On sexual behavior

[ladyinred]

http://www.iamachristiantoo.org/?p=236 an excerpt:

This does not mean a blanket acceptance of any and all gay behavior. Sin for gays, as it is for me, is that which separates them from God and from others. Promiscuity, abuse, misogyny or any other cruelty committed under the guise of sex is as much a sin for gays as for straights. This is not an “anything goes” morality. Polygamy, bestiality and pederasty, unlike homosexual monogamy, all have victims and separate us from God and others.
My comments:
However I disagree with one thing in this statement equating homosexuality with pederasty, bestiality and pologamy.. I've done my research and have also talked to many people as well. Bestiality ,polygamy,pederasty is no way to be linked to the Homosexual orientation. (I also had a straight friend who was dealing with sexual addiction and wanted me to read a book about it)

Why? Because I've read up on the subject and I will tell you that there are heterosexuals that practice the same things .

Dating under-aged girls, we know of polygamy in the old testament and in other cultures, and bestiality.. you hear about the stories of straight college students going down to Mexico who watch vulgar sexual acts in some of the bars down there and even who practice it.. (I've read up on it and have had people tell me about them.)

There are porno websites all over the place that promote bestiality and incest and I am not talking Gay porno websites either ( Not to say that there aren't those that do the same, but my point is to prove that this is not a link to homosexual orientation)

I am going to just state this these types of behaviors are not about sexual orientation , either heterosexual or homosexual... There are those in both orientations who can exhibit aberrational sexual behavior. So it would be more accurate to say that those who practice such things have a personality disorder rather than to attribute it to the sexual orientation of the person.

[ladyinred]

Things James Dobson and Paul Cameron will never tell you:

http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html#anchor4

http://www.protectkids.com/effects/resources.htm

http://www.1wayout.org/pages/internet-pornography-statistics.aspx#psiwc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_child_sexual_abuse_as_a_social_problem
the above is a history of social norms established by earlier Christianity..historically it was viewed as normal and condoned by the church that marrying a young girl as young as 12 was considered ok. Here is another one:http://www.internationalorder.org/scandal_response.html

[Diane Vera]

Polygamy, bestiality and pederasty, unlike homosexual monogamy, all have victims ....

[...]

Dating under-aged girls, we know of polygamy in the old testament and in other cultures, and bestiality ....

The word "polygamy" simply means "multiple marriages." Polygamy and "dating underage girls" are two distinct issues, having in common only that fact that, historically, both have been accepted (at least to some extent) in most traditional cultures, and both are also accepted and even encouraged by the more traditionalist Mormon sects. They don't always go together. For example, Western culture has upheld the ideal of monogamy for millenia; yet, even in the West until the past century or so, it was not at all unheard of for girls to get married in their mid-teens or even their early teens.

Compared to nearly all older cultures, modern Western culture has very unusual ideas as to how long childhood is supposed to last. In nearly all human cultures, including the West until recently, young people took on adult responsibilities in general (not just sex and marriage) much earlier than they do in the modern West. Even here in the contemporary U.S.A., the age of sexual consent varies quite a bit from state to state.

How high should the age of sexual consent be? I don't have a strong opinion on this matter; I can see arguments on various different sides of this issue. But, at the very least, it does seem to me that a 19-year-old having sex with a 17-year-old should not be treated quite the same as a 50-year-old having sex with a 5-year-old. People in the former category should not be branded for life as "sex offenders."

As for polygamy, I'll have more to say about that in another message, later.

[Diane Vera]

As for polygamy: You say that polygamy has "victims." That depends on the social context.

Regarding polygamy in most traditional cultures, one should keep in mind the following:


In most traditional societies, the family is the primary economic unit, to a much greater degree than in the midern Western world. In particular, people needed to have children to support them in their old age.

In many times and places, there has been a very high female-to-male ratio, due to men getting killed in war. Hence polygamy was the only way that many women could get married and have children.

Traditionally, most cultures did not believe in what is commonly thought of in the modern West as "romantic love." Marriage was primarily a practical arrangement.


In the modern West, there is a small subculture devoted to polyamory (multiple loving relationships). Obviously it's not for everyone. But some people can make it work.

[ladyinred]

Diane that pologamy has it's victims was part of the article and not my statement, when I was thinking of pologamy I guess I was thinking more along the biblical account of things, where Solomon had 1000 wives and Concubines,(Which is why I wondered why a man would need that many) And you are right that pologamy was practiced in different cultures for the above reasons you stated.
I guess the point I was trying to present with this article is that I feel that GLBT people have been unfairly portrayed by people like Dobson and Paul Cameron as deviants, and have been stigmatized and I just wanted to present a more balanced view.

