no idea if that's true)? Could it even be because when you pair up two guys it's harder to stay abstinent until the unclear "marriage" commitment (I realize that doesn't address the girls)? Just some thoughts.

[TigerXero]

And as for reconciling my faith and sexuality, I dropped my conservatives beliefs that I had never thought on and come to hold a progressive view of the Bible.

[squirt07]

Talking about having sex outside of marriage, that begs to question how does one define a marriage. In a society where no legal recognition of a marriage between members of the same sex exists, how do we define our marriages, or as I'd like to say, covenent relationships, and when is it okay to become sexual active. I assume when we say marriage we mean the public ceremony, but is this what the Bible is referring to, or rather, is the Bible talking about a lifelong commitment between two persons before God? In this light, the issue of "when is sex okay," at least from my point, becomes answerable.

I find it interesting that you bring up defining marriage because the paper I am currently working on is about just that...

[scott snedeker]

Acceptance and affirmation of your own NATURE is the foundation of Spirituality.

I too feared Christ and Christianity. But later when I realized that judgemental "Christians" were really mostly people with "small minds driven by fear" (a previous thread by me) I was able to trivialize their hate.

I experienced a trauma at age six that lead me to believe Christ was going to make me die of my congenital heart disease. Sounds silly now but to a young child it created a terror of christianity that I came to realize it's origin only in the last year!

I'm one of the Pagans by the way. My greatest spiritual ideal is Universal and Unconditional love of self and others. Which also seems to me to be Christ's most genuine message. I belive him to be merely human but a Genius non-the-less of universal and uncondtional love. Christ did not say You are loved but I only distastefully tolerate your nature! That comes from homophobes who are being self-righteous.

Churches sometimes use the attractive power of this ideal as bait so they can then use it to dehumanize gay people for gratification as a compensation for a their own sense of personal inadequacy. The result is often no less devastating than Childhood sexual rape. They see themselves as entitled to this gratification and are now violently objecting it being taken away from them by "The gay agenda"

I consider love without acceptance to be spiritual poison. "I love you but you are dirty" = rape of your self-esteem! Don't accept it! no matter how strongly you are tempted! Unconditional an love without any caveats about your nature is worth waiting for!

I get a sense of unconditional love of my self and others from my lovers, My Reiki Circle, and from Abraham's Art of Allowing (A discipline of emotionally sensitive thought focus) This my spirituality



Here I have found affirmation......and offer it in return.

There is great love here for you. We are complete through our love for one another.

[Bearnabas]

Okay, I think previous posts have brought the right question to the forefront for me, at least.

I'd love to wait until I have one relationship that I deemed longterm, lasting, even a covenant.... actually, I guess, I have....I just haven't been sexually active--mostly because I didn't know I was gay, and two, because I never felt drawn to the "right woman." Now, though, I am drawn to many men and want to wait until I feel emotionally connected to a person, a person I'm going to try out a lonterm relationship with, not just someone I meet online....

For 38 years I knew the hard line in the sand had been drawn at sex--climax, that is---(heck, for us young baptists, it was "heavy petting")---but what's my line now? Where do I adjust my thinking? Is Christ and God all right with sexual expression in whatever way we express it--with love that is---or do the same rules apply to us as they do straights? Is morality defined by the same conditions?

[Zerbie]

For 38 years I knew the hard line in the sand had been drawn at sex--climax, that is---(heck, for us young baptists, it was "heavy petting")---but what's my line now? Where do I adjust my thinking? Is Christ and God all right with sexual expression in whatever way we express it--with love that is---or do the same rules apply to us as they do straights? Is morality defined by the same conditions?

Bet on it - you are likely to get many very different answers (especially if you ask this of a more "general" population than the SF forum.) That is where your own discernment comes into play.

Take the gay/straight issue off the table and shave the question down to its basics. Basics - not exteriors. By your best understanding/application of your value system: In what circumstances would sexual expression/culmination be appropriate?

You need to rely on your own discernment. The skills and patience you used in ciphering out your own coming-out experience are in place from that experience, so use them to determine what is right for you in accordance with your value system.

((Bearnabas))
((Squirt))
:love: :love: :love: :love:

[Daniel]

How did I reconcile the matter of faith and sexuality? Interesting question.

Well. First of all, you should know that while I grew up a Pentacostal Christian and do not presently consider myself a Christian- at least not in the way modern evangelicals define being a Christian- I do, however- consider myself a follower of the teachings of Christ. That said, I've been known to joke that I am a closet Buddhist. Are you confused yet? Well. It's really not that complicated. Suffice it to say, I see the world of faith and spirituality very differently than I did before I came out of the closet. What's changed? Me.

I can remember the moment when I felt, with full force, these words: "You are gay!"