I'm not saying that GLBT people don't have personal issues and struggles but it seems the way that people like Dobson would portray it is that heterosexuals don't have their share . But this also presents a human side to things in knowing that people aren't perfect and that in fact, many heterosexual people are struggling with their own problems and temptations as well.

However I was reading on the website "Advocates for youth" about many of the issues that confront GLBT and heterosexuals and they presented the problems of both the GLBT and heterosexual community in a much more compassionate way, and instead of trying to be a divider they are willing to work together to deal with these problems and challenges ,and help eliminate fear and prejudice and stigma aimed at GLBT people.
I was very much impressed with their website in many ways.

My problem is that GLBT people have been thrown in with the worst of human behavior and lumped together with bestiality and pedophilia and this has painted a pretty distorted view of GLBT people. As a result I feel like this engenders more fear and violence toward GLBT people. And as it is too many are suffering in environments that are hostile and possibly dangerous for them. I remember that in other postings that there was a discussion on GLBT kids being kicked out to the street in disproportionately larger numbers than straigt youth.

Dobson and Cameron should not be treated with kid gloves or the "turn the other cheek mentality.".The damage they are doing and harm they are causing is unconscionable. And on top of that, their ideals of heterosexual manhood and womenhood are pretty boxed in , stereotypical and rigid and I think that is not helping heterosexuals either.
I
read somewhere that Dobson expressed dismay in a male child being interested in things such as the arts or other intellectual pursuits (I'll have to find that article ) And he actually said such a child needs psychological help. What if a male child is interested in other endeavors such as music or writing poetry? Do they need psychological help?

He seems to endorse the idea that men need to be aggressive and unfeeling and insensitive..( And stupid I guess)Would you say boys are sissies if they cry? When My dad pulled that on me with my son, I let him know he crossed the line and told him about it. Not that my dad was any shining example of manhood himself. But I'm not going to cage my son in like that.. At least he could show his feelings. And what about men being able to express affection? I don't think,"Hey dude" does that. I will say my ex husband was never afraid or ashamed to show affection toward my son and does hug and kiss him, and when he was a baby, he would help change his diapers and bathed him.

According to Dobson or Cameron , would he be considered a pedophile too?

[Diane Vera]

My problem is that GLBT people have been thrown in with the worst of human behavior and lumped together with bestiality and pedophilia and this has painted a pretty distorted view of GLBT people. As a result I feel like this engenders more fear and violence toward GLBT people. And as it is too many are suffering in environments that are hostile and possibly dangerous for them. I remember that in other postings that there was a discussion on GLBT kids being kicked out to the street in disproportionately larger numbers than straigt youth.

Dobson and Cameron should not be treated with kid gloves or the "turn the other cheek mentality.".The damage they are doing and harm they are causing is unconscionable.

Indeed. It's very important to expose their lies.

And on top of that, their ideals of heterosexual manhood and womenhood are pretty boxed in , stereotypical and rigid and I think that is not helping heterosexuals either.
I
read somewhere that Dobson expressed dismay in a male child being interested in things such as the arts or other intellectual pursuits (I'll have to find that article ) And he actually said such a child needs psychological help. What if a male child is interested in other endeavors such as music or writing poetry? Do they need psychological help?

That's ridiculous! If you can dig up a good source for such a statement by Dobson, that would be very helpful.

[ladyinred]

Ok, here it is Diane.

August 2005
I'm 49.9 percent gay?!


I’m 49.9 percent gay! Well, at least according to Focus on the Family’s "Helping Boys Become Men: Is My Child Becoming Homosexual?"

Here are the site's characteristics of a homosexual boy:

1. A strong feeling that they are “different” from other boys.

I was never any good at sports (usually picked last for teams), had no interest in hunting and fishing, and read the entire World Book Encyclopedia one summer in junior high. I had no doubts I was “different.”

In the sidebar entitled How to Prevent Homosexuality, the writer also warns that they are not only “unathletic,” but, and I quote, “passive, unaggressive and uninterested in rough-and-tumble play. A number of them had traits that could be considered gifts: bright, precocious, social and relational, and artistically talented.” If these characteristics are present, parent should “seek help.”

Oh no! I got good grades and excelled in writing and art. And I still don’t do “manly” activities like hunting, fishing, or watching professional sports.