A girlfriend who I had dated in college showed up at my parents house (she was a friend of my sister) after I graduated, and I knew in my heart that nothing was going to work between us, or between myself and any other woman. It was like trying to put two positive magnets together- the closer I got the more repelled I felt. I only went down that garden path a few steps, but that was enough for me. I couldn't go further.

That night, while everyone was asleep, I got out of bed and walked the streets, so as not to wake anyone up, crying and sobbing to God: "Please help me- Oh God please help me!" Over and over and over. And after a few hours, I wore myself out and a calm came over me. And I felt that something new and good was ahead of me. I didn't know exactly what that meant, or what I was going to do, but I felt that if I hung in there and trusted my feelings, I would find my way.

Slowly, ever so slowly, I started reading. It was hard for me to go into a bookstore, go to the bookshelf where the Gay and Lesbian section was, and take a book off the shelf and open it up. I was terrified. Silverstein's book, The Joy of Gay Sex, was new at the time, and holding it in my hand made me tremble all over. I was just a wreck with all the unexamined thoughts in my head.

I really started unraveling things biblically after I read John Boswell's tome, Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1980), which I still consider a great book. It's hard slogging for many people, but it is worth it. This book opened my eyes, not simply for the conclusions that Boswell came to, but for the simple fact that it introduced me to the idea that one could ask questions- which is something conservatives resist mightily- and something I was taught I should not do.

Good boys didn't do that. God boys did as they were told to do without question.

"Trust and obey- For there's no other way- To be happy in Jesus..."

But I rebelled and let myself have a boyfriend. I say with no shame that my first boyfriend was the first person to take a liking to me. He wasn't a bad person thank God, but I was hardly together enough as a person to make that relationship work. It lasted 4 years. I did a hell of a lot of reading during those years. And I started meditating. I also saw a therapist.

Meditation helped my more than anything else. I 'got' that I was Ok as I was. It was a direct experience, though it didn't happen in one moment. Each time I would get all bent out of shape, I would sit. And the more I sat, the more I realized that I was made out of Love itself and not separate from it. And that to love another man was to partake of that Love. But to get to this 'place', I had to get past what one normally thinks of as thinking- ie the discursive mind. What the Buddhists call Monkey Mind.

[dsdrane]

For 38 years I knew the hard line in the sand had been drawn at sex--climax, that is---(heck, for us young baptists, it was "heavy petting")---but what's my line now? Where do I adjust my thinking? Is Christ and God all right with sexual expression in whatever way we express it--with love that is---or do the same rules apply to us as they do straights? Is morality defined by the same conditions?

I grew up with a nominally liberal, mainline Protestant view of things, so forgive me if this is a stupid or naive question, but:

what is all this crazy "rules" talk?

Bearnabas, the thread to which Pablo refers [he's my secret love, by the way] is this: http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2509

I started it not so long ago, because I was asking some of the same questions you are...but for wildly different reasons. The thread waded into some silliness [which we need more of, people], but there were some serious responses. I did find it interesting, though, that so few people responded. Perhaps it touched a nerve?

Zerbie, as always, I think has wise advice. Don't separate gay from straight sex in terms of what your personal "rules" are. If you meet someone, you believe it is a safe situation with mutual respect, and you feel like gettin' busy, by all means get down with your bad self.

And leave behind this guilt thing. Lordy, you're Baptist, not Jewish (not that that's a bad thing ;) )

I kid...because I care.

Also, you may want to check out GCN. They have a very wide range of opinions on all this, many of which I do not like or advocate...but I'm not you. I mention it only in terms of full disclosure.

Ultimately, from my point of view, God gave you a body and mind with which to love. Sex is certainly not the end-all, be-all, but it is a gift from God, and it would be a shame to waste it.

So...go get 'em, Tiger!

:love: :cookie:

[u-dog]

Bearnabas, the thread to which Pablo refers [he's my secret love, by the way] is this: http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2509

And my Post to this thread (#11) was particularly brilliant! you should read it :cool: and keep your doggon imagination off Pablo! He is my fantasy-boyfriend! Tall, handsome, youthful, theologically astute, those slate blue eyes, the heavy black eyebrows, his long sinewy... sigh.



Ultimately, from my point of view, God gave you a body and mind with which to love. Sex is certainly not the end-all, be-all, but it is a gift from God, and it would be a shame to waste it.

So...go get 'em, Tiger!

Amen and Amen!

[Diane Vera]

I really started unraveling things biblically after I read John Boswell's tome, Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1980), which I still consider a great book. It's hard slogging for many people, but it is worth it. This book opened my eyes, not simply for the conclusions that Boswell came to, but for the simple fact that it introduced me to the idea that one could ask questions- which is something conservatives resist mightily- and something I was taught I should not do.

Good boys didn't do that. God boys did as they were told to do without question.

"Trust and obey- For there's no other way- To be happy in Jesus..."