2. A tendency to cry easily, be less athletic, and dislike the roughhousing that other boys enjoy.

Okay, I can’t get through “It’s A Wonderful Life” without my head gasket leaking. And, because I was 10-20 pounds lighter than many boys my age in elementary school, I avoided “roughhousing” since I “disliked” getting beaten to a pulp. Besides, I thought rolling around on the playground with other boys was, well, “gay.”

3. A persistent preference to play female roles in make-believe play

No to that. I always fantasized I was “The Lone Ranger”. Wait a minute! He always hung around that Indian from “The Village People.” Was Kemo Sabe gay?! Let’s move right along while I try to get that image out of my head.

4. A strong preference to spend time in the company of girls and participate in their games and other pastimes.

In elementary school, since I had no interest in sports and major interest in Karen Reed, I hung around her and her friends. I still seem to relate better to women since—again—I have no interest in sports or hunting. And, if you’ve ever been to a writers’ conference, you realize that writing is a woman’s “pastime.”

5. A susceptibility to be bullied by other boys, who may tease them unmercifully and call them “queer,” “fag” and “gay”

No one said ”fag” or “gay” in the late 1950’s, so I might have been called those things in today’s culture. So, I’ll have to give myself one-half of a hypothetical point.

6. A tendency to walk, talk, dress and even "think" effeminately.

How do you “think” effeminately?! Is being able to look at something with a male’s “feminine side” considered effeminate? And is confessing to having a feminine side another characteristic?! If so, I have several articles that may make the case that I’m gay:


The New "Macho Man"

Cross-gender Communication


So, I’ll give myself one-fourth of a point.

7. A repeatedly stated desire to be—or insistence that he is—a girl

Definitely no.

Okay, let’s see that’s 49.9 points. I’m 49.9 percent gay?!

I’m so glad my parents embraced my different-ness and bought me a typewriter to express my artistic talent rather than seeking help. But most of all, I’m glad there were no seven-point tests to determine if I was a “man” or a “homosexual”!

And here’s what I find most disturbing about this list. More than one-third of all guys and many girls go through a temporary time of sexual identity confusion during adolescence.

So, how many “different” boys will be made to believe they are homosexual because their parents buy into these stifling stereotypes?! It makes me want to cry!

(c) 2005 James N. Watkins

Click here for responses

Note: Focus on the Family 404s its gay quiz! Two week's ago I questioned the accuracy and appropriateness of FOTF's seven-point quiz "Helping Boys Become Men: Is My Child Becoming Homosexual?" You'll now get the "Error 404: File Not Found" page when you click the link above for the site. Thanks



From the website:http://watkins.gospelcom.net/shorsex.htm

[Diane Vera]

From the website:http://watkins.gospelcom.net/shorsex.htm

Thanks. Here are the comments (http://www.thinkchristian.net/?p=215) on that blog entry.

[ladyinred]

Diane, I was referring to these comments:In the sidebar entitled How to Prevent Homosexuality, the writer also warns that they are not only “unathletic,” but, and I quote, “passive, unaggressive and uninterested in rough-and-tumble play. A number of them had traits that could be considered gifts: bright, precocious, social and relational, and artistically talented.” If these characteristics are present, parent should “seek help.”

[ladyinred]

I would call the above traits or characteristics positive and healthy and even admirable not things a parent should worry about or seek to get help for. As in:A number of them had traits that could be considered gifts: bright, precocious, social and relational, and artistically talented.” If these characteristics are present, parent should “seek help.” And there are many GLBT people who are athletic and there is certainly nothing wrong with that..(Nor with heterosexuals) But do you see how they try to put boys in a constricted narrowly defined role? A box?

[ladyinred]

I will say I have brothers, big guys, and they aren't bad guys but they will not express emotions,like crying. At my mother's funeral they were like stoics. And that didn't mean they didn't love her.. But they really have an inability to express those types of feelings.. Even when I hug them and I give a big rap around the waist hug with my head on the shoulder thing, they just kind of loosely hug me or pat me on the shoulder.. Ok sis now byyyyyyyyyye,LOL But they were not raised to be that way. I notice my older brother as being more comfortable with his girls now that they are older in showing affection, but when they were alot younger it was a little pat on the head..

[ladyinred]

I also didn't grow up in a family that expressed much affection. I used to not show much and had alot of hangups about it..I actually had to grow and evolve as a person. You'll see my hug my GFs too and it isn't about sex either. I guess people have their own confort zones..

[Diane Vera]

The original article by James Dobson appears to have been deleted from the "Focus on the Family" website.

The FotF website seems to have an awful lot of broken links, I've noticed.

[Diane Vera]

To the moderators: Please delete this post. I inadvertantly posted a duplicate of my previous post.

[ladyinred]

I wondered why the gay quiz would have been yanked. Possibly because of an uproar over it from heterosexuals themselves?Perhaps focus on the family had to tone down their rhetoric. But my question is why do they sexualize everything? If your son does "this" it means he is homosexual? Ok, So I am to assume if my son would like to plant flowers out in the back yard , he must be gay? Yes homosexuality is a sexual orientation, but I also feel that most GLBT people don't just equate their idenity with their sexual preference.. they have other things that matter to them as well.

[ladyinred]

Perhaps the truth is Diane, if they were more secure in their own idenity as heterosexual men they would not be so compelled to attack GLBT people for their orientation... I am glad that you bring up many valid points , some of which I didn't think of before,and that can better inform me.. I try to write as accurately and truthfully as possible( from the sources I find), but I did overlook the fact that as you said in many cases pologamy was more about survival and the lack of eligible men for women.. But again, if there is something you'd like to point out that I might be missing the point on or may not have thought about , I'm more than open to your perspective.Also there is room here for other perspectives as well. Other people might be more informed about or better educated on certain subjects than I am. I always try to learn from others as well, I will not take the stand that I know more than others, I definitely do not and may be ignorant about alot of things.( History is one of them, I may have bits and scraps of information but that is about it.LOL )

[ladyinred]

Also some people claim they are authorities on such subjects as childhood and homosexuality like Dobson, and I would say I don't believe that, I think because he sets himself up as an authority figure who seems to "know it all" alot of people give him credibility.. But what does he really know about GLBT people ?I would say very little. So -called experts have been proven wrong before, along with their "scientific " data. I personally don't believe in an exact science, because people often base their ideas and data on very subjective views and biases.

[ladyinred]

Also people like Dobson seem to be very opinionated, but as one of my friends fondly likes to quote, "Opinions are like a--holes, everyone has one." I'm not trying to offend people here , but just trying to make a point.

[ladyinred]

Also what I've noticed and this had affected me in the past, in reading some of the literature and statements by Dobson and Cameron, You tend to wonder , are we really that bad? And it does tend to cause a depressing outlook of things. It's like reading a depressing book or a really bad story, you just can't read any further. It does demoralize GLBT people and it may cause them to give up hope that they are good people who truly deserve respect and to have happy lives.

Think of a child who is constantly bombarded with negative messages about himself, think how that would help shape his self esteem or how he might look at himself, the same applies here to GLBT people. You may feel so discouraged and beaten down that you do believe that you are essentially a bad person.. This will create despondency .

Could this be part of the aim and objectives of Cameron and Dobson... ? After all they've studied psychology...and say they are so-called experts. Could this be a part of their campaign to demoralise GLBT people until they either engage in Ex gay therapy to try to change or just become so despondent that they give up on life completely ( Think about the number of suicides among GLBT youth)


Sometimes "Psychology"
can be bad for your mental health. I had read an interesting article about psychology;even advertisers are known to use it to their benefit to reach families to get them to buy their products...

[ladyinred]

We have heard of the reports of battered women, who were emotionally and verbally and mentally abused. And shouldn't this apply to anyone who has been treated in such a way? Many have reported that their husbands found fault with everything they did and nothing they could do was right.. Now think about this for a moment? Aren't GLBT people often portrayed by the religious right in much the same way, or even much worse?

[ladyinred]

Perhaps it is safe to say that GLBT people shouldn't look outside themselves to others for affirmation or validation of self worth and define themselves and their own goodness. For example Pat Robertson and James Dobson do not define GLBT people ,they only define them according to their own values and belief systems and project that on to GLBT people.

[ladyinred]

Are belief and value systems absolute and fixed, no, the more accurate idea here is that they are variable..Take for example the widely held view earlier in the twentieth century and even earlier to the founding of our country the wide spread belief that slavery was acceptable as an institution..and also the belief that blacks needed to be segregated from the whites(I am not undermining the fact that racism still exists today) Things pretty much changed over the years and slavery as we knew it was pretty much abolished.
Why do we have different denominations in the Christian faith? Why do we have people who are supportive of the rights of GLBT'S and others against it?
Something to ponder.