To avoid derailing this thread, I've replied in the separate thread Why is religion-based homophobia so tenacious? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2697).

[ladyinred]

"After years of praying that God would change me and rid me of my "evil" desires, I changed my prayer to asking God to open my heart to what he had to tell me."

"I am convinced that being gay is part of God's plan for my life. "


I have done the same thing ,pray and ask God, hey what is the truth? That may not be the same for everyone.. But I cannot invalidate other people's personal and real experiences.

I remember reading on one website that I would go to and the guy is actually right on the ball on many things to my way of thinking ,but a lesbian wrote to him and told him of her being down on herself for being a lesbian , but through praying , she said she had a wonderful feeling and revelation that God accepted her as she was. Well guess who invalidated it and shot that all to hell? To her it was a unique and profound spiritual experience and this is what I mean when I say I cannot invalidate other people's personal relationship with Christ and God and what uniquely suits them.. I've seen this done too many times to people and some are close frinds of mine.

[Bearnabas]

Ladyinred,

I have seen that happen too. Often I think God speaks to us in unique ways...with words for our life. I sometimes try to tell others about these wonderful words and affirmations from God. Unfortunately, I feel stupid, because their reaction doesn't match my own. Sometimes, they try to argue me out of what I know God has told me....sometimes I argue it out of myself as I see their reaction...knowing I must sound stupid....

I keep thinking of that verse after Christ is born, said about Mary, "And she pondered these things in her heart..." It doesn't say she told anyone...and I'm beginning to think that's the right avenue... either not sharing, or as you've suggested, not critiquing.... because who would have believed Mary. I'm sure her son was telling her lots of things.... and I can see her in front of counselor now...

"Yes, he's the savior of the world...an angel told me, and my son confirmed it."

Counselor: "And how old is your son?"

Mary: "He's three. What a joy!"

Counselor: "And he confirmed that he was going to be a savior how?"

Mary: "He brought this bird back to life....my husband had hit it with a two by four...but Jesus stuck out his hand and brought it back to life. We were amazed. He looked at us and I swear to you he said this: "Just wait till I grow up. You ain't seen nothing yet.""

Counselor: (after a pause) Have you ever considered psychotherapy?

Mary: (to herself) Perhaps I should have pondered these things in my heart....

_________

Sorry, couldn't resist. It's early in the morning....I'm creative. But I think your points are valid. We shouldn't step on anyone's revelation....

God bless, Ladyinred.

[Pablo Rafael]

Bearnabas, the thread to which Pablo refers [he's my secret love, by the way] is this: http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2509


David, You know the whole "secret" thing flies out the window when you make comments like that in a public forum. We'll discuss this when I get home! And why do I now see your picture up by your name? With your good looks and stunning intellect, and my charm and irresistability, guys will be chasing us down all over cyberspace. :cool:

And my Post to this thread (#11) was particularly brilliant! you should read it and keep your doggon imagination off Pablo! He is my fantasy-boyfriend! Tall, handsome, youthful, theologically astute, those slate blue eyes, the heavy black eyebrows, his long sinewy... sigh.


And the awesome thing is, that despite all of my obviously fantastic qualities, I still manage to be so humble. :D

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Allyson]

Y'all have basically written my story! Of course, I'm not gay, I'm trans. (Um, wait...I'm a trans-woman with a woman as the love of my life...so I guess I am gay...um... I'm gonna need more coffee before I go too much deeper into that one.)

Anyway, embracing intellectually and spiritually a non-heterocentric understanding of eros was crucial to my self-acceptance as a trans-woman. So here goes...my story in your words:

As a Southern Baptist, I had a lot of biased and twisted interpretations of scripture in my head--which I thought were valid. But as a writing professor I always told my students to read the other side.

Been there, done that.

...I believe strongly that the Bible is the word of God and it needs to be the foundation and source of my beliefs.

[...]

After years of praying that God would change me and rid me of my "evil" desires, I changed my prayer to asking God to open my heart to what he had to tell me.

Funny what happened when I started asking the right question... :)

And as for reconciling my faith and sexuality, I dropped my conservatives beliefs that I had never thought on and come to hold a progressive view of the Bible.

As my studies changed the way I read and understand Scripture, a whole different set of ideas started to come into focus. Ideas like "In Christ, there is no male or female, but all are one," and "In the image of God he created them [both]."

I really started unraveling things biblically after I read John Boswell's tome, Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1980), which I still consider a great book. It's hard slogging for many people, but it is worth it.

This book is spectacular and gave me lots to think about.

And leave behind this guilt thing. Lordy, you're Baptist, not Jewish (not that that's a bad thing ;) )

I kid...because I care.


...and that was about the last step for me. Realizing that God made me trans, and thinks I'm beautiful that way, gave me a joy I'd never even imagined existed